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I know that we all know that some exercise and so on, can help with the decrease of many symptoms - but new research (current) shows that there is a very large decrease in MS and other autoimmune "diseases" with a strong yoga practice. If anyone is suffering, and you want to do this, make sure you do a meditative yoga - that seemed to be the key - not the power, sweat, and so forth - but the slower, more internal yoga practices. If anyone wants more info, I can either (a) post it or (b) you can email me.
I do know that people I've worked with, with the alleged "fibromyalgia" and so on, have reported higher energy and less pain overall, after just one month of two classes per week (we do at least 15-20 minutes of guided meditation at the end of class also)
and BREATHING is SO important. So many people are shallow breathers - so I'm researching now, is it the yoga practice itself, or the deep breathing that one does WITH the yoga that is helping others. I have some studies going on right now myself and hope to add to the base of this.
In Reply to: New Studies Link Decreased Immunity with Yoga Practice posted by Michele on June 13, 2003 at 08:48:07:
key word: pranayama
In Reply to: New Studies Link Decreased Immunity with Yoga Practice posted by Michele on June 13, 2003 at 08:48:07:
The posts suggests that yoga practices will make your immune system less not more healthy...
In Reply to: New Studies Link Decreased Immunity with Yoga Practice posted by Michele on June 13, 2003 at 08:48:07:
Do you think the effects could be coming from an SR like effect on bracing that these people might have?
In Reply to: Re: New Studies Link Decreased Immunity with Yoga Practice posted by Wellbeing on June 13, 2003 at 09:22:21:
Personally, yes - because SR, even Prayer - is very similar - anything that slows the body. Ancient Yogi's are taught that all men have a certain alloted breaths - so that the slower you breath, the longer you live. They know this is hypothetical of course - but liken it to a hummingbird life and an elephant or turtle, the latter who breath sometimes only three times per minute...
In Reply to: Then shouldn't the title post be an INCREASE in Immunity...etcetra posted by Gregory on June 13, 2003 at 09:08:38:
My mistake - it should boost health.
In Reply to: Re: New Studies Link Decreased Immunity with Yoga Practice posted by jj on June 13, 2003 at 08:51:40:
The studies found that those practicing Pranayama for the most part, do so wrong. One usually starts a yoga class and get's right into breathing with poses...Raja yoga on the other hand - which is the type involved in the studies -asks you to not practice the asanas and panayama together at first - but you do practice meditation at the end. The key seems to be meditation - though the people who advance to PROPER breathing have the added benefits. The mind can control the breathing - where Pranayama seems to be more "thinking about breathing and spacing breathing" where the meditation is guided without breathing prompts. But yes, any benefical Pranayama would be helpful, just isn't the subject of this particular study that I was intrigued by!
In Reply to: Not the keyword! posted by michele on June 13, 2003 at 09:28:55:
I just meant key word, as in using it for search. :) But you already know.
True, Raja teachers are very fussy about that. They will say the skills are very powerful and not to be taken lightly. I personally think my teacher was a little arrogant about it, but not so much as to be a blowhard. (pun intended)
In Reply to: Yep, the keyword. posted by jj on June 13, 2003 at 09:36:29:
LOL YES! Blowhard is a great word! LOL
I am actually in the process with the Yoga Alliance to be a certifying studio to teach a 200 hour Raja certification and a 500 hour Yoga Therapist Training (with Raja as the base) LOL and I try not to be a stickler in the regular classes... it's hard though because people from other forms come in and are obviously VERY beginnner and are doing all of this blowing in and out, and I'm there like, "STOP THE INCESSANT WRONG BREATHING" LOL but I can't :)
In Reply to: Re: Yep, the keyword. posted by Michele on June 13, 2003 at 10:05:13:
No doubt I was just the same sort of an irritating student. I used to love doing Kapalabhati (I can get to that space without it now), and was always requesting we do it in class.
You know, Stanislav Groff brought the practice somewhat mainstream a couple of decades ago, calling it a "birthing" technique, but I have not heard anything about it lately.
But you are so right about the shallow breathing. It is an unconscious action similar to "bracing".
In Reply to: Re: Yep, the keyword. posted by jj on June 13, 2003 at 12:18:03:
Are you sure shallow breathing is bad? Some people achieve very good results with their diseases by practicing shallow breathing.
- The Importance of Breathing
- Buteyko Asthma Management;
- Results of a search for "shallow" on that website
In Reply to: Re: Yep, the keyword. posted by Michele on June 13, 2003 at 10:05:13:
Remember the episode with george's father yelling "SERENITY NOW!" trying to relax!!!
LOL
In Reply to: the irritable yoga teacher! posted by seinfeld fan on June 13, 2003 at 14:33:18:
Oh, yeah!
In Reply to: Then shouldn't the title post be an INCREASE in Immunity...etcetra posted by Gregory on June 13, 2003 at 09:08:38:
That was my thought too: "Michele got something wrong again" :)
In Reply to: Is shallow breathing really undesired? posted by R. on June 13, 2003 at 14:33:08:
Shallow breathing results in increased stress. I am not saying that one must breath deeply ALL of the time...just that stress induced illnesses are hand in hand with shallow breathing.
In Reply to: the irritable yoga teacher! posted by seinfeld fan on June 13, 2003 at 14:33:18:
That was me one time! We have a yogalates class which isn't so "serene" and I yelled out, "JUST FREAKING SHUT YOUR EYES!"
In Reply to: Re: Then shouldn't the title post be an INCREASE in Immunity...etcetra posted by R. on June 13, 2003 at 14:35:34:
My thought was "R was nitpicking again" - obviously KNOWING it was a mistake! Uy! If you lived in PA I'd whip yer arse. LOL
In Reply to: Is shallow breathing really undesired? posted by R. on June 13, 2003 at 14:33:08:
Your sites talk of HEAVY breathing - which is not deep breathing. In fact, shallow breathing, if anyone looks it up at all, is often associated with illness.... and pale clammy skin. Not cool.
In Reply to: Re: Is shallow breathing really undesired? posted by Michele on June 13, 2003 at 15:13:46:
But when one goes into a deep trance or meditation, breathing becomes very shallow. How do you explain that?
In Reply to: Is shallow breathing really undesired? posted by R. on June 13, 2003 at 14:33:08:
Other than this one website which really focus' on people who hypervenilate, who else has it helped? How do they know people in the "west" do not know how to "deep breath" as in a yoga setting?
I'm curious as to where they get THEIR facts...
Though - I agree with you on one thing - if you look over my posts on this string, I do focus on how people jump into a yoga practice with some unqualified (and qualified) teachers - and that the breathing is over-rated.
Personally I feel, and have said this before - that breathing comes fairly naturally. One woman on the site argued with me that one HAD to breath in a "system" to get enough "Air" while doing poses. Nope. Not true. It's like running - when you need more air, your body get's it naturally. That is why the research states that it is more the meditative purpose of yoga more than the breathing...to which I agree. I do feel however that deeper, slower breathing kicks shallow breathing's butt.
OH and by the way - my many little mistakes are because I have a strong dyslexia problem. I try! :)
In Reply to: Is shallow breathing really undesired? posted by R. on June 13, 2003 at 14:33:08:
Speaking only of my own experience, I discovered that I slip into shallow breathing during daily activity. It is constricted and related to tension, and it shows in my posture. That is not good for me. But when I practice SR my respirations go way down and are shallow also. I don't do this on purpose, it just happens, and I don't think that is bad for me.
The practice of deliberate deep breathing, even to the point of hyperventilating, creates physiological changes. I'm sure you know that. Some people feel it is healing, and some even think it is spiritually enlightening. I felt it was helpful for a time and up to a point. Now you've dug up references showing the opposite is also true. It's like Bliss said earlier, you can find "experts" on opposites of all these questions.
This I do know, it's important to keep breathing.
In Reply to: Re: Is shallow breathing really undesired? posted by R. on June 13, 2003 at 15:21:07:
When you sleep, do you consider that shallow breathing?
When one is in a trance like state, they are taking slow, deep breaths... not shallow.
Sleep is a slow, deep breath.
In Reply to: Re: The important thing is to keep breathing posted by jj on June 13, 2003 at 15:27:13:
But those people get good results in practice! It's not just some theory. Maybe there's a difference in semantics? Michele said they are talking about heavy breathing, which is different from shallow one.
In Reply to: Re: Is shallow breathing really undesired? posted by michele on June 13, 2003 at 15:33:45:
I don't know what I do during sleep, but during trance my breathing is slow and shallow.
In Reply to: Is shallow breathing really undesired? posted by R. on June 13, 2003 at 14:33:08:
I just researched more on what you offered and though there were a handful of people actually helped, upon closer study, they found that those who were "helped" needed less medication anyway and were overmedicated by their traditional MDs (suprise)
It also stated that there was no actual proof in outside studies (other than those by the Buteyko's, which could be slanted) that this technique has ANY benefits at all.
I didn't have time to look at more studies, so this could be wrong. Just bringing up a point.
On that, I have to shower, eat and teach....argue with you tonight :)
In Reply to: Re: Is shallow breathing really undesired? posted by michele on June 13, 2003 at 15:19:26:
What do you mean by heavy breathing? Is it one you think they are against? Are you saying they are NOT against deep breathing?
shallow breathing, if anyone looks it up at all, is often associated with illness
But that is what I did -- look it up! And they use what they call shallow breathing do improve health. Is it possible that you use the words differently from them?
In Reply to: Re: Is shallow breathing really undesired? posted by R. on June 13, 2003 at 15:42:13:
THAT is why you are in a trance! You need more air! LOLOLOL
In Reply to: Re: The important thing is to keep breathing posted by R. on June 13, 2003 at 15:40:41:
I think you are missing the point - the point is that the meditative aspect of the yoga - for those who really tune into themselves and their bodies - is perhaps more beneficial than ANY of the breathing that happens during Yoga - east OR west - be it shallow OR deep. By deep I mean, slow and full. Now a fast shallow breath.
When I say "shallow" I mean, the kind when someone is anxious. It's fast, shallow, and induces stress. I don't think you are talking about the lighter breath which is more whole.
In Reply to: Other studies say that technique is unorthadox posted by Michele on June 13, 2003 at 15:44:46:
Saying that the technique is unorthodox is not saying much. Most of what so called alternative medicine practitioners (Dr. Stoll and you included) do is unorthodox. Is your point that unorthodox approaches must be discarded? If not, what ARE you saying?
As I can tell, they have helped many more than a handful of people. Or maybe your hand is very big. I've encountered several people personally that have been helped by the method, and mother is one of them. And I know how bad her asthma used to be. She virtually has no attacks now.
In Reply to: Re: The important thing is to keep breathing posted by R. on June 13, 2003 at 15:40:41:
Well now, wait a minute, R, heaving breathing is a different matter. I first learned about it around the time of puberty. Heavy breathing is a good thing!
In Reply to: Re: The important thing is to keep breathing posted by Michele on June 13, 2003 at 15:49:48:
Now you are making more sense when you qualified it more -- fast AND shallow. I think the keyword here is fast, and it causes hyperventilation. Below is a quote from one of the articles I linked to. What Buteyko people are really against is fast breathing that leads to hyperventilation that cause metabolic disturbances.
"From an esoteric point of view the idea of deep breathing to get more “chi” or “prana” is just a misunderstanding of ancient techniques. They state that there are two types of “chi”: internal and external, and the objective is to awaken and increase the inner one rather then gulping down the outer. Besides, “full breathing” is just an initial part of the system. In pranayama, the breathing is controlled and divided into parts, it could, say, be the ratio 2-1-2-1, where inhalation – 2, then pause – 1, exhalation – 2, pause – 1. So you may start with breathing in for 6 (seconds or heart beats), then pause for 3 seconds, breathe out for 6 seconds, pause for 3 seconds, then repeat it. The part which is usually omitted is that one should progress to, say, 16-8-16-8 or more, perhaps 32-16-32-16. That would be only 2 breaths in 3 minutes (compared to 16-18 per minute in an average adult) – miles away from hyperventilation. If a person can master that, he will breathe “as if he does not breathe” – which is how masters of yoga describe ideal breathing. In ancient Greece “light breathing” was a sure sign of good health. Unfortunately, many people take only the “deep breathing” part from the whole system and by applying it in everyday life they are drugged into heavy hyperventilation which eventually ruins their health."
In Reply to: Re: The important thing is to keep breathing posted by jj on June 13, 2003 at 16:01:33:
Is that when you lost your virginity? :)
In Reply to: Re: Is shallow breathing really undesired? posted by Michele on June 13, 2003 at 15:46:31:
Go do your things and come back with something better than that, Michele.
In Reply to: Re: The important thing is to keep breathing posted by R. on June 13, 2003 at 16:05:47:
There is a statistically significant realtionship between my puberty, heavy breathing and the disappearance of my virginity. ;)
In Reply to: Is shallow breathing really undesired? posted by R. on June 13, 2003 at 14:33:08:
I can see the link here R. What I was told, and subsequently told, was that asthma was a condition of dehydration where the body shut down the main water [vapor] exchange unit (the lungs) in order to conserve water.
It stands to reason that deep breathing will aggravate the condition. The guru type that I had spoke with all insisted it was because my body wasn't "used to" deep breathing, This was untrue. As a graduate of the Silva Mind Control Method I was well versed in the technique called "belly breathing," where the "structure" of each breath comes not from chest and ribcage but from diaphramic pull and natural relaxation of the lungs for exhaust.
More water intake solved the "asthma" problem, but I am more sensitive to the relative humidity level where ever I am. It has not re-occured for about 15 years, but an extremely dirty or dusty room will trigger a form of it.
I am wondering R, why there is no mention of the wather-asthma link.
In Reply to: Is shallow breathing really undesired? posted by R. on June 13, 2003 at 14:33:08:
I can see the link here R. What I was told, and subsequently told, was that asthma was a condition of dehydration where the body shut down the main water [vapor] exchange unit (the lungs) in order to conserve water.
It stands to reason that deep breathing will aggravate the condition. The guru type that I had spoke with all insisted it was because my body wasn't "used to" deep breathing, This was untrue. As a graduate of the Silva Mind Control Method I was well versed in the technique called "belly breathing," where the "structure" of each breath comes not from chest and ribcage but from diaphramic pull and natural relaxation of the lungs for exhaust.
More water intake solved the "asthma" problem, but I am more sensitive to the relative humidity level where ever I am. It has not re-occured for about 15 years, but an extremely dirty or dusty room will trigger a form of it.
I am wondering R, why there is no mention of the wather-asthma link.
In Reply to: Is shallow breathing really undesired? (Former Asthmatic) posted by Gregory on June 13, 2003 at 18:08:33:
Interestingly, I've always used "belly breathing" and didn't have to learn it. In fact, I've read sometime ago that it was natural for males. And I do have what I think is above average control over my abdomen muscles. And I also have (when relaxed) what you'd call a small beer belly.
wather-asthma link
Did you mean water or weather? I'll assume water. I don't know. Perhaps, it would be useful (if not for you, then humankind maybe) for you to share your experience with Buteyko center. Maybe they could improve their success rates and gain more insight into asthma.
BTW, how much water do drink now?
In Reply to: Re: Is shallow breathing really undesired? (Former Asthmatic) posted by R. on June 13, 2003 at 18:38:50:
Ever since starting to drink milk, water intake has gone up to about 3 liters per day and I expect I will soon be scarfing down almost a gallon to a gallon and a half come summertime.
(yeah, I meant "water" last post)
If belly breathing were "natural" for males, I would think more males would do it. There would be less "Why do you breathe like that?" comments during casual conversation (or at least there would have been now that all my friends know why I do).
The beer-belly thing is funny. Everyone, especially women assume it is fat. I tell them to poke it, and they, thinking that their finger will sink in knuckle deep are surprised by taut muscle that doesn't give.
Mastery of the technique gave me, for some time not only a small beer belly, but also a "6 pack" and very good abdominal muscle control. After all this time it still feels more natural to breathe this way than any other, but it is a learned technique - not natural at all.
Follow Ups:
Is shallow breathing really undesired? (Former Asthmatic)
Posted by Gregory on June 13, 2003 at 18:08:33:
Mastery of the technique gave me, for some time not only a small beer belly, but also a "6 pack" and very good abdominal muscle control. After all this time it still feels more natural to breathe this way than any other, but it is a learned technique - not natural at all.
Follow Ups:
Re: Is shallow breathing really undesired? (Former Asthmatic)
Posted by R. on June 13, 2003 at 18:38:50:
Follow Ups:
Re: Is shallow breathing really undesired? (Former Asthmatic)
Posted by Gregory on June 13, 2003 at 18:56:18:
Follow Ups:
Re: Is shallow breathing really undesired?
Posted by Michele on June 13, 2003 at 19:58:39:
In Reply to: Re: Is shallow breathing really undesired? posted by R. on June 13, 2003 at 16:07:37:
R, What is your name? Are you male, female?
I'm back and can't add anything to the post - I'm depleted.
"so there". LOL
In Reply to: Re: Other studies say that technique is unorthadox posted by R. on June 13, 2003 at 15:53:59:
There are also a lot of people who were "helped" by blank placebo's.....
I am simply stating that a whole slew of holistic practioners feel that the "technique" is just a gimmick - that of course, if you are hypervenilating, the idea is to not gasp for air. They stated there was no basis. I am not saying there is no basis - just letting you know that not everyone is helped by this...it's probably about 50/50 - which is like when the weather people project- very iffy forecast.
In Reply to: Re: the irritable yoga teacher! posted by Michele on June 13, 2003 at 15:15:40:
I'm from Chicago area and would like to see an instructor like you. You're a hoot!
In Reply to: Re: Is shallow breathing really undesired? posted by Michele on June 13, 2003 at 19:58:39:
R, What is your name? Are you male, female?
What difference does it make, Michele? He is mine. Now go and DO your things like a good girl! lol j/k :)
In Reply to: Re: Is shallow breathing really undesired? (Former Asthmatic) posted by Gregory on June 13, 2003 at 18:56:18:
I just tell them "It's the shirt!" :)
In Reply to: Re: Is shallow breathing really undesired? (Former Asthmatic) posted by R. on June 14, 2003 at 00:34:29:
Well, thats not fair, R. You should really let them give you a little prod on your belly, just to make sure, you know. :)
In Reply to: Re: Other studies say that technique is unorthadox posted by michele on June 13, 2003 at 20:25:04:
I don't care about what some uneducated holistic dogs say about something they don't know. Anybody can obtain some jackass certificate and think of himself as a god damn expert in medicine. I've dealt with enough cattle to waste my time reading about their unjustified opinions. Either provide a logical argument why you think the method cannot not work and your explanation of their results or don't respond to this at all.
In Reply to: Re: Is shallow breathing really undesired? posted by Michele on June 13, 2003 at 19:58:39:
Genderless God R. is my full name.
When you've rejuvenated yourself and have something substantial to add to the thread, come back and post. Otherwise, don't feel obligated to do so. There are no winners or losers here. Except for people who believe you, of course. LOL
In Reply to: Re: Is shallow breathing really undesired? (Former Asthmatic) posted by Queenie on June 14, 2003 at 00:37:12:
Not fair that Gregory's getting it, and I am not? The problem is that it's mostly men who are audacious enough to question my anatomical structure. And I don't feel like letting them "feel" me. I thought my word should be enough. LOL
In Reply to: Re: Is shallow breathing really undesired? (Former Asthmatic) posted by R. on June 14, 2003 at 00:50:30:
The problem is that it's mostly men who are audacious enough
The women are probably admiring you from afar then, R.
Would you mind if I give your belly a light prod, just to be on the safe side 'n all? :)
In Reply to: Re: Is shallow breathing really undesired? (Former Asthmatic) posted by Queenie on June 14, 2003 at 01:12:24:
Sure, go ahead. I want you to be on the safe side :)
In Reply to: Re: Is shallow breathing really undesired? (Former Asthmatic) posted by R. on June 14, 2003 at 01:45:51:
(prod, prod, prod)
hmmm. hard and taut. just as I thought.
In Reply to: New Studies Link Decreased Immunity with Yoga Practice posted by Michele on June 13, 2003 at 08:48:07:
Thanks, Michele, but I think you meant to say "autoimmunity" rather than "immunity"
Walt
In Reply to: Re: New Studies Link Decreased Immunity with Yoga Practice posted by Walt Stoll on June 14, 2003 at 07:15:50:
NMI
In Reply to: Re: Other studies say that technique is unorthadox posted by R. on June 14, 2003 at 00:40:03:
You are emotion-based, not logic based.
In Reply to: Re: Is shallow breathing really undesired? posted by R. on June 14, 2003 at 00:45:29:
Wow - Then breathing shouldn't matter to you! Add something to the thread - oh what a hoot! YOU are off the SUBJECT of the post! LOL
In Reply to: Re: Is shallow breathing really undesired? posted by Queenie on June 14, 2003 at 00:34:25:
He/She is yours! LOL Queenie you are too funny! My husband now likes to call himself the Genderless God (since I told him) when it's time to take out the garbage since I say that it's "man's work" - darn R to come up with A good idea!
In Reply to: Re: Is shallow breathing really undesired? posted by Michele on June 14, 2003 at 08:56:14:
Heh. When its time to take out the garbage, pull the old "but its a mans job". I use it all the time, and it never fails. I look up at him with my most wide eyed, innocent stare I can pull off, and he falls for it. lol
Do you think it will work on God R???? :)
In Reply to: Re: Other studies say that technique is unorthadox posted by michele on June 14, 2003 at 08:53:30:
Why would you talk to yourself on a public board? Can't you do it in the privacy of your home or car?
In Reply to: Re: Is shallow breathing really undesired? posted by Queenie on June 14, 2003 at 09:05:00:
No, God R. is too self-aware to fall for these cheap tricks.
In Reply to: Re: Is shallow breathing really undesired? posted by Michele on June 14, 2003 at 08:56:14:
Tell your husband that my name is copyrighted and patented. He must cease to use it or pay royalties. Or he will suffer the full strength of my wrath!
In Reply to: Re: Is shallow breathing really undesired? posted by R. on June 14, 2003 at 17:00:22:
Oh. well then how about some not-so-cheap tricks???? Name your price.
In Reply to: Re: Is shallow breathing really undesired? posted by Queenie on June 14, 2003 at 20:44:43:
Are you trying to seduce me to reveal classified information?
In Reply to: Re: Is shallow breathing really undesired? posted by R. on June 15, 2003 at 00:26:12:
You answered a question, with a question.
Thats not how it works, R. :)
In Reply to: Re: Is shallow breathing really undesired? posted by Queenie on June 15, 2003 at 05:06:15:
Oh, that's it works, babe. That's how it works!! :)
In Reply to: Re: Is shallow breathing really undesired? posted by R. on June 15, 2003 at 15:28:40:
Missed one "how". Crap!
In Reply to: Re: Is shallow breathing really undesired? posted by R. on June 15, 2003 at 15:29:54:
See! Thats what happens when a peasant doesnt listen to Queenie! :) I will say again! Name your price!
In Reply to: Re: Is shallow breathing really undesired? posted by Queenie on June 16, 2003 at 01:46:01:
Ok, the eyeballing would have to be followed by something resembling what I'd imagine I'd get for removing the garbage.
In Reply to: Then shouldn't the title post be an INCREASE in Immunity...etcetra posted by Gregory on June 13, 2003 at 09:08:38:
Actually, I thought it was correct in it's original form, since autoimmune diseases are the result of an "overactive" immune system. Maybe this is one way to tame the immune system -- like taking an immunosuppressant such as methotrexate for the treatment of RA (which I did for TOO many years).
In Reply to: Re: Then shouldn't the title post be an INCREASE in Immunity...etcetra posted by Donna on June 16, 2003 at 16:08:11:
Thanks, Donna.
Technically you are right but that assumes that the immune system is a simple on/off m