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Depression/Anxiety- Drugs to help? What do you think?

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Depression/Anxiety- Drughs to help what do you think?

Posted by
jason on August 01, 2003 at 10:14:14:

I haven been goign to see a psycologist cause I knew somethign is wrong with the way I react to situations and the way I go about life when it comes to relationships.

I kind of figured out myself that I have an anxiety problem. I get nervous and anxious about everyhting from playing backetball to ceartain social situations. When I got sick with prostatitis (or whatever it is) I got really nervous about it. I wondered what it was and if it could be some horriable other deseise and I basically shut down for a solid week. I could nto do much of anyhting the worry levle was so high.

THen recently my girlfriend has left me raising the level even higher. The anxiety goes further back into my past but I don;t knwo how far or where it comes from. However ever since I got the prostatitis I have become depressed. DOn't enjoy much anymore and don't feel like doign anyhitng. I see what would be good for me to do and what is healthy but I just don't want to do it. I feel like I can't get over the hump and I am just sad all the time.

Psycologist thinks it is a classic sign of depression and some anxiety dissorder. He told me that he felt going on somehting like Zoloft would be a good idea and he wants me to go talk to a doctor and get on it. He said it is not the solution but will help me out so that I can continue to talk to him and figure out what the solution is.

Should I go on these drugs or not? I am not scared to and I probably think I should. But I want to hear what you guys have to say. Dr. Stoll that includes your opinion.



Re: Depression/Anxiety- Drughs to help what do you think?

Posted by Flower on August 01, 2003 at 10:43:02:

In Reply to: Depression/Anxiety- Drughs to help what do you think? posted by jason on August 01, 2003 at 10:14:14:

Unless you are suicidal, Jason, I wouldnt go on the drugs.

Why dont you try and get to the root cause of these problems? Taking drugs is just a band aid type solution. I can see it being useful in certain situations. A relative of mine is suffering with postnatal depression, suicidal, and so she has to go on it for now. She is doing better, but your depression seems treatable, with therapy. You probably do have an anxiety problem.

Happygal has some great ideas for therapy ttechniques. You could go and see a pyschologist, but there are other techniques that are more interactive.
Post to her directly, and see if she can come up with something. So unless you are severely depressed, drugs are the easy way out, but in the long term solve nothing. Time to get int touch with your inner self, and heal your issues. Maybe your ex has done you a favour, in bringing your issues to the forefront, and now its time to heal them, and become strong in yourself.
Count yourself very fortunate you have so many people here giving you great advice, and that you can vent like this, and get different opinions. HOw blessed are you?! :)

Follow Ups:


Re: Depression/Anxiety- Drughs to help what do you think?

Posted by peterb on August 01, 2003 at 11:07:06:

In Reply to: Depression/Anxiety- Drughs to help what do you think? posted by jason on August 01, 2003 at 10:14:14:

i don't think i would refer to drugs as the "easy way out," because they won't lead to the way out for these issues. What about SR, evaluation of your nutritional status, and exercise? and check the archives for depression/anxiety.

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Re: Depression/Anxiety- Drughs to help what do you think?

Posted by Tired on August 01, 2003 at 11:13:53:

In Reply to: Depression/Anxiety- Drughs to help what do you think? posted by jason on August 01, 2003 at 10:14:14:

I think you'll have to figure this one out on your own based on your situation. Most of the advice you'll get here will be similar to Flower's. Zoloft IS a band-aid approach, etc., but it doesn't mean it might not be helpful. I've been on it for about 10 days now and it's too early to tell if it's helping. I tried the wellness approach for 3 1/2 years (I've been sick for 4 years). Meditating twice a day, exercising, and whole foods has helped me a lot. I'm a much calmer person and less anxious. However, I am still pretty sick, and there is no explanation for this other than emotional baggage. I don't think of myself as depressed, except for being depressed about always being sick. In fact, whenever I have a day where I am feeling well I'm always in a great happy mood. But I do continue to have some noticeable anxiety and I have awful setbacks with my health. I feel like I'm in a viscious cycle: I slowly start to get better and then have a setback and wind up where I started.

So I couldn't take this cycle anymore and my holistic doc suggested a low dose of zoloft and counseling due to what he suspected was depression. He started me on a low dose of 25 mg, and I hated it. I was extremely spacey and couldn't sleep. He reduced the dose to 12.5 mg and I've been fine on that except for a little trouble falling asleep at night. I realize that this isn't the answer. I think the counseling and continued wellness is the answer; however, I'm taking the zoloft hoping it will give me a chance to break this viscious cycle and then maybe I can start to get to the real cause through counseling and wellness. In some ways it is, ironically, a depressing approach because I feel like I'm putting my life and progress on hold for as long as I'm taking the zoloft. However, along with the counseling, if it breaks this viscious 4-year long cycle, then it will have been worth it for me.

I'm hoping to get off the zoloft in a month or two, if all goes well. So I'm not suicidal or extremely depressed, but I have been stuck for a long time without any progress. I think if the zoloft helps to settle down my insides and get me through the days with less anxiety, eventually it will be easier to get back on track naturally. So I think if you're extremely depressed or anxious, or if you've been stuck like me, maybe give it a try and see if it helps. But if you haven't given wellness much of a chance, it might be better to try that for awhile first.

Anyway, hope this helps; I'm sure Dr. Stoll and most others that wellness has worked for will disagree with what I've said.

Follow Ups:


Re: Depression/Anxiety- Drughs to help what do you think?

Posted by jason on August 01, 2003 at 11:37:01:

In Reply to: Depression/Anxiety- Drughs to help what do you think? posted by jason on August 01, 2003 at 10:14:14:

I do beleive I am blessed ain the fact that I can come on here and vent and get lots of feedback. But you know everybody has a different opinion and solution. But what is right for you my not be rigth for the next person. However genearl things are normall common.

I have only been depressed for a few months I would say but the anxiety goes further back. I do nto even know how far but I think it has been gettign worse.

I had heart murmers for a while over a year ago and after a full check up everyhting was fine. The GP doctor then diagnosed me with Panic Dissorder and suggested Zoloft but said it was my option. I said no to the drugs and said I am just goign to ignore the murmers. After a month or 2 they went away.

However I think the doctor was right and the anxiety was still there. Now it has begun to manifest itself in different ways and it is driving me crazy and makign me depressed along with the other stuff happining in my life.

I understand it is a band-aid. The psycologist would agree with that too. I think he is just suggesting it cause it will help me to do better when it comes to therapy and figuring out what the problem is and how to solve it.

I am seriously contemplating it. HE suggested a low dose and to only do it for about 3 months.



Hey you - it's michele

Posted by
Michele on August 01, 2003 at 14:05:04:

In Reply to: Re: Depression/Anxiety- Drughs to help what do you think? posted by jason on August 01, 2003 at 11:37:01:

So - after three months, then what? Of course he's going to start with a low dose - because he's going to check and see how that effects you! And if you don't complain MUCH he'll probably increase the dose. I would not do it - but you know how I am LOL Write me later if you feel up to it.

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Re: Depression/Anxiety- Drughs to help what do you think?

Posted by Maz on August 01, 2003 at 16:33:14:

In Reply to: Depression/Anxiety- Drughs to help what do you think? posted by jason on August 01, 2003 at 10:14:14:

I had anxiety attacks for 5 years and would not go to the doc for drugs. I figured it out for myself with the help of Dr Stoll and this site. SR is the right way to go and I have magnesium too. You have to change your attitude and your response to stress. It is a hard mountain to climb but you can do it without drugs. I very nearly went to the doc once but didn't. There are other ways. I am over it now but still have to watch it. Cut out alcohol if you take it. It causes anxiety and depression, although it may give you a short lift. Not suggesting you do use it but some do to help them over anxiety for a quick relaxation. It works for a short time but then you start going down.

Also dont drink coffee or tea.

SR is the biggest help.



Hi Maz - I forgot about Mag!

Posted by
Michele on August 01, 2003 at 18:31:11:

In Reply to: Re: Depression/Anxiety- Drughs to help what do you think? posted by Maz on August 01, 2003 at 16:33:14:

Magnesium is great - it changes my entire mood - I must really be zapped in it during pms..but it keeps me very even during that time. Jason should try a cal/mag or just a mag? What do you suggest? 1 in 2 women get osteo, but my md (holistic man) told me 1 in 4 men do! I was shocked!

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Re: Depression/Anxiety- Drughs to help what do you think?

Posted by Been There on August 02, 2003 at 05:31:17:

In Reply to: Depression/Anxiety- Drughs to help what do you think? posted by jason on August 01, 2003 at 10:14:14:

Hi, Jason. After many years of struggling with anxiety and depression and thinking if I could just get a handle on it. But, finally decided to see family dr. about it--like he said for example if eyes are bad you can strain and strain and try to get a handle on it but to no avail. I began on 75 mg. Effexor XR and increased to l50 and in a short period of time I can not tell you the difference I feel inside as far as the anxiety goes-where I used to feel alot of times very anxious I don't ever feel that kind of anxiety anymore, never more than minor. It hasn't made all my problems go away, we still have to deal with life situations, but now I'm not dealing with that uncontrolable and horable anxiety I used to feel inside. I don't know if it is a chemical imbalance or what but I know I had no control over it as hard as I tried. I am a Christian person and I feel I most have experienced that for some reason-can't say what yet. I don't know if I'll always have to take the medicine but unless another better answer comes along I won't hesitate to take it because of the peace I now feel in my insides. I have things to learn and not saying I have all the answers but I believe as we put God first in our lives His plan unfolds and we become wiser and see more of the whys. I feel no effects from this medication other than the loss of anxiety. Of course nutrition and a healthy lifestyle contribute to our well-being. I think we individually have to seek God's answer to our problem because His way for one to handle the problem may in some ways be different for the next person. And, I think medicine can have it's place. And, if God chooses He can take care of it Himself without medicine. But, as I said I love the Lord and prayed many times for Him to heal me, thought having to go to the dr. and take the medicine could be embarassing-people would think I was crazy, but God has a plan for me and it wasn't the way I thought He should handle it. My prayer for you it that you will put your life in God's hand and trust Him with it. Seek Him for what He would have you do and go with it. God Bless You. Let Us Hear How You Do!!!!!!!!



Re: Depression/Anxiety- Drughs to help what do you think?

Posted by Walt Stoll on August 02, 2003 at 07:38:55:

In Reply to: Depression/Anxiety- Drughs to help what do you think? posted by jason on August 01, 2003 at 10:14:14:

Hi,Jason.

Everyone had good advice for you. I see no problem with taking the Zoloft for a few weeks to see if it helps--SO LONG AS YOU HAVE A REALISTIC IDEA OF THE PLACE THIS DRUG HAS IN YOUR LONG TERM PLAN.

Walt



Re: Depression/Anxiety- Drughs to help what do you think?

Posted by Connie on August 02, 2003 at 09:35:56:

In Reply to: Depression/Anxiety- Drughs to help what do you think? posted by jason on August 01, 2003 at 10:14:14:

Hi, onaly if you feel like you can't live with your depression, Drugs will only mask the condition and it will be hard to get off them. Also they all have side affects. I would try exerising as much as I could start slow and then build up like walking. Before I would try medication.

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Re: Depression/Anxiety- Drughs to help what do you think?--my 2 cents...

Posted by bing on August 02, 2003 at 17:39:12:

In Reply to: Depression/Anxiety- Drughs to help what do you think? posted by jason on August 01, 2003 at 10:14:14:

I can understand how you feel. My only suggestion is exercise. If you start a rigorious exercise program (such as running, swimming, brisk walking, rock-climing, etc.) and stick to it, everyday, for about an hour, the depressive bouts will soon disappear quickly.

Taking good care of the body and regaining health can make one's mind much more resilient to depression (and other mental problems), I believe.



Re: Depression/Anxiety- Drughs to help what do you think?--my 2 cents...

Posted by Tired on August 02, 2003 at 22:18:43:

In Reply to: Re: Depression/Anxiety- Drughs to help what do you think?--my 2 cents... posted by bing on August 02, 2003 at 17:39:12:

If only it were that easy. Was it for you? Did you have severe depression that lifted easily by exercise? I'd be amazed if you did, based on what I've been learning lately. Perhaps exercise can help with "depression bouts", but not with anxiety/depression that's been building up from a person's childhood.

This is new to me, too, and I'm learning a lot. I started taking a very low dose of zoloft about 2 weeks ago and also started working with a counselor. I'm also reading a book that's helping me understand all of this as well, and it's made me realize that what Jason is talking about and what I've been dealing with are very similar. It's not a "bout with depression," but an entire personality disorder due to some kind of toxic upbringing. I've been practicing all three legs of the wellness stool for years, but suddenly within the last two weeks, thanks to the readings, the counseling, AND by taking this drug, I've opened my eyes to a whole other aspect of my illness and what's been keeping me sick.

If you didn't have this kind of toxic upbringing, then there is no way you're going to be able to understand how a drug MIGHT be able to help break the thinking patterns that have led to illness, and provide a more stable place for which wellness to work.

Depression/anxiety comes from an inner child issue which requires some serious work to overcome. Here is a quote from the book that opened my eyes wide, regarding a parent that is not all he could be:

"The abused inmates of a concentration camp...are inwardly free to hate their persecutors. The opportunity to experience their feelings - even to share them with other inmates, prevents them from having to surrender their self...This opportunity does not exist for children. They must not hate their father...they cannot hate him...They fear losing his love as a result...Thus children, unlike concentration camp inmates, are confronted by a tormentor they love."

As I get further into this subject, it becomes amazingly apparent why I got sick, why I've stayed sick, why wellness alone hasn't worked, and that this board would be better if this kind of counseling was suggested more often and if the minds of the people offering help were not so locked into an anti-drug approach for some problems.



Re: A Broken Heart--my 2 cents...

Posted by Flower on August 02, 2003 at 22:59:56:

In Reply to: Re: Depression/Anxiety- Drughs to help what do you think?--my 2 cents... posted by Tired on August 02, 2003 at 22:18:43:

if the depression stems from a toxic childhood, how is taking a pill going to work towards solving that. I am all for the counselling idea, i justdont see how the drug side of it should be used because of an abusive chidhood thats taking its toll now? If you have a chemical imbalance, then taking a pill would help. Thats why I kinda think that, although jason now has brought up other issues besides his breakup, I think the main thing he is suffering from is a broken heart, IMHO.



Re: Depression/Anxiety- Drughs to help what do you think?--my 2 cents...

Posted by Flower on August 02, 2003 at 23:03:03:

In Reply to: Re: Depression/Anxiety- Drughs to help what do you think?--my 2 cents... posted by Tired on August 02, 2003 at 22:18:43:

"The abused inmates of a concentration camp...are inwardly free to hate their persecutors. The opportunity to experience their feelings - even to share them with other inmates, prevents them from having to surrender their self...This opportunity does not exist for children. They must not hate their father...they cannot hate him...They fear losing his love as a result...Thus children, unlike concentration camp inmates, are confronted by a tormentor they love."

So then if children arent allowed to hate their abusive parent, maybe what these children do is turn that hatred inwards on themselves, which in itself can cause severe depression later in life.

Thanks for sharing that. Its quite enlightening how powerful are emotions are on every aspect of our life.

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Re: Depression/Anxiety- for Tired...

Posted by Nutmeg on August 02, 2003 at 23:26:56:

In Reply to: Re: Depression/Anxiety- Drughs to help what do you think?--my 2 cents... posted by Tired on August 02, 2003 at 22:18:43:

That's a powerful quote you shared. May I ask what book that's from?

I'm so glad you have found some of your own connections between emotions and illness, some good stuff to read, and a counselor that are all working together to help you heal and move forward. It's pretty awesome when you see the light!

You are so right about this being a personality disorder, rather than just a case of being a little down in the dumps. Try not to think of it as a fault, though, but rather as a new awareness about the past that's come into your life to give you an opportunity to learn to limit yourself less in the future.

Bravo for you acknowledging the past and for taking these steps to learn from it and grow!

Wishing you the best,
Nutmeg



Re: Depression/Anxiety- for Tired...

Posted by Tired on August 03, 2003 at 10:00:09:

In Reply to: Re: Depression/Anxiety- for Tired... posted by Nutmeg on August 02, 2003 at 23:26:56:

Hi Nutmeg,

Yes, it is awesome to "see the light." Things are starting to make sense plus I'm starting to feel that wounded child inside me that never got the chance to heal and grow. I'm still feeling that heavy burden, but I think I'm beginning to see and define the edges of that emotional boulder that's been sitting in my gut my entire life, holding me back (or down) in everything I've ever tried to do, and now as it takes form and I begin to understand it, I feel a little lighter and have some hope that I can eliminate those limitations. I recognize (or am beginning to) that it's not a fault at all. I always used to see the need for counseling as something some people needed, but that I was strong enough to figure things out on my own. I attached a stigma to the idea of needing counseling. Now it is amazing to me how much I needed this and wish I had done it years ago.

That quote really opened my eyes, as a part of me was feeling weak or dumb for needing counseling to get well when so many people have gone through horrors much worse than anything I experienced without getting ill, but now I can see that when a child isn't allowed to develop its own "self" there's not much chance for becoming a whole, healthy adult.

The book I'm reading is called Home Coming, Reclaiming and Championing Your Inner Child, by John Bradshaw. However, he didn't write that quote. He was quoting someone else's book called For Your Own Good by Alice Miller.

Here's to that new awareness...



Re: A Broken Heart--my 2 cents...

Posted by Tired on August 03, 2003 at 10:13:04:

In Reply to: Re: A Broken Heart--my 2 cents... posted by Flower on August 02, 2003 at 22:59:56:

Jason will have to figure out for himself whether the pill is necessary. I can only speak for myself. Maybe the counseling alone would be enough without the drug, but I doubt it (or at least I doubt the progress I'm making would come as quickly). I've been practicing wellness for more than 3 years without relief and I was stuck. This pill does not solve a toxic childhood. It's a short term bandaid to allow me a chance to get to the real cause. It feels like it is opening a door, or showing me that there is a door, and once I'm able to walk through it I'll be able to eliminate the drug and get to the real work that needs to be done to heal. I don't know if you can understand this without being in my shoes. Let me just say that when anxiety/depression is in the way, counseling, wellness approaches, reading, etc., all seem to be nothing more than beating your head against a wall because you can't get in the right place to overcome the anxiety/depression that is in the way and preventing healing. The drug, for me, seems to be putting me in the right place. It's getting the anxiety out of the way for awhile, giving me some peace, and allowing me the luxury to learn what I need to learn. I'm hoping to stop taking it in a month or two.



Re: Depression/Anxiety- Drughs to help what do you think?--my 2 cents...

Posted by bing on August 03, 2003 at 10:36:55:

In Reply to: Re: Depression/Anxiety- Drughs to help what do you think?--my 2 cents... posted by Tired on August 02, 2003 at 22:18:43:

Yes, I suggested exercise to Jason for his depressive bouts, which was exacerbated by his recent relationship issues. I don't remember him mentioned any childhood problems or issues.



Re: Depression/Anxiety- for Tired...

Posted by anonymous on August 03, 2003 at 10:38:33:

In Reply to: Re: Depression/Anxiety- for Tired... posted by Tired on August 03, 2003 at 10:00:09:

i found it very heavy going that book by bradshaw, and not very straight forward, didnt understand a lot of it so I gave up on it. I know inner child work is powerful th. my last ssession with my previous therapits proved that. but its also extremely confronting to see how much damage has been done from childhood, and how parents dont realize how much they affect their children's lives. my therapist told me that the inner child directly affects how one treats their body. i kind of wonder if the damage that was done earlyier in chilhood, can ever be healed completely, or do we continue to walk around as wounded adults. on the outside, i seem fine, and even to myself, most of the time, i feel ok, but below the surface at certain times, there is a lot of fear there, childhood fear, because it feelslike a scared child feeling.
i think for all i have been through from my childhood, i have coped/adjusted pretty darn wel as an adult. my other family memebers often comment that its amazing we didnt end up as drug addicts or alcoholics because of what we went through during our ch ildhood. my caregiver was just like you described in that paragraph. a tormentor - no better description. but it has messed me up somewhat. i have suffered with depression, and have faced the possibility of going on drugs for the depression, but decided against it. i am much better now, through having dealt with some ofthe issues that were causeing so much inward anger. depression is anger turned within, and as children if we werent allowed to feel these negative emotions, they turned inward.



Re: Depression/Anxiety- Drughs to help what do you think?--my 2 cents...

Posted by Tired on August 03, 2003 at 10:59:05:

In Reply to: Re: Depression/Anxiety- Drughs to help what do you think?--my 2 cents... posted by bing on August 03, 2003 at 10:36:55:

He's mentioned his anxiety, neediness issues in several posts, which stem from more than just his recent relationship problems. In fact, his recent relationship issues may very well have been caused by his personality, i.e., childhood, issues.



Re: Depression/Anxiety- Drughs to help what do you think?--my 2 cents...

Posted by bing on August 03, 2003 at 11:07:54:

In Reply to: Re: Depression/Anxiety- Drughs to help what do you think?--my 2 cents... posted by Tired on August 03, 2003 at 10:59:05:

First, you don't know for sure whether he has a childhood issue or not.

Second, issues or not, exercise enhances health. Always.

Third, my suggestion of exercise doesn't exclude other ways of dealing with the situation, but rather, complement all the other suggestions.



Re: Depression/Anxiety- for Tired...

Posted by Tired on August 03, 2003 at 11:11:27:

In Reply to: Re: Depression/Anxiety- for Tired... posted by anonymous on August 03, 2003 at 10:38:33:

I definitely have had a lot of anger issues, and 3 years of wellness has helped with some of that. It's too early for me to debate the best approach for dealing with it. Right now, the low dose drug approach with counseling along with continued wellness feels right. I'm surprised you found you didn't understand much of the bradshaw book, especially since the rest of your message sounds almost like it came straight from the book. I find myself identifying with almost every page. I hope and think we can all heal that wounded child. I feel and believe it, and can't accept that we will walk around forever as wounded adults. You say you are better now, and I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but your message sounds sort of depressing. Maybe I'm reading too much into it, or maybe you could use a better therapist. I've only met with mine twice, but I felt incredibly comfortable with her almost immediately. I suspect that is important if counseling is going to work.



Re: Depression/Anxiety- Drughs to help what do you think?--my 2 cents...

Posted by Tired on August 03, 2003 at 11:22:33:

In Reply to: Re: Depression/Anxiety- Drughs to help what do you think?--my 2 cents... posted by bing on August 03, 2003 at 11:07:54:

First, I've read enough of his messages over the past several weeks to feel pretty confident that he has childhood issues. I suspect you haven't read them.

Second, I've always said the wellness approach, including exercise, is important. Again, you obviuosly haven't been reading all of the threads on these issues lately.

Third, your suggestion was off the cuff, dealing with "depression bouts." I simply pointed out, based on having followed these threads, that you were not in tune with what was being discussed over the past several weeks. Your comment suggested that you had not been following this thread and were not aware of the entire history. Therefore, I think my understanding of his issues, right or wrong, is much more appropriate than what you have suggested. And finally, I think I have stated in every post that he is the one that must decide on what is right for him. Its quite obvious that exercise is an important part of any approach.



Re: Depression/Anxiety- Drughs to help what do you think?--my 2 cents...

Posted by bing on August 03, 2003 at 12:00:12:

In Reply to: Re: Depression/Anxiety- Drughs to help what do you think?--my 2 cents... posted by Tired on August 03, 2003 at 11:22:33:

If you agree that exercise is important for improving one's health, then great! That's exactly what I suggested to Jason!



Re: Depression/Anxiety- for Tired...

Posted by anonymous on August 03, 2003 at 12:04:38:

In Reply to: Re: Depression/Anxiety- for Tired... posted by Tired on August 03, 2003 at 11:11:27:

interesting. i dont feel i am depressed. i know i do have self sabotage issues . lack of self love i surmise causes that.
i do know that i have strong issues regarding safety. personal safety. and often they can be ignited for the strangest of reasons, something can trigger it, or even nothing in particular, and i can feel very unsafe in my surroundings, or with the people around me for some reason. I get this weird feeling that something could happen to me at anytime, and i literally wil get goosebumps from the fear of personal danger. it happened to me just yesterday talking to a friend.its pretty strong, and defies explanation, so i know that something deeper is going on, something triggering my subconscious. there was physical abuse as achild, and i figure thats where this strong unsafe feeeling comes from.
i have taken a break from the therapist route for now.it helped me tremendously.it also incorporated the spiritual aspect in the counselling. i have yet to find another who was as good as my previous, but i am sure when i am ready, it will happen. i do feel quite wounded attimes inside, lots of anger too,but cover it over pretty well, even fool myself, but its there, alas. what can u do? so i cope as best as i can, and sometimes act like everything is ok, and you know, that works really well. acting like everything is ok, just certain times that are provoked issues to deal with.
i think i have suffer/suffered with manic depression. i am not 100 percent sure on that. but in the past i have suffered with the highs and lows, but this past year, i rarely have suffered with it, and now experience those occasional 'depressive bouts' you mentioned, and nothing more. i can handle it and control it.
thanks for sharing. its made me think more deeply. i may just re read that book, and see if its any clearer.
what made you change your mind on using counseling to tackle your issues?



Re: Depression/Anxiety- Drughs to help what do you think?--my 2 cents...

Posted by non depressive on August 03, 2003 at 12:18:48:

In Reply to: Re: Depression/Anxiety- Drughs to help what do you think?--my 2 cents... posted by bing on August 03, 2003 at 12:00:12:

***I can understand how you feel. My only suggestion is exercise. If you start a rigorious exercise program (such as running, swimming, brisk walking, rock-climing, etc.) and stick to it, everyday, for about an hour, the depressive bouts will soon disappear quickly.***

u are backsliding, bing. u didnt just suggest an 'improvement in health' to jason , as u r now stating in your response here to "tired".
read your above statement to jason. you say, exercise for an hour everyday, and the depressive bouts will soon disappear quickly. disappear? that sounds more like a cure to me, rather than just an improvement in health, bing.



Re: Depression/Anxiety- Drughs to help what do you think?--my 2 cents...

Posted by Tired on August 03, 2003 at 12:29:19:

In Reply to: Re: Depression/Anxiety- Drughs to help what do you think?--my 2 cents... posted by bing on August 03, 2003 at 12:00:12:

What you suggested to Jason was that his "depressive bouts will soon disappear quickly" by exercising. That's a pretty definitive (dare I say arrogant) statement that implies it is all he needs to do. I was pointing out that your statement was naive when considering all that was going on.

I'm NOT calling you arrogant or naive, just that you made a statement that could be perceived that way, something we are all guilty of from time to time. This issue just happens to be close to me right now, something I am dealing with intensely, and I see Jason as being a younger version of myself and in obvious need of guidance that includes counseling, wellness, and PERHAPS, some help from a drug if necessary. Telling him his troubles will melt away if he exercises is not what he needs to hear. If you would have told him to make sure he was getting his exercise as part of a more meaninful approach, we never would have had this exchange.



Re: Depression/Anxiety- for Tired...

Posted by Tired on August 03, 2003 at 12:33:23:

In Reply to: Re: Depression/Anxiety- for Tired... posted by anonymous on August 03, 2003 at 12:04:38:

Well, that's a tough question. The counseling was suggested by a holistic doctor I've been working with. In a way, I feel as if I've probably been waiting for almost 4 years for someone to make that suggestion, in effect, forcing me to do it. I defintely had attached a stigma to counseling that kept me from doing it on my own, but when it was suggested to me, at a time when I was once again experiencing an unexplainable setback in my health, well, it just hit home.

Follow Ups:


Re: Depression/Anxiety- Drughs to help what do you think?--my 2 cents...

Posted by bing on August 03, 2003 at 12:37:33:

In Reply to: Re: Depression/Anxiety- Drughs to help what do you think?--my 2 cents... posted by bing on August 03, 2003 at 12:00:12:

heh. my mistake. should've stayed away from depressive posts...now my super ego tells me smugly: "told you so..."




Re: Depression/Anxiety- a cutting-edge, new approach!

Posted by bing on August 03, 2003 at 12:45:44:

In Reply to: Re: Depression/Anxiety- Drughs to help what do you think?--my 2 cents... posted by bing on August 03, 2003 at 12:37:33:

Ok, here is an idea that nobody has suggested so faron this bb: qi gong practice can help improve depression (and other problems of the bodymind) quite dramatically. I just read a new study (from a doctorate dissertation). Fascinating!



Re: Depression/Anxiety- a cutting-edge, new approach!

Posted by Tired on August 03, 2003 at 13:18:37:

In Reply to: Re: Depression/Anxiety- a cutting-edge, new approach! posted by bing on August 03, 2003 at 12:45:44:

I think that is an excellent suggestion. It is high on my list of things to try.

Of course, for someone suffering from anxiety/depression, they first have to overcome the anxiety of going to a class and trying something new, which is why a low dose of a drug MIGHT help give the necessary push to get oneself to the qi qong class; then, hopefully, they can give up the drug shortly thereafter.



Great book for mood/stress/depression - brain chemistry diet

Posted by Happygal on August 03, 2003 at 15:22:45:

In Reply to: Depression/Anxiety- Drughs to help what do you think? posted by jason on August 01, 2003 at 10:14:14:

Hi Everyone,

I have just started reading a book called "The Brain Chemistry Diet" by Michael Lesser, M.D. and am really impressed.

He divides people into 6 types based on brain chemistry. You can figure out the type you are, then read the recommendations for diet, supplements, etc. It helps you stabilize your mood and attain maximum well-being without using prescription drugs. I am so impressed, because he described me so well (kind of like I've been observed under a microscope) and what he says totally echos all the experimention with diet and supplements I've been doing over the last 2 years and longer.

I think this book might be especially helpful for many of you who have been on this website looking for answers. At any rate, I'd be interested to hear what any you think of it!

Highly recommended!

Best wishes,
Happygal



Re: Not all dep/anx come from child issues...my 2 cents...

Posted by
Michele on August 03, 2003 at 17:42:53:

In Reply to: Re: Depression/Anxiety- Drughs to help what do you think?--my 2 cents... posted by Tired on August 02, 2003 at 22:18:43:

Although some of that is true, it is not always the case. Brain chemistry changes over time - it's never stagnent, and emotions are handled or not handled with ease...so, the trick isn't always to look at the inner child (though some therapists love that old school stuff), I think it's far more productive to just take a look at the here and now, and work on solving problems with more positive results - short and long term. Exercise is a very valuable way to handle stress AND to help with brain chemistry changes. It not only produces viable chemicals in the body to counteract negative chemcials being released by anxiety/depression, but also gives a quick-fix far faster than a drug like Zoloft can produce! Also - Exercise when done correctly, produces no ill effects or long term problems - it's FDA approved and you don't need a prescription!



I don't agree tired, on that one.

Posted by
Michele on August 03, 2003 at 17:48:23:

In Reply to: Re: Depression/Anxiety- Drughs to help what do you think?--my 2 cents... posted by Tired on August 03, 2003 at 12:29:19:

I think the statement that it would quickly improve him [being jason] in bouts of depression is pretty on the mark. The problem is that most people who have depression don't have the motivation to exercise but popping a pill is a quick, and yet, usually non-effective and usually non-exerting avenue. The big issue with Jason isn't actually depression if you really look...it's anxiety which has caused some physical issues and some depression that he weaves in and out of, so, exercise would in fact, be that quick fix he is looking for. He'd have less depression due to the release of anxiety and increase of postive chemicals per brain chemistry, meanwhile on the longterm, be able to work on his anxiety issues. His relationship failure was due to things we may never know but one thing we do all know, is that it may have simply been "two people growing apart" and he is upset, rightly so. It also could have been that he was clingy due to his anxiety issues - in either case, the productive avenue would be to work on himself - and nothing beats diet, exercise and self reflection (sr) to bring someone to wellness.



Defense to Bing

Posted by
Michele on August 03, 2003 at 17:52:00:

In Reply to: Re: Depression/Anxiety- Drughs to help what do you think?--my 2 cents... posted by non depressive on August 03, 2003 at 12:18:48:

I think that Bing was very on the mark. Not only can it bring bouts of depression to an end, but it CAN cure.
Also, exercise is a form of meditation in some forms, and after a while, even if he [Jason] does not meditate per se, he will find the benefits of exercise to relieve stress equally rewarding in self reflection. It will give him also an energy boost that will enable him to have the inner strength to face any issues he has to face, as well as another avenue to focus upon. Exercise physically can strengthen the body to the point of building muscle, decreasing stress (one of the biggest causes of all physical issues) and yes, cure bouts of depression. I've seen people change their lives by changing their stimulations or lack of.



True but....

Posted by
Michele on August 03, 2003 at 18:07:34:

In Reply to: Re: A Broken Heart--my 2 cents... posted by Tired on August 03, 2003 at 10:13:04:

True, that anxiety can keep a hold on counseling and growth - but if the anxiety and depression is aggressively approached, no - that's not always or often the case. With therapists, often one has to realize that they are touching on a lot of topical issues sometimes over the course of more than a year, just to understand the patient or clients style of solving, style of emotions and so on. Group therapy is another avenue which is often helpful for a therapist to help a client, as it allows the therapist to really look at how the person works in a group, how the person fits themself into the mechanics of the group and if there is growth with others.
Alot of times the therapist asks a lot of questions about childhood not because they neccessarily think all issues are based there, but because it's number one, usually easier for people to talk about things from a time ago rather than more recent - and also, it does give clues (not answers) to what is going on with the person sometimes. Therapists are taught more to not take the persons verbiage to stone so to say - as perceptions can be distored, especially youth/childhood memories - but, it is how the person does percieve - so they take that and what is happening "now" and tries to make connections. It isn't always a "childhood issue" than a "childhood perception" - dealing with the perception(s) is the answer.
So, although a lot of what you state is true - there are some loose ends there as well. If the real issue is anxiety (which a lot of people don't realize they even have when they see the therapist, or the extent in which they do)then the answer is to directly work on the anxiety....it isn't always about the "Anxiety de Jour" but to show the person that there are ways to change patterns, thus when situations occur, the perceptions are not distorted and more readily handled. Oh geesh, I'm tired from writing that! LOL



Re: Defense to Bing

Posted by bing on August 03, 2003 at 19:21:34:

In Reply to: Defense to Bing posted by Michele on August 03, 2003 at 17:52:00:

Well said, Michele.

Of course, no everyone can see the incredible--almost miraculous--benefits of exercise for the bodymind...



Re: Depression/Anxiety- a cutting-edge, new approach!

Posted by bing on August 03, 2003 at 19:24:44:

In Reply to: Re: Depression/Anxiety- a cutting-edge, new approach! posted by Tired on August 03, 2003 at 13:18:37:

FYI, I teach qi gong--both the practice AND the theory behind it (in terms of western science). Let me know if you need any help.

Follow Ups:


Re: Not all dep/anx come from child issues...my 2 cents...

Posted by Tired on August 03, 2003 at 19:47:20:

In Reply to: Re: Not all dep/anx come from child issues...my 2 cents... posted by Michele on August 03, 2003 at 17:42:53:

I never said or meant to imply that it was always the case. I've said in almost every post that Jason would have to decide for himself what is the best approach for him. I've also said that wellness was important in every post, and by wellness I've assumed that most people here know that exercise is a part of the wellness approach.

The main reason I've been posting lately is because almost everyone on this board is anti-drug to an extreme. I have been one of them for the past few years. I've been exercising almost daily for 4 years, meditating twice a day, on a whole foods diet, using homeopathic remedies and various supplements, working with a holistic practitioner and a nutritionist, gone through numerous protocols (to many to mention) and still experiencing major setbacks with my health. Now I'm learning something new that feels right for me, and so I've been attempting to share it and offer a viewpoint that doesn't always go along with the usual on this board. After 4 years of being ill and stuck in a viscious cycle, being told over and over again that holistic practices were the "only way," I suddenly gave into trying zoloft, based on a holistic doc's advice, because I was extremely tired of failure. I don't like having to take a drug, but since I've been on it I have experienced something new which I have not felt in a long time: hope.

I'm also learning from this counselor and this book and it's making great sense to me, and that is all I can report: My experience. For more than 3 years I've been practicing meditation and even had it certified through biofeedback, and I have seen benefits. But the viscious cycle continued. An early mantra I used in meditation was "let it go, let it all go." I was trying to let go of the stress and anxiety that I was experiencing. Now I am beginning to realize that this mantra, even if it managed to get me to the relaxation response stage, could never work at healing what truly needed to heal, because I didn't understand what I was trying to let go of. How can you let go of something if you don't know what it is you are holding on to?

You can call the inner child work old school stuff, but it's proving to be extremely meaningful to me. Your description of "look at the here and now," frankly rings hollow and superficial. I'd be interested in learning more about what your approach is if you can describe it in more meaninful terms.



Re: I don't agree tired, on that one.

Posted by Tired on August 03, 2003 at 20:04:28:

In Reply to: I don't agree tired, on that one. posted by Michele on August 03, 2003 at 17:48:23:

I can identify with Jason a lot. I have the same problem: anxiety with some depression, "weaving in and out." But they stem from the same cause (or at least I believe they do in my case). Sometimes that cause manifests as depression, sometimes as anxiety. The fact that you seperate the two makes me question your knowledge of the subject.

Exercise helps, as I just wrote to you in another post, but I highly doubt that anyone who suffers from anxiety/depression is going to see their problems quickly and easily melt away forever by exercising alone. I don't think anxiety develops so easily that exercise alone will fix it. It's much more complicated than that, I suspect, in most cases.

Does he need to exercise? Of course. Will a wellness approach work for him alone? Who knows? It might. Maybe his case is much less severe than mine. But as I've said, I can easily identify with him based on the posts I've seen him make over the last several weeks, and I suspect the professionals that see him and are actually getting to know him have suggested a drug for a good reason. That doesn't mean they know what they are talking about and it's the right approach for him, only Jason can make that decision. I once said in an earlier post to him that if he has not been doing a wellness approach, then, in my opinion, he should try that first. Only if he is severely depressed or anxious to the point of being unable to function, or has been stuck for years as I have been, should he try the drug as an additional tool and part of a wellness approach.



Re: Defense to Bing

Posted by Tired on August 03, 2003 at 20:07:16:

In Reply to: Re: Defense to Bing posted by bing on August 03, 2003 at 19:21:34:

You're right, of course. I guess I can't see the incredible benefits of the exercises I have been doing for the past 4 years. I must be blinded by my continued illness.

Spoken like someone who has never been there...



Re: True but....

Posted by Tired on August 03, 2003 at 20:21:49:

In Reply to: True but.... posted by Michele on August 03, 2003 at 18:07:34:

I'm not sure how you can seperate the two. It seems to me that the perception of childhood may indeed by distorted, but part of the reason for that distortion IS the childhood issue. A healthy childhood, I would think, would lead to a healthy adult and a healthy perception of one's childhood.

So to me (and believe me, this is all new to me so I don't mean to sound as if I know what the hell I'm talking about), your approach to "changing patterns," sounds like a superficial approach that would fail to get to the real cause; it might help to "readily handle" an anxiety situation, but only in a bandaid way.



Re: Depression/Anxiety- Drugs to help with...

Posted by looking back on August 03, 2003 at 20:27:39:

In Reply to: Re: Depression/Anxiety- Drughs to help what do you think?--my 2 cents... posted by Tired on August 03, 2003 at 11:22:33:

Tired,

What is the childhood issue that is producing physiological affects?

You say that you have tried various "health" protocols for "anxiety/depression" but if I understand correctly, your
problem is psychological in nature,
and in any event did not and has not responded to any of the usual physical causes of depression. Have you decided to attack the problem as purely emotional
instead of attempting to fix an problem by mental & physical means? Affirmations, as you posted are only effective if you know "what you are letting go of" and
the various physical protocols are likewise of minimal value, although they are helpful from a "support" perspective. The part that rings a bit
hollow in your assessment is that you have had this emotional ailment for a long time. Long-standing problems are usually either beneficial, or else
a deeply-rooted emotional habit.

"Tired" is not the same thing as "uncomfortable." I'm not passing judgement. I have been where you are. It was simply too uncomfortable to remain there.
Likewise it was simple (but by no means "easy") to work to leave that "place." I don't think that drugs are the answer, but if they get you moving, then
use them |SPARINGLY|

You don't, among other things want to trade one problem (anxiety/depression) for another (addiction/denial).



Re: Depression/Anxiety- Drugs to help with...

Posted by Tired on August 03, 2003 at 20:50:48:

In Reply to: Re: Depression/Anxiety- Drugs to help with... posted by looking back on August 03, 2003 at 20:27:39:

I've posted all the answers to your questions over the past couple of weeks and don't want to go into all that detail. Briefly, I now believe that a rather toxic childhood led to a toxic lifestyle that gave me gerd (see my response to cheetah today about gerd). Wellness helped get rid of gerd, but not all of my health issues, all of which I think are still digestive related.

For the umpteenth time, I've practiced wellness for more than four years, and I'm using an extremely low dose of zoloft to try to break free of this viscious cycle I've been on and it appears that it MIGHT be helping. I hope to be off it in a month or two. Drugs were not the answer for you. Great.

They seem to be helping me right now, and even Dr. Stoll has said that short term use should not be a problem. I'm confident in my intelligence to not become addicted to them.

A few weeks ago I posted about emotional baggage under the name of Tired of Failure. I've kept the name Tired because I've been posting about the same subject ever since. Don't try to read into it so much.



Re: Defense to Bing

Posted by PhillyLady on August 03, 2003 at 21:05:44:

In Reply to: Re: Defense to Bing posted by Tired on August 03, 2003 at 20:07:16:

Hi Tired:

I can see the benefits of exercise, but also realize that it has its limitations. Otherwise, NO athlete would ever suffer from depression or anxiety. However, some do.

If exercising does not alleviate your symptoms, then it must be that exercising is NOT the cure for you, but merely an enhancement to your overall Wellness program.

I sense that with a qualified counselor and your strong desire to search for the "true" root cause of your problems, you can make great progress, since you seem to be able to determine what benefits you and what doesn't. I am not an expert. Just giving an opinion.

P.S. At least you don't seem to delude yourself into thinking that something is helping when you know that it isn't now, or hasn't ever.

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Re: Depression/Anxiety- Drughs to help what do you think?--my 2 cents...

Posted by
jason on August 04, 2003 at 07:13:19:

In Reply to: Re: Depression/Anxiety- Drughs to help what do you think?--my 2 cents... posted by Tired on August 02, 2003 at 22:18:43:

Hey if you want to talk to me via e-mail I would really like that. Maybe you could tell me more abotu your situation and it could help me look at myself to see if I am going through the same stuff.

But yes I think my main issues come from further back. I was never abused or anyhting like that. My paretnst were jsut fantastic. Love them more than anything and I really think they did a great job with me. So I need to figure out why I am the way I am but I do think it came from deeper in the past than say just 3 months ago.

Please e-mail me

Jason_Crandall@Hotmail.com



Re: I don't agree tired, on that one.

Posted by jason on August 04, 2003 at 07:34:00:

In Reply to: I don't agree tired, on that one. posted by Michele on August 03, 2003 at 17:48:23:

Look. I think a lot of what you have said and what you think is great stuff. I beleive that everything that you say about diet and excercise and talking to somebody- well that is all great stuff that will definitly help me out now and in the long run. All those things are good for my health in multiple ways. And Yes I want to do all of those things.

I think that I have suffered more than one (but I can't give oyu a number) of times when I was depressed. I remember one or two off the top of my head that I went throguh in college. And now I feel it again and this time it started when I got sick and found out I had somehting that was or could be chronic in nature. (Anxiet is still there cause I am not 100% that the doctors know what it is or that they can fix me).

SO Yes I do feel it is some sort of depression. I don't know how deep or how to fix it but I just know I am nto myself. And I think it got 10 times worse when I lost my GF cause that jsut made me feel totally alone with a illness that I do not understand and am scared of. SO now the one person I loved more than anyhting else is gone and I feel like crap.


I also think that this started out as anxiety. Because when I think back I see anxiety in many different situations. I just alway remember my nerves gettign the best of me and forcing me not to be able to be the normal me in many different situations. I know when I was a kid I did not have that anxiet but someblace in high school or around then I jsut remember becoming more and more anxious in different situations. And they range from dealign with groups to power figures to just goign to the court to play basketball with people that I do not know.

I think it is deeper that you guys think and even deeper than I think. I knwo somehting is wrong. And I know that I have been going through this cycle of dating and feelign like the world is over when things end. This time beign the worst cause again I feel she is "THE ONE" for me.

But I want to break that cycle and I also want to break the cycle of anxiety. Inside I am actually a pretty crazy and outgoing person that is full of things like: wackyness, craziness, funnyness, love and talkativness. This side comes out when I am around groups of people that I know and am comfortable with. But I have seen that ever since I went to college and lost that comfort level I have not been as outgoing. And new situations seem to force me to be a person who in reality I am not. That hinders me from everyhting from making friends to meeting new GF and all that.



Great book for mood/stress/depression - brain chemistry diet (Archive.)

Posted by Walt Stoll on August 04, 2003 at 07:36:54:

In Reply to: Great book for mood/stress/depression - brain chemistry diet posted by Happygal on August 03, 2003 at 15:22:45:

Thanks, Happygal.

Namaste`

Walt

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Re: Not all dep/anx come from child issues...my 2 cents...

Posted by
Michele on August 04, 2003 at 07:40:39:

In Reply to: Re: Not all dep/anx come from child issues...my 2 cents... posted by Tired on August 03, 2003 at 19:47:20:

Hi - First of all, the reason I deal with the "here and now" isn't superficial at all - it allows people to get past the stuck feeling of the past. So many people focus on their childhood, that they forget that they are not children anymore and can make educated, not emotionally based, decisions. Thus, when one begins to separate a bit, like in SR/Meditation, they can see things clearly.
I, openly admit to being wrong, in saying that the childhood route is old school - in many cases it does work - but I work with a lot of situations that require faster decision making (per abuse situations) and a lot of the people are "stuck" and I teach them to separate a bit, stand back and see their situation, and act on it from a more unemotional aspect. If then, the person begins to do this, it does help the emotional aspect in the end after all. I am probably coming across more anti-drug than I am. I just know that with side effects and so on, it should be a well-thought out decision. Too many MD's are quick to prescribe. Jason went to one person, who he did not feel comfortable with, and the man prescribed Zoloft. It may have been the right call, but since it was sudden AND that jason did not feel good with this person, made me feel he should get another opinion. He did, and luckily, though this person also promoted drugs for him, IS addressing his anxiety and addressing his needs, making him feel much more at ease. I also see that the board in general is anti-drug, and can understand that to an extent. But, almost all drugs are based I thought, on natural remedies anyway...in some way or another. Also, since I'm on that tangent, I would like to bring up that "natural" remedies are not always safer or better...poison ivy is natural, but one would hardly want to rub it on their skin?!

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Re: I don't agree tired, on that one.

Posted by
Michele on August 04, 2003 at 07:42:26:

In Reply to: Re: I don't agree tired, on that one. posted by Tired on August 03, 2003 at 20:04:28:

I agree with everything you stated - but as I just mentioned (and you didn't get to read yet) in an earlier post, he saw one man ONCE and wasn't comfortable with him...this is the man that prescribed. Now, Jason is getting more assertive in his care, found someone he feels better with and will probably make the drug a part of his wellness...

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Re: Never been there?

Posted by
Michele on August 04, 2003 at 07:50:29:

In Reply to: Re: Defense to Bing posted by Tired on August 03, 2003 at 20:07:16:

Ummm I beg to differ. I've been there! I have been there so much that I wore a heart moniter because my anxiety was SO bad that I felt I was having heart attacks. I had severe depression. Would drugs have helped? Maybe. But, I took different approaches.
I did not say that exercise cures all.... and I did not say anyone who exercises does not get anxiety - you also have to remember that with athletes, more goes into the mix. There is lifestyle! Just because one is an athlete does not mean they are into wellness! How naive! In fact, I'd beg to guess that most "athletes" we know of are in competitive nature, very public and their "athleticism" is their trademark, making it stressful as hell! Many of these "athletes" travel, have imbalanced lives and so on. You can't compare. BUT in general, I do feel that if you depend on exercise alone to solve your problems that is equally naive.
If after 4 years you are still having issues, you need to ascertain why this is happening - sometimes it's chemical, sometimes it's mindset alone. There are plenty of people who "practice" a healthy lifestyle but don't have their mind in it in the correct way, and it is detrimental. There are also people who have a great mindset and who do not practice wellness, who do not suffer from stress/anxiety. It's all very personal. But in whole, there are chemical reactions and proactions with exercise that can not be disputed.
I'd be interested to know how often, how many and how long, drugs have been a part of tireds life, and if after 4 years, if they helped. Also - side effects of the drugs can impair the growth and wellness longterm, so it isn't a suprise that exercise wouldn't make as much of a mark.
Also, I think people should also be here helping Tired, as Tired offers a lot of insight and is very open. I just would have to know what type of exercise/how often....to even begin there.



Re: Depression/Anxiety- Drugs to help with...

Posted by
Michele on August 04, 2003 at 07:59:12:

In Reply to: Re: Depression/Anxiety- Drugs to help with... posted by Tired on August 03, 2003 at 20:50:48:

Tired, It seems like you may be on the upswing then?
Just for the record, I wanted to bring up that I have had so much trauma, that when private coaching with Dr. Stoll, he could not help me but referred me to someone. He said I was the first person he could not help.
My anxiety comes out in being too sensitive to my body and always thinking the worse. I have changed that so much though, and am pretty proud of myself. A lot for me was getting rid of stress...but indoing so, I had to get rid of or "kill" things that I thought represented myself.
I have had incest, rape(s) *yes, plural, two of them, an ectopic pregancy from the first rape which then led to operations and a year of depression (deep) and recouperating...a failed marriage...being stalked 3 times(I work on-air)basically, a lot of sh-t!....general depression/anxiety, severe anxiety.... I may have benefited from zoloft or similar, but chose to not... I think it's all individual, don't you? Just like you wouldn't push someone to DO zoloft, someone shouldn't push you to not. I simply was writing in terms of Jason, and also, in support of exercise. There are plenty of people that exercise alone does help - that isn't to say that it helps ALL people to that extent. I think you sound on the upswing, and that's great. I never heard that zoloft is addicting as someone mentioned...and I don't think it puts you in denial either...In fact, I think the fact that you take it means you are very much not in denial, but looking for answers. I do however know that even short term, there are side effects - and to differ with Dr. Stoll, I don't know if I could say, "it is safe" because there has not BEEN long term studies of short term use that I can find. I think he said, "It SHOULD be safe" meaning there probably isn't much chance...but with any drug (or herb) there is always a chance... bottom line is, if the pro/con's are weighed and it helps you, then you have your answer!

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Re: A Broken Heart--my 2 cents...

Posted by Jason on August 04, 2003 at 07:59:31:

In Reply to: Re: A Broken Heart--my 2 cents... posted by Flower on August 02, 2003 at 22:59:56:

I agree. I have abroken heart. And it hurts and i is what is pushing me over the top. I agree wit hthat.

But it is the cycle that I want to change. I do nto want to be at this point ever again. I want to be halthy and be better able to deal with these situations and better yet not get into these situations.

I want to get over the anxiety that I have abotu everythign from playing basketball to going nuts when I get sick and thinking I have an illness that is goign to kille me. There is something just wrong with that.

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Re: Depression/Anxiety- Drughs to help what do you think?

Posted by Jason on August 04, 2003 at 08:02:14:

In Reply to: Re: Depression/Anxiety- Drughs to help what do you think? posted by Walt Stoll on August 02, 2003 at 07:38:55:

How long does the Zoloft take to start working? And is a 3 month period too long?



Re: Depression/Anxiety- Drughs to help what do you think?

Posted by Jason on August 04, 2003 at 08:07:26:

In Reply to: Re: Depression/Anxiety- Drughs to help what do you think? posted by Been There on August 02, 2003 at 05:31:17:

I too beleive in God and I have faith. YEt I hate to think of things in the sense that God has some pre-determined plan for us to follow and go through. I don't agree 100% with the idea of "things happen for a reason". To me that is not how I see it. Things happen cause well they happen. I don't think that there is anyhting behind that. I don't think that things are predetermined to happen in a ceartain way so that we can learn form them.

I feel that after things happen people take things from the situation and use them for future events. Lots of people then beleive that the situation happened so that they could learn what they did. And maybe they di learn somehintg. But who is to say that they learned the right thing.

Either way we learn from life experiences. But we learn from what we run into not what we are pre-determined to see and have happen to us. At least that is how I feel.

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Re: Never been there?

Posted by Tired on August 04, 2003 at 08:45:38:

In Reply to: Re: Never been there? posted by Michele on August 04, 2003 at 07:50:29:

My response was to bing, who has asserted that exercise alone would quickly help the depression melt away. I get tired of that attitude because I have gone through years of waking every day to extreme fatigue and yet forcing myself to do my morning stretches, take a walk or bicyle ride or work out on a treadmill or stair machine or lift weights, etc., day after day, doing it because I had heard a million times that exercise was the answer. Well days turned into weeks, weeks into months, and months into years. People like bing don't have a clue. Unfortunately she would have to take a walk in my shoes for a few years before she would believe it.

So I think Philly Lady makes a good point. There ARE people living a healthy lifestyle that still end up with depression or anxiety. I can remember discussions I had on another board with people that gave me a hard time because I was posting about wellness and I would get responses from people that said they were athletes that ate a whole foods diet, etc., and were still sick.

Michele, you seem as if you are challenging my posts and yet as I look at them, we tend to agree on almost everything. I am very much into wellness, but have come to believe that using a drug as a last resort might help to get me moving in the right direction, but that it is a personal decision that should be well thought out. I still may change that decision. In a couple of months I may look back at this experiment and decide it was the wrong thing to do. I've only been on the zoloft for two weeks. All I know is, that wellness alone wasn't working for me, and believe me, I've tried almost everything from the diets and protocols discussed on this board, elimination diets, mercury detox/amalgam removal, rolfing, massage, etc. I've tried enough. I haven't given up on wellness and a healthy lifestyle, and I hope to try other things like qi qong in the future, but right now I'm hoping this zoloft with the counseling will get me out of this viscious cycle, and so far the early signs are very positive.



Re: I don't agree Jason, on that one.

Posted by Flower on August 04, 2003 at 08:52:40:

In Reply to: Re: I don't agree tired, on that one. posted by jason on August 04, 2003 at 07:34:00:

Jason

I believe there is more than THE ONE person for you, or more than one soulmate, out there for you. And not just for you, but everyone. This person may feel like the ONE for you now, but as time goes by, and you change and grow as a person, you will find another that you will again believe is the ONE or your soulmate. YOu make that person THE ONE in your mind by making a commitment to them (such as marriage) There are plenty of fish in the sea! 8)



Re: Depression/Anxiety- Drughs to help what do you think?--my 2 cents...

Posted by Tired on August 04, 2003 at 08:55:29:

In Reply to: Re: Depression/Anxiety- Drughs to help what do you think?--my 2 cents... posted by jason on August 04, 2003 at 07:13:19:

Jason,

I like to keep my health discussions on this board. I spend too much time here as it is, and I like to limit the amount of time I think about these things or it starts to drive me nuts. So I prefer not to give out my email address.

Good luck with the counseling. Your counselor can help you much more than I can, and I think counseling is the answer; the drug should only be used to help us get out of these ruts. I think if a few months go by and I still feel the need to take this drug, then it hasn't worked.



Re: Depression/Anxiety- Drughs to help what do you think?--my 2 cents...

Posted by
Gladys on August 04, 2003 at 09:59:21:

In Reply to: Re: Depression/Anxiety- Drughs to help what do you think?--my 2 cents... posted by Tired on August 04, 2003 at 08:55:29:

I have chronic costochondritis in one rib cage which is so painful Iam unable to sleep. Possibly viral? Have been under stress Also have gastrointestional problems

Follow Ups:


Re: Never been there?

Posted by
Michele on August 04, 2003 at 12:26:52:

In Reply to: Re: Never been there? posted by Tired on August 04, 2003 at 08:45:38:

Hi Tired - actually, I'm not challenging them at all - it must be the way I come across on "paper" LOL
sorry! I do understand what you are saying, 100% - I feel that I've been there - if not there, then pretty darn close...and I am just bringing up that there are options other than zoloft BUT if that's what helps, that's what helps - you know?

Follow Ups:


Re: True but....

Posted by
Michele on August 04, 2003 at 12:34:19:

In Reply to: Re: True but.... posted by Tired on August 03, 2003 at 20:21:49:

Actually, there isn't a way to know exaclty what works until it's tried. I am a firm believer that there is no "one way" to tackle these issues. Some distorted perceptions from childhood could be from a chemical issue, not abuse at all. It could be from a general lack of esteem, or how one handles a problem, even at a young age. Even very very similar children with the same two parents being treated in the same way, could end up VERY different and with different perceptions - which doesn't mean abuse. Now, if there IS trauma, yes, there is some degree of chemical issue that will cause patterns and change that may not be healthy. The approach I use, I should add, I don't use EVERY time or on EVERY body. No way - that would be horrible. But in terms of abuse, when people need to step back, it can help - and isn't a band-aid. Sometimes people, even in non-abuse situations, don't really need to delve into the hows and whys of childhood issues - only to take a step back, as in meditation - and realize it's all external (yes it actually is) because the choices we make TODAY and NOW are the only things that will change for tomorrow or the next hour. So, yes, it can be helpful to delve into the past, but sometimes it's just as proactive to say, "Yes, I had an unfortunate childhood but I am learning to empower myself and not fall on patterns that I have created" and then move on. It's not a bandaid at all. To move forward, one has to get both feet out of the past, or you can't step front. You have to (which is what you are talking about to some extent) know where you've been - yet, you don't have to go over that past map over and over and understand it all. Sometimes, it just doesn't make sense. What makes sense is that you realize it wasn't healthy, and you are ready to move on. I don't think Jason has that per se...I think anxiety can come from a lot of places that are not always rooted in childhood. They may first take place in childhood, but doesn't mean they are "about" childhood.



Re: Defense to Bing

Posted by bing on August 04, 2003 at 13:19:04:

In Reply to: Re: Defense to Bing posted by Tired on August 03, 2003 at 20:07:16:

You are not me, and you don't know me, so you have no idea where I have or not have been. It's better not to make assumptions about people one doesn't know...



Re: Never been there?

Posted by bing on August 04, 2003 at 13:31:39:

In Reply to: Re: Never been there? posted by Tired on August 04, 2003 at 08:45:38:

1. What I said is rigorous exercise can make "the depressive bouts" disappear. I wasn't talking about severe, long-term, clinical, full-blown depression. Haven't you noticed that people who truely love and enjoy their exercise are usually more positive and upbeat?

2. You said "people like bing don't have a clue." hmm. How did you come to that conclusion? I see you are making assumptions about people you don't know. Better not to make that a habit.



Re: Depression/Anxiety- Drughs to help what do you think?

Posted by Walt Stoll on August 04, 2003 at 15:15:24:

In Reply to: Re: Depression/Anxiety- Drughs to help what do you think? posted by Jason on August 04, 2003 at 08:02:14:

Jason,

This is different with each person. Even your prescribing doc will not know but he is the person to ask since he has the best chance of having any idea.

Walt

Follow Ups:


Re: Never been there?

Posted by Ipso ,Facto on August 04, 2003 at 15:55:54:

In Reply to: Re: Never been there? posted by bing on August 04, 2003 at 13:31:39:

Just admit that you were wrong bing, and you won't have to defend an undefendable position.

In the case of Tired, exercise made no significant difference, and is the exception that disproves the rule.

It is unfortunate that drugs are helping far more than any of the alternative protocols, since it is something
of an affront to what is generally believed here, but Tired is looking for results, not validation of general
alternative theory.

Sorry to say bing, that you are guilty of doing the very thing you accuse tired of, which is making assumptions
about what kind of ailment Tired is suffering from, as well as the best solution for that ailment.

Exercise didn't help significantly with depression, which Tired mentions several times. I don't see that it matters
what kind of depression it is -no response is no response. It is difficult to appreciate how difficult it is to get up
off your ass to do exercise, to motivate yourself to do
*ANYTHING* when depressed. You don't sound like you've ever
been depressed for a long period of time, when it is a major accomplishment just to get out of bed in the morining.

Of course all of here reading this thread are concerned about Tired taking drugs, and more than a little uneasy
that it is working, but those are out collective fears at work. If would be unnerving to find out that maybe the
paradigm that we all mistrust so much really can help work a miracle.



Re: Defense to Bing

Posted by Tired on August 04, 2003 at 15:57:02:

In Reply to: Re: Defense to Bing posted by bing on August 04, 2003 at 13:19:04:

Your comments show you've no idea what I've been talking about. You implied that I couldn't see what the "miraculous" benefits of exercise can do for the body mind. That was an insult directed at me, and quite the assumption you made. Guess what bing, it's better not to make assumptions about people you don't know...

Now, instead of trying to save face, maybe you should drop it and move on to a topic you have more knowledge of.



Re: Never been there?

Posted by Tired on August 04, 2003 at 16:11:03:

In Reply to: Re: Never been there? posted by Ipso ,Facto on August 04, 2003 at 15:55:54:

Ipso,

You've entered my mind and stole my words before I could say them. How'd you do that?

I wouldn't be so uneasy about me using and having success with that mistrusted paradigm. I think I'm walking a fine line. The paradigm is still to be mistrusted, since many of their practioners, I'm sure, would recommend long-term use of the drug, and probably even a higher dose. I take the lowest dose they make, and then cut the pill in half and only take the half, reducing the dose even more. All I'm looking for, and hoping for, is a boost out of the mud hole, and so far it's going well. There is no doubt in my mind that any success I have is enhanced by my years of wellness practice, and continuing wellness practice. I'm convinced the real solution is the counseling and wellness approach to get off the muddy road (and keep me on the pavement). The drug is just the jack to get me unstuck. The wellness and counseling is the engine (or maybe the entire vehicle).



Re: Never been there?

Posted by Ipso ,Facto on August 04, 2003 at 16:21:40:

In Reply to: Re: Never been there? posted by Tired on August 04, 2003 at 16:11:03:

"You've entered my mind and stole my words before I could say them. How'd you do that?"

Sometimes it is easy to forget that we are more connected and alike than seperate and different from each other.

Follow Ups:


Re: True but....

Posted by Tired on August 04, 2003 at 16:28:47:

In Reply to: Re: True but.... posted by Michele on August 04, 2003 at 12:34:19:

Well I agree. I certainly don't want to get bogged down in years of counseling trying to figure out every little horrible thing that ever happened. I'm already taking those baby steps forward as I go, just need to get a better handle on that emotional boulder sitting in my stomach and start chipping away at it so that my forward steps become lighter and lighter. But I don't doubt that as I dig into the past, there are going to be some rough spots ahead.



Re: Defense to Bing

Posted by bing on August 04, 2003 at 17:29:25:

In Reply to: Re: Defense to Bing posted by Tired on August 04, 2003 at 15:57:02:

Interesting, it has never occured to me that this has anything to do with face-saving. Usually, when I realize that I made a mistake, I readily acknowledge it. I have enough self-confidence to admit my errors/mistakes, even in public. So this has nothing to do with face-saving. Maybe mis-communication.

It seems that we perceive/understand exercise differently. The ones that helped me and some of the people I know to overcome depression are NOT what you posted, i.e., stairmaster, treadmill, weightlifting, etc. Those I tried but they never worked in healing the mind/emotional side--at least not for me and some of the people I know. The kind of exercises I refer to (and I have been suggesting on this board whenever there is a chance) are the ones that combines the body, mind, spirit, earth, sun, trees, grass, birds, animale, clouds, the Schumann resonance, and what not...all into one organic whole. It is this level of exercise that I think not everyone can understand. But those who have direct experience of it will readily comprehend. So I didn't intend or imply any insult to anyone.

Sometimes I find I can only express a tiny fraction of what I have in mind and want to express, especially in bb postings. It's difficult to present the whole picture clearly without writing a book. When I suggested to Jason to start exercise, it did occure to me that he and some others may not get the whole picture of the kind of exercise I was refering to. Only people who have directly experienced it can understand it. Simply put, it's like while you are exercising, you literally feel you are one with everything around you, when you resonate with the breathing of the earth, when you directly sense the pulse of the cosmos, when tree branched become you arms and legs, when the flight of birds seems like the flight of your own thoughts, when you want to shout, sing, jump, dance, fly, float, and embrace the whole universe... It was this kind of exercise that I was talking about, that truely benefit the bodymind, and helped my depression. It's never a chore like many people perceive it but a pleasure that one look forward to every day...

I experienced all the above from doing these exercise for at least one hour a day: running, brisk walking, swimming, and bicycling. In the beginning, there was pain, and it seemed boring; but once you stick to it with enough tenacity and even stubboness, it'll become an integral part of your being and it becomes difficult to live without, like a positive addiction. But even the initial painful stage shows almost immediate results, the most prominent one being better sleep: the strenuous physical output (imagining running 6 miles everyday) make you very tired at the end of the day and thus you'll sleep better, and better sleep in turn help healing the brain, and therefore stops the vicious circle and from there gradually starts a virtuous one.

What I also noticed is that the wonderful feeling happen when I do these exercises in nature, away from powerlines, away from highways, away from noise, or any of the hubbub of modern life. So gyms, indoor swimming pools, stairmasters, treadmills etc. may not be the best choice. (Sure, I understand that as city dwellers, we are all quite limited in getting in touch with nature. But if one searches hard enough, one can find patches of nature within cities or at least close by.)

As to depression, well, I tend not to show my wounds in public (due to pride? I don't know), so I probably have never posted anything that suggests I have had depression. I like to deal with my wounds in private, through looking inward, through searching inside, through strengthening my body and then gradually let my mental/emotional side heal themselves. But that doesn't mean I never experienced depression and/or not experiencing it.

Anyway, based on my own experiences, I made that exercise suggestion to Jason. I never said to him not to try other methods. But he didn't give me that impression that he is so severely depressed that requires medical attention like drugs. If someone suffers severe depression, drugs do help. A friend of mine had some really bad depression a few years ago, to the point of suicidal. Eventually Prozac helped her, despite the awful side effect. She is fairly healthy now. But Jason's case seems a lot milder so I thought a good exercise program would be worth trying, without any negative, drug-related side-effects.



Re: Defense to Bing

Posted by Tired on August 04, 2003 at 18:49:53:

In Reply to: Re: Defense to Bing posted by bing on August 04, 2003 at 17:29:25:

Well that's a very nice and much more thought out and helpful post about exercise. I've said from the beginning that exercise is important and for Jason, if he hadn't been doing a wellness approach, then he should try that first, so I don't want anyone to think I'm pushing drugs. But there is often a holier-than-thou attitude on this site that immediately rejects any mention of prescription drugs. I have been guilty over the last few years of sharing in that attitude. But I've suffered enough without relief from various wellness approaches (which, btw, has included yoga, pilates, and something called the tibetan 5 rites - which I did everyday for more than 6 months), none of which helped me find the state of mind you've described.

So I'm trying the drug route for what I hope is a boost out of this rut. I can see how the exercises you are referring to might help someone with mild depression get out of a rut in life and get to the state you describe, but I wonder if it is possible for some people like myself that have suffered with more severe problems for such a long time, to get to that state of mind without some kind of chemical kick in the pants, whether that chemical be a natural/herbal stimulant or a synthetic drug. As much as many people here distrust the evil conventional medical paradigm, there are still thousands of people out there getting help from it for some things. And so far, I'm glad I've decided to give it a try for a short period, though I realize it is only a short term shot in the arm, which will hopefully get me to a point where these exercises can start to do for me what they have done for others.



Re: Defense to Bing

Posted by bing on August 04, 2003 at 19:51:45:

In Reply to: Re: Defense to Bing posted by Tired on August 04, 2003 at 18:49:53:

Now I'm just curious about one thing: you posted earlier that "people like bing don't have a clue." Do you still think/believe so?



Re: Great book for mood/stress/depression - brain chemistry diet

Posted by you happy gal on August 04, 2003 at 19:55:21:

In Reply to: Great book for mood/stress/depression - brain chemistry diet posted by Happygal on August 03, 2003 at 15:22:45:

Just wanted to thank you for your post about the brain diet book, I just went and bought it after reading what you said, and it looks very good!



the other side of the coin I am cautious about...

Posted by
Michele on August 04, 2003 at 20:06:46:

In Reply to: Re: True but.... posted by Tired on August 04, 2003 at 16:28:47:

is unethical therapists who spend SOOO much time on moot issues, or on issues that nothing can change -
for instance, with say, sexual abuse in a child (as an adult) yes, it was painful, yes it did x, y and z, but let's not spend 6-10 or worse, more sessions on dissecting it to death! Of course, some therapists will just keep the person in the moment that they person chooses to stay in and talk about. Although painful, talking about something way in the past is sometimes easier than talking about lesser but more recent issues. It's just as much as a "business" as MD's are...and it's damn sad.

Follow Ups:


Re: Great book for mood/stress/depression - brain chemistry diet

Posted by Happygal on August 04, 2003 at 20:29:19:

In Reply to: Re: Great book for mood/stress/depression - brain chemistry diet posted by you happy gal on August 04, 2003 at 19:55:21:

Hey you,

I'm interested in knowing if it described you very accurately. It was true for me.... others?

Best wishes,
Happygal



Re: Defense to Bing

Posted by Tired on August 04, 2003 at 21:17:04:

In Reply to: Re: Defense to Bing posted by bing on August 04, 2003 at 19:51:45:

Does it matter?

Unless you've experieced a chronic illness that didn't respond to all of the natural treatments that are preached as the only way to get healthy, and the underlying cause of your illness was due to the emotional baggage you've been carrying around all your life without realizing you were doing so, I don't see how you can understand my side of this issue.

I don't see how anyone could. If a few years ago I had responded quickly to a wellness approach, and healed using natural remedies only, I'm sure I would be guilty today of telling others that the natural approach was the only way to heal, and that taking a drug was a waste of time. Hell, I WAS guilty of it for the past 3 and a half years because I did see benefits from the wellness approach, so I kept thinking I just had to keep doing it and eventually the viscious cycle would come to an end.

Saying you don't have a clue was harsh because it was a reaction to what I saw as an attack against me. So I won't call you clueless, but I don't believe you have experienced what I have experienced healthwise (you can call that an assumption if you want, but if you had experienced what I have, then I don't believe you would have said the things you originally said).



Re: Depression/Anxiety- Drughs to help what do you think?

Posted by Barb on August 04, 2003 at 23:58:41:

In Reply to: Re: Depression/Anxiety- Drughs to help what do you think? posted by Jason on August 04, 2003 at 08:02:14:

When I used Zoloft, I felt a difference within a few days. Beware of the side effects. Also you might do some research on St. Johns Wart. I found it to help for depression. I had to go off the Zoloft due to extreme nausia.

Follow Ups:


Re: I don't agree Jason, on that one.

Posted by jason on August 05, 2003 at 06:53:04:

In Reply to: Re: I don't agree Jason, on that one. posted by Flower on August 04, 2003 at 08:52:40:

Plenty of fish huh? Well I feel like the longer I go the less the picing and who wants an old fish that nobody else wanted to catch?


I really feel like she was the one. Maybe you are right maybe there are others out there. But it took me 23 years to find her and when I did things jsut felt different. Things felt right. We were great together and went through a lot. And no matter what I do I can not get it out of my head.



Re: Depression/Anxiety- Drughs to help what do you think?

Posted by jason on August 05, 2003 at 07:04:16:

In Reply to: Depression/Anxiety- Drughs to help what do you think? posted by jason on August 01, 2003 at 10:14:14:

Well guys no need to argue about it. Different people have different ideas. And different people have different minds and different problems and different reactions. I feel it comes down to how I react and how I feel. I am in a rut and I do nto see a way out. SO I really think that trying some drugs will be helpful to me. Thsi is not jsut frome a broken heart. The anxiety and depression go back further. I guess I always knew I had anxiety but the depression is new to me...


It is not just a bout it is more long term and I need help gettign to the bottom of it. I think the drugs will help me get out of the rut and back on some sort of track. But I want to get away from the cycle that puts me in these situations. I want to be more comfortable with myself. I don't want to fear being alone constantly and spend sleepless nights worried about the future.

I figure I wil ltry the drugs. I can see what happenes. Maybe it will help me. If it does great. If not then I guess I have to try other things. All I know is I jsut don't feel right and I want to get better.

Follow Ups:


Re: I don't agree Jason, on that one.

Posted by Flower on August 05, 2003 at 08:34:51:

In Reply to: Re: I don't agree Jason, on that one. posted by jason on August 05, 2003 at 06:53:04:

"Plenty of fish huh? Well I feel like the longer I go the less the picing and who wants an old fish that nobody else wanted to catch?"

Sorry for that, jason. I was trying to lighten the situation a bit for you, as I can tell how down you seem. BUT there is a lot of fish in the sea. From what I gather you are still very young, so I am sure the pickings would be good for you, and not just old fish that nobody wanted. (thats a rather interesting way that you put that, jason. old fish? lol)

Does one ever get over true love? its so difficult. Look at poor Romeo and Juliet, who both killed themselves as they couldnt be together. That just goes to show how intense this whole love thing is. It can rip your heart out, at least it can feel that way, when you are in the midst of a broken heart. I do know the pain lessens. Totally goes away? thats another story. But it gets to a point where you can live with it, deal with it and go on with your life. TIME, sweetheart is what it takes.

What do you enjoy doing in your spare time, Jason? What do you love with a passion, and makes you feel totally alive?



Re: Defense to Bing

Posted by bing on August 05, 2003 at 11:46:06:

In Reply to: Re: Defense to Bing posted by Tired on August 04, 2003 at 21:17:04:

Yes it does. I don't like being called "clueless." I only post on topics that I have studied, researched, and/or with first-hand or second-hand experiences, and don't post on topics that I'm really clueless about.

So I'm glad to hear that you won't call me clueless anymore. As to personal experiences, well, NOBODY fully groks the experiences of others, as you have suggested...



Re: Great book for mood/stress/depression - brain chemistry diet

Posted by you happy gal on August 05, 2003 at 12:41:17:

In Reply to: Re: Great book for mood/stress/depression - brain chemistry diet posted by Happygal on August 04, 2003 at 20:29:19:

Hey HappyGal,

Yes, it did describe me fairly accurately. I picked up the book, looked at only one brain type that I thought was probably me, and after skimming that chapter, I bought the book. It'll be fun to have the book as a reference not only for myself but for others as well.

I just saw your post about the "Second Brain" up above, and it looks like you're doing a lot of reading about the brain.
I think that's great, my personal feeling is that the brain is the most important organ of the body.

There are two brain books that I have read that were absolutely wonderful. Both by Dr. Daniel G. Amen www.amenclinic.com:

Change Your Brain, Change Your Life

Healing The Hardware Of The Soul

You may have already read them. Dr. Amen takes pictures of people's brains in a method called "Spect" and he can actually determine how one's brain is functioning[both good and bad]. It's very enlightening and after reading his books and attending some of his seminars, my view of the world and others has been altered forever...it's neat stuff!

Also, I'm sure Gregory has information on the brain, from what I can see it's an interest of his as well.


Good Luck,
AnotherHappyGal




Re: I don't agree Jason, on that one.

Posted by jason on August 05, 2003 at 13:55:42:

In Reply to: Re: I don't agree Jason, on that one. posted by Flower on August 05, 2003 at 08:34:51:

I try to fill my time now with whatever I can but in the end I spend most my time thinking about all of this.

I do not have real hobbies. I like to do stuff with my car or play basketball. But they have lost their intrest to me. I still will do some of that but in the end I don't care much right now and also I do nto have much else to do. I am very pessimistic and I wish I could change that but I do nto knwo how. Nothing seems to interest me.



Re: Defense to Bing

Posted by Tired on August 05, 2003 at 14:13:49:

In Reply to: Re: Defense to Bing posted by bing on August 05, 2003 at 11:46:06:

You don't like being called clueless, well, no one does, so hopefully you've learned not to do the same, since you originally implied that I was blind to the benefits of exercise. In other words, that I didn't have a clue. If you don't understand that your words implied that, then you still have some things to learn about the English language. So we've come full circle: you implied I was clueless about exercise, I replied in kind about you not having a clue about my situation, you've now spent several posts trying to prove that my reply to you was unwarranted, and now we're back to the beginning. My head is starting to spin...



Re: Defense to Bing

Posted by bing on August 05, 2003 at 14:33:08:

In Reply to: Re: Defense to Bing posted by Tired on August 05, 2003 at 14:13:49:

Watch out, a spinning head might make you even more clueless.

And if you are Tired, perhaps you could have a rest...



Re: Defense to Bing

Posted by Tired on August 05, 2003 at 14:41:15:

In Reply to: Re: Defense to Bing posted by bing on August 05, 2003 at 14:33:08:

Just had to get in one more insult, bing?



Re: Defense to Bing

Posted by bing on August 05, 2003 at 14:46:36:

In Reply to: Re: Defense to Bing posted by Tired on August 05, 2003 at 14:41:15:

Nope. No insult intended...try playful...

Follow Ups:


Re: I don't agree Jason, on that one.

Posted by Flower on August 05, 2003 at 20:20:06:

In Reply to: Re: I don't agree Jason, on that one. posted by jason on August 05, 2003 at 13:55:42:

Gosh,Jason, you are so down. I have been there to, where you feel so stuck that you have no motivation for life, and cant see the woods for the trees.
Only one person can pull you up from this, YOU. Although others around you can give you support and help, only you can do this. Sometimes its ok to feel down, and in your case, VERY OK to feel the way you are feeling. When you are ready to move on, and have enough of feeling this way, you will. And no one should try and rush this process for you, they are not in your shoes. So easy to give advice to u looking in from the outside. But I dont know YOUR pain, can only relate from the pain I have been througn when it comes to love. And yours may be more intense, or not as. But it doesnt matter. Because it WILL get better with TIME. Thats Mother Nature's Promise.
I dont know what to say or do to help you or make you feel better. There is nothing else I can ssay to take away your pain, or comfort you. I wish I could. (sigh)

Wilted Flower



Re: I don't agree Jason, on that one.

Posted by Flower on August 05, 2003 at 20:37:42:

In Reply to: Re: I don't agree Jason, on that one. posted by jason on August 05, 2003 at 13:55:42:

'I try to fill my time now with whatever I can but in the end I spend most my time thinking about all of this.'

There is something you can try for your thoughts.
When you find yourself thinking about all this, in your mind, say the word 'cancel' or 'stop', and force yourself to think about something else. anything. your car, basketball, a job, what to eat, ANYTHING, but that, even if its just temporarily. This will help reduce the pain by not focusing on it as much. If you are continually focusing on the breakup, your thoughts will prolong your pain. Sometimes we can get into a mindset or pattern with our thoughts create a vicious cycle.

Another technique I read about in a book a while ago, was when you catch yourself having these negative thoughts, use a rubber band/elastic band and snap it lightly against your arm, as soon as you catch yourself having these thoughts. Its like it retrains the mind. I did try it when I couldnt get someone off my mind. I too was having a problem getting over a person that I was desperately in love with, and this technique did help. You dont have to really hurt yourself of course, but just lightly snap it against your arm. You wear it on your arm, and as soon as the thoughts start running, you do this.



Neither agree or disagree but...

Posted by Gregory on August 05, 2003 at 20:39:24:

In Reply to: Re: I don't agree Jason, on that one. posted by Flower on August 05, 2003 at 20:20:06:

time will heal you and it is one of those things that can't be rushed.

Even support and sympathy won't help very much. She is going to stick around in your mind for a while.

While you are waiting for that "just died" feeling to subside, I suggest avoiding those places where the two of you went to: like resturants, clubs, bookstores and movie theatres.

Find different ones to go to for now, and if you must go, go with a friend so you can create new memories for that location.

Your eyes will automatically seek and find couples everywhere you look so it is especially important to take note of all the singles that come into your field of view. There will be plenty of pain on the road you are traveling, so take care not to make it moreso.




Re: An Additional Comment to Jason

Posted by Flower on August 05, 2003 at 20:43:53:

In Reply to: Re: I don't agree Jason, on that one. posted by Flower on August 05, 2003 at 20:37:42:

Only do the above technique I posted, when you feel ready for it, Jason. Now probably isnt the right time, as you do need to grieve. Only if you find that things are becoming intolerable and the pain is dragging on and on, then try it. Its healthy to grieve. Its only when we cant let it go over time, that it creates serious problems.

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Re: Great book for mood/stress/depression - brain chemistry diet

Posted by Happygal on August 05, 2003 at 22:05:00:

In Reply to: Re: Great book for mood/stress/depression - brain chemistry diet posted by you happy gal on August 05, 2003 at 12:41:17:

Thanks, You.

Tantalizing titles! I'll look for them!

Best wishes,
Happygal

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Re: I don't agree Jason, on that one.

Posted by jason on August 06, 2003 at 06:56:15:

In Reply to: Re: I don't agree Jason, on that one. posted by Flower on August 05, 2003 at 20:37:42:

Crap I will be doing that all day.




Re: I don't agree Jason, on that one.

Posted by jason on August 06, 2003 at 07:04:19:

In Reply to: Re: I don't agree Jason, on that one. posted by Flower on August 05, 2003 at 20:20:06:

YEah. I want it to go away but I think I really feel this lack of clousure. I feel like somehting went wrong in her brain and I feel like she is nto herself.

But the fact is that no matter if that is the case of not she has still chossen to not be with me. But I hold this thought that if she could get help for herself and if she could re-think things with a clear mind that maybe, just maybe she would let that section in her heart where I live to come out again.

I know I am tryign to move on and all but I just can not seem to break away. I think about it all the time. IT drives me crazy and hinders all else that I try to do.




Re: Neither agree or disagree but...

Posted by jason on August 06, 2003 at 07:05:56:

In Reply to: Neither agree or disagree but... posted by Gregory on August 05, 2003 at 20:39:24:

I understand but I feel like I can't do anyhting or go anywhere without thinking about her. Even my apartment is full of stuff that reminds me of her. And it is stuff that I am not goign to just get rid of. I got rid of pictures and stuff like that.

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Re: I don't agree Jason, on that one.

Posted by Flowers on August 06, 2003 at 07:48:44:

In Reply to: Re: I don't agree Jason, on that one. posted by jason on August 06, 2003 at 07:04:19:

Jason

I meant to ask you this earlier. How old are you, and have you ever gone through a relationship breakup before? Its always harder when the other person does the breaking up, of course, because of having to deal with rejection/abandonment. So its like a double whammy!

I know I am tryign to move on and all but I just can not seem to break away. I think about it all the time. IT drives me crazy and hinders all else that I try to do.

Hey listen, Jason, its early days yet. dont beat yourself up because you are still grieving. Give yourself a break! :)




Re: I don't agree Jason, on that one.

Posted by Flower on August 06, 2003 at 08:14:12:

In Reply to: Re: I don't agree Jason, on that one. posted by jason on August 06, 2003 at 06:56:15:

Sorry if you thought it was crap.I certainly wouldnt want to be responsible for bruises and welts forming on your wrists. :)



Re: Depression/Anxiety- Drughs to help what do you think? how about humor?

Posted by bing on August 06, 2003 at 14:50:48:

In Reply to: Depression/Anxiety- Drughs to help what do you think? posted by jason on August 01, 2003 at 10:14:14:

Don't know if anyone has suggested this or not but here it goes:

To incoporate humor into your life as a rule, even when you are not depressed. That way, over time, you'll accumulate enough "humor cells" (NOT tumor cells :) in your body so when crisis strike, as in a broken relationship, these humor cells will allow you to see the humor, the absurdity, the bizzarness of life...

Even when you are down, watching Monte Python movies such as "The Meaning of Life," or "Life of Brian," or "MP and the Holy Grail" or any of your fave humor shows can surely make you giggle...especially when you see those half-naked guys being nailed on the cross yet still gleefully singing "alwwwwways look on the bright side of life...life is a piece of sh*t, when you look at it..." (talking about songs, don't forget their other immortal ones such as "the Galaxy song," "the sperm song," and the "penis song" :))

So, sing along with them, and always keep lots of humor in you life, and the dark clouds will disappear...



Re: Depression/Anxiety- Drughs to help what do you think? how about humor?

Posted by jason on August 07, 2003 at 06:47:09:

In Reply to: Re: Depression/Anxiety- Drughs to help what do you think? how about humor? posted by bing on August 06, 2003 at 14:50:48:

Hard to have humor at a time like this.

I have gone out an watched some funny movies and I have laughed. But in the end I am still sad



Re: I don't agree Jason, on that one.

Posted by jason on August 07, 2003 at 06:48:23:

In Reply to: Re: I don't agree Jason, on that one. posted by Flower on August 06, 2003 at 08:14:12:

It is nto crap. IT is just I have no motivation. I need to snap out of it but I think in some strange way part of me does nto want to snap out of it.

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Re: I don't agree Jason, on that one.

Posted by jason on August 07, 2003 at 06:56:01:

In Reply to: Re: I don't agree Jason, on that one. posted by Flowers on August 06, 2003 at 07:48:44:

I have had two other longer term relationships in the past. BOth were over a year and both girls broke up with me. Inbetweeen there were some shore term things but they never amounted to much.

YEs I have been hurt before. I even had a girl just start datign another guy before she really ended it with me. And yes I know how it hurts and how it goes. That is why I have been saying this time it feels and hurts so much more. I think it is due to the fact that I felt things for this girl that I have never felt before. Time seems to be makign things worse not better.

It is just messed up and it is really still messing me up.

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Re: Depression/Anxiety- Drughs to help what do you think? how about humor?

Posted by been there too on August 07, 2003 at 15:30:03:

In Reply to: Re: Depression/Anxiety- Drughs to help what do you think? how about humor? posted by jason on August 07, 2003 at 06:47:09:

Jason, it hasn't been very long since you broke up. The sadness you feel is normal. It may take months until you feel like your normal self again, and its ok. I know its a horrible feeling. You wonder if your ever going to feel good again, or how long will it take. I remember just wanting to sleep alot, and not having any motivation to get out of bed. My heart was so heavy, and it was so painful. I don't know if this would help you, but it sure helped me. I went for messages. Sometimes I would get deep muscle messages, sometimes just regular messages. It just seemed to help with the emotional pain.

I just want to encourage you, that you will see the light at the end of the tunnel again. You will have days without sadness and pain again. Somedays will be good and some will be bad.....but the bad ones will come less and less.



Re: Depression/Anxiety- Drughs to help what do you think? how about humor?

Posted by jason on August 08, 2003 at 07:14:20:

In Reply to: Re: Depression/Anxiety- Drughs to help what do you think? how about humor? posted by been there too on August 07, 2003 at 15:30:03:

Yeah I hear that. I beleive that too. But this time it feels different than any other time cause this gril meant so so so much more to me. At least that is how I feel and I wanted to be with her for the rest of my life. We talked about that and we both saw it in our future. Now I feel like that is all gone and that in some way when she talked about it to me that it was all bullshit. I don't say things like that unless I mean them and to me those are important things that don't jsut change in a week.

My point is I agree with you time is the only thing I have. But I feel like this time it is goign to take forever. This time it feels like the loss-period is goign to be so great adn long that it is goign to take me forever to feel good again. I don't even know how I am ever goign to feel complet without her again. She was a huge part of my life.

And on top of that I see this anxiety problem that I have that I need to deal with. I need to work on that and stop it along with an depression and coping issues. I need to get better and be better able to be happy with myself. Cause until I have some of those things in place i feel like I am going to go through thsi cycle again and again. But this is all goign to take time and that scares the crap out of me. I know at 24 almost 25 that I am not an old man or anyhting but I feel like I am gettign old and I want to find that person and settel down.

I desire having someone and beign together and sharing my life. I guess i feel like I am at that stage in my life and that is what I want. So it scares me to think that between her loss and the things that I have to do from myself it is goign to be this large period of time before I can even feel good enought to have fun again.

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