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In Reply to: Re: Severe arthritis of the knee-Help Dr. Kim, Dr. SToll posted by Rita on September 25, 2000 at 13:47:55:
Hi, Rita.
Congratulations on your weight loss. This will help more than you know! Not to be a perfectionist about this but just to state the facts: Until you have normal knees for about a year, you would be better off #10 underweight than overweight.
Next, as soon as you can document that you are doing your (effective) SR twice a day, you can mark on your calendar and 6 months later you will have seen most of the benefits from THAT. If you keep it up you will see more benefits only not so fast.
Finally, with knee arthritis one has to consider the facts of wear & tear progressing faster than repair (always present with degenerative arthritis). Considering that, ANY form of weight-bearing exercise is setting you back--even walking at the mall. You have to consider that every step you take is using up one of the fixed number of steps you have left. ANY doc should have told you that. Under water exercises are the only ones for which that is not true and you NEED exercise.
For example: you should NOT be walking steps--------
Walt
In Reply to: Re: Severe arthritis of the knee-Help Dr. Kim, Dr. Stoll (Archive in arthritis.) posted by Walt Stoll on September 27, 2000 at 09:22:46:
Hi Walt,
I'm surprised you don't approve of walking which is commonly recommended for OA of the knees. My trainer who knows I have arthritis just recommended step training to strengthen the quads. He also suggested that I do repetitions of light weights on various machines to develop the quads and hamstrings. What is your thought on this? What about biking? I am looking into water aerobics too.
We do have a two story house and unfortunately steps are part of the deal. I do try to minimize trips.
Last but not least, one of the docs recommended synvisc to help postpone knee replacement surgery. Can this help and is it safe?
Rita
In Reply to: Re: Severe arthritis of the knee-Help Dr. Kim, Dr. Stoll (Archive in arthritis.) posted by Rita on September 28, 2000 at 09:15:59:
I have a suggestion. Don't know if Walt will agree but i'd like his comment on it.
When you have arthritis in a joint, it isn't just the cartilage and bone that is affected but also the surrounding tissue including the ligaments, tendons and muscles. I can't see how walking can hurt you. In fact, without walking, you will just get worse because the cartilage in your knees relies on the compression that takes place during walking for nutrition. There is very little blood supply to the cartilage. The synovial fluid surrounding your joints supplies the nutrition and the cartilage acts like a sponge sucking in nutrients and letting out waste. No movement, no nutrition, no cartilage regrowth, no health. Only a slow deterioration in the health of the knee. The muscles surrounding the joints get more and more weak which only furthers the deterioration of the joints so my thinking tells me to get moving!!!!
Now, to further help the strengthening of your joints and to further delay the progression of arthritis in your knee, I would recommend prolotherapy. prolotherapy is a treatment in which dextrose is injected into the fibroosseous junction and actually regrows new ligaments and tendons. This helps OA because these tissues are also effected in the process. with stronger ligaments and tendons you can exercise more and you will have a more stable knee. As ligaments become weaker, the cartilage starts wearing out more because the joint is able to move beyond it's range of motion. So the prolo, with moderate exercise and good nutrition can only help the situation not worsen it. I hope I get backed up on this point. Good luck
Rich
After a few weeks of some serious hiking and biking on relatively level surfaces, I've had a clicking in my right knee and severe pain in my left knee. I'm 53 and have had cartilage taken out of my left knee about 5 years ago and an arthroscopy to check for a torn acl on my right knee a year ago. I did not have a torn acl and no cartilage was removed. I have been told, however, that I have severe arthritis and was told a year ago that I will probably need knee replacements within ten years. Until my athletic pursuits this summer, my knees were not too bad. When I saw my PCP for these new problems, he recommended pain relievers and said I had synovitis of the knee. I then saw an orthpodeic specialist who noted that I have Baker's Cysts on both knees. He wants more x-rays of the knees and is recommending cleaning out debri in both knees during an arthroscopy. He said he was trying to buy time for my knees before a replacement could be done. By the way, I also have rheumatoid arthritis although the orthodedist did not believe this was a result of rheumatoid arthritis.
I saw a neuromuscular massage therapist who helped with the clicking in my right knee. He said it was the IT band and that additional stretching would help. While he helped temporarily, the clicking came back.
Will strengthening and stretching exercises help? The doctor made no comment about this even when I asked - other than to say it might be painful because of the Baker's Cysts.(A trainer told me to stop leg extensions and curls until the clicking stopped.) While I've never seen a chiropractor, I am contemplating visiting one after reading your archives. I would like to preserve my knees as long as possible. Could the chiropractor and neuromuscular massage therapist be able to help?
Rita
In Reply to: Severe arthritis of the knee-Help Dr. Kim, Dr. SToll posted by Rita on September 23, 2000 at 12:57:20:
Rita,
I have had knee problems and cod liver oil helped when I
had pain and I don't have the problem anymore. I have been
trying o find out how it could have helped since a physical
therapist friend scoffed at it when I asked him about it
after a 70 yr old guy I knew who walked 5 mi a day told me
he had been taking it for years and it helped his. I learned
about the synovial fluid sacks in the joints and that Vit D
nourshed them and Cod is A & D. I used to have to Crack my
knees by standing on one foot and Twisting.
Recently I developed an ache below my kneecaps mainly
when walking down steps and they say it is weak thigh
thigh muscles or an imbalance between the front back thigh
muscles. Exercises and MSM has solved it except on rare
occasions.
VF
In Reply to: Re: Severe arthritis of the knee-Help Dr. Kim, Dr. SToll posted by Vince F on September 23, 2000 at 19:04:29:
You just happened to touch on a subject that I DO know about. The clicking in your knee is due to a weakened or stretched ligament or tendon. If it doesn't go away on its or own or with the other things you are doing, consider Prolotherapy. This is a treatment that can actually re-grow ligaments, tendons, and even cartilage. The technique involves the injection of ordinary dextrose (sugar) into the point where the ligament or tendon attaches to the bone (This doesn't hurt although it sounds like it). This created a sterile inflammation and your body thinks it has a new injury so it sends fibroblasts to the area to rebuild and strengthen it. It usually takes between 4-6 treatments to fully rebuild a ligament or tendon but I know first hand that it works as I have been a prolotherapy patient for over 1 year. The results are astonoshing. Email me for specifics.
Rich Gonci
In Reply to: Severe arthritis of the knee-Help Dr. Kim, Dr. SToll posted by Rita on September 23, 2000 at 12:57:20:
Hi, Rita
The end of January 2000, I fell directly onto my right knee and saw stars. At that time I wasn't too worried about my knee, but my right hip which was replaced May of 99. My orthopedic surgeon advised there was no problem with my hip, however, I'd torn the lateral meniscus on right knee. He sent me to physical therapy in order to strengthen my muscles in that leg. As much as I fought PT, it was better than surgery. My rehab doctor still believes it's better to do arthroscopic surgery to clean it out. He advised that it might give me an additional 5 years before it's necessary to do a knee replacement. (cold day in July)
I've been going to a chiropractor for several years and it's helped through the years. Recently changed to a chiropractor skilled in kinseiology and feeling much better. My left knee only clicks when I straighten it out after sitting, but never when walking.
End of July fell again when I was startled and turned only to have my right knee go out from underneath me. I wear a brace when I'm walking, however, haven't had the courage to walk on the path since my fall. Exercise has helped me a lot and since PT ended, I haven't been exercising as during PT. The rehab Doctor knee this past week without me answering him due to the stiffness of my legs. Strange, it wasn't the right one that was stiff, but the left.
My former trainer advised me to stop exercising whenever my joints started to click as well. He'd have me do stretching exercises instead and then resume exercising in a week or two. Fortunately, I don't have a baker's cyst and can't offer you any advise on that.
I've got a massage therapist but can't go to her as she's hurt her hand.:-( Need to schuedle Soma/Rolfing session #8 soon. In addition, I'm currently doing daily SR sessions which help as well.
You can input arthritis, baker's cyst, as well as click onto the glossary/index at top of this post, along with the synmptoms and/diseases quick reference guide for further information.
ex:
3-Legged Stool Walt's How to Be Healthy Article
Refers to the most-beneficial combination of (1) Skilled Relaxation, (2) Aerobic Exercise, and (3) Whole Foods Diet that Walt Stoll encourages everyone to practice for Wellness
Hope this helps and Take Care Of Yourself
Paulette
In Reply to: Re: Severe arthritis of the knee-Help Dr. Kim, Dr. SToll posted by Rich Gonci on September 23, 2000 at 19:54:13:
Rich !!!
Where are you at that you know a Prolotherapist that uses
Glucose ?? I have only found ones using saline. I haven't
really needed it but wish I had gone to the one who cured
my mother and friends before he retired since they never had
the problem come back. He was an orthopedic surgeon who gave
cuting once he found the treatment.
I have wished I could find one to recomend to friends who
have problems that they might be able to heal.
Why have you been going for a year ?? Most people I know
who have been treated have been cured overnite except for
a girlfriend who had had back surgery and they hit a nerve
and numbed her leg and she was better in a few mo and went
skiing after.
VF
In Reply to: !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!?????????????????? posted by Vince F on September 23, 2000 at 21:36:25:
Well, the reason I was going for a year, was because just about every ligament in my body became lax for no apparent reason. I was very slow to heal but I finally did. Now, for the big dissapointment, after 3 months of stopping treatment, the problem came right back. I have been pondering why that might have happened. Then I discovered the candida/leaky gut/hormonal imbalance/autoimmune problems I had underneath. I would get prolo and it would help, but then my body would just break down the tissue again. I wasted a lot of money on it. I am going to go back and do it all again when the underlying problems have been dealt with but I have been trying to get rid of them for 2 years and I am unsuccessful so I don't know what I should do. Anyway, the doctor I went to was Dr. Edward Magaziner and he practices in East Brunswick New Jersey. He uses dextrose, and sometimes stronger solutions. I occasionally went to Dr. Ross Hauser in Oak Park Illonois because he could do more body parts at one visit. Suprised to hear that he just used saline. And you are right, most people are cured practically over night but not if you have an autoimmune problem and underlying infections. Who knew.
Rich Gonci
In Reply to: Re: !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!?????????????????? posted by Rich Gonci on September 23, 2000 at 23:53:41:
Rich,
I'm in Phila so East Brunswick isn't that far I don't
think. Isn't that near New Brunswick ?? Been a long time
since i used to travel in the area.
Are you saying the saline injections could treat more parts
at once ?? I wonder why ??
What is stronger than dextrose ?? My understanding is that
dextrose Feeds the part and saline irritates it and draws
blood to the site. I am not opposed to that idea but seeing
the amazing results when using sugar I would opt for that.
Thanks for the info.
VF
In Reply to: Re: Severe arthritis of the knee-Help Dr. Kim, Dr. SToll posted by Rich Gonci on September 23, 2000 at 19:54:13:
Hi Rich,
Thanks for the information about prolotherapy. I am currently on Bob McFerron's diet to treat candiasis and rheumatoid arthritis. I also take a variety of supplements including cod liver oil and essential fatty acids but prolotherapy is new to me. I plan to try stretching and possibly a chiropractor. If that doesn't work, I'd like to find someone who is knowledgeable about prolotherapy. I defintely would like to avoid arthroscopy surgery.
In Reply to: Re: Severe arthritis of the knee-Help Dr. Kim, Dr. SToll posted by Paulette on September 23, 2000 at 20:18:21:
Thanks, Paulette.
SO, you are only doing your SR once a day, eh?
Walt
In Reply to: Severe arthritis of the knee-Help Dr. Kim, Dr. SToll posted by Rita on September 23, 2000 at 12:57:20:
Hi, Rita.
A few questions:
Waht do you know about underwater exercises?
Are you overweight?
How are you doing with SR?
Are you taking glucosamine?
Walt
In Reply to: Re: Severe arthritis of the knee-Help Dr. Kim, Dr. SToll posted by Walt Stoll on September 25, 2000 at 09:37:51:
Hi, Walt
Your welcome. I've been ranging between 1 - 2 SR sessions for past few weeks since PT ended.
So exhausted after class tend to forget the evening SR as I'm normally in class the time I used to do SR. Ok, I'll be sure to fit an SR session in prior to going to class.
Take Care Of Yourself
Paulette
In Reply to: Re: Severe arthritis of the knee-Help Dr. Kim, Dr. SToll posted by Walt Stoll on September 25, 2000 at 09:42:00:
I am doing SR about once a day. I know I need to up it to twice a day. I have lost about 30 pounds since I went on Bob McFerron's diet for RA. At this point I might be 10 pounds overweight at most. I do take glucosamine sulfate. I also take cod liver oil, EFA, primrose oil and other supplements. I also have modified my diet to eat whole foods and drink 8-10 glasses of pure water a day. These changes have all occurred in the last two-three months.
My knees were holding out fine until I did the exercises. I know I overdid it but now they are really painful. I haven't been doing water exercises but I am doing gentle stretching. I learned these from the physical therapist after my previous arthroscopies. I am most concerned about the knee that clicks. When I straigthen my knee out it seems as if something is actually catching for a moment. AT first it only happened when I went down steps (a 2 story house) but now it also happens when I walk. I'm afraid to bend my knee so now I'm walking with a limp.
The PCP and trainer recommended Celebrex. I know for the long term this is bad but the trainer says it will reduce swelling and help eliminate further damage. Also can a chiropractor help with manipulation of the knee?
The surgeon has recommended arthroscopy for both knees. I've had one on each knee before and I don't want to touch the cartilage that's left if I can help it. If I can follow a regiment that will heal both knees, I'm willing to give it a try.
In Reply to: Re: Severe arthritis of the knee-Help Dr. Kim, Dr. Stoll (Archive in arthritis.) posted by Rich Gonci on September 28, 2000 at 17:43:55:
Hi, Rich
I've got problems with my left knee clicking and the right knee has a torn lateral meniscus. I had an appointment with my pain management doctor this morning and he again advised me Not to make the condition worse by walking. He's advised me to use a Stationary Bicycle and/or Pool Exercises. My doctor is aware of the fact that I'd been doing poll exercises and stationary bicycle then stopped when school started. You're right in that it hurts more to get moving than when I had been exercising regularly. As I've got a hip replacement as well, it's crucial for me not to endure any further injuries. Believe Rita needs to be just as careful. Pool exercises would be more beneficial than walking IMHO. The water does offer resistance, however, there's less strain on the knee joints.
The end of July I attempted to walk on the community path and ended up falling hard onto my ankle, hip, tailbone, arm and shoulder. He advised me this is one of the reasons not to walk and there's too much of a chance of doing further injury. My right knee went out from under me due to me being startled by something soooo simple as sprinklers being triggered on at set hours.
Certain there's no harm in exercising under controlled conditions. While walking in the public areas there are too many chances of exacerbating the existing condition and complicating recovery.
Hope this helps
Take Care Of Yourself
Paulette
In Reply to: Re: Severe arthritis of the knee-Help Dr. Kim, Dr. Stoll (Archive in arthritis.)--To Walk Or Not To Walk?hmmm posted by Paulette on September 29, 2000 at 08:21:34:
Hi Dr. Stoll, Rich and Paulette,
I saw my orthopedic surgeon yesterday and he wants to do arthroscopies on both knees. I've already had them done once and this would be my absolute last choice of options. He claims unless the debri inside is cleaned, I'll just be one step closer to a knee replacement which he claims I will eventually need anyway. I though arthroscopie just hastened the process to knee replacement. The doc said athletes have them done at the every season. Is he serious?
Paulette, I seem to have the same problems with my knees that you do. I am looking into pool exercise but haven't been able to go yet as there is a waiting list. The doc wouldn't recommend anything but surgery. I saw a chiropractor recommended by a friend who had good results with her knee. He said alignment of the hips would help. I'm not sure about this. What do you folks think? I'm looking for a non invasive way to get better. Is a treadmill or stationary bike really okay?
Also, is it possible to heal nonsurgically and if so how and how long does it usually take?
Rita
In Reply to: Re: Severe arthritis of the knee-Help Dr. Kim, Dr. Stoll (Archive in arthritis.) posted by Rich Gonci on September 28, 2000 at 17:43:55:
Hi Rich,
The prolotherapy sounds interesting but I've heard it's quite expensive. Am I correct in assuming that insurance doesn't cover it? Have you had it done and was it successful?
Rita
In Reply to: Re: Severe arthritis of the knee-Help Dr. Kim, Dr. Stoll (Archive in arthritis.)--To Walk Or Not To Walk?hmmm posted by Rita on September 29, 2000 at 11:37:33:
Hi, Rita
I'm unable to advise if it's better if you have both knees cleaned out or not. My rehab doctor still advises it would be better if I had it done. As I said before, "a cold day in July." A hip replacement is one too many surgies that I want to ever endure again for orthopedics. My doc says I've got a new hip and original hip. Personally, I'd prefer to have all original equipment instead of titanium alloy parts that wear out quicker!
There has been a great improvement in how my knees feel since I've been going to see a chiropractor skilled in kinesiology. There's no need for me to use my cane, even though I keep it in my car just in case. My passengers laugh as they sit in the passenger seat and avoid my cane.
As far as the pool exercises are concerned, I've got no problem in getting in to the pool. I've got a membership from years gone by at a local well known gym. I go to exercise briefly with the weights and then practically live in the pool downstairs. Since it's an indoor pool, no problem with the outside weather conditions. Sometimes the pool is closed for maintenance and that's when I can't do my exercises. Need to go back onto my exercise program as soon as I can.
Hope this helps you. Hang in there and don't let them pressure you into doing something you might not want.
Take Care Of Yourself
Paulette
In Reply to: Cost of Prolotherapy posted by Rita on September 29, 2000 at 11:45:22:
It ranges from $75 to $300 per session depending on the size of the joint. Some insurance companies to cover it. It all depends on what insurance compamies the doctor works with. I had received extensive prolo for weak ligaments in my neck and it works like a miracle. Takes bit longer if you have an autoimmune problem.
Rich
In Reply to: Re: Severe arthritis of the knee-Help Dr. Kim, Dr. Stoll (Archive in arthritis.) posted by Rita on September 28, 2000 at 09:15:59:
Hi, Rita.
ANYONE who recommends weight bearing exercises for OA is simply ignorant of the mechanics of this condition. It is a degenerative condition which is directly related to the wear & tear happening faster than the repair. The more weight bearing the more wear & tear.
Light weight training, with a lot of reps, is helpful as is underwater exercise. You need to move where you do not need to use the steps.
What is "synvisc"? The only thing I know that will do what was claimed for THAT is glucosamine sulfate at 750 milligrams twice a day, essential oils and serious SR.
Let us know how you do.
Walt
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