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H-G and Vit C

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H-G and Vit C

Posted by
Lori on February 07, 2000 at 09:09:44:

I'm wondering if the citrus bioflavanoids in my Vit C powder could cause symptoms to recur (eczema), after good success with the H-G diet, otherwise. If so, how much and what type Vit C is recommended for H-G?



Re: H-G and Vit C

Posted by
Eileen on February 07, 2000 at 11:20:19:

In Reply to: H-G and Vit C posted by Lori on February 07, 2000 at 09:09:44:

Hi Lori!

I'll be interested in the answer also. I got my eczema under control with essential fatty acids, mostly in flax oil, but I noticed I'm getting a few more small recurrences lately. Don't think it's from the Bioflavonoids, but maybe they contribute. I'm taking the Bioflavonoids for bruising, but I have a question about the 'strength' of the supplement I'm taking (post a few days ago). Also doing SR to help with the underlying causes. Maybe Ester-C would be helpful.




Re: H-G and Vit C

Posted by
Robert McFerran on February 07, 2000 at 13:39:27:

In Reply to: H-G and Vit C posted by Lori on February 07, 2000 at 09:09:44:

Lori,

I have experimented exclusively with ESTER-C. The usual dose is 1,500 - 3,000 mg./day in divided doses with meals. The higher doses are for those trying to recover from a chronic illness.

The brands with and without the bioflavinoids seem to have no discernable effect on metabolic balance for H-G's.

Bob



Re: H-G and Vit C

Posted by Rotraut on February 08, 2000 at 04:04:53:

In Reply to: Re: H-G and Vit C posted by Robert McFerran on February 07, 2000 at 13:39:27:

And how about Agriculturists? I would appreciate any input.
Rotraut



Re: H-G and Vit C

Posted by
Robert McFerran on February 08, 2000 at 10:28:20:

In Reply to: Re: H-G and Vit C posted by Rotraut on February 08, 2000 at 04:04:53:

Rotraut,

My recommendations for Agriculturists are the same as those for H-G's when it comes to Ester-C. It doesn't seem to effect blood plasma pH either way -- which in some ways makes sense since, unlike the B-vitamins, vitamin C doesn't seem to strongly drive any METABOLIC reactions (those reactions that produce energy in the body).

Bob



Re: H-G and Vit C

Posted by
Kyra on February 08, 2000 at 15:40:53:

In Reply to: Re: H-G and Vit C posted by Robert McFerran on February 08, 2000 at 10:28:20:


Hi Bob!

A question about how high to take the ester C dosage, if bowel tolerance hasn't been reached yet, for an 8 1/2 year old, 85 lb., 5 ft. tall boy with a cervico-thoracic spinal syrinx (CSF-filled cavity; C4-T1) that the neurosurgeon wants to get his hands on on March 15. Nick's only symptoms (if they're in fact symptomatic of this anomaly) are arm motor tics since birth. At the recommendation of an orthomolecular doc in Berkeley, CA, I've got Nick on ester C. He didn't give me an upper limit, and I haven't recontacted him yet since he's out of the country now. So far Nick is on 6 grams daily and his neurological symptoms are improving dramatically. Only follow-up MRI will tell if the C is doing anything to eliminate/reduce the syrinx, but we've got approx. a 3-week window before having to do the full spinal MRI, with and without contrast. My intuition is that the ester C, given that it's a profound diuretic, is "shrinking" the syrinx and allowing freer CSF flow up and down the spinal cord, thereby relieving Nick's tics. If so, what a potentially simple and dramatic way to resolve a serious issue. Anyway, re. the ester C max dosage, would you think go all the way to gut tolerance, even if it's 30 grams daily, or to put a cap on the max dosage?

Thanks!
Kyra



Bowel Tolerance and Vitamin C -- what is REALLY happening

Posted by
Robert McFerran on February 08, 2000 at 18:23:36:

In Reply to: Re: H-G and Vit C posted by Kyra on February 08, 2000 at 15:40:53:

Hi Kyra,

It's times like these when I wish that I was a medical intuitive since I don't think anybody can give you a definitive answer to your question. YOUR instincts and observations here are probably better than any of the 'experts'.

Most folks don't realize it but the non-ester C varieties of vitamin C are actually ascorbate SALTS. Most of the commercial products that are used to induce bowel movements are also SALTS (magnesium citrate, epsom salts, etc.). The way these things work is that they are relatively unabsorbed in the gastrointestinal tract and when they reach the colon (since they are salts) they tend to pull water out of the body and into the colon. The extra fluid helps create the 'loose' bowels or 'bowel intolerance'.

The ascorbate salt versions of supplemental vitamin C act in a similar fashion to the laxitives. There are other factors like the individual's bowel transit time, how well they are hydrated (VERY important if taking large doses of ANY ascorbate salt), what they are eating, as well as how well they are dividing the dose throughout the day.

I know that there are stories that bowel tolerance (i.e. - how much of the ascorbate stuff you can take) is based primarily on how sick you are and how much your body needs it. I have not found that to be the case. If you take a very sick person that is very well hydrated and give them a large single dose of ascorbate salts you are going to get a personl looking for a toilet in fairly short order.

On the other hand if you take a person and start them at a lower dose that is divided over the course of a day you will find that you will be able to incrementally up the dose since their transit time is decreasing -- this reduces the concentration of unabsorbed salt in the bowel, especially if they remain well hydrated.

IF they become dehydrated they will also appear to be able to tolerate a larger dose of the ascorbate salt since there simply isn't enough free water in their system to induce the loose bowel phenomenon.

Since Ester-C is NOT an ascorbate salt I doubt that there would be any point where an individual would be signaled to stop increasing the dose due to loose bowels (bowel tolerance). This brings up the question of where does an increasingly large dose of Ester-C start to do more harm than good? At least with the ascorbate versions of vitamin C we know (through years of experience) that toxicity is generally NOT found below or at the bowel tolerance level.

Dr. Cathcart might be a good person to pose your question -- but watch out for the 'Tolstoy' effect.

Sorry I couldn't add any more insight.

Bob



Re: OK then, Open Question: has anyone ever reached Bowel Tolerance using ESTER-C ???

Posted by Harvey on February 08, 2000 at 21:52:08:

In Reply to: Bowel Tolerance and Vitamin C -- what is REALLY happening posted by Robert McFerran on February 08, 2000 at 18:23:36:

Robert:

Thanks so much for that explanation about the salts and water, etc. It sure makes sense to me.

It will be interesting what response this followon question gets.

The White Rabbit



Re: Bowel Tolerance and Vitamin C -- what is REALLY happening

Posted by
Kyra on February 08, 2000 at 22:38:16:

In Reply to: Bowel Tolerance and Vitamin C -- what is REALLY happening posted by Robert McFerran on February 08, 2000 at 18:23:36:


Thanks, Bob! Great info. It's duly downloaded. One of the great ironies of being an "intuitive" is that you can't get a precise read on those near and dear to you. Generalities do come through sometimes. Too much personal attachment exists, though, to get into the requisite state of relatively egoless (ha!) nonattachment necessary for detailed info to come through... I'll try flushing out Cathcart, and not with a megadose of C (baaaaad joke).

Kyra



Re: VITAMIN C, TITRATING TO BOWEL TOLERANCE, 1981 article by Dr. Cathcart

Posted by Harvey on February 09, 2000 at 07:07:54:

In Reply to: Bowel Tolerance and Vitamin C -- what is REALLY happening posted by Robert McFerran on February 08, 2000 at 18:23:36:

Dr. Cathcart's article VITAMIN C, TITRATING TO BOWEL TOLERANCE (linked below) talks about how much Vitamin C a person can take, as being somewhat "proportional to the toxicity of the disease being treated. Tolerance is increased some by stress (e.g., anxiety, exercise, heat, cold, etc.)" This was published in 1981, based on work from the 1970s onwards. (way before Ester-C)

Also it has a table of "Representative doses taken by tolerant patients titrating their ascorbic acid intake between the relief of most symptoms and the production of diarrhea" which seems to support his hypothesis.

Unfortunately, he (of course!) never mentions Ester-C, so how his data and conclusions from ordinary Vitamin C might relate to the "real" mechanism of bowel tolerance and to Ester-C are *not* addressed by this article.

So I wonder what his latest work shows. Anyone know?

The White Rabbit



Re: The Third Face of Vitamin C, a 1993 Article by Dr. Cathcart

Posted by Harvey on February 09, 2000 at 07:31:31:

In Reply to: Re: VITAMIN C, TITRATING TO BOWEL TOLERANCE, 1981 article by Dr. Cathcart posted by Harvey on February 09, 2000 at 07:07:54:

I found a later article (linked below). Sadly, he still does not mention Ester-C.

He describes the three faces of vitamin C.

1. vitamin C to prevent scurvy (up to 65 mg/day.)

2. vitamin C to prevent acute induced scurvy and to augment vitamin C functions (1 to 20 grams/day.)

3. vitamin C to provide reducing equivalents (30 to 200 or more grams/day.)

I found it a relatively interesting article, but I'm not a biochemist, so parts of it went over my head.

The White Rabbit



Re: OK then, Open Question: has anyone ever reached Bowel Tolerance using ESTER-C ???

Posted by Walt Stoll on February 09, 2000 at 10:02:07:

In Reply to: Re: OK then, Open Question: has anyone ever reached Bowel Tolerance using ESTER-C ??? posted by Harvey on February 08, 2000 at 21:52:08:

Hi, Harvey (I thought Harvey was invisable [grin].)

MY bowel tolerance when I am at my best is 11 grams of esterified C at a single dose. If I am exposed to household members who have colds or influenza, I can easily go up to 16 grams before hitting bowel tolerance (single dose). For both of the above, if I divide the doses into 2 a day, the tolerance goes up about 30% for a 24 hour total.

Hope this helps.

Walt



Re: VITAMIN C, TITRATING TO BOWEL TOLERANCE, 1981 article by Dr. Cathcart (Archive in vitamins.)

Posted by Walt Stoll on February 10, 2000 at 10:51:54:

In Reply to: Re: VITAMIN C, TITRATING TO BOWEL TOLERANCE, 1981 article by Dr. Cathcart posted by Harvey on February 09, 2000 at 07:07:54:

Thanks, Harvey.

Namaste`

Walt



Re: Ditto Walt's thanks, oh noble Rabbit!

Posted by
Kyra on February 10, 2000 at 11:10:23:

In Reply to: Re: VITAMIN C, TITRATING TO BOWEL TOLERANCE, 1981 article by Dr. Cathcart posted by Harvey on February 09, 2000 at 07:07:54:


I appreciate very much your researching the Cathcart info.



Re: VITAMIN C, TITRATING TO BOWEL TOLERANCE, 1981 article by Dr. Cathcart

Posted by Robert Cathcart, M.D. on April 04, 2000 at 20:44:47:

In Reply to: Re: VITAMIN C, TITRATING TO BOWEL TOLERANCE, 1981 article by Dr. Cathcart posted by Harvey on February 09, 2000 at 07:07:54:

I just happened to run into this website while surfing.

See http://www.orthomed.com/titrate.htm

What is this obsession about Ester-C? All of my writings have been about ascorbic acid orally and sodium ascorbate intravenously. I have to use sodium ascorbate by vein because ascorbic acid is too acid to give much by vein.
http://www.orthomed.com/civprep.htm

However, orally I cannot get what I call the "ascorbate effect" with anything but ascorbic acid. Believe me, I would like to get the ascobate effect with salts of ascorbate because of all those people with GI tract problems cannot tolerate sufficient amounts of ascorbic acid.

It seems that ascorbic acid is much stronger than the salts of ascorbate because I just have not been able to accomplish the ascorbate effect with the salts. With magnesium ascorbate, the diarrhea is caused by the magnesium. I do not know what it would take to cause diarrhea with calcium ascorbate. I have thought that only about a fifth of the ascorbic acid taken by mouth ever gets into the bloodstream whereas 100% of the sodium ascorbate given by vein gets into the bloodstream. That is why the weaker sodium ascorbate given by vein is actually stronger than the stronger ascorbic acid given by mouth.

I think that with the massive doses of ascorbate we are not really after the vitamin C as much as we are after the electrons (or reducing equivalents) carried by the ascorbate. We are actually throwing away the ascorbate for the electrons carried and thereby forcing a reducing redox potential onto the diseased tissues. This reverses the acute induced scurvy in the affected tissues. It is true that after the oxidizing redox potential is reversed, some of the ascorbate is used as vitamin C.

Part of the problem here is defining the difference that I mean between vitamin C and ascorbate. They are the same thing but when I use the terms, each has a different meaning. The ascorbate is for the electrons and the vitamin C is for all the vitamin C things the body needs. The vitamin C requires the mitochondria to continually refuel it with electrons when the electrons are used up neutralizing free radicals. Think of vitamin C and all the other non-enzymatic free radical scavengers as being like buckets carrying electrons. The amount of electrons carried in on all of the free radical scavengers that you eat are just enough to last a few minutes when you are sick. The electrons really come from the mitochondria. When the mitochondria are damaged like in diseases the free radical scavengers cannot continue to supply electrons to neutralize free radicals. The oxidized form of ascorbate or dehydroascorbate has a halflife of only a few minutes in the body so that shortly all of the vitamin C is lost in diseased tissues.

The major reason that I wrote about this increasing bowel tolerance to ascorbic acid taken orally is to point out that there is an enormous amout of free radicals involved in varios diseases. When these free radicals are eliminated we can cure or at least markedly reduce the morbidity and mortality of varous diseases. I hope you all realize that Klenner was able to cure polio with intravenous ascorbate back in 1948.

http://www.orthomed.com/polio.htm

The importance of this fact cannot be overestimated. The cures of many infectious problems follow from the understanding of these principles.



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