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I finally have my GSR2 and am trying to figure out if I'm in alpha. I know it's relative for each person, but I was wondering if you have a sense for what kind of drop from normal sitting to alpha sitting or normal laying down to alpha laying down I should be looking for. I hope the answer is not "good luck"! By the way, I bought this specific item because of your (Robert) posts regarding it SO you'd better have a good answer--just kidding :). Thanks in advance.
In Reply to: Question for Robert McFerran or anyone else re GSR2 posted by Connie on November 03, 1999 at 09:39:52:
I don't have a GSR2 (Just an old Radio Shack Blue Box), so I used a search engine to search the web. I found the following package offered for $99.00. I assume that is something like what your bought.
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Everything you need to teach biofeedback is included in this one package. Unlike the other training kits on this page, this product can be self-directed. Includes the GSR 2, a hand held biofeedback device, four audio cassettes on stress and a workbook for planning goals and tracking progress. Developed by a psychologist at UCLA.
ABOUT THE GSR2
The GSR2 is easy to use. Just lay your hand down on the unit and it emits an audible pitch. As you focus your mind on relaxing thoughts, the pitch goes down. If tension returns, the pitch goes back up.
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If this describes what you got, then I'd assume the tapes would give you some hint what to expect. Since this unit just has a pitch that changes (no analog meter or digital readout), how could someone else tell you quantitatively how much it changes? I.E. what's a LOT of change vs a little change? I guess if the tone completely stopped, then that's a large change. Or else you died! ;-)
If it had a meter, then you could compare numbers. But I'm confused as how you can compare pitch changes, especially since it probably has a null control (at least I would hope it did) to set the starting frequency appropriate to you in your current stress state. Otherwise it might be above your audibility limit if you started out really stressed :-)
In Reply to: Question for Robert McFerran or anyone else re GSR2 posted by Connie on November 03, 1999 at 09:39:52:
Connie,
The GSR-2 doesn't tell you when you are in a specific brain rhythm. You would need a two thousand dollar machine to tell you that.
Fortunately we all go through a progression when we relax. Most of us start in beta (alert focused activity) and then move to alpha (alert yet NON-focused) and then to theta (conscious but not alert) and finally delta (most usually associated with sleeping).
Right now you will always find yourself starting in a beta mode and then moving into alpha as you learn to make the GSR tone drop. As you practice more you will become 'skilled' in moving the tone down and with it you will find that you can move into alpha/theta and beyond right into sleep!
Your objective will be to make the tone drop, ratchet the wheel to get the tone again, and then to make the tone drop again until you get to the point in each session where you've bottomed out and can't make it drop any further. If you are not asleep I guarantee you that you are in alpha. If you feel very close to sleep you'll be in alpha-theta.
I've tested the GSR against my own $2,400 machine with several different individuals (including myself) and have found that they always fall into the alpha/alpha-theta range when they 'bottom-out' in terms of pushing down the GSR tone.
You will get to the point where you 'bottom-out' rather quickly (within 5 minutes). You should turn off the GSR tone and start with some breathing or some guided imagery since you will be where you want to be.
Bob
In Reply to: Re: GSR2 - I'm confused how a person could hope to compare results with another person posted by RocketHealer Jim++ on November 03, 1999 at 14:00:13:
Thanks for spending the time and trying to help, Jim. I bought the GSR-2 without the tapes. The dial that you turn to adjust the pitch has numbers on it. My starting point is around 2.5 and it goes up to 9.25. I know that my starting or ending number won't match someone elses but was hoping that the amount of change or percent of change might give me a clue as to whether I'm in the right range, especially with someone who has the same model and has had biofeedback testing and knows what alpha feels like. (I guess I'm a cheapskate, or should I say that my hubby is trying to be wise and not spend money we don't have and I'm trying to not put pressure on him.) I was pretty sure (from questions I asked Walt) that I was in the right range, but the point where I "bottom out" (3)in lowering the tone is so close to the starting point that I started to question it. I seem to get the best alpha lying down on my magnetic mattress that cycles at 7.6 (?) and I haven't been able to use it recently, so I'll try that and see if I go much lower.
In Reply to: Re: Question for Robert McFerran or anyone else re GSR2 posted by Robert McFerran on November 03, 1999 at 15:15:37:
Thanks for your quick response. I just double checked my numbers; I start at 2.5 and bottom out at slightly more than 2.75. Does this make sense? It seems like such a tiny drop. A thought I had was to have my hubby check my reading while sleeping!!! Wouldn't that give me an indication of where delta falls on my GSR?
In Reply to: Re: GSR2 - I'm confused how a person could hope to compare results with another person posted by Connie on November 03, 1999 at 16:52:45:
Hi, Connie.
You are posting excellent questions. You are also pointing out one of the deficiencies of the $99 machine: Its range is not wide enough.
The $300 machine has resolved that problem and since you would only need it for a few weeks at most, its resale value more than makes up the difference in the price of the $99 machine.
Finally, you might try soaking the pads in saline (1/4 tsp of salt in a cup of water) before using them. The changes in the GSR readings are NOT due to sweat on the skin (in spite of what skeptics tend to use to protect their 16th century paradigm). It is due to a fundamental change in the conductivity of the skin itself. In YOUR case, this would move your range much higher on the GSR you have so as to give you more of a chance of seeing a wider change during SR practice.
Let us know how you do.
Walt
In Reply to: Re: GSR2 - I'm confused how a person could hope to compare results with another person (ARCHIVE under Biofeedback.) posted by Walt Stoll on November 04, 1999 at 09:14:59:
Thanks, Walt, for the ideas. I may decide to return this one and buy another. Anybody want to sell their used $300 machine??? I'm confused about the pads. My GSR has metal crevaces that you rest two fingers in. OR did you mean the pads (???) of my hands?? I'm guessing that a different GSR had pads. Perhaps I could wet a cloth and put it in the crevaces??? Maybe I should wrap a wet blanket around myself...Maybe... lol.
In Reply to: More questions re: GSR-2 Attn: Robert McFerran, Dr. Stoll posted by Connie on November 03, 1999 at 18:03:27:
In Reply to: The change this am was from 2.5 to 3.0. nmi posted by Connie again!! on November 04, 1999 at 09:44:58:
Hi Connie,
I am confused by your explanation of how you are using the numbers on the GSR.
I believe the numbers are really not relevant and the GSR will work the same way with no numbers at all on the dial. Slide the dial back and forth to its maximum and minimum stopping points then set it half way between (number would be around 5 if you're looking) In your normal alert state rest two fingers on the metal "dishes" and listen for the tone. Now turn the dial back and forth again to hear its most extreme tone vs. silence. Again, turn the dial til you hear a mid-point in that tone (not screamingly high and not too low) This number could end up being anything.
Now, begin your relaxation and hear how you are going in the right direction as the tone "drops". If it shuts off and you want to try to "go deeper" turn the dial up a little until you hear a tone again and then proceed to cause that tone to drop.
The GSR gives you something to "interact" with to help you teach your thoughts/mind/body what to do (biofeedback) It is not an absolute measure of anything. It just compares one moment of brain activity to the one that came before and the one that comes next.
Disregard numbers!
In Reply to: Re: GSR2 - I'm confused how a person could hope to compare results with another person (ARCHIVE under Biofeedback.) posted by Walt Stoll on November 04, 1999 at 09:14:59:
Walt,
What is/where do we find the $300 GSR machine you're always talking about? I'd be will to buy one new if I knew what I was looking for.
just...
curious
In Reply to: Re: GSR2 - I'm confused how a person could hope to compare results with another person (ARCHIVE under Biofeedback.) posted by Connie on November 04, 1999 at 09:37:53:
Hi, Connie.
The good ones have pads that are fastened to the fingers.
The metal grooves are not very sensitive.
With metal grooves, I would soak my fingers in the saline solution for about 15 minutes and then dry the surface of the fingers carefully with a cloth. See what kind of reading you get then.
Walt
In Reply to: Re: GSR2 - I'm confused how a person could hope to compare results with another person (ARCHIVE under Biofeedback.) posted by Walt Stoll on November 05, 1999 at 15:26:32:
Ornery suggestion! :-)
Seriously, 15 minutes of soaking sounds like a very long time to me. You would get salty dishwater fingers. And 15 minutes is approaching the 20 minutes you plan to do SR typically. Seems to me that a quick wipe with salt water would do nearly as good as a 15 minute soak. But I've never tried it.
In Reply to: Re: $300 GSR machine posted by curious on November 04, 1999 at 11:45:19:
Curious,
I really thought that that was convered in the biofeedback archives. One place where you could start is at aapb@resource center.com
Let us know what you learn.
Walt
In Reply to: Re: How 'bout soaking then in collodial Silver for even higher conductivity! :-) posted by RocketHealer Jim++ on November 05, 1999 at 15:40:30:
Actually, Jim, you caught me!
I have no idea whether this will work at all but from what I DO understand about the process it might just save her $300 so why not try?
For this to work, though, it would have to involve the dermis and that is why the long soak.
I will be interested in how this works out.
Walt
In Reply to: Re: $300 GSR machine posted by Walt Stoll on November 05, 1999 at 16:08:51:
Walt,
Actually, I read the ENTIRE biofeedback archives, and it's not mentioned. Many other machines are mentioned, but not the elusive $300 model that you are constantly talking about (unless I missed it; there was a lot to read).
I will do some research at the address you listed, and let you know what I find out.
In Reply to: Re: $300 GSR machine posted by curious on November 08, 1999 at 10:59:36:
curious, I too am on a hunt for a GSR in this price range. I checked out the site Walt mentioned--no luck. I even called them to make sure. Please be sure to post any leads you find and I'll do the same. Thanks!
In Reply to: Re: $300 GSR machine posted by Walt Stoll on November 05, 1999 at 16:08:51:
Walt,
Well, I've been searching for quite some time today for the GSR machine you mention - but it would be nice to have some specifics on it.
First of all, the aapb site is no help. Then all the sites I could find that sold GSR machines weren't much help either. I can find GSR2's in the $60 range, then you go on to the better GSR machines, and there's quite a jump in price up to $700-800, and even up to $1200 & $2000. I saw an EDA monitor for $150, an EMG biofeedback machine for $120, and an EDG module for $260. Recommendations?
I'm not trying to be critical, but I guess my point is, if you're going to recommend something so widely, please tell us where to find it (or at least give us the specifics about it, so we will know what to look for).
still...
curious
In Reply to: Re: $300 GSR machine - search completed with no luck posted by curious on November 08, 1999 at 23:07:59:
I too have been on the hunt! I'm sure curious found the ThoughtStream which ranges in price from $99 to $159. I'll try to put the link at the bottom--have never done this so... Also found something called CEO, but it costs $600 and uses ear clips. Will try to give you the link. At least the ThoughtStream seems to have finger probes. Any thoughts? Thanks a zillion. Anybody out there want to sell or rent theirs?????
In Reply to: Re: $300 GSR machine - search completed with no luck posted by curious on November 08, 1999 at 23:07:59:
Yeah!!! The link for the CEO worked! Wonders of wonders, miracles of ....
In Reply to: Re: $300 GSR machine - search completed with no luck posted by curious on November 08, 1999 at 23:07:59:
Wow! I think I'll keep sending links. Just kidding. :)
The EDA is the second from the bottom of the page.
In Reply to: Re: $300 GSR machine posted by curious on November 08, 1999 at 10:59:36:
Hi, Curious and Connie.
Just goes to show we are not perfect!
I am surprised that the many people who have posted where to get these have not posted again to direct you. I know that we had about 10 of these in my office so we could rent them out to those who wanted to not have to buy one.
Twenty years ago, they were about $260 each and I figured with inflation AND the fact that they (like computers) continue to get less expensive as time goes on, I just came up with $300 as a good round figure for what they would be right now.
NOW, having made that admission, I would have to contact the major manufacturers and the national organizations--all of who MUST know this information whether they are willing to share it or not--to get this information just like anyone else.
I have not actually bought one for more than 15 years and even then, it was my biofeedback instructor who did the buying so I only signed the checks. I really have no idea why the references I have given would not share what they know.
I DO know of a place where one can get a KIT for a good machine that costs $82. To MY knowledge, this would be comparable to the ones I thought might cost about $300 now. Anyone able to read directions and use a small automatic soldering iron should have no trouble putting it together. Contact (800) 334-5551. Let us know what you learn.
Sorry for the trouble.
Walt
In Reply to: Re: $300 GSR machine ( A fairy tale???) posted by Walt Stoll on November 09, 1999 at 11:36:28:
If the picture does not work, it's because they keep it on their SECURE server! :-)
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Walt, I figured out (without calling it! - since I had no earthly idea what to ask them for if I called!) that that 800 number you gave us is Carolina Online. They have an on-line catalog of scientific stuff.
What I believe you referred to (based on searching their site and the exact price of $82) is their $82 GSR-2 Biofeedback device. It's the GSR-2 and a casette tape. No mention of it being a kit version at all.
I know that you tell us that you will NOT do all our research for us, but this seemed like a merry chase indeed to send people on.
So perhaps I'm spoiling the chase a little!
RHJ++
In Reply to: Re: $300 GSR machine - search completed with no luck posted by curious on November 08, 1999 at 23:07:59:
Hi, Curious and Connie.
Please see my note to you both earlier today.
Why should biofeedback machines be such a closely held secret?
If you EVER looked inside one of these machines, they are about $10 worth of components and a fancy box. It sounds like my suggestion of a KIT may be the best defense against this kind of system.
MAYBE the manufacturing system is trying to cowtow to the professionals to keep them out of the hands of people?
Walt
In Reply to: Re: What a merry chase you lead us on! posted by RocketHealer Jim++ on November 09, 1999 at 12:09:50:
.
In Reply to: Re: $300 GSR machine - search completed with no luck posted by Walt Stoll on November 09, 1999 at 12:10:21:
The Government got into the act. See link below for the simple reason we can find "toy" GSRs and multi-thousand $$ units and little/nothing in-between.
In Reply to: Re: $300 GSR machine - search completed with no luck posted by Walt Stoll on November 09, 1999 at 12:10:21:
I found a WONDERFUL GSR machine (linked below).
It's well worth looking at their web site to read all about GSR and what a really good GSR machine would be/do.
Unfortunately, this one is $795, so I'll be amazed if too many people here will rush right out and buy one.
PLUS - They have an on-line manual worth checking out: Transforming the Mind http://www.trans4mind.com/transformation/ "a manual that aims to describe the process of human conditioning and how to achieve an awakening from this imposition. We are born in a body with animal instincts, we carry the baggage of past lives (it seems) and to add to this we develop survival solutions upon the lines of our racial culture, and according to our particular upbringing and experiences.
This is a complex and tangled mixture but it is possible to separate out these strands and to find our true identity. In so doing we also discover the reasons why friendships break down, marriages go sour and misunderstandings occur, why life may contain more stress than pleasure and why our purposes in life become obscured. With this knowledge we can transform our minds - and that is the prerequisite to fundamental change for the better."
Enjoy!
RHJ++
In Reply to: Re: $795 GSR machine - The Clarity Meter posted by RocketHealer Jim++ on November 09, 1999 at 14:57:47:
The Clarity Meter looks great--but very spendy as you noted. Here's a link to a Temperature/GSR meter BUT there's a waiting list to April 2000. I e-mailed the business to see if that's changed at all. I'm posting this so that when someone else is looking in the future they can check this source.
In Reply to: Re: What a merry chase you lead us on! posted by RocketHealer Jim++ on November 09, 1999 at 12:09:50:
Hi, RocketHealer Jim.
WELL! I wrote this one down wrong on my rolodex. Perhaps if you use your magical way of finding things, you can track down the guy who posted the $82 kit for the good GSR. He posted this within the past year (to my memory). I had hoped that it was posted to the archives but I did not start to add my suggestions about archiving until Bill suggested it and that was just about the time that he stopped archiving at all.
Hope springs eternal...........
Namaste`
Walt
In Reply to: Re: Why we can no longer find a $300 GSR machine posted by RocketHealer Jim++ on November 09, 1999 at 14:42:17:
Thanks, RHJ!
That certainly makes sense to me! Trust the government (No doubt lobbied by the AMA so as to avoid people helping themselves.) to take a totally safe machine and make it so expensive that no one but a professional can afford it.
SO, from now on, I will say that everyone has to find an enlightened biofeedback instructor who will test them. Of course, now that the machines are so expensive, the instructor will have to charge twice as much as before.
All the ones we used used 2 nine-volt batteries and had no possible way they could harm anyone.
A lot of people are saying that the Microsoft suit by the government will produce similar problems for consumers.
Thanks, Uncle Sam!!!!!!!!!
Walt
In Reply to: Re: What a merry chase you lead us on! (This is not "leading" it is stumbling.) posted by Walt Stoll on November 10, 1999 at 11:52:54:
Well I found it. Not directly, but indirectly in the SR Archives (linked below):
" I found a GSR BIOFEEDBACK MONITOR from Carolina Science and Math. I had an old catalog from them. The Kit is $82.00 and is a very compact self contained portible monitor. The tone lowers as you relax. It also has a earphone for privacy. It has a instruction booklet and a "clinically designed learning program" on tape. It includes the 9 volt battery needed. It is going to take a couple weeks to get here. I will let you know how it is. Carolina's # is 1-800-334-5551. "
As Inspector Clousseau used to say, "The Mystery is solveeeeed!"
In Reply to: Re: $795 GSR machine - The Clarity Meter posted by RocketHealer Jim++ on November 09, 1999 at 14:57:47:
Hi, RHJ.
This looks suspiciously like the "Clearing Machine" used by Scientology Practitioners. It IS a quality instrument and pretty rugged since it is designed to be carried around.
Yes, RHJ, this is another of those things I studied over the years (grin).
"Clearing" does work for most people but it is expensive.
Walt
In Reply to: Another $272 option after April 2000 posted by Connie on November 09, 1999 at 16:39:22:
Hi, Connie.
Unfortunately, the temperature meters are among the slowest to respond to the "relaxation response" which is why I do not recommend them. If you were walking down a windy path at night you would want to know if you were off the path the first step you made in the wilderness----NOT after you had wandered for a while. This is the beauty of the GSR, it tells you right away.
The GSR guts in this machine are the same as the cheapy GSRs that so many people find in catalogs.
Walt
In Reply to: Re: When a "Kit" means several things in a box, vs components you must solder together posted by RocketHealer Jim++ on November 10, 1999 at 12:30:31:
Jim, all of that description sounds like the GSR-2. Could it be that that's what they're sending you? Hope not!
In Reply to: Re: When a "Kit" means several things in a box, vs components you must solder together posted by Connie on November 11, 1999 at 08:44:46:
I did not order it.
Someone else did, some time ago, but apparently they either never got back with us to tell us about it, or I just did not recognize their name when they did.
In Reply to: Re: $300 GSR machine - search completed with no luck posted by Walt Stoll on November 09, 1999 at 12:10:21:
Walt, thanks for your comments on the Temperature/GSR machine. Would you mind looking at this one? It's close to the price range when bought from Dynamind. It's called the CEO and I believe it's second from the bottom on the page I'm sending you to. It is not a GSR though, but it's a "poor man's Wave Rider" and evidently they're pretty good. Truth??? THANKS!!!
In Reply to: Potential SR machine posted by Connie on November 11, 1999 at 09:27:01:
I looked at that site briefly. It says something about how it is used with any other James Device.
My interpretation of that is that it is some sort of transducer/interface to use with another readout device (sold separately!). So for the money ($150), you don't get any readout, but just what you see.
Forewarned is ForeArmed!
In Reply to: Re: I think it's NOT stand-alone/complete! posted by RocketHealer Jim++ on November 11, 1999 at 09:48:39:
The product I'm talking about is the CEO(e-mail for price) not the EDA($150). (The EDA is second from the bottom and the CEO is fourth from the top--my mistake.) The David paradise products mentioned in the EDA write-up are light/sound machines. The guy I talked to on the phone felt that for the bucks the ThoughtStream was better than the EDA.
The CEO is "a class above" the GSR2/ThoughtStream/EDA. You have to supply the computer and sound card. I think it tells you more exactly if you're in alpha. I believe it can measures signals from the brain, heart, or muscles. The more expensive machines can measure several of these at once, and also have a GSR channel, whereas on this you choose one without the GSR option. I think I have the right info--before anybody were to purchase this, doublecheck. There's a xx day satisfaction guarantee with a xx% restocking fee if it's returned.
In Reply to: Potential SR machine posted by Connie on November 11, 1999 at 09:27:01:
Hi, Connie.
I like the "EDA Bioscan" for $150 and the "Thoughtstream" for $99.95.
By the way, the "MindSet" is the old "Mind Mirror" I have discussed on this BB for years as what one needs to develop reliable healing powers,etc. It is now half the price it was 20 years ago.
Thanks for all this information!
Walt
In Reply to: Re: GSR2 - I'm confused how a person could hope to compare results with another person (ARCHIVE under Biofeedback.) posted by Walt Stoll on November 04, 1999 at 09:14:59:
For some reason, today I'm feeling like the little two year old who is always asking "Why?"! I think I've repressed these "whys?" and now that I asked one, the rest are tumbling out. So here goes:
Why would a more expensive GSR be better than the less expensive? You said above that the range is bigger. What difference does that make? I can make the GSR move but I want to know (and may never know! :)) if that's enough movement? If the range is bigger, I'll still end up with the same question. I'm guessing that you'll say "true--that's why my main suggestion is that you go to a biofeedback expert". But it seems that from posts I've read in the past, even they say that they can't really tell if you're in an alpha state. So maybe I should just trust my body-mind and say that the coldness/almost dropping the spoon/tingling face are enough data. BUT like you say I don't want to waste months of 40 plus minutes a day doing something that isn't right. ?????????????? :) Thanks Again!
In Reply to: Why is a more expensive GSR better? posted by Connie on November 13, 1999 at 12:30:34:
Hi, Connie.
I wish this were as easy to explain as the "feeling cold" question was. Perhaps it is because I understand how the bodymind works a LOT better than I do the GSR?
I like to use the simile (Even though it still does not explain the why.) of: If you were trying to navigate a winding and unknown path in the dark, would you sooner have a bright flashlight with a wide field or a dim one with a narrow field? The wider the range, the more the instrument will change with small changes in the person. The sooner you know if you are on (or off) the path, the easier it will be for you to learn the skill.
Hope this helps.
Walt
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