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Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling

Posted by R. on September 29, 2003 at 00:02:12:

Have you ever wanted to hang on to a bothersome feeling? There's something that has bothered me for a long time, and it was stirred up during a conversation with a relative today. I thought to myself, "I could probably get rid of the emotional problem with EFT." But then I realized I didn't want to let go of it. Instead, I wanted to have a reason to get angry. It felt somewhat strange that I was making a decision to keep a bothersome feeling. I wonder if there are many people who suffer with their problems because they more or less consciously choose to. You want to feel good and be happy but choose not to. Have any of you experienced something similar?



Re: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling

Posted by IMHO on September 29, 2003 at 01:58:31:

In Reply to: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling posted by R. on September 29, 2003 at 00:02:12:

I think what might be happening with you is that there is a layer of anger already sitting deep down inside you. It is most likely a result of your upbringing. So when things on the surface appear and give you cause to be angry, your lower layer tells you to keep these vehicles around so that your anger can be expressed, over and over. And anger doesn't always have to be out and out confrontation, it can be passive aggressive too.

Anyway,it's the lower, subconscious layer that you have to address. Dig into your childhood, I bet there are some feelings and experiences that you have buried, that could tell you a lot about what is happening with you right now!

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Re: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling - -

Posted by Miss Bliss on September 29, 2003 at 03:31:52:

In Reply to: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling posted by R. on September 29, 2003 at 00:02:12:

Hi R.

I can relate.
I have a similar inner situation going on. I pretty much ignore the issue, but undoubtedly a situation arises (like yours) that provokes those same feelings of insecurity/anger that I have carried around for a long time. Now, I just accept it. It is what is. And when its ready to move on, it will. No point stressing about it. I have conquered other emotional issues through healing, although this one is a toughie.

Maybe sometimes, R., FEELING THE EMOTION that is provoked, and just staying with the feeling in its entirety can help; not meaning we want to wallow in it though.

I heard about this technique somewhere how it helps to move the emotions out of your body quicker by focusing on the negative/stuck emotions and just letting them be in your body, and not trying to block them out. So in other words, DONT do ANYTHING that will make you not feel or want to try to block whatever it is you are feeling; your emotions AND the phsycial feelings/symptoms that your emotions arouse in your body. Focus on it, and also focus on where in your body you can feel the anger or the sadness, or the hurt, which part of your body is it exhibiting itself.

Dont turn on loud music to distract you, or exercise to get rid of it, just FEEL whatever it is, and allow it to be. Kind of very similar in a way to your echomagnet.
Even laying down on a bed for a short time will help you focus more on where the emotion is expressing itself in your body.

If you can do this, and stay with the feeling, it will pass rather than trying to distract yoursself from the emotion, which essentially is stuffing down your emotions till the next time/episode happens.

So say you feel anger. Your body feels all hot and bothered; anxious, or you can feel deep emotional pain in your solar plexus, or some people can be so angry, they can be blind with fury right, or sadness that is gutwrenching? Emotions are so strong they can affect the body like this. So focus on that feeling, and watch as it passes of its own accord without you forcing it to disappear; let it do so of its own volition.

I wish I could remember where I heard about focusing on the emotion, along with the physical feeling it brings to your body. Oh yeah, it was on one of the Centerpointe Cd's that they mail out. heh. Knew I could remember it~! :)

Another technique I heard about a while ago, and it actually worked was where you magnify the feeling to an exaggerated extent in your mind. I am not sure how specifically it works, but it worked really well for me.
I was upset from some incident, and kept constantly replaying the incident in my mind which kept provoking the negative emotion;which was getting me nowhere, and draining me of energy and giving me a headache. kind of like monkey mind they call it.

So anyway in my mind, I exaggerated the feelings that the event provoked within me; magnified it out of all proportion (the feeling), and to my surprise, very shortly after it stopped replaying itself (the event) in my mind, and the emotion also left real quick, and so did the physical feeling that it had produced. Sorry if I havent explained this one well,but it really worked well to help bring control back, instead of replaying a particular negative event over and over in my mind, and causing myself misery.

It seems alot of these healing techniques focus on allowing or giving permission for our feelings to just be. Instead of stuffing them down, blocking them out, or distracting our minds from them. This seems to be the main theme on healing emotions.

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Re: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling

Posted by
Michele on September 29, 2003 at 05:58:41:

In Reply to: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling posted by R. on September 29, 2003 at 00:02:12:

Sometimes hanging on to an emotion, even if you see it as negative, is quite healthy. Just because you percieve it as unhealthy doesn't mean it is so; and it could quite well be something that is fueling healthy responses in the long run for you. It's possible this is what is happening.
Another option here is that you don't see a reason to let go of this emotion, therefore, getting rid of it is almost maddening - it's better to keep it (in your mind).
Sometimes wanting to feel anger or what is percieved as negative is actually very valid - and healthy.
On another note, maybe you do need to work on more SR or emotional release techniques if this IS in fact, negative.
Just thoughts.

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Re: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling - Step Back

Posted by Gregory on September 29, 2003 at 07:22:28:

In Reply to: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling posted by R. on September 29, 2003 at 00:02:12:

InMyHumbleOpinion may have something there, R. There are many angers that you are not "allowed" to express as a kid. So they get suppressed, until a similar situation comes along where you are more free to express both that and the original anger.

I believe there is something to the notion that anger is fear turned outward. Some insecurity is usually at the root of all expressions of anger, the more virulent, the more disquieting the fear is.

Some of may be from General F.U.D.* that is coalesced into something concrete. You might consider turning off "the news" for a month or so, and see if your overall wellbeing improves.

Or for a real eye-opener, you might try looking at everything that happens here on the board as inconsequential. This is a good exercise in detachment, so you can see that you arbitrarily assign values to issues, in effect making them issues. Since you "choose" what it is that makes you angry or sad or whatever emotion you choose to express, you can just as easily choose to NOT express it as well, especially if you are aware that you are doing so.

This board is an excellent place to do so, since you can slow down the process enough to "see" what it is that upsets you and follow the reaction back to the source.

Once you can do that, you should be able to do it in real-time like when you are engaged in a conversation, and you feel your ire rising.

An example: On the The president is a retard Bush for President In 2004 thread, my biggest fear at the personal level is that my livelihood is threatened. Logically I know that my skills are in demand independent of the economy, yet at the same time the perception persists that if the economy is doing poorly (which it is) then companies that usually hire companies like mine, will forgo doing so, again, under the perception that the money isn't there to fund the projects that they need done. This is the same sort of thought the powers the stock market where perception more than reality determines what happens, and thus "creates reality."

This is not to say the economy isn't in the crapper. It is, and a it is a linkage that can be followed up to the international level if you desire. I am simply showing you my fear, which powers my posting on that thread. I'm not particularly proud of it, and "I'm working on it." L

There is of course the view, somewhat contradictory that your anger defines you and lets you know you're alive -anger being close to passion. Of course you can be happy and passionate also, but most people link anger and passion, or at least strong emotion. Maybe something sexual, but I'm not going to go there, OK? Just mentioning it is passing.



Re: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling

Posted by Happygal on September 29, 2003 at 09:00:47:

In Reply to: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling posted by R. on September 29, 2003 at 00:02:12:

Hi R.

I agree that you may have restimulated some old unrelated anger. Another possibility, which I think is more likely actually, is that you have a different issue with this person that is unresolved, and that is why you want a reason to get angry at them. It is worthy of introspection to see if you can figure it out!

Best wishes,
Happygal

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Re: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling

Posted by FW on September 29, 2003 at 10:02:12:

In Reply to: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling posted by R. on September 29, 2003 at 00:02:12:

I think it's true that sometimes we hang on to a negative emotion, even a sickness, because it can be comforting. It can be easier to stay sick than to face reality; easier to stay home in our comfort level than go out into the world to fight with the masses. I suspect that is the bottom line with what you are asking. We often bury and repress our anger because we want to be nice, instead of listening to it and letting it guide us in the direction we want to take. Of course, too many people also act out that anger, instead of listening to what it's trying to tell them.

You recently posted about the benefits of writing to heal. Being a writer, this exercise speaks to me more than it might some, but it is a great tool for exploring why you want to hold on to that anger, and to what it's trying to tell you. Maybe you're angry at that person and want to hold onto that anger because you have a right to be angry, but haven't figured out what is being repressed in yourself because of the cause of that anger.

To simplify, we can stay angry at our father because he abused us and made us into something we don't like. We have a right to be angry with him, but deep down we are also angry at ourselves for not being what we want to be. Instead of doing the hard work to change, we stay in our comfort level and hold onto the anger as an excuse for what we are. If we listened to the anger, we could figure out that it's telling us we have the power to change, and what the necessary change is.

Anyway, I'm not sure if that is of any help, but its my 2 cents worth.

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Re: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling

Posted by PhillyLady on September 29, 2003 at 10:28:08:

In Reply to: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling posted by R. on September 29, 2003 at 00:02:12:

Hi R:

I sometimes hang on to negative feelings but only when the issue bothering me hasn't been resolved, or hasn't been resolved to MY satisfaction.

Maybe you could ask yourself if the issue bothering you was resolved to your satisfaction. If it wasn't, then figure out what needs to be done so that in the end YOU will have been satisfied with the outcome. Someone else may be satisfied, but until you are also satisfied, you'll still feel anger and/or resentment.

Also, there's nothing wrong with confronting the individuals involved in your retention of those bothersome feelings. You can confront without being combative, but with diplomacy.

If you are dealing with relatives, then that is more of a challenge since they expect you to behave a certain way. Even in modern families, there is still a "pecking order". As the youngest child in my family, I am still (at my age) expected to be sweet and pleasant, and all that nonsense. I put a stop to that several years ago, even though they sometimes revert back to their old ways and attempt to tell me how to run my life. I just put them back in their places as a friendly reminder that I'm an adult now:-)

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Re: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling - Step Back

Posted by Cool on September 29, 2003 at 14:27:07:

In Reply to: Re: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling - Step Back posted by Gregory on September 29, 2003 at 07:22:28:

cool effects Gregory.....

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Re: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling--another perspective

Posted by bing on September 29, 2003 at 19:06:19:

In Reply to: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling posted by R. on September 29, 2003 at 00:02:12:

From the perspective of TCM, emotions have a physical aspect and are closely connected to different organs or body parts. So when the physical side of a particular emotion is not well, it's very difficult to get rid of the emotional problem. Sort of like being fat: in order to get rid of the extra fat, just by sheer intention in the mind won't do the job; one HAS to combine the mental intention with the physical hard work (right diet and exercise, etc.) The same thing is true with anger (and all the other negative emotions). Both TCM and my own experience tell me that when one works on the physical side of the problem correctly, the emotional, mental sides will take care of themselves as a result. I'm sure the other approaches as suggested by the others here will work also, but maybe not as easily and as effectively.



Re: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling--another perspective

Posted by FW on September 29, 2003 at 19:45:11:

In Reply to: Re: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling--another perspective posted by bing on September 29, 2003 at 19:06:19:

But it seems to me sometimes you have to get the mental aspect straightened out before you can find the willpower to do the physical work. How can one do the physical work correctly if they have no motivation to do so because of mental/emotional baggage. A fat person, for instance, knows they should do the hard work (eat better and exercise) but a mental block (usually emotional baggage) keeps them from doing so. They are filling themselves up to fulfill some emotional need. If they could make themselves do the physical work correctly, perhaps the emotional baggage would be released, but too often the emotional baggage prohibits the physical work. Once the mental block is resolved, it becomes easier for them to want to do the hard work. From my own experience, once I released some emotional baggage, I had a greater desire to live more holistically, and it became easier to do so.

Of course, a combination of techniques, I would think, would be best.



Re: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling--another perspective

Posted by agreed on September 29, 2003 at 19:48:33:

In Reply to: Re: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling--another perspective posted by FW on September 29, 2003 at 19:45:11:

How about stopping smoking? I think this, too, must be dealt with mentally prior to being able to quit.

Any suggestions/explanations using TCM?

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Re: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling--another perspective

Posted by bing on September 29, 2003 at 20:05:27:

In Reply to: Re: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling--another perspective posted by FW on September 29, 2003 at 19:45:11:

The thing is, the mental attitude should be there already for ANY change to take place, both physical and mental. I mean, one has to start with a desire to get healthy, right? This desire is the correct mental attitude, which motivates one to implement the specific measures for change. So from there on, diet and exercise is by far the easiest approach. I did say that other ways will work, but just not as easily, effectively. I'm one of those who prefer the easy way than the hard way.

Both mental block and emotional baggages are also symptoms of physical imbalance which can be easily resolved through the right diet and exercise. To get rid of the mental block and the baggages, other approaches probably will also work, but just much more slowly, and much more costly, and may or may not bring the desired results.



Re: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling--another perspective

Posted by FW on September 29, 2003 at 21:03:31:

In Reply to: Re: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling--another perspective posted by bing on September 29, 2003 at 20:05:27:

But that's the point I'm trying to make, but struggling to describe: the mental attitude should be there and maybe is there, and the desire to change is even strong, but the emotional baggage is just too heavy. And if you don't know what the emotional baggage is, you have no chance to lift it up and off your shoulders.

For instance, if one overeats and is fat because they associate food with intimacy (such as those two characters you know so well, Eric and Patty), they may want to exercise and change their lives but can't stop eating. Once they understand that they are eating for emotional reasons, and are able to overcome and release those emotional reasons through emotional therapy of some kind, then they can find the motivation to stop eating.

From my own experience, physical imbalances are due to an inappropriate lifestyle. And the lifestyle problems are due to emotional issues. From my experiences with TCM, which is with both American and Chinese practitioners, the TCM was ineffective with emotional issues even after numerous sessions. Certainly even the Chinese practioner I worked with might not have been a good one, and so perhaps a good practioner could use a technique that helps to unblock emotional baggage that I'm not familiar with. For me, what TCM can accomplish is a mystery, but I would still wonder how it could release this kind of emotional blockage without assistance from some kind of mental recognition/therapy. So for my money, the easier method is to work on the emotional issue, because I see little chance of TCM working by itself. But then again, I'm just more knowledgeable/aware of working on emotional issues than I am about tcm. I'm still a fan of TCM, and wish I could afford it more often, as I would continue to use it on a regular basis.



Re: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling--another perspective

Posted by bing on September 29, 2003 at 22:27:14:

In Reply to: Re: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling--another perspective posted by FW on September 29, 2003 at 21:03:31:

Even for Eric and Patty, it's far easier to tackle the physical side first, by starting the right kind of whole foods diet. Here is why: their overeating is chiefly a result of not getting enough nutrients their body needs. If you study each nutrient carefully, you'll see the lack of many vitamins and minerals invariably LEAD TO/CAUSE people to overeat AND store fat, and suffer a whole variety of mental, emotional, psychological, spiritual problems. Remember, the physical body always comes first. Many people like to think that it is the mental, emotional side that cause health problems but actually it's not. It's sort of like the immune system: people with stronger immunity don't catch bugs even when exposed to them, while those with a weak system not only catch them but also breed their own. The same thing is true with the mental/emotional side. Sure, to work on emotional issues would help, but it doesn't solve the problem, because you are fixing the symptom, not the cause. For example, for the same emotional trauma, say the death of a loved one, different people respond to it differently. Some grief, mourn, heal, let go, and move on. Some dwell on it for years and still can't let go. Why? Because the latter have physical imbalances that make it impossible to resolve these issues, and their over-long grief is just a symptom, not the cause. To tackle the root of the problem, the easier approach is to achieve physical health first and consequently the emotional sumptoms will disappear on its own. If the physical side is not worked on, no matter how much shrink one sees, the root cause is still there.

From what I know about TCM in this country, it's not a happy picture. I hate to burst your bubble but most of the practioners are after money. In the area of herbal medication, for instance, they prescribe those same processed concoctions to just about every patient, regardless of their symptoms. If people don't heal, they always come back. Or they switch to a different practioner. Just for the record, I have never, ever, suggested seeing a TCM practioner; but I have been suggesting everyone learn the basics of TCM on their own, because it'll provide valuable tools of health that'll benefit them for the rest of their lives.

The real benefit of TCM is food therapy--the safest, most effective method for just about every disease/ailment/imbalance, even cancer and aids. But it's very difficult to spread this word of true wisdom because it's against the grain of money/profit-making, and against our global capitalism. From a year ago since I first came to the board, I have been suggesting the book "Healing with Whole Foods" which is the closest to telling the truth about food, health, and nutrition than just about all the books on health on the market (Yes, I've studied most of them, over the period of 8+ years--more than long enough for me to get another PH.D). This book is close to 80% of telling the whole truth about health, unlike all the other health books that tell only 20-30% of truth at best. So if one absorbes the gist of this book and implement it in their life, then there is really no need for doctors--allopathic, holistic, and what else--except for ER kind of medical attention. Better yet, the approach of whole food therapy will reduce one's grocery bills at least by half. But alas, very few people even bother to give it a try. So maybe you were right in saying that sick people don't really want to heal, because they don't want to take the responsibility of taking charge of their health without any cost. After all, if they don't throw tons of money into their health issues, how else are they going to spend their money? I know it sound bizarre but modern life IS bizarre anyway...

Sometimes, I just can't understand why people don't SEE things that's so clearly spelled out in front of them, about health, about life, about happiness, about the human condition...sigh.



Re: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling--another perspective

Posted by R. on September 30, 2003 at 00:13:34:

In Reply to: Re: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling--another perspective posted by bing on September 29, 2003 at 22:27:14:

Bing, if you read some material, including case reports, about EFT (www.emofree.com), you might change your view of what comes first, mental/emotional or phisical, and how quickly one can permanently resolve long standing emotional (and even phisical) problems in a very short period of time.



Re: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling--another perspective

Posted by R. on September 30, 2003 at 00:17:51:

In Reply to: Re: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling--another perspective posted by bing on September 29, 2003 at 19:06:19:

In my case, the anger comes from a certain attitude to certain things. I have been able to eliminate emotional/mental issues, in my past, almost instantaneously by realizing something and without changing anything in my phisical body. I strongly believe that mind itself can create problems, and they can be healed by addressing the mind. Or this can be done on the energetical level, as with EFT.

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Re: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling--another perspective

Posted by FW on September 30, 2003 at 08:59:24:

In Reply to: Re: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling--another perspective posted by bing on September 29, 2003 at 22:27:14:

Although I believe there is a lot of truth in what you have said, I don't see how that could be true for everyone. For instance, if I am understanding you correctly, how can you say a child, being abused by a parent, has emotional problems due to improper nutrition? The parents may be feeding the child an improper diet, but most parents in this country feed their children improper diets and not all children have emotional problems. The root cause of the abused child's emotional issues is the parental abuse, which leads to other bad habits such as eating improperly. That child then grows up with bad dietary habits and poor nutrition from both causes: being fed improperly but also from the parental abuse. So now that abused child, as an adult, must eat properly to make up for the nutritional deficiencies, but in most cases can't stop those bad habits because they haven't dealt with the parental abuse they received as a child.

Even in the case of a child that is eating whole foods, but is being emotionally abused by its parent, that child is going to have emotional issues of some kind. They may grow up eating right, but will still be scarred from that parent's emotional abuse, which will most likely manifest itself in some way as a bad habit, such as excessive drinking, smoking, promiscuity, having sex with sheep, creating fictional characters on a holistic website, challenging bing...:-)



Re: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling--another perspective

Posted by bing on September 30, 2003 at 09:47:34:

In Reply to: Re: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling--another perspective posted by FW on September 30, 2003 at 08:59:24:

No, the root cause of child abuse from the parent is from bad diet and bad lifestyle of the parent. I can't imagine any healthy, happy, intelligent parent would ever abuse their child, period.

I see that I'm talking about this topic in a general sense, while you are focusing on individual case(s).

The sheep part made me laugh. heh. Perhaps cris should add this to her list of things those sheep of hers waiting to be culled for...



Re: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling--another perspective

Posted by bing on September 30, 2003 at 09:52:11:

In Reply to: Re: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling--another perspective posted by R. on September 30, 2003 at 00:13:34:

Sure, and there are even faster ways than that to get rid of merely the symptoms. But I'm only interested in ways that tackle the root cause of the problem.



Re: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling--another perspective

Posted by R. on September 30, 2003 at 12:38:33:

In Reply to: Re: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling--another perspective posted by bing on September 30, 2003 at 09:47:34:

No, the root cause of child abuse from the parent is from bad diet and bad lifestyle of the parent. I can't imagine any healthy, happy, intelligent parent would ever abuse their child, period.

You are talking about different things. FW was talking about the cause of the child's emotional problem, but you are talking about the reason why parents might abuse the child. In the former case, the cause is the parental abuse, not nutritional deficiencies, and in the latter it is whatever (could be being abused by their parents, nutritional deficiencies, or anything else you might think of).



Re: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling--another perspective

Posted by R. on September 30, 2003 at 12:40:39:

In Reply to: Re: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling--another perspective posted by bing on September 30, 2003 at 09:52:11:

So am I, and I think that EFT can be used to remove the root cause, not just symptoms. And how would you determine which is removed, by the way?



Re: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling--another perspective

Posted by bing on September 30, 2003 at 18:23:16:

In Reply to: Re: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling--another perspective posted by R. on September 30, 2003 at 12:38:33:

Yea, I mentioned this in my post already: FW and I were talking about different aspects of child abuse (see the second paragraph of my earlier post). I approached it as a general topic, attempting to eradicate this strange phenomenon altogether, while he was focusing on the specific case of one child. In other words, I was looking at the whole forest while he was looking at one tree. Both are valid, I think.




Re: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling--another perspective

Posted by bing on September 30, 2003 at 18:33:52:

In Reply to: Re: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling--another perspective posted by R. on September 30, 2003 at 12:40:39:

If so, then you are contradicting with your original post.

How to determine: well, if the root cause is gone, one will rarely experience anger. It's like no matter what happens, one can always find something positive, even amusing about a nasty situation. Most of the times, one just laugh it off. It's like nothing can make you angry. In the rare few cases when anger does appear, it can easily resolve itself quickly.

But if you only fix the symptoms without fixing the root cause, then you still get angry easily and have to work on it each time to get rid of that anger. But it'll keep popping up again and again. So, to me, this is the hard way.



Re: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling--another perspective

Posted by R. on September 30, 2003 at 19:00:05:

In Reply to: Re: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling--another perspective posted by bing on September 30, 2003 at 18:23:16:

Maybe both are, but in different aspects. And yours isn't useful much for those whose problems stem from certain views of the world. Thoughts do cause emotions and action, mind you.

Actually, your first reply wasn't on topic. I was talking about not feeling like eliminating the anger, not being unable to. I appreciate your input, but I realy didn't intend this thread to turn into a general discussion of problems that people might go through and how to solve the world's problems.



Re: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling--another perspective

Posted by R. on September 30, 2003 at 19:08:37:

In Reply to: Re: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling--another perspective posted by bing on September 30, 2003 at 18:33:52:

How am I contradicting my original post?

If there's a certain event a memory of which (or which reminds somebody of something that produces disturbing feelings) that bothers somebody, and some therapy permanently eliminates unpleasant feelings related with the situation in question, then I think that the root cause for this particular emotional problem has been removed.

I am relatively very difficult to disturb; however, as I've mentioned already, certain attitude to certain behaviour of people do relate to me somehow that cause me to feel unpleasant feelings. Considering that I eat relatively well, the nutritional approach seems inpractical to me. I've eaten different ways during my whole life, and certain things have always bothered me. I really don't think you can solve everyone's problems by changing the way they eat. Mind has a huge effect on one's feelings and actions. Your view seems upside down to me.



Re: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling--another perspective

Posted by bing on September 30, 2003 at 19:16:32:

In Reply to: Re: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling--another perspective posted by R. on September 30, 2003 at 19:00:05:

True; however, an interesting thread usually goes beyond the original poster's intention. I'm sure you must have noticed how sometimes a harmless little post can develop/be developed into a huge "warfare." So even though you didn't intend to solve the world's problems, *I* find it important to vary your theme by pointing out that humans don't have to repeat the same old mistake over and over again. In this case, if parents begin to realize that just by changing their unhealthy diet and lifestyle, they can clean up their lives and become healthy, and then they wouldn't have to abuse their own children to release their unhealthy emotions. As a result, children will grow up in a healthy family environment, which in turn, will nurture them into healthy adults and there starts the virtuous cycle, instead of the vicious cycle of abuse and ill health and ruined lives for generations to come. I hope ypou agree with me.



Re: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling--another perspective

Posted by bing on September 30, 2003 at 19:33:00:

In Reply to: Re: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling--another perspective posted by R. on September 30, 2003 at 19:08:37:

Yea, I agree: your view seems upside down to me, too. heh heh.

But seriously, let me repeat yet once again: I've never said or even implied that other ways don't work, or mine is the only way. What I said has been this: from what I have read in the thousands year old TCM materials, and my closely observed first-hand and second-hand experiences, what I have found is that IT IS A LOT EASIER and A LOT MORE EFFECTIVE TO ACHIEVE PHYSICAL AND EMOTIONAL HEALTH THROUGH THE RIGHT DIET (AND EXERCISE).

I have never denied the power of the mind, but it's just so much easier and faster to work on the physical side. If you can work on both at the same time, so much the better.



Re: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling--another perspective

Posted by R. on September 30, 2003 at 20:20:20:

In Reply to: Re: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling--another perspective posted by bing on September 30, 2003 at 19:33:00:

I wish I had more time right now to argue with you. So, I will give you my last argument, hoping that it will persuade you to change your position -- YOU ARE WRONG! Hopefully, someone else will pick up where I left off.

Follow Ups:


Re: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling--another perspective

Posted by R. on September 30, 2003 at 20:53:03:

In Reply to: Re: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling--another perspective posted by bing on September 30, 2003 at 19:16:32:

This is my thread, and it is copyrighted, patented, and guarded with wild, angry, poorly fed cyber dogs that will tear you apart and feast on your innards. Keep out and don't steal my thunder, Bing!

On another note, I agree with you that good nutrition is useful and will allow people to deal with stress better. However, I think you ignore situations where certain behaviors are instilled by purely thoughts. I can't afford to spend a lot of time on this, but here's a simple example. Consider a healthy parent who now learns that it is VERY dangerous for children to be outside when it's dark because some genetic scientists have developed flying and crawling monsters that come out in the dark and eat kids (they've been designed to tell kids from adults). AND… these monsters are very, very, very sneaky so that you can't see them. They only appear when a kid is without an adult in the vicinity. Now the healthy parent naturally develops a fear of darkness and transfers it to his child. The fear seems very useful. Not to have the fear would be stupid.

Both the parent and child continue eating very well and going to sleep by 9 or 10 pm. After some time, the parent learns that the monsters have been eradicated and tells the child that it's OK to play outside when dark, but the child has grown all his life with the fear of mysterious kid snatching monsters, and he feels very cautious when outside and is unable to relax. It's a simple reflex. This mechanism is there to protect us.

The story is pretty typical… if you don't take it literary. Bing, what would you feed the child to eliminate the phobia and how long would expect the healing to make practically 100% effect permanently? And how would you justify calling nutritional deficiencies the root cause of the child present phobia? And then consider that EFT, NLP, and some other techniques are known to eliminate phobia within minutes, literary… forever. It would take you longer to find certain foods and prepare one meal than it could take such a technique to get rid of the phobia.

Everything is energy, Bing, and many problems can now be addressed from that level.

if parents begin to realize that just by changing their unhealthy diet and lifestyle, they can clean up their lives and become healthy, and then they wouldn't have to abuse their own children to release their unhealthy emotions.

Many people can't make these changes because of some emotional block(s), as FW has pointed out. And some (most, I'd say) aren't even aware of harmful patterns in their behavior that negatively effect them and their children. People, as any animal, tend to act on a habit/reflex/program.

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Re: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling--another perspective

Posted by Gregory on September 30, 2003 at 23:06:24:

In Reply to: Re: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling--another perspective posted by bing on September 30, 2003 at 19:16:32:

This is America bing. It might as well be a different planet.

I don't understand how you think that your mindset and way of seeing things could possibly migrate to people my parents age for example, even if had been introduced to them at a younger age. My father I know would have taken one look at you, thought "Communist" and promptly shut his mind to anything you had to say.

My mother would have done better, except that with the amount of emotional abuse she suffered as a child, it would be problematic to lead a healthier life (which she actually managed btw) and feed her children healthy choices (which she also managed to do, and quite well. I didn't know what "candy" was until 1st grade). However it is simplistic to state that all mental abberation is caused by unhealthy eating habits. It may be a contributing factor, so I must caution you about making sweeping statements of absolutism.

If you feed healthy food to a child, and still abuse the child you will still end up with and abused child AND many of those symptoms of abuse will show up as physically problems.

This I am assured by my friends down at ACS* where I used to work. Most of the time, caregivers are not so disassociated that the take care of child physically and still abuse them emotionally, mentally and spiritually. It doesn happen, however, and invalidates your theory.

I am sure that your theory is actual practice in China, but China is, as I said, effectively another planet.

*Administration for Children's Sservices




Re: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling -R. What's Your Take On It?

Posted by Gregory on September 30, 2003 at 23:16:40:

In Reply to: Re: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling--another perspective posted by R. on September 30, 2003 at 19:00:05:

So R.,

Why do you think you like to hold onto the anger? You know you can get rid of it, but choose not to.



Re: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling -R. What's Your Take On It?

Posted by R. on October 01, 2003 at 01:12:11:

In Reply to: Re: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling -R. What's Your Take On It? posted by Gregory on September 30, 2003 at 23:16:40:

I have an idea but will describe it tomorrow because it's late now. Briefly, though, it's because I feel justified in my attidude (or view of) toward certain things, but these things seem to be connected (in my mind) to a different thing that IS really what bothers me, which I wouldn't mind getting rid of. I get angry at the wrong people, basically. Just like in the EFT case I posted several days ago.



Re: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling - For

Posted by Miss Bliss on October 01, 2003 at 06:38:44:

In Reply to: Re: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling -R. What's Your Take On It? posted by R. on October 01, 2003 at 01:12:11:

R.

I havent read your previous post on EFT, so I apologize if I am repeating something you have already mentioned. I will read it when I have a bit more time. But you must have worked on your anger issues, right?

Do you think that EFT gets to the root of personal issues, and how successful have you been in actually "curing" longstanding issues, such as your anger, using the EFT method?

**~BLISS~**



Re: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling--another perspective

Posted by bing on October 01, 2003 at 09:58:29:

In Reply to: Re: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling--another perspective posted by Gregory on September 30, 2003 at 23:06:24:

Another planet? heh heh, not so. You may think that my childhood was perfect but that's also not so.

Whenever my mother was upset (with something which had nothing to do with me), she would sometimes put me down or turn negative to me or snap at me. There were also times when my father tried to control me and succeeded (or so he believed, heh heh, but deep down where he couldn't see, I never allowed him to succeed). My father had a very hot temper, and there were at least twice during my childhood when he threatened to beat me for something so insignificant that didn't deserve that kind of reaction from him. One time, I felt so helpless, crying desperately at my mother's bed (she was bed-ridden at that time) but she was too sick to do anything about it. My father, who was standing behind me, holding an iron bar with a small hook in the end--a tool for coal burning stove--threatened to hit me with it if I didn't stop crying immediately. But I cried even louder, hoping that my desperation would arouse some pity from him. Either my cry was really pity-inducing, or my mother said something that affected him, I don't know, but he didn't really strike. Another time, he chased me through the whole neighborhood with the same iron tool in his hand. I was running in desperation, until I saw a neighbor--a nursing mother--so I ran to her as if she could protect me. And she did. There were also other instances when my parents fought with each other, and I felt sooooo helpless, crying, having no siblings to cuddle with. They also killed and ate my chicken buddy, and when I refused to eat it, my mother commented in a nasty way something like "so you think you are a saint!" Do these count as child abuse? There were a lot more cases in my community when kids were treated a lot worse by their parents, but those kids have all grown up to be fairly normal and responsible adults (come to think of it, I'm the only oddball among the friends I grew up with and end up as a stranger in a strange land). In my case, I do remember each of those unhappy scenes with vivid details--I don't think I'll ever forget them. So you see, my childhood wasn't perfect either, and it's probably just as marred as yours, or FW's, or everybody else's. But because we didn't have junk food at that time (we do now, thanks to the global marketing of Big Mac, KFC, CocoCola, and what else) these unhappy memories never really became burdens of the mind, so they remain nothing more than memories--unpleasant as they may be.



Re: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling - For

Posted by R. on October 01, 2003 at 11:43:52:

In Reply to: Re: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling - For posted by Miss Bliss on October 01, 2003 at 06:38:44:

Hi, Bliss,

My optimism about EFT is currently based on what I've read about it so far. I do believe that you can use EFT to get to root causes of issues. But it depends a lot of who uses it, as in anything, I guess.

I've worked with other issues in my past using other methods, which basically involves being aware and thinking about the problem and seeing if other behaviours would be better. I really don't have many anger issues besides this one. People know me as one who's very calm even in difficult situations in which they'd be freaking out.

Follow Ups:


Re: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling--another perspective

Posted by R. on October 01, 2003 at 11:51:51:

In Reply to: Re: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling--another perspective posted by bing on October 01, 2003 at 09:58:29:

But because we didn't have junk food at that time (we do now, thanks to the global marketing of Big Mac, KFC, CocoCola, and what else) these unhappy memories never really became burdens of the mind, so they remain nothing more than memories--unpleasant as they may be.

From my experience with Chinese, I got an impression that dealing angrily with relatives is common for Chinese. I worked with one guy who was pretty much calm among us but very angry and controlling when talking with his wife, even in our presence. And then there were your parents who didn't eat junk foods but treated you badly any way. I just fail to see the truth in your statements.

I didn't eat junk food during my childhood and grew up to be a "fairly normal and responsible adult", but I still have some emotional problem to deal with -- some attitudes I've picked up during my life.



Re: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling--another perspective

Posted by bing on October 01, 2003 at 18:41:59:

In Reply to: Re: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling--another perspective posted by R. on October 01, 2003 at 11:51:51:

Oh poor R., got fooled by those/that tricky Chinese...well, it's a cultural thing: we have a tradition of being extremely implicit with romantic expressions, and in many cases, people act the opposite of their private emotions when in public. So that guy may be madly in love with his wife but he'd never express this love before other people and instead he'd act the opposite in front of his co-workers...it's one of those inscrutable Chinese things that westerns never get. hehehe

As to junk food and child abuse, the thing is, we never considered that as abuse, therefore the "abuse" never really affected the love between children and their parents. In my case, even though I wasn't happy about those moments, I wasn't harmed in anyway by those "abuse" either. So the non-junk food diet perhaps helped after all.



Re: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling--another perspective

Posted by R. on October 01, 2003 at 22:35:24:

In Reply to: Re: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling--another perspective posted by R. on October 01, 2003 at 11:51:51:

I think you've just made your message even more difficult to accept, Bing. If what you said is true, I don't think it will work for non-Chinese. I perceive your dad's actions as those of who's imbalanced, to use your terms. I know of people who eat junk food but are loving human beings, in words and actions. You just confirmed to me once again that cultural aspects, which are parts of mental/emotional factors, have greater role that food. Here we have a whole food eating Chinese who chase her kid with an iron hook around the neighborhood and junk food eating Americans that wouldn't allow themselves this kind of insanity and who show love and care to their children. Naturally, there are exceptions to both (I hope... for the sake of Chinese).

Follow Ups:


Re: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling--another perspective

Posted by R. on October 01, 2003 at 22:36:44:

In Reply to: Re: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling--another perspective posted by bing on October 01, 2003 at 18:41:59:

Crap, my message got posted in the wrong place. Here it is...


I think you've just made your message even more difficult to accept, Bing. If what you said is true, I don't think it will work for non-Chinese. I perceive your dad's actions as those of who's imbalanced, to use your terms. I know of people who eat junk food but are loving human beings, in words and actions. You just confirmed to me once again that cultural aspects, which are parts of mental/emotional factors, have greater role that food. Here we have a whole food eating Chinese who chase her kid with an iron hook around the neighborhood and junk food eating Americans that wouldn't allow themselves this kind of insanity and who show love and care to their children. Naturally, there are exceptions to both (I hope... for the sake of Chinese).

Follow Ups:


Re: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling--another perspective

Posted by FW on October 01, 2003 at 22:46:30:

In Reply to: Re: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling--another perspective posted by bing on October 01, 2003 at 18:41:59:

hmm, maybe you ARE from another planet...:-)

It would seem that we could YELL AND SCREAM AND CALL YOU NAMES HERE ON THIS PUBLIC BOARD, but you would know that privately we didn't mean it...

Are you saying that since you didn't consider the abuse to be abuse, you were not harmed by it? And that you have no issues at all from your childhood because you didn't eat junk food?

Since no parent can be perfect, everyone has been wronged by a parent in some way. Most still grow up and manage to function as seemingly normal healthy, well-adjusted adults. And yet they still have minor issues of some kind.

Everyone has issues, that's part of being human. But some situations are more abusive than others, and lead to health problems.

Plus, and posibbly more important, one's genetic predispostion can contribute to how susceptible one is to that abuse. Some people are born with highly sensitive personalties, and are more easily harmed. Thus, a highly sensitive individual may be harmed severely by mild abuse, whereas someone else may be able to handle much harsher abuse without being psychologically affected. No doubt if that highly sensitive person is also consuming junk food, they will be even more susceptible to the abuse.



Re: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling--R. is for Rowdy!

Posted by bing on October 02, 2003 at 08:05:42:

In Reply to: Re: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling--another perspective posted by FW on October 01, 2003 at 22:46:30:

Oh boy. I can't believe I've allowed you guys (G, R., and FW!) to drag me so deep down into the childhood memory lane...ok, the following may help clarify (and/or muddle even further) this extremely complex issue a bit--from my perspective.

First, language. Humans think mostly through language. So if a concept doesn't exist in that language, the concept is virtually non-existant for the speakers of that language. While I was growing up, there was no such a term as "child abuse," therefore we weren't aware of its existance, or significance, or consequences. People simply consider it as a natural part of life, or part of growing up. Psychology, psychoanalysis, counseling, etc. were all foreign to the Chinese culture. (Curiously, in China, people had/have far less psychological, mental, and emotional problems in the general population than here in this country.) Anyway, I never considered myself as abused by my parents, and still don't. They were not perfect--I knew that; but I also know/knew that they loved me with no reservation, so that was enough. I think FW raised an interesting question: if one doesn't consider abuse as abuse, would one be harmed by it? It's a very complex issue, and I'd like to hear how others respond to this. As for now, my simple version of an answer is yes and no and it depends--on the context.:)

Second, context. In my case, understanding the whole context and understanding my parents well was the key in how I responded to their "abuse." Our family experienced the most difficult times when I was 9 and 10, when my mom had a debilitating disease and was bed-ridden at home for 2 whole years. That means my dad had to take up the different roles as the cook, the cleaner, the errand-runner, the herbal medicine preparer, my tutor, my mom's nurse, care-taker, etc. etc. And he was quite unprepared for all this, because my mom got sick almost overnight. This was the period when I got all my "abuse," so, young as I was, I could see we were having a family crisis, so to speak. Once I understood all this, it was easy for me to not take those "abuses" personally. So, if I didn't take offense in the first place, how could I dwell on it and hold grudges? There is also a cultural context: it seems the Chinese culture encourages children to be more appreciative and more understanding of their parents--a tradition that goes back at least as far as Confucius and Lao Zi.

Third, Diet. With my father's poor cooking skills, we didn't eat as healthy as we should during those 2 years--we were pretty grateful that no one starved, (and I wasn't even once late for school or miss a class,) considering the fact that he had never practiced cooking prior to that. So the compromised diet, and all the other stress in life certainly contributed to his less than perfect behavior during that time. He also smoked more in those years, which was also bad for his health, physical and emotional. Plus, he was already in his mid-sixties when all that happened (yes, my parents are more than old enough to be my grandparents). So this issue IS related to diet/nutrition and subsequently to health and behavior. In other words, parents who are not healthy are more prone to behave badly. On the other hand, perhaps because I had eaten a non-junk food diet since I was born, my relatively healthier bodymind made it possible for me to understand/comprehend the whole situation better than, say, an ADD child. Plus, I was able to run fast (physically fit), which probably helped me in that running scene I described earlier...kidding.

Fourth, evaluation of parents. To me, those negative experiences dramatically pale before the positive things I got from my parents. Imperfect as they were, they are very good people, with qualities that have influenced me most positively even to this day. So I have been extremely grateful for having them as my parents. I miss my dear old dad terribly for the last 2 1/2 years since he passed on. Now, looking back, in energetic terms, their overall good energy/qi must have made their occasional bad energy/qi harmless, even to a young mind.

To sum, despite all those "abuse" I got when I was 9 and 10, I don't think I was harmed in any way by those experiences. I do think a healthier bodymind can handle the tough side of life much better than a less than healthy one. Diet certainly is one big factor of health, so there is a connection. There are also other factors such as social, familial, cultural, historical, economic, environmental, biological, genetic, etc. that all contribute to the makeup of an individual's bodymind health. I agree that everyone has issues, but the difference is how much those issues affect/bother us. I'm not perfect, oh no, far from it; and I do have lots of issues, but I don't think my imperfection and issues has much to do with my parents--I believe it's mostly my own folly/weakness etc.

As to another planet, well, ok, maybe I'm from Venus :)



Re: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling -- Bing is for um, China

Posted by Gregory on October 02, 2003 at 09:39:28:

In Reply to: Re: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling--R. is for Rowdy! posted by bing on October 02, 2003 at 08:05:42:

You know bing, if they canonized ordinary citizens, you would be a shoe-in as .

As you so sure that if a language construct for an experience or concept doesn't exist, that one will not be made up, and right there on the spot? I rather expected that you would take the language as key to human experience and it just so happens that I have some experience in this area. In my line of work, many new concepts are "invented" daily. At the technical level there are not words to describe new programs, processes and concepts. So words to describe are made up, or borrowed from other words to mean something new.

When words fail, pictures are there to bridge the gap.

My next question is what would have happened if your father had caught you with that piece of iron rebar. Even you must know that just because a word for a concept doesn't exist, doesn't mean the concept itself doesn't exist.

Apparently the memory was strong enough for you to remember it after all these years, not fading like other childhood memories and for you to put it into some sort of context in a retroractive way by relating it to child abuse.

Lastly, I do not put any credence in that other statement of your about the Chinese show affection privately and ire publically. Not that I do not believe it done, just that the rationale for doing so sounds totally bogus.

I notice that you always strive to present your people in the best possible light, but in the process they seem less than human in that they have no faults, only virtues. I doubt this is true, as then they literally are not human, therefore this must be some sort of "optimization" on your part. This was the point I was attempting to make on another post with regard to all the positive cultural contrabutions coming to naught with regard to producing an enlightened government. The Chinese have, for example perfected the "art" of torture.

Many more people know of Chinese Water Torture and "Ming the Merciless" then TCM and QiGong if you would like a sort of off-topic study in contrasts.

The point though bing is that context or no, abuse is abuse. Rationalizations and circumstance do not make abuse OK. I see bing proctecting her parents, especially her father, just like I saw hundreds of abused children protecting their parents at ACS. It a universal impulse but it doesn't change abuse.

If you don't have lasting scars from what happened to you bing, great. You were lucky. It didn't make you less abused you understand, just lucky it didn't scar you.

With that I'll take my leave, and let FW and R. have their say.



Re: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling--R. is for Rowdy!

Posted by R. on October 02, 2003 at 18:30:00:

In Reply to: Re: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling--R. is for Rowdy! posted by bing on October 02, 2003 at 08:05:42:

an interesting question: if one doesn't consider abuse as abuse, would one be harmed by it? It's a very complex issue, and I'd like to hear how others respond to this. As for now, my simple version of an answer is yes and no and it depends--on the context.:)

If you had any animals other than those that you eat, you'd know that one can suffer consequences of abuse without being aware of the word or the concept. It's a matter of forming reflexes, which all (?) animals are capable of.

I once lived on a property with a cat. I liked to beat it on his back, and for some strange reason the cat started to avoid me. Having read your explanation, I understand now why it did it -- it must have known the concept and word of abuse or beating and probably told stories about me to its friends. What a smart cat. If its parents hadn't taught it the language, I would've had the pleasure of beating it during my whole stay there. Damn its parents! LOL. Oh, and damn its parents for feeding it bad food because if they had provided it with good nutrition, it wouldn't have developed fear of me and allowed me to beat it.

This was the period when I got all my "abuse," so, young as I was, I could see we were having a family crisis, so to speak. Once I understood all this, it was easy for me to not take those "abuses" personally.

Here you are again proving what I said – mind is a very large factor. It help or break you. Is the book "Mind as healer and mind as a slayer" about this?

I'm not perfect, oh no, far from it; and I do have lots of issues, but I don't think my imperfection and issues has much to do with my parents--I believe it's mostly my own folly/weakness etc.

Hmm… I have a question arising naturally – if issues can be quickly and permanently fixed with foods, how come you, Bing with all your knowledge of TCM, still have lots of issues?

I have another question. Suppose you meet a guy who seems very nice to you, and then he rapes you violently (maybe with his friends). Would that leave a scar in you and maybe a need to be extra cautious later on because of fear you develop? Could that memory arise when you'd meet another guy later in your life? If not, what if that happened more than once to you? Is it possible you'd develop some emotional trauma that would affect your future life? I think so. Would you say that you developed emotional scar due to nutritional deficiency? If you'd come down from your pedestal and read some of EFT material, you'd see that some very long standing issues have been resolved in people, and sometimes all it took was a few minutes or hours. Would you still say the food rout is the most effective and efficient?



Re: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling -- Bing is for um, China

Posted by bing on October 02, 2003 at 19:05:24:

In Reply to: Re: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling -- Bing is for um, China posted by Gregory on October 02, 2003 at 09:39:28:

Hey G, I really like your first line. If I were really canonized, I'd really cause a huge stir among all the "saints" in heaven.

As to issues on China, I recently told you (and Naya) in tht political thread that it's very difficult to discuss these topics here, without writing a book. I trust you have a good memory and still remember that post of mine, which explicitely stated my valid reasons.

Follow Ups:


Re: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling--R. is for Rowdy!

Posted by bing on October 02, 2003 at 19:34:43:

In Reply to: Re: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling--R. is for Rowdy! posted by R. on October 02, 2003 at 18:30:00:

1. But you forgot humans are a lot more than simple reflexes. So a healthy diet and exercise can always enhance the full capacity of the human bodymind to improve their intelligence, compassion, understanding, and ability to love.

2. If we are talking about the normal kind of "abuse" from parents, it's almost impossible to "break" a healthy bodymind. Do you know how hard it is to break a human spirit, even that of a young child, as long as the child is healthy? But for those with ill health, they often break themselves. Think along the lines of our immune system.

3. I'm surprised that you haven't noticed my issues--all of which I have been consistantly "publishing" on this board. In fact, my very first post here plainly stated some of my major issues. I still have them because it's not up to me, as a individual, to solve them. And most of these issues are a RESULT of my healthy diet and lifestyle. For example, my constant experiencing of being one with nature makes me identify with mother earth so much that when trees are cut down, I feel the pain so much as if my arms or fingers are cut down; when bulldozers destroy native prairie for "development," it feels like they are scraping my skin with sharp knives; depleted U-bombs in Iraq or Afgan are like bombing my own bodymind, etc. etc. It's a paradox, I know: the more healthy I become, the more I feel connected with everything and everybody and everywhere, so while I share their happiness, I also share their pain.

The rape thing has never, and will never happen. I don't associate with creeps like that, and I can easily tell who is or isn't a creep by simple face-reading. I also don't go to the wrong place at the wrong time. If the worst comes to the worst, I can always talk them out of it. And as a last resort, say I were gagged, I know enough martial art techniques to debilitate the rapist(s) for the rest of their lives so they won't ever mess with me again. Therefore your last point is a moot issue for me. Nice try, though :)



Re: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling--R. is for Rowdy!

Posted by G. on October 02, 2003 at 20:50:17:

In Reply to: Re: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling--R. is for Rowdy! posted by bing on October 02, 2003 at 19:34:43:

What is your answer to the cat question bing? Those issues of yours are not the problems of the everyday. But to say anything more would be unconscionable. Instead I will ask via email...




Re: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling--R. is for Rowdy!

Posted by bing on October 02, 2003 at 21:19:05:

In Reply to: Re: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling--R. is for Rowdy! posted by G. on October 02, 2003 at 20:50:17:

Huh? I'm not getting this one. Sure, go ahead with email to enlighten me.

As to the cat part, well, it's one of those Rowdy R. parts that I never take seriously. heh heh



Re: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling--R. is for Rowdy!

Posted by R. on October 02, 2003 at 22:26:05:

In Reply to: Re: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling--R. is for Rowdy! posted by bing on October 02, 2003 at 21:19:05:

As to the cat part, well, it's one of those Rowdy R. parts that I never take seriously. heh heh

So, instead of trying to understand the meaning of the post and replying to an argument, you choose to make a joke out of it. Or... you choose to brush it off because the argument proves you wrong. The latter gives you a little credit to your intelligence.

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Re: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling--R. is for Rowdy!

Posted by R. on October 02, 2003 at 23:47:50:

In Reply to: Re: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling--R. is for Rowdy! posted by bing on October 02, 2003 at 19:34:43:

But you forgot humans are a lot more than simple reflexes.

Why do you think I forgot that? Because I didn't mention it? I also didn't mention that I have 3 laptops… Do you think I don't remember about that either?

Of course, humans are more than simple reflexes, and so are other animals. Study physiology and psychology, and you will learn that humans make reflexes too.

So a healthy diet and exercise can always enhance the full capacity of the human bodymind to improve their intelligence, compassion, understanding, and ability to love.

I don't dispute that. Virtually all of that applies to animals too. What's your point?

If we are talking about the normal kind of "abuse" from parents, it's almost impossible to "break" a healthy bodymind. Do you know how hard it is to break a human spirit, even that of a young child, as long as the child is healthy?

We aren't talking about breaking the bodymind or the spirit. We're talking about "normal" problems people have because of "normal" events in their lives and possibly other reasons as well as problems that are more serious than normal.

I'm surprised that you haven't noticed my issues

Why do you think I haven't noticed them? I sure have.

I feel the pain so much as if my arms or fingers are cut down; when bulldozers destroy native prairie for "development," it feels like they are scraping my skin with sharp knives; depleted U-bombs in Iraq or Afgan are like bombing my own bodymind, etc. etc. It's a paradox, I know: the more healthy I become, the more I feel connected with everything and everybody and everywhere, so while I share their happiness, I also share their pain.

I think you feel that much pain because you haven't mastered accepting what you can't change. I don't see what you described as being healthy and balanced. If you've read Castaneda far enough, you may remember that Don Juan warned his student about getting power from using an herb but not being able to control it. Seems similar to you and your sensitivity. I think being able to accept things that you can't change (this is an attribute of wisdom) should come before getting overly sensitive.

The rape thing has never, and will never happen. I don't associate with creeps like that…

I dislike it very much when my words are taken literally. But fine… replace rape with a car accident. Or theft or robbery. Or whatever that CAN happen to saint Bing. BTW, do you go to bars or anywhere where people might have a drink (not necessarily alcoholic drinks)? If so, you could be drugged by somebody, taken to a forest house and tortured for months. That would make you worry a little bit, I am sure. I'd bet you'd be VERY cautious when being offered drinks or food somewhere. That'd be a result of a reflex. If you are going to say that nothing bad could ever happen to you in attempt to avoid replying to my argument, then maybe we should ignore your ideas, at least on this topic, because you don't function like the rest of us, and your ideas don't apply to us.

Now, Bing, I've noticed that you will say anything (including but not limited to irrelevant emotional things) to win an argument and will avoid responding to statements that prove you wrong. If it is THAT important for you to be seen as a winner, then here's my present to you – BING, YOU WON! Now you can safely withdraw from this discussion.



Re: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling--R. is for Rowdy!

Posted by Miss Bliss on October 03, 2003 at 01:47:51:

In Reply to: Re: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling--R. is for Rowdy! posted by R. on October 02, 2003 at 23:47:50:

"I dislike it very much when my words are taken literally."

Why do you dislike it so much, R.?

Uh oh. I think I just took what you said literally. :)

**~BLISS~**



Re: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling--R. is for Rowdy!

Posted by R. on October 03, 2003 at 18:27:29:

In Reply to: Re: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling--R. is for Rowdy! posted by Miss Bliss on October 03, 2003 at 01:47:51:

It was intended to be taken literally, Bliss. But to answer your question -- it makes me feel that I've lost my time writing or saying the words. One thing is when I am joking, and another when I am trying to find an answer to a serious question.

Follow Ups:


Re: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling--R. is for Rowdy!

Posted by bing on October 04, 2003 at 16:40:27:

In Reply to: Re: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling--R. is for Rowdy! posted by R. on October 02, 2003 at 23:47:50:

Wow, I almost believed you when you said you dislike it very much when being taken literally, except that's exactly what you did the first thing in your post. Since logic and commen sense tell us that I don't even know what you remember, I likewise wouldn't know what you forget/forgot. So I used that word in a figurative sense, which you took literally. But that's ok.

The first 3 points you challenged are actuall from what you said in your earlier post, i.e. YOU brought up the reflex issue and the breaking of spirit issue. My point(s) was to address your earlier points. I guess you didn't get it. O well.

The next one, my sensitivity: I'm sure if I wanted, I can resolve this issue, fairly easily. The thing is, I don't want to. Here is the reason: I have to believe first that there is nothing I can do to change those unpleasant things (pollution, destruction of nature, greed, ignorance, stupidity, etc) to accept those things. But I don't believe that, because that means there is no hope. What can be worse than the feeling of hopelessness? I like to think that no matter what, there is always hope. And if there is hope, there is always something you can do about it. So I've been trying to figure out what that "something" is for me to do--the biggest issue in my life right now.

Ok, your last few points: the only car accident I've ever had is not bad for at all: a motorcyclist hit my car from behind and his insurence company ended up paying me quite some money and I only needed to spend a small fraction of that money to fix the car. Robbery: never had one. Bars: never been to one; and have no interest in going to one. So there.

The other point you made about emotional argument: I like to think my writing as a natural blend of logos, ethos, and pathos, because I use my "xin" to write, which combines heart and brain, emotions and logic. I don't like writings which has no emotions: they are boring, barren, banal.

Your final point: you may not believe this but I've never thought postings here in terms of winning or losing. I consider this board not as a battle field, but as a testing ground for ideas--mine and others', and to share ideas. So my happiest moments here are resonance, harmony, consensus, inspiration, and enlightenment--all of which have happened. As to winning an argument etc., I really don't care as much--I've always thought that's a male thing, but not for me.



Re: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling--R. is for Rowdy!

Posted by R. on October 08, 2003 at 00:38:39:

In Reply to: Re: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling--R. is for Rowdy! posted by bing on October 04, 2003 at 16:40:27:

I'm sure if I wanted, I can resolve this issue, fairly easily. The thing is, I don't want to. Here is the reason: I have to believe first that there is nothing I can do to change those unpleasant things (pollution, destruction of nature, greed, ignorance, stupidity, etc) to accept those things. But I don't believe that, because that means there is no hope. What can be worse than the feeling of hopelessness? I like to think that no matter what, there is always hope. And if there is hope, there is always something you can do about it. So I've been trying to figure out what that "something" is for me to do--the biggest issue in my life right now.

What you said shows to me that you don't understand what it means to accept something. Acceptance doesn't lead to hopelessness, which is a negative and unpleasant feeling. Instead, acceptance leads to a feeling of peace and content. Feeling hopelessness actually indicates one's resentment and resistance toward something combined with realization that one can't change it. This is not even close to acceptance.

As for your writing habits, learn from FW. He writes well, but he also knows how to tell emotional blabbering from logical reasoning. I've noticed that this ability usually comes with technical skills, which you lack, by the way.

I am going to let your other points stand on their own... I am learning to choose my battles wisely.



Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling -- I've solved it (please archive)

Posted by R. on October 08, 2003 at 01:12:58:

In Reply to: Re: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling -R. What's Your Take On It? posted by Gregory on September 30, 2003 at 23:16:40:

Dr. Stoll, I think this might be useful to someone who likes to do some soul searching...


I think I've determined why the issue has bothered me, why I didn't want to let go of the anger, and how to solve this problem.

To be able to explain all this, I'll have to describe the issue too. But since this is an old thread, I don't know if anyone will notice it, so I will be brief.

The issue that has bothered me is what I perceive as sluttish behavior of people. There are key elements that I've noticed that have lead me to the solution. I don't care how men behave. Only women. But not all women. Only young, good looking, and nice (in my perception) ones. In other words, any women that I could identify as a potential girlfriend or wife. Only when I think of such a woman acting in a sluttish way, do start feeling that unpleasant and often intensive feeling. So, having become aware of that, I used an investigative approach described in http://www.emofree.com/Archives/Archive60.htm. And I realized what really bothered me. It's a feeling of fear that my current GF (in the past it was an imaginary potential one) could decide to engage into a similar behavior. Then I asked myself why THAT was bad, and the answer I got was that I was afraid she'd leave me. Then I asked myself if there was a time when I was abandoned (or felt being abandoned) in the past, and I recalled being a little boy walking down a street in a strange town having been separated from my mother and my sister. I really felt like they left me, and I was afraid and angry at them.

My GF is really not a type of a girl who'd engage in a sluttish behavior, but my unpleasant feeling was an automatic subconscious reaction. Once I became aware of this sequence (or loop), the intensity of the feeling has dropped dramatically. I haven't even used EFT for this yet… just became aware of the sequence of events that led me to feel the feeling. This sequence used to be completely unconscious, but now it is not, and I have some control over it.

Hopefully, this will benefit somebody.



Re: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling -- I've solved it (please archive)

Posted by thessa on October 08, 2003 at 05:35:27:

In Reply to: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling -- I've solved it (please archive) posted by R. on October 08, 2003 at 01:12:58:

Fantastic work R. A great example for others.

Follow Ups:


Re: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling -- I've solved it (please archive)

Posted by Miss Bliss on October 08, 2003 at 06:27:35:

In Reply to: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling -- I've solved it (please archive) posted by R. on October 08, 2003 at 01:12:58:

Hi R.

It's so great when we can realize what is causing our behaviour. I did notice how highly judgemental and critical you were of women who didn't act according to the way YOU thought they should. I remember someone commenting that they thought you were really young and narrow minded in some of your responses,when it came to this subject.

I also came to a realization about myself and my behaviour yesterday. Anger. I don't often get really angry. Very rarely. I use to have a bad temper, but once I did some spiritual healing on myself, my anger dissipated so much. It helped my personal relationships vry much.

So anyway, I had an "incident" yesterday where I was really afraid, and felt threatened.
I had often heard it said that anger is fear being expressed, or along those lines. Well, I always HEARD that, but I never realized it or felt it as strongly as I did yesterday. It was one of those "A-HA" moments.

So anyway, when I felt the fear in that particular situation, my first instinct was to get angry as a cover for my fear; to protect myself. And I realized straight away what I was doing. It was mind boggling, because then not only could I associate MY anger with MY fear hiding itself, but everyone else's who had ever been angry with me, or shown anger. I realized where it was stemming from. A weakness/fear.



Re: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling -- I've solved it (please arch

Posted by R. on October 08, 2003 at 11:45:22:

In Reply to: Re: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling -- I've solved it (please archive) posted by Miss Bliss on October 08, 2003 at 06:27:35:

Yeah, we are afraid to show our weakness, and getting angry at these times is an example of a general rule: "Put down another to feel good yourself".



Re: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling--R. is for Rowdy!

Posted by bing on October 08, 2003 at 14:23:41:

In Reply to: Re: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling--R. is for Rowdy! posted by R. on October 08, 2003 at 00:38:39:

OMG, R., you just crushed my new dream of becoming a world-class, perfect writer! Well then, perhaps it's better to just relax and remain a critic, and enjoy others' writings. And yes, I too have noticed those qualities in FW's writing. In fact, I noticed them the first time I read his post--when he defended me against PITA's attack. So I feel quite privileged now that he shares some of his writings with me--hope you are not too jealous, heh heh.

Speaking of good writing, I also enjoy Jim H's essays, which always make me smile/laugh. Whatever writing that can make me laugh, cry, or think are good ones. Better yet, Jim H never gives me a hard time but always full of kindness and love. Like a loving father. Unlike you guys, most of whom are more like siblings with all our fight, fun, and folly...

It's probable true that I don't fully understand what acceptance really means. To me, acceptance means taking the good and the bad, part and parcel, without being judgmental. I can accept many things and many people in life, but I still can't (or don't want to) fully accept that list of things I mentioned earlier. To destroy mother earth (in one way or another) is the #1 thing that's difficult for me to accept. It's like seeing your own mother being tortured alive. How can one accept that or even want to accept that?

So R., if you have come to terms with those things, how do YOU accept them?




Re: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling--R. is for Rowdy!

Posted by Gregory on October 08, 2003 at 14:57:57:

In Reply to: Re: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling--R. is for Rowdy! posted by bing on October 08, 2003 at 14:23:41:

Isn't coming to terms swith something the same thing as acceptance?



Re: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling -- I've solved it (please arch

Posted by Miss Bliss on October 08, 2003 at 18:11:53:

In Reply to: Re: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling -- I've solved it (please arch posted by R. on October 08, 2003 at 11:45:22:

I think sometimes you have to actually experience a concept, in order to fully grasp it, and not just on a mental level.

What came through loud and clear for me, was that ALL anger was just FEAR masquerading. So, in essence, everyone who had hurt me through their own anger, was stemming from a place of fear.

It kinda helped me have more understanding for people's bad behaviour through my own negative behaviour, thus making it easier to start the forgiveness process.

How are you at forgiveness, R? I am getting better, but its a tough one for me. And as we know resentments can build up in one's system and cause all manner of illness/disease.

**~BLISS~**

P.S. When you came to your realization of the root cause of your behaviour, was it through EFT or not R? Or was it just a thinking process that you used? Like deep contemplation.





Re: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling--R. is for Rowdy!

Posted by bing on October 08, 2003 at 19:16:35:

In Reply to: Re: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling--R. is for Rowdy! posted by Gregory on October 08, 2003 at 14:57:57:

Right. That's what I meant: I'd like to know HOW R. (and anyone else) has come to terms with those things.

Follow Ups:


Re: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling -- I've solved it (please arch

Posted by R. on October 08, 2003 at 21:03:11:

In Reply to: Re: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling -- I've solved it (please arch posted by Miss Bliss on October 08, 2003 at 18:11:53:

I am getting better at too, Bliss.

No, I haven't used EFT (which is tapping on certain points while saying certain things) for this yet.



Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling -- Now that it's solved...

Posted by Gregory on October 08, 2003 at 21:25:53:

In Reply to: Re: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling -- I've solved it (please arch posted by R. on October 08, 2003 at 21:03:11:

That's pretty interesting R. So anger is never actually anger then? It is always and uniquvically fear? Because that sounds a lot like saying sex is always lovemaking in order to put an acceptable face on it.

I kinda wondering about forgiveness too. Don't me get me wrong. I think it's great that you took this little journey of yours, but you didn't have to. You could have went the EFT route, and not have to follow this thing back to the source -yet I can't understand how you made the leap from abandonemnt to slutty, and thereafter to anger.

I had an experience similar to yours when I was a kid. I got lost in a store so big, it would have qualified as a mall today. I remember being terrified. Relief when my mother found me was palpable -you could have cut it with a knife. But I didn't make any connection other than stay close to mom when out in mall-sized department stores. I wasn't angry (except at myself for wandering off). Pain and heartbreak at the hands of women came much later in life. [wry smile]

So what I'm asking you is (for you) is anger ever just anger or do you always dress it up as something else like Bliss does?



Re: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling--R. is for Rowdy!

Posted by R. on October 08, 2003 at 23:03:23:

In Reply to: Re: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling--R. is for Rowdy! posted by bing on October 08, 2003 at 14:23:41:

I haven't completely accepted them, but I don't let them prevent me from continuing living and enjoying my life. I think it's partly a matter of focus of one's attention. Let's say, I hear that some children somewhere have died. I could "tune" into it and think that their parents are grieving now and imagine me losing my loved ones, etc. All that would probably make me want to cry. But what's the point? How would that help anyone? It wouldn't, in my opinion. So, I think, instead, that they are far away, unrelated to me, and that people die somewhere every single minute, and that people I just heard about aren't really any different than those that die every minute without being talked about by mass media. Using vague terms (which you seem to like very much), I transcend the event and focus on the fact that nothing really changed, the world keeps on going, I still have my life, and so do my loved ones. It's a creative approach, and every situation requires somewhat different things to think and say to myself.

Follow Ups:


Re: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling -- I've solved it (please archive)

Posted by Walt Stoll on October 09, 2003 at 07:33:46:

In Reply to: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling -- I've solved it (please archive) posted by R. on October 08, 2003 at 01:12:58:

Thanks, R.

I think it was Winston Churchill who said: "An unexamined life is not worth living."

Self-analysis is always worth while.

Namaste`

Walt

Follow Ups:


Re: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling -- Now that it's solved...

Posted by R. on October 09, 2003 at 19:24:45:

In Reply to: Not wanting to let go of a bothersome feeling -- Now that it's solved... posted by Gregory on October 08, 2003 at 21:25:53:

No, I can't explain all instances of anger as fear. Sometimes it stems from arrogance and expectations. I don't always realize that there are things beyond my control, and there's really no need for anger. For example, when I am late and am rushing to an airport at 110 mph, if there's some schmuck on the road driving at half the speed, I get very angry, even though it is unreasonable to expect other people to behave to my satisfaction all the time. Bliss would probably say I am afraid of missing an airplane, and I wouldn't argue with her much. It's not very important for the topic that I brought up in my original post, though.

I didn't go the EFT route because I didn't want to do anything I thought would be useful to eliminate the anger. Remember I said I wanted to hang to it? The anger felt righteous. Another reason I didn't use EFT was that I don't know it enough to use it without a manual, and that takes time. But the primary reason was that I didn't really want to let go of the anger because I felt there was a need for it... until I realized what REALLY bothered me. Moreover, EFT possibly wouldn't have worked if I had applied it for the apparent symptom.

I can't understand how you made the leap from abandonemnt to slutty, and thereafter to anger.

It was the opposite way – from the sluttish behavior of certain types of women to a thought that my GF or wife would do the same and leave me. I am not sure if the incident in my childhood is important to my healing. I mentioned it because it came to my mind when I asked why the idea of being abandoned is so hurtful. It's not like I can't live without a particular woman. I am an adult now. If she became a slut and left me, then that would mean she's not good for me. But the the thought was very painful. So, naturally, I asked myself that question.

Now that I am aware of the links in the sequence of events from the thought to feeling, it has much less control over me. There's an approach (Bliss described it in this thread, BTW) that involves paying attention (just observing without criticizing or attaching labels) to what bothers you. Some people believe that that you are aware of loses control over you. I suppose that one could argue about the extent to which this happens, but I have certainly noticed this effect in my own life.

When I have a little more free time, I will learn EFT more and will apply it to the newly found issues to complete healing. Perhaps, I will experience other benefits as a result of collapsing these bothersome "aspects", as EFT refers to them.

Follow Ups:


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