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I know you say the 300 machines are more sensitive than the 100 ones but that the 100 ones can be used. I found 3 of them online: Can you tell me if any of these are ok for me to use at home to test my SR? I have links to them if that would help but they all look similar with the 2 finger slots! Thanks.
1) The GSR Temp 2X Biofeedback Relaxation System
* Easy to use, ergonomically shaped, compact & portable - uses only one 9V battery (included).
* Audio and visual feedback; dual sensitivity analog meter (for visual feedback) included.
* Includes: Temperature sensor, body sensor, ear bud, thermometer, GSR 2X, training cassette, battery
* Includes rugged hard shell carry case. Foam fitted to securely carry and store all items.
* One Year Manufacturer's Warranty. 30 Day Satisfaction Guarantee. Ships in 1-2 business days.
2) Relaxation - GSR 2 with Calmlink Software
* Measures minute changes in skin pore size and sweat gland activity as it relates to tension.
* Ideal for personal use
* Full feature graphics display
* Pacman style game that speeds up and slows down as you relax
* CalmLink is the GSR2 Interface software for relaxation and stress control.
3) GSR Temp 2X
* small, hand-held and self contained GSR2 is a Galvanic Skin Response monitoring device for home biofeedback plus analog meter and thermal sensor.
* The GSR 2 precisely monitors your stress levels by translating tiny tension-related changes in skin pores into a rising or falling tone.
* Biofeedback is a training approach that helps you learn to develop greater control over your mind-body connection. It is used in hospitals and clinics, schools and homes to help individuals learn to relax when tapes, meditation, hypnosis and other approaches have not worked.
In Reply to: For Walt : GRS machines! posted by Steven [280.3210] on December 26, 2006 at 23:56:10:
Steven,
Costs for different machines?
Walt
In Reply to: Re: For Walt : GRS machines! posted by Walt Stoll [93.1889] on December 27, 2006 at 08:12:46:
They are all in the 130 dollars range.
In Reply to: Re: For Walt : GRS machines! posted by Steven [280.3210] on December 27, 2006 at 14:43:23:
Thanks, Steven.
I think you could get as much good, for half the price, at Radio Shack.
Walt
In Reply to: Re: For Walt : GRS machines! posted by Walt Stoll [93.1889] on December 28, 2006 at 07:05:02:
So you think I should go with the radio shack one then?
In Reply to: Re: For Walt : GRS machines! posted by Steven [280.3210] on December 28, 2006 at 12:40:47:
Why not, Steven.
Not much invested and will help most people.
By the way, what does GRS stand for? I am assuming that you really mean GSR.
Walt
In Reply to: Re: For Walt : GRS machines! posted by Walt Stoll [93.1889] on December 28, 2006 at 13:52:35:
Yes! It was a typo.
I went to Radio Shack's site and don't see one listed there.
I looked at these 3 because they are on Amazon.com. They had detailed descriptions so I thought that would help you decide.
In Reply to: Re: For Walt : GRS machines! posted by Steven [280.3210] on December 28, 2006 at 15:14:17:
Steve-I rewrote this msg so it makes more sense.
I ended up preferring the Thoughtstream (~$130). It has audio feedback, visual feedback (with colored bars) and a wrist strap sensor.
A wrist strap sensor is more relaxing than a finger rest. With a finger rest, it's stressful to keep your fingers in it. With a wrist strap you can "set it and forget it"--you're free to move your arms & hands around in the session.
Audio feedback is more appropriate for SR than is visual feedback. With visual feedback (as on a meter) you must keep your eyes open for the whole session or else be thinking, "Should I peek now?"--not relaxing.
One way I did find visual feedback useful for SR is that you can note "before" and "after". Some units do this and some don't--the Thoughtstream with its colored bars, does. Keep in mind that all measurement on these devices is relative, not absolute, so you still don't know if you dropped to alpha/theta--you still must "deduce" it by how it feels, etc., but this is a very good tool for your "toolkit". IMO anything close to a 9 level drop is almost a sure bet that you did reach alpha. Course that's not "real-time feedback" which is what you bought it for, but it's still useful.
(am not a Thoughtstream shill)
In Reply to: Re: For Walt : GSR machines! posted by Jan S. [3541.19] on December 28, 2006 at 16:43:23:
Im' not sure if it was.
In Reply to: Re: Is that one of the three I posted? posted by Steven [280.3210] on December 28, 2006 at 19:50:01:
I'm not sure either. Some of these machines can be similar to one another in their features.
Comparing to my favorite this is my guess:
1) possibly has all features of Thoughtstream, or more
2) maybe equivalent..
3) sounds like No.
Got links?
In Reply to: Re: Is that one of the three I posted? posted by Jan S. [3541.19] on December 28, 2006 at 20:42:21:
All on Amazon.com when I put in GSR!
http://www.amazon.com/FutureHealth-Inc-GSR-Temp-2X/dp/B000255IW8/sr=8-1/qid=1167361047/ref=pd_bbs_1/002-9250324-1844055?ie=UTF8&s=hpc
http://www.amazon.com/GSR-Temp-Biofeedback-Relaxation-System/dp/B000KL4ADM/sr=8-30/qid=1167361083/ref=sr_1_30/002-9250324-1844055?ie=UTF8&s=hpc
http://www.amazon.com/Relaxation-GSR-2-Calmlink-Software/dp/B00023LVTE/sr=8-6/qid=1167361132/ref=sr_1_6/002-9250324-1844055?ie=UTF8&s=miscellaneous
In Reply to: Re: For Walt : GRS machines! posted by Steven [280.3210] on December 28, 2006 at 15:14:17:
Thanks, Steven.
I guess Radio Shack was not making enough money on their little unit. One would think that, as biofeedback became more well known that the prices would begin to come down. Unfortunately it looks like the rule is "all the traffic will bear". Perhaps the strategy is get one before the price goes up even more?
Let us know what you learn.
Walt
In Reply to: Re: For Walt : GRS machines! posted by Walt Stoll [93.1889] on December 29, 2006 at 07:04:14:
So then out of those 3 I listed, which would be the best for me?
You always speak about the prices but don't go into detail about which type to get. People jack up prices so it could be 300 dollars for one which is really worth 100 and you are getting ripped off or 100 for one that is worth more at a bargain price. Tough to tell without a description of what to look for from you.
In Reply to: Re: Is that one of the three I posted? posted by Steven [280.3210] on December 28, 2006 at 20:59:13:
Only #2 looks *possibly* comparable to the Thoughtstream which I personally prefer for the reasons I stated.
- "body sensors for hands-free use"
(not sure what this means but I like the sound of it)
- Calmlink software could track a session
Your mileage may vary, as they say.
In Reply to: Re: Is that one of the three I posted? posted by Jan S. [3541.3218] on December 29, 2006 at 15:11:35:
here's the problem with me though. I listen with stereo headphone to brainsync. So how could I do audio feedback? And the problem with video is what you said (opening your eyes).
In Reply to: Re: Is that one of the three I posted? posted by Steven [280.3210] on December 29, 2006 at 16:02:15:
Rig up a signal combiner...
In Reply to: Re: Is that one of the three I posted? posted by Jan S. [3541.19] on December 29, 2006 at 16:09:58:
No clue what that means or how to do lol.
In Reply to: Re: Is that one of the three I posted? posted by Steven [280.3210] on December 29, 2006 at 16:24:37:
Save brainsync as a WAV file on your computer. While playing it have the audio from the Thoughtstream routed into your sound card. Mix the two signals, so you get both combined going out to your headphones..
A while back I thought of doing this with Holosync, haven't actually tried it. Wonder if the result would be calming or irritating... Seems like it should work though. You'd need some looooong cables so as not to be tied to your computer for the session.
In Reply to: Re: Is that one of the three I posted? posted by Jan S. [3541.19] on December 29, 2006 at 16:53:09:
I was under the impression doing that well nullify the effect of the Brainsync.I know transfering any music makes it lose something.
In Reply to: Re: Is that one of the three I posted? posted by Steven [280.3210] on December 29, 2006 at 17:11:24:
Yes, the sound can degrade if transferred to a compressed format (such as MP3*) but if you use WAV, it's an exact digital copy. (Must be recording it to computer from a CD not a tape of course)
* the MP3 compression strips out "unnecessary" frequencies - it would consider binaural beats unnecessary. Course there are so many ways to record MP3, it depends how badly it would degrade. I have heard of some people using mp3s of Holosync but I wouldn't want to chance it.
In Reply to: Re: Is that one of the three I posted? posted by Jan S. [3541.19] on December 29, 2006 at 17:25:19:
Is this the one you meant?
http://www.amazon.com/Mind-Modulations-Thoughtstream-Biofeedback-Device/dp/B000B6IT8I/sr=11-1/qid=1167434708/ref=sr_11_1/105-0415951-2142855
If so, this has visual? Does it have speakers?
In Reply to: Re: Is that one of the three I posted? posted by Steven [280.3210] on December 29, 2006 at 17:26:01:
That's it. The visual is the vertical bar. As you go more relaxed, it drops to 1. If it needs to go below 1, it starts over at the top with a new bar. At the end of the session you ask it to show how much total drop you 'achieved.' 4 would mean you dropped 4 whole levels (not 4 within one level).
It doesn't come with speakers but with its audio output you can add them.
In Reply to: Re: For Walt : GRS machines! posted by Steven [280.3210] on December 29, 2006 at 10:48:06:
Steven,
I do not think it matters. In general the fewer "bells and whistles" the better.
Walt
In Reply to: Re: For Walt : GRS machines! posted by Walt Stoll [93.1889] on December 30, 2006 at 06:36:01:
So which of the 3 I posted then?
Or how about this one?
http://www.amazon.com/Mind-Modulations-Thoughtstream-Biofeedback-Device/dp/B000B6IT8I/sr=11-1/qid=1167434708/ref=sr_11_1/105-0415951-2142855
In Reply to: Re: For Walt : GRS machines! posted by Steven [280.3210] on December 30, 2006 at 11:21:01:
http://www.amazon.com/Mind-Modulations-Thoughtstream-Biofeedback-Device/dp/B000B6IT8I/sr=11-1/qid=1167434708/ref=sr_11_1/105-0415951-2142855
In Reply to: For Walt : GRS machines! posted by Steven [280.3210] on December 26, 2006 at 23:56:10:
Steven,
I borrowed one of these feedback things you attach to your finger or something from a friend one time to try to test my relaxation response. The device had some kind of shrill alarm that you were supposed to try to bring down with relaxation. I had that thing off my finger and back in the box in about 2 seconds. My husband played with it a little and was able to lower the tone some as he relaxed, but I wanted nothing else to do with it. Just my opinion, but the thing was horrible and in no way conducive to relaxation. I would suggest trying to find something that doesn't have an audible shrill alarm tone.
Have you tried looking on e-bay for these things? Maybe you could find something inexpensive there.
Wishing you the best,
Nutmeg
In Reply to: Re: For Walt : GRS machines! posted by Steven [280.3210] on December 30, 2006 at 11:21:01:
Thanks, Steven.
Lots of bells and whistles but these guys are doing a pretty good job of making sure that no simple and inexpensive GSR is available--a form of monopolistic price fixing--in my opinion.
Why not try it? Some of the bells and whistles may even be helpful to you. Let us know of your experience. When you stand back and look at it, it is a pretty small investment for it's potential for helping.
Walt
In Reply to: Re: For Walt : GRS machines! Archive. posted by Walt Stoll [93.1889] on December 31, 2006 at 07:18:54:
Because I don't want to waste 100+ dollars if something is plain garbage.
I attached a link so you can look at it. Is this machine valid enough to work for me?
In Reply to: Re: Is that one of the three I posted? posted by Jan S. [3541.3218] on December 29, 2006 at 18:13:15:
I may try it. I asked Walt what he thinks about it but I have yet to get a straight answer from him.
In Reply to: Re: For Walt : GRS machines! Archive. posted by Steven [280.3210] on December 31, 2006 at 10:31:43:
Steven,
I reviewed the information before I responded. I have littld doubt that the unit works as advertized. Of course, anything one buys from sources unknown can be a scam.
Walt
In Reply to: Re: For Walt : GRS machines! Archive. posted by Walt Stoll [93.1889] on January 01, 2007 at 07:24:35:
But is there sources that are good then? If yes, then where?
In Reply to: Re: For Walt : GRS machines! Archive. posted by STeven [280.3210] on January 01, 2007 at 14:05:40:
Steven,
MY sources have all been professional which, though of high quality, are GROSSLY over priced.
My recommendations have always been to try to avoid the biofeedback route if possible: Relaxation Workbook and professional biofeedback evaluation.
The biofeedback archives have the contact information for professional machines and, if one insists upon going that way (very effective) one can always resell the machine on EBay, etc, when no longer needed.
In my opinion, nonprofessional machines are mostly "toys". However, even these toys can be helpful to some people.
Hope this helps.
Walt
In Reply to: Re: For Walt : GRS machines! Archive. posted by Walt Stoll [93.1889] on January 02, 2007 at 07:58:21:
Well I have looked in them and don't see anything reasonable.
But I DID find a post in the archives where you say that you like 2 machines : EDA Bioscan (which is like 200 bucks) and the Thoughtstream one (which is the link i gave you at 120 bucks).
Here is a link to the EDA machine on Amazon.com as you already have the link for the other one in the other post.
Do you still feel that BOTH these machines are good?
In Reply to: Re: For Walt : GRS machines! Archive. posted by Steven [280.3210] on January 02, 2007 at 12:09:07:
Yeah, Steven.
The only thing is that even though BOTH are vastly overpriced, in MY opinion, the professional one is MORE overpriced just because it is "professional".
Walt
In Reply to: Re: For Walt : GRS machines! posted by Nutmeg [4785.74] on December 30, 2006 at 12:39:50:
Which one?
In Reply to: Re: For Walt : GRS machines! Archive. posted by Walt Stoll [93.1889] on January 03, 2007 at 06:56:53:
So which one do you recommend?
In Reply to: Re: For Walt : GRS machines! posted by Steven [280.3210] on January 03, 2007 at 12:14:26:
Sorry, Steven, it was quite a while ago and I have no idea which one it was. It was all in a box--some type of kit for learning how to relax. Probably also came with a booklet and audio tapes or something.
Can you locate something second-hand, from ebay or other auction site, so you don't have to spend so much money trying it out?
In Reply to: Re: For Walt : GRS machines! posted by Nutmeg [4785.74] on January 03, 2007 at 12:25:52:
I've checked already on ebay.
Now it's a matter of which is good. I know Walt says to do it but he never clearly states "this one is good" and everything else is vague so you end up secondguessing.
In Reply to: Re: For Walt : GRS machines! Archive. posted by Steven [280.3210] on January 03, 2007 at 12:14:43:
Steve,
If money is no object the professional one is what I am familiar with. If money IS an object, I would get the other. However, I still would put at the top of my list, exhausting the many choices in the Workbook and having one or two sessions with a professional to check on what is working.
Walt
In Reply to: Re: For Walt : GRS machines! Archive. posted by Steven [280.3210] on January 03, 2007 at 12:14:43:
Steve,
If money is no object the professional one is what I am familiar with. If money IS an object, I would get the other. However, I still would put at the top of my list, exhausting the many choices in the Workbook and having one or two sessions with a professional to check on what is working.
Walt
In Reply to: Re: For Walt : GRS machines! Archive. posted by Walt Stoll [93.1889] on January 04, 2007 at 06:43:38:
Have the workbook and been through it. But I don't believe one visit will be enough for me. I won't be able to relax in some office. I have asked about renting and no one has said yes.
So this is my option as of now.
It's tough to find as no one can tell me what is a "good one".
And money IS an object.
In Reply to: Re: For Walt : GRS machines! Archive. posted by Steven [280.3210] on January 04, 2007 at 12:31:23:
I bought one 14 yrs ago, used it 2-3 times, and never used it since. You definitely don't want to invest a lot of money in one, unless you plan to use it in business or test all your friends :)
I have a "good one". It cost $450 in 1993. It has a bunch of dials on it and even will do optional audio so you can tell what's happening with your eyes closed.
Bill
In Reply to: Re: For Walt : GRS machines! Archive. posted by Bill [5278.3211] on January 04, 2007 at 20:21:45:
Bill,
Sorry to interrupt, but I'm curious what method you use now for SR?
Thanks
In Reply to: Re: For Walt : GRS machines! Archive. posted by Steven [280.3210] on January 04, 2007 at 12:31:23:
Yeah, Steven.
Since our primary goal, when I was in practice, was not making money and WAS to make it as easy and inexpensive as possible for the patient to accomplish their goals, renting a professional grade machine was a very unusual option back then and about as unusual now. It seemed only natural to me and was very effective.
Walt
In Reply to: Re: For Walt : GRS machines! Archive. posted by Bill [5278.3211] on January 04, 2007 at 20:21:45:
I can't find anything definitive on here on what to get or what is needed to qualify as a good one?
In Reply to: Re: For Walt : GRS machines! Archive. posted by howdy [5990.1351] on January 04, 2007 at 20:28:53:
I don't do SR regularly. My training came from Kripalu meditation sessions and Silva Mind Control. When I do SR, I usually start with a Silva-style countdown, then move into Kripalu-style focusing on the breath to bring me back when my mind wanders. Besides the breath, I focus on my abdominals since that is where I hold most of my tension. When I start to feel things moving down there, I know I have reached alpha state or close to it.
Bill
In Reply to: Re: For Walt : GRS machines! Archive. posted by Steven [280.3210] on January 05, 2007 at 14:34:10:
Steven, You said in another messages that someone told you the Thoughtstream "isn't sensitive enough" - who said that, and did they say what they meant by it?
I'm thinking it could mean (1) they found it mechanically just not accurate (in other words defective) or else (2) they don't understand the use of the scale. Even after dropping all the levels within a session you can reset the meter back to the top level and keep descending. In that way, there's no limit to the sensitivity.
BTW I saw a Thoughtstream for 79 dollars at a site called luxevivant dot com. It's without the Mental Games software--which is not necessary for SR anyway.
I'm not "pushing" this machine on you. I stopped using mine about two years ago. It was helpful and I learned from it but it didn't answer the brainwave question, which no GSR can. (I'm going to ask a question separately to Walt about it when I get a chance later today.)
BTW thank you for raising these questions. I'm out of practice and want to start using this again.
In Reply to: Re: For Walt : GRS machines! Archive. posted by Bill [5278.3211] on January 06, 2007 at 09:13:18:
Thanks Bill, it sounds like a very effective method.
In Reply to: Re: For Walt : GRS machines! Archive. posted by Steven [280.3210] on January 05, 2007 at 14:34:10:
My understanding is that a GSR simply gives you an indication of whether you are moving in the direction of alpha or in the direction of beta. No GSR will indicate that your brain is in an alpha rhythm. However, I believe it is safe to say that if you are attached to a GSR and the tone/needle doesn't drop, or drops only slightly, your method of SR is not working.
I'm not sure what kind of machine you need to check for your brain being in alpha. Perhaps an EEG but I'm sure those are prohibitively expensive, not to mention challenging to attach those electrodes to the right place on your head!
Here is a link that may help you narrow down what a "good" GSR is:
One key distinction the FDA site points out is that a GOOD device is temporarily attached to the skin so the pressure stays constant, giving accurate feedback. By that rule, this device is not a good choice.
This site sells a Thoughtstream for $104 with a 30-day guarantee. The site isn't very clear about whether the palm sensor is attached or not. Buy it and find out if it serves you, and if not, send it back