Metabolic Type and ER4YT Diets archives

Blood Type and Hunter-Gatherer Diet

Posted by Joseph Hackett on November 16, 1998 at 00:23:18:

I have primarily been a "lurker" on this board, although I follow the posts here regularly and continue to learn from them. Dr. Stoll, I admire your persistance and am glad you're here.

From time to time I have seen posts concerning the EY4YT diet versus the "biobalance"/blood plasma ph approach and I'd like to put in my 2 cents for people to consider.

For the past year, I have had the good fortune to work with Bob McFerran in treating my severe rheumatoid arthritis. I have seen tremendous progress (I have no noticable inflammation and take no traditional arthritis medicine. I do still take an anti-fungal as I had huge candida overgrowth). I have also added skilled relaxation with biofeedback and exercise in the last several months. Improvements continue to come although they are coming slower than before.

I have been on the Hunter-Gatherer diet since last Thanksgiving. Of course this means I'm eating meat (much of it fatty steaks, pork chops, etc.) 3 times a day. At 41 years of age, I have absolutely no weight problems (was fairly trim before and even more so now), have had 1 cold in the past year (after years of colds/allergies several times per year), no sugar/carbohydrate cravings and in general have better energy and feel "pretty darned good."

Also, I've also noticed that my cholesterol levels/ratios have improved slightly over the course of the past year. For EY4YT advocates, this may not be seen as a significant event for people with type O blood like Bob, but I am type A...

As I understand, according to the EY4YT diet, I should be on a very light diet, just about the opposite of what has worked for me.

Not saying that the EY4YT diet doesn't help many people because I'm sure it does, but in my experience, people should not throw out the HG diet based on their blood type. I have to admit that it was a little scary starting this diet because of all the information out there about heart disease and meat consumption, but once positive results started coming in, I lost those concerns.

In my experience, the biobalance/blood plasma ph approach works regardless of your type...


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Re: Blood Type and Hunter-Gatherer Diet

Posted by Lori on November 16, 1998 at 09:23:22:

In Reply to: Blood Type and Hunter-Gatherer Diet posted by Joseph Hackett on November 16, 1998 at 00:23:18:

Along those lines of blood type vs biobalance diets, I have some confusion. Thanks for sharing your outcomes with RA and H-G, very interesting. I have exzema that became much worse with H-G type O diet, after 8 months of increased suffering with it, I have been dabbling with the agiculturalist diet. I am type O. Wondering how many people are mixed? H-G numbers seem to predominate over agri's, I can't tell for sure which I am.



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Re: Blood Type and Hunter-Gatherer Diet

Posted by Robert McFerran on November 16, 1998 at 10:38:42:

In Reply to: Re: Blood Type and Hunter-Gatherer Diet posted by Lori on November 16, 1998 at 09:23:22:

Lori,

Dr. Stoll is a blood type O yet I would dare say that he has inherited an Agriculturist metabolism. The things that Joe eats would cause his cholesterol to leap!

85% of men and 50% of the women in the U.S. are Agriculturists. The prevalence of Mixed types is probably less than 5% for men and 15% for women.

You should know rather immediately (within 48 hours) if one of the metabolic diets is working better than the other since it will yield more energy. It's that simple.

Unfortunately there can be significant food allergies that muddle the pictures. Therefore running a good elimination diet PRIOR to moving into the metabolic diets will give you a MUCH clearer read as to what type of metabolism you have inherited.

Bob


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Re: Blood Type and Hunter-Gatherer Diet

Posted by Louise on November 16, 1998 at 12:06:41:

In Reply to: Re: Blood Type and Hunter-Gatherer Diet posted by Robert McFerran on November 16, 1998 at 10:38:42:

Bob,

How were you able to determine the statistics on H-G and Ag metabolisms?

Do you have any theories why there would be significantly more H-G women than men?

Do you think the prevelance of more mixed women is due to cycling hormonally ?

Thanks!

Louise


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Re: Blood Type and Hunter-Gatherer Diet

Posted by Robert McFerran on November 16, 1998 at 15:18:32:

In Reply to: Re: Blood Type and Hunter-Gatherer Diet posted by Louise on November 16, 1998 at 12:06:41:

Louise,

Dr. Wiley observed Dr. Watson's research (approx. 20 years worth) and then considered his own (another 20 years) and come up with those rough statistics.

Wiley seems to believe that genetics are responsible -- probably that the gene for the H-G and Mixed types are dominant for women.

If this is true the implications are daunting. It would mean more and more women SHOULD NOT be eating the low fat, high complex carbohydrate diet that is generally accepted as their best diet. This would mean that a higher percentage of women will have more problems in the future with weight, fertility, anxiety/depression, chronic fatigue, auto-immune disease, leaky gut, etc. Personally I believe that their is much evidence to support that is already occurring.

I AM SUGGESTING HERE THAT A DIET MISMATCHED TO INHERITED METABOLISM IS ONE OF (perhaps the least diagnosed) THE PRE-CURSORS TO LEAKY GUT SYNDROME.

The phenomenon of 'metabolic cycling' in women fits very well with what we would expect from Chaos Theory. Describing Chaos Theory is well beyond the scope of this post yet it explains many phenomenon that occur within biological systems. Things like why the deer population might expand in a certain area while contracting in another that is immediately adjacent.

To my knowledge metabolic cycling has nothing to do with the inheritance of a Mixed metabolic type.

Bob


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Questions: Hunter-Gatherers; JAMA

Posted by Mike Kramer on November 16, 1998 at 15:26:49:

In Reply to: Blood Type and Hunter-Gatherer Diet posted by Joseph Hackett on November 16, 1998 at 00:23:18:

I have two questions, which are not closely related to each other:

1) I am no anthropologist, but . . . I always imagined that one could tell a story of human origins that went something like this. Once upon a time there were hunter-gatherers. There was no agriculture. HGs' forturnes waxed and waned according to the luck of the hunt. After felling big game they would gorge themselves silly. If the hunt wasn't going too well, everyone did without. It was feast or famine.

Why, we might ask, didn't they stabilize their nutritional intake by preserving a large part of the game they caught, that way their diet would be less dependent upon the luck of the most recent hunt?

Geez. I don't know. I guess they didn't have very good means of preservation.

Then one day some people decided to domesticate grains. Great idea! (Well maybe not, but that's a story for a different post.) Now there was a predictable food supply. And food could be stored, In fact, 10 people could produce enough food for, say, 12 people. So two people could become religious/political/military leaders and live off the labor of the other 10. Life became stable, measurable and predictable. Accountants and lawyers were needed. Lo! Civilization was invented

Let's say this simplistic picture is even remotely accurate. Woudln't it suggest that HGs are selected to endure alternations of feast and famine? Wouldn't it also suggest that Agriculturalists would need to be less equipped genetically for fasting?

Don't the conclusions of the previous paragraph violate Robert McFerran's empirical observations? Bob, what's wrong with my thinking?

2) Regarding the AMA's latest foray into alternative medicine, I have read in newspaper articles that some treatments were deemed promising and others were essentially condemned as ineffective. One of the promising regimens that caught my eye was Chinese herbs for irritable bowel syndrome. Has anyone seen the JAMA where this was investigated? Does anyone know which herbs were tested?


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Re: Questions: Hunter-Gatherers; JAMA

Posted by Aaron Wieland on November 16, 1998 at 17:16:38:

In Reply to: Questions: Hunter-Gatherers; JAMA posted by Mike Kramer on November 16, 1998 at 15:26:49:

Actually, it was agriculturalists who were most susceptible to famine, not hunter-gatherers. A drought or pestilence could wipe out a community's major crop, whereas the disappearance of all the local wildlife was a comparatively rare event.

Also, it was possible for hunter-gatherers to preserve food, e.g., by drying, smoking, or (in the far north) freezing. "The Carrier [an Indian tribe that lived in British Columbia], for example, were so dependent on fish that they felt no need to hunt in the winter, subsisting on their stores of dried salmon." (_The Canadian Indian_, Indian and Northern Affairs Canada, 1990).

Cheers,
-- Aaron Wieland



Re: Questions: Hunter-Gatherers; JAMA

Posted by Robert McFerran on November 16, 1998 at 19:14:02:

In Reply to: Questions: Hunter-Gatherers; JAMA posted by Mike Kramer on November 16, 1998 at 15:26:49:

Mike,

Boy am I confused.

I couldn't understand to what part of Joe's post you were responding?

Who said that Hunter-gatherers couldn't preserve meat?

They were EXPERT at salting, smoking, drying and various other curing techniques. The question you REALLY want to ask yourself is how did they preserve their fruits and especially vegetables during those long, cold winters?

Hunter-gatherers weren't some throw-back to antiquity either. We know today (via analysis of bones) that Saxons living only 500 years ago were more carnivorous than wolves! Dr. Weston Price found classic examples of Hunter-gatherers thriving as little as 80 years ago in northern Scotland, the Austrailian outback, central Africa and South America not to mention the indigenous tribes populating Canada and the U.S.

As Aaron pointed out Hunter-gatherers were LESS susceptible to fluctuations in their food supply than their Agriculturist counterparts.

So using your arguement I guess the improved ability of Agriculturists to endure long periods of little food (during flood, drought, etc.) MIGHT have something to do with Agriculturists being better suited for fasting than their H-G counterparts.

But it might have more to do with the fact that we are animals and not plants.

You have to understand that ALL humans have two MAJOR biochemical pathways that we can use in the creation of energy -- one uses protein and fat while the other uses carbohydrate.

H-G's rapidly and effectively burn fat and protein. It is their PREFERRED metabolic pathway for generating energy. Agriculturists can burn fat and protein too -- albeit less effectively and much more slowly as this is not their preferred energy source (carbohydrate from plant sources is their preferred source).

Under conditions of fasting Agriculturists take advantage of this 'slower burn' of their secondary metabolic pathway as they use body fat and muscle as their only available source of energy.

Hunter-gatherers have the same source of energy available when fasting (essentially their own flesh). Unfortunately since the protein and fat that they are consuming are being burned via their PRIMARY metabolic, energy producing pathway, they will not be able to sustain a fast as long as their Agriculturist counterparts.

I don't want to criticize you for your innacurate anthropological assumtions because they were the same I held about two years ago before I really did some in depth research. Many of the anthropology texts will have to be re-written since we now have scientific tools that indicate what our predecessor REALLY ate. These tools have also only become available during the last couple of years.

I can't really comment much on the second question about JAMA, Chinese herbs and irritable bowel syndrome except to say that ALMOST ANYTHING IS BETTER THAN WHAT AMERICAN ALLOPATHS DO FOR THIS CONDITION RIGHT NOW. I mean basically they try immunosuppression first (with always toxic side effects) and then, when this utterly fails, proceed to actually removing the chronically inflammed part of the gastro-intestinal tract.

In like fashion my artifical hip and shoulder demonstrate Allopathic medicine's dismal failure when it comes to rheumtoid arthritis.

I believe that many of the Chinese herbs have POWERFUL antibiotic properties which assist those with a weakened immune system deal with various parasites that can damage the G.I. tract. When it works (and it will work more often than immune suppression) these herbs deal with ONE of the causes of the inflammation (removing a stressor) and allow the body to 'normalize'. In contrast Allopathic medicine uses immune-suppressing drugs which (as a side effect) allow any parasitic infection to blossom making things even worse. The body never has a chance with this therapy -- it is taken away by the immune suppressants.

I still believe that the Chinese Herbal route is still a hit and miss therapy. It works better than Allopathic medicine -- but that isn'


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Re: Blood Type and Hunter-Gatherer Diet

Posted by Lori on November 16, 1998 at 22:18:27:

In Reply to: Re: Blood Type and Hunter-Gatherer Diet posted by Robert McFerran on November 16, 1998 at 15:18:32:

Thanks for answering my qustions and all the good information. I noticed an immediate increase in energy on the Agric diet (ran semi-elimination before, not 100%, but close), but also noticed increase in HUNGER and carbo cravings. I attributed this to sudden decrease in fat. Included higher purine and fat content foods and the result was less hunger, but increase in symptoms (fatigue, eczema). So now I'm trying not too successfully to straddle a bit of both worlds, and eating within ER4YT guidelines. Not easy.... and confusing.


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Re: Blood Type and Hunter-Gatherer Diet

Posted by Robert McFerran on November 16, 1998 at 23:29:57:

In Reply to: Re: Blood Type and Hunter-Gatherer Diet posted by Lori on November 16, 1998 at 22:18:27:

Lori,

What you are trying to do is actually impossible. Soon you'll be trying to modify with a little of THE ZONE too :)

Until you eliminate ALL of your food allergens (via the elimination diet) you will always crave something AND you will always have symptoms. Right now you think you crave carbos but if that really is the case (while you're doing the elimination diet) what you really need is just the opposite -- more of the fish which is the main source of purines in the elimination diet.

If you are an Agriculturist you will find that you will be TOTALLY SATISFIED (i.e. -- not hungry or fatigued) with a diet consisting exclusively of the vegetables and fruit with maybe a small amount of fish in the evening.

There is a STRONG logic to what I propose. Other dietary systems (including ERFYT) are basically shots in the dark. If you are lucky you'll hit upon the right diet.

I don't know if this is the case with you but many times folks are a bit scared to REALLY find out what is their BEST DIET. They might have to get rid of too many of the foods they like in exchange for the ones they don't. They keep looking at different diets until they find the ones that allow them what they want.

Bob


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Hunter-Gatherer trying to be Vegan

Posted by Peggy on November 17, 1998 at 02:09:28:

In Reply to: Re: Questions: Hunter-Gatherers; JAMA posted by Robert McFerran on November 16, 1998 at 19:14:02:

Robert,

I keep thinking of this woman on the Raw Foods BB. She spoke of her difficulty in trying to fast and how she can't make it thru even one day. She's so stressed by the end of the day that she ends up binging. Also, she thinks she's hypoglycemic. I thought of you and all that flashed before my eyes was: HUNTER-GATHERER!! She was advised that these symptoms at the end of the day are detox and she should take baby-steps with juice fasts to work into a water fast. The health benefits will be immense. She's no doubt a H-G trying to live on an all-raw, vegan diet. Sounds like a recipe for disaster.

Peggy





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Re: Hunter-Gatherer trying to be Vegan

Posted by Robert McFerran on November 17, 1998 at 12:26:37:

In Reply to: Hunter-Gatherer trying to be Vegan posted by Peggy on November 17, 1998 at 02:09:28:

Peggy,

You see the logic in how this fits together -- she doesn't.

Here is a true story that will be in my book.

Another example is an ex-ballerina that I met after giving a presentation at the University of Louisvilleís Medical School. She was tall and VERY slender with brittle, dry red hair and a very fair complexion. She said that both of her parents were from Ireland and she was surprised when I discussed what the Northern European diet REALLY consisted of as little as 500 years ago.

There were no potatoes of course as this vegetable was indigenous to South America and was only brought back to Europe after the discovery of America. There were no fruits Ė simply too cold. There were no grains except for very modest amounts of oats. The land simply didnít avail itself to agriculture due to the high content of lime in the soil. There wasnít sufficient grass to sustain cattle but sheep would survive. Their primary food sources were sheep or crabs and other shellfish from the cold Atlantic waters. Root vegetables like carrots and parsnips were their major vegetables but still eaten in relatively small quantities.

She told me that she exercised daily and ate a whole foods, organic, vegetarian diet. I asked why she came to the meeting and she admitted that she is starting to have trouble with fatigue, brain fog, arthritis and most recently increasing fibromyalgia symptoms. She had heard that I had rheumatoid arthritis and had some alternative ways of treating it. I donít think that she would have come if she knew that I was going to challenge the way she ate.

I asked her about her cholesterol and she sheepishly admitted that it was 295 and that her doctor had already prescribed medication but she hadnít started taking it. She added that she COULDNíT eat meat and fat since that would even make her cholesterol worse. I asked why her cholesterol was so high in the first place Ė certainly her vegetarian diet and regular exercise werenít responsible. I explained that the liver will produce huge amounts of cholesterol (more than anyone could ever eat) as a response to physiological stress. The stress to her liver was coming from the fact that she was fighting against the current by eating a diet that didnít match the metabolism she inherited.

She complained that my research was from people living 500 years ago. Couldnít she and her ancestors have adapted over that time? I told her that there were 5 nutritional anthropologists in the country and they all agreed that it would take humans about 5,000 years to properly adapt to such a significant dietary change. The ballerina asked if she could get her protein from beans and lentils and continue her vegetarian ways. I told her that unfortunately beans were indigenous to tropical South America and Africa. Lentils from the Middle East. Those 5 nutritional anthropologists are constantly reminding their students that we didnít eat NURTRIENTS (i.e. proteins, carbohydrates, fats) but our ancestors ate FOODS. In other words just substitute nutrients for the actual foods that our ancestors ate was NOT a substitute for those foods.

I explained to the ballerina how the officers from the first British expeditions to Antarctica all succumbed to scurvy within 3 months while the enlisted men seemed immune. Scurvy is from terminal vitamin C deficiency. At the time doctors didnít understand the connection between vitamin C and scurvy. Well, the officers were fed the best cuts of meat (exclusively steaks) while the enlisted men were fed some steak mixed with the organ meats (kidneys, liver, heart, etc.). They didnít know at the time that these organ meats were where animals stored their vitamin C. The muscle meats of animals have little if any vitamin C. I believe that we have only a little bit more knowledge about the importance of the actual food than the British Army possessed over 200 years ago.

The ballerina became more defiant and insisted that she would NOT eat meat. I asked he


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Criminy! Leave me hangin'.....

Posted by Peggy on November 17, 1998 at 18:15:31:

In Reply to: Re: Hunter-Gatherer trying to be Vegan posted by Robert McFerran on November 17, 1998 at 12:26:37:

So did the ballerina change her diet?

Peggy




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Re: Blood Type and Hunter-Gatherer Diet

Posted by Lori` on November 17, 1998 at 19:51:09:

In Reply to: Re: Blood Type and Hunter-Gatherer Diet posted by Robert McFerran on November 16, 1998 at 23:29:57:

Yes, I understand what you are saying. I don't believe I'm opposed at all to any particular diet regarding possible restrictions, I'm happy to eat either way (H-G, or Agri), the only thing that would be hard to give up is coffee-I really like the feeling it gives, but I only drink 1-2 cups a day, and never afternoon- interferes with sleep, I feel. Did give it up for several months with no imporvement noted, so now I drink it again. I'm truly seeking my optimal diet, and need to go elimination next , it sounds. Was only hoping to get some clues beforehand.


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Re: Criminy! Leave me hangin'.....

Posted by Robert McFerran on November 17, 1998 at 22:50:05:

In Reply to: Criminy! Leave me hangin'..... posted by Peggy on November 17, 1998 at 18:15:31:

Peggy,

I don't know. Probably not.

She did mumble something about maybe trying fish as she walked out the door.

Bob


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Re: Criminy! Leave me hangin'.....

Posted by Walt Stoll on November 18, 1998 at 10:38:02:

In Reply to: Re: Criminy! Leave me hangin'..... posted by Robert McFerran on November 17, 1998 at 22:50:05:

Dear Peggy & Bob,

As you can imagine I have stories, ad nauseum, about stuff like this. I have ALWAYS been amazed (even now) that so many people would sooner DIE than learn something new. Most people still believe the AMA propaganda that: "we can hire others to do our thinking for us if we just pay them enough".

It is only by the occasional person like Bob actually doing something with the information I offer that makes all the effort worth while. I don't think Bob knows how much he has helped me continue just by his example. It is not that these things do not work--they DO! It is that most people are not willing to do it.

It was still helpful for Bob to have made the effort since, if he is right about her, years later she may have finally suffered enough. Then, she will say to herself: "Gee, that guy knew something and I wasn't ready to hear it. Hope I can find him again--or at least find someone that knows what he knew."

"The journey of a thousand miles still begins with a single step."

Sigh! Walt



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Re: Criminy! Leave me hangin'.....

Posted by Clelia on November 18, 1998 at 13:22:44:

In Reply to: Re: Criminy! Leave me hangin'..... posted by Walt Stoll on November 18, 1998 at 10:38:02:

Walt, that is exactly how I feel now. I wish I had heard about this diet years ago, so I could have avoided some of the medical problems I have now. About 7 years ago I was put on a Candida diet (by my Charopractor, my family doctor said that was useless) it helped me but at the same time I didn't relize that I was still eating the wrong foods, until I accidently found information regarding this new way of eating. I for one don't like to eat red meat that much, however I do eat chicken and fish when I can. Is this OK or I should eat red meat too (even if I don't like it)?


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Re: Criminy! Leave me hangin'.....

Posted by Robert McFerran on November 18, 1998 at 16:45:16:

In Reply to: Re: Criminy! Leave me hangin'..... posted by Clelia on November 18, 1998 at 13:22:44:

Clelia,

Give the red meat a try -- and it doesn't have to always be a steak either. Personally I find the taste is GREATLY enhanced by slicing strips of the meat and then adding them to whatever vegetable that I'm sauteeing in olive oil.

Be sure to try lamb with marjoram and parsnips sauteed in olive oil -- heaven! I also have located organic sources for buffalo and venison -- both which I regularly enjoy.

Variety is the spice of your eating life -- and for a Hunter-gatherer that means trying some new and different meats.

Also the repetitive eating of anything too often might create a food allergy.

Bob



Robert McFerran-question

Posted by Lori on November 18, 1998 at 22:19:56:

In Reply to: Re: Blood Type and Hunter-Gatherer Diet posted by Lori` on November 17, 1998 at 19:51:09:

So here I go, in preparation for this elimination diet trial, I have a few questions. I hear it is common practice to eliminate from the list of "safe" foods(only foods consumed during trial) any foods that you eat regularly. Since I've been eating predominantly these foods for the last month, what foods do I eliminate and what foods do I go with? What would a typical day's intake resemble? Thanks for any help you can give.


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Re: Robert McFerran-question

Posted by Robert McFerran on November 18, 1998 at 22:38:29:

In Reply to: Robert McFerran-question posted by Lori on November 18, 1998 at 22:19:56:

Lori,

Go ahead and eat anything on the list of 'safe' foods.

I personally bought a Black & Decker steamer and used this for most of the vegetables. It DEFINATELY made the fish taste better.

Each meal should consist of a good portion of steamed vegetabales and some fruit (no more than half of a piece) for dessert. Eat as much fish with these meals as you want.

Snacking on fruit alone is not a good idea. If you are hungry try to fix a smaller meal consisting of primarily the vegetables, a little fruit, and fish if you want it.

H-G's will find that they get hungry within 2 hours after eating if they forgo the fish. Agriculturists find they do quite well and might only have the fish with dinner.

Drink plenty of spring water.

Good luck.

Bob


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Re: Robert McFerran-question

Posted by Lori on November 19, 1998 at 09:16:37:

In Reply to: Re: Robert McFerran-question posted by Robert McFerran on November 18, 1998 at 22:38:29:

Thanks for the advice, it is much appreciated. I'll give it a go for real, am tired of the fluctuating symptom level.



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