Metabolic Type and ER4YT Diets archives

Cheating on the diet

Posted by Robert Herstein on March 02, 1999 at 10:18:59:

I'm sure this has come up a hundred times, but I have to ask it. How critical to success with the diet is periodic cheating? What I have found to be very true is that a motivating factor in following strict diets is that eating something that you like or crave once every week or two can be something to take the edge off. People who have designed diets have stated that if cheating every once in a while is what it takes to keep you following a diet strictly the rest of the time, then DO IT (rather than just give up). In a practical sense, feeling constantly deprived of foods you enjoy (because of the flavor you love, not because of the endorphin high you might get from it) is setting up a bad psychological state in peoples' heads. If a part of each person's goal is to follow the diet strictly for two weeks, then enjoy one food you love (or worse, enjoy a whole meal of things you love), then it is likely to keep them following the diet strictly.

Do you believe that, for instance, in spite of the dangers that cereal grains pose to hunter-gatherers, that having a bread roll every two weeks is going to do irreversible damage, or set them back a month in their following of the protocol? I know it is very difficult to make a quantitative measurement of the effect which one roll will have on a person whose metabolic type is not "fit" for that roll; however, it is hard for me to imagine that it is a terrible thing (of course I have no previous experience with your diet). I mean, years ago, my diet probably involved eating a substantial amount of wheat every day of the week (I am an extreme HG), be it bread, pasta, pastries, bagels, or other foods with wheat as a principal ingredient. Going from that wheat-intensive diet to one in which I have a single piece of bread every few weeks seems VERY significant. Anyway, it may look as though I am looking for an excuse to be able to eat some of the things I like, but in another sense, I am trying to be practical. Today's hunter-gatherers do not live by hunting animals in Africa and gathering root vegetables. In reality, today's hunter-gatherers are not "hunters" at all. A few of us might own farms and cultivate our own vegetables and livestock for our own food, but this does not represent a majority of this country. We get our food by going to the supermarket, and if we are serious food shoppers, to the organic health food store. We live in a very social world where eating is a significant social event. It's how families get together and share stories. It's how romantic couples celebrate special events. It's how good friends share time together. And it's how businessmen entertain colleagues. To say that we can control the food selection around us 100% at all times is more than a stretch. Sure, we can alter our lifestyle to some extent, and never eat out, or not go over to our friend's for dinner, but this kind of lifestyle psychologically depresses the individual socially.

With this diet, we are not exactly running an experiment in a closed system with a rat. Humans are very social animals and meals are perhaps the primary event by which social interaction occurs. As much as I want to "cure" my arthritis, I do not want to sacrifice all aspects of my social life in order to accomplish this. I would then be healthy, but lose years of my life avoiding and feeling set apart from friends and family. Being able to occasionally have a meal with friends, family, romantic partners, and others is a significant piece of my life to sacrifice. I can do it for a few weeks, maybe a few months, but not forever. How have you personally dealt with this dilemma? I feel that ever since I started dieting (not just the elimination diet, but all of the arthritis diets I've followed), that I never see friends anymore because I can never eat at any restaurants.. Having dinner together was always something I could count on for keeping friendships alive. Is this something I can have again, and still know that I am improving my health in general and my arthritis in particular?

Just thinking...


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Re: Cheating on the diet

Posted by Robert McFerran on March 02, 1999 at 16:10:47:

In Reply to: Cheating on the diet posted by Robert Herstein on March 02, 1999 at 10:18:59:

Hi Rob,

For others -- Rob is someone with Psoriatic Arthritis that I've been working with via e-mail. He has run the elimination diet and is moving into the H-G diet. The body of his BB message was the same that he had e-mailed me. I thought that it brought up several interesting points and he was good enough to post it here on the BB.

I'd appreciate any comments or insights you might have to Rob's (and everyone else that wants to be healthy) dilemma.

Thanks,

Bob



Re: Cheating on the diet:food and friendship

Posted by Jenny on March 03, 1999 at 09:02:43:

In Reply to: Cheating on the diet posted by Robert Herstein on March 02, 1999 at 10:18:59:

Robert H, the issue you raise is SO important! I have a friend who is a nutritionist and she says her work is frustrating because people do NOT eat for bodily health but for emotional reasons. For me, the most satisfying social experiences have involved sharing food with others. My church does this a lot--potlucks monthly, small group dinners. I keep up friendships by "doing lunch" with special folks on a regular basis. Sunday dinners when the kids are all home tend to revert to the old favorites from their childhood years, which are mostly on the AVOID list! Most of these food gatherings feature lots of refined wheat/pasta, lowfat--or no--meat. Most of my friends are vegetarian. I am almost certainly an extreme HG. I want to do the elim diet and truly follow the appropriate metabolic eating plan, BUT it feels like a huge wrenching lifechange. It sounds like doing the plan 60 or 75% of the time would have no really worthwhile results.

I've sometimes felt it would mean trading in my flesh-and-blood friends/family for a cybercommunity, at least for a while, to get solidly established in this new way of being with food. Chatting w/online friends, I can happily munch my steak & eggs breakfast without grossing anybody else out or getting lectured on world hunger and/or cholesterol to boot! How are others dealing with these issues? All thoughts greatly appreciated!


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Re: Cheating on the diet (Critical information. Who are your real friends?)

Posted by Walt Stoll on March 03, 1999 at 12:20:15:

In Reply to: Cheating on the diet posted by Robert Herstein on March 02, 1999 at 10:18:59:

Thanks for posting this, Rob!

This seems to be one of the most common stumbling blocks to people getting well. No one wants to believe that this is an IMMUNOLOGICAL problem. When testing this out, the SLIGHTEST trace of the stuff being tested for will resimulate the hypeersensitivity just like a tetanus booster does. THEN the slightest trace of what you have discovered is part of the problem will restimulate the immunity for at least the next 6 months.

IF one deals with the LGS, in the meantime, there is a realy good chance that they will be able to start trying the stuff after that to see if the hypersensitivity has disappeared. Even if it has not, it will not throw them back to ground zero THEN. Within an average of 3 1/2 days their symptoms will again disappear WITHOUT making them start all over. Up until that time the slightest trace is almost certain to throw them back all the way to having to start over.

Consider, if you will, how well a person addicted to heroin would do if they just had a "little" every once in a while (to take the edge off)?

The first thing is to consider if this is important for you to do. To find THAT out, you have to do the "testing" perfectly. THEN, if it is not important, forget it. If it IS important you need to decide if you are willing to keep it up long enough to get a permanent benefit.

If you have to be a hermit for 6 months to do that you have to be a hermit. FIRST, though, use your bodymind as a laboratory to find out if it is worth your while to do.

I have done this for myself so I could competently tell my patients what to expect. I found my friends VERY underestanding about the social eating thing and, actually, they were a big help keeping me on it. Share your process with them. Those who care about you will help and those who do not you are better off without.

It makkes a good test to find out who your real friends are!

Walt


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No need to be the same as your friends in all aspects

Posted by Karel on March 03, 1999 at 13:06:43:

In Reply to: Cheating on the diet posted by Robert Herstein on March 02, 1999 at 10:18:59:

This is always a dilemma and a question of your own cost/benefit analysis - what you sacrifice and what you get. Health is just one of the aspects, sure.
I go to restaurants with friends, because there are ways to handle this. You can go to a restaurant and eat just raw vegetable salads, drink mineral water, or order a special food combination they will do just for you.
Sure, there are friends who do not understand this. But I feel I do not have to have the same way of living as my friends in every aspect of my life to be able to talk to them. Being different does not mean to be lost.
And, there are not just known results of leading a different life - you may be surprised to get what you otherwise would not be able to get - finding new people, energy gain causing better social, personal and other abilities etc. People stick to you more if you shine out your health. Friends sometimes change in this process, too. I have noticed some of my friends did not understand my dietary changes at first, now some of them do as their health deteriorated, or just hear more about various diets. The atmosphere and "diet talk" got different recently.



Re: Cheating on the diet

Posted by Joseph Hackett on March 03, 1999 at 13:31:58:

In Reply to: Cheating on the diet posted by Robert Herstein on March 02, 1999 at 10:18:59:

Robert H,

I think you have hit on one of the toughest issues to overcome in moving to the H-G diet or any "extreme" diet. I think it's one of the biggest reasons people (even those who are pretty ill) don't make the change. I have struggled with it many times myself.

With that said, I have been on the H-G diet for about 15 months, about 6 weeks after I had been diagnosed with a severe case of rheumatoid arthritis.

In my case, the situation was such that I could easily see myself losing my career and the ability to support my family. I was on disability from work for 2 months, and worked parttime for a while after that. I can't say I was excited about moving to this diet, but I really wondered how many friends I would be able stay in contact with anyway because I couldn't physically do it.

I think for me, the decision was easier than for many. It was: do I basically become a cripple, or do I drastically change the way I eat?

I was very strict on the diet for several months. I stayed away from many (not all) of the social gathering situations during that period, not because I felt I would cheat, but because I felt socially left out.

However, as I have continued to improve, I have found that I can vary from the diet somewhat, especially at the dinner meal. I am still very strict at breakfast because of the metabolic "shift" that Bob has talked about. Steakhouses and cafeterias have been good restaurant choices. I can get basic food (steak, vegetables - selection not always too great, sometimes a potato) in a social atmosphere, be a part of society, and still feel good (dessert is still, and may always be, a no no). Also, since my LGS is not completely healed, I still have to be pretty careful about allergic reactions to specific foods.

I also travel for business (about once a month for 2-3 days at a time), and this presents additional challenges (not a lot of whole foods in airports). Most of the time I bring along some nuts to use as a filler in case I really get caught.

If you stick with this for a while, you will also notice that your habits start to change. After over a year of this, I automatically reach for things I know I can eat in public situations. It becomes more a part of you.

There have been times when I am unprepared for the lack of available HG food. However, most of my friends are now reasonably familiar with my choice and often plan gatherings at places that have at least some type of food I can eat.

I can't say this route is easy, but it's much easier than it used to be. I don't feel I have a choice - my philosophy is that I would do ANYTHING to avoid the situation I was in.

The results: I have a life. I can work out, see my friends, travel, ride a bike, walk normally, work a full schedule, play with my kids, etc. I still am very aware of what I eat, but it's become less of a factor than it used to be.


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Re: Cheating on the diet

Posted by Robert Herstein on March 03, 1999 at 15:22:30:

In Reply to: Re: Cheating on the diet posted by Joseph Hackett on March 03, 1999 at 13:31:58:

Joseph,

I follow and understand what you are saying. I know it's probably tough for you to step back and REALLY feel the same way you felt when you were starting this diet. I have been living with psoriatic arthritis for nearly five years, much of it spent in terrible pain. I haven't involved myself in an athletic activity in years and this is extremely frustrating, because I was an extremely active and athletic person before it all started.

I have followed a number of different arthritis diets, each of which I followed very closely, without receiving the supposed significant benefits. It's not so much that I am not a believer in the H-G diet, but that I am always in such pain that enjoying a meal is one of the few pleasures I feel I can take in life. I'd love to go out and play tennis, or even just walk up the stairs, but I prefer an enjoyable meal, since I can sit at the dinner table with a reasonably bearable amount of pain.

I guess you can say I am feeling sorry for myself, but dammit, I deserve it! It's a horrible feeling when your physical disability visually sets you apart from what's viewed as "normal". I still can't take it very well when I'm limping horribly and notice the "looks" I get from passersby. When I sit down for a meal with friends and family, I can finally feel "normal" again -- fitting into the crowd. However, when I picture myself having to stick so strictly to a diet such as the H-G, I am once again set apart from "normal". No longer will I fit in with my circle of friends/family. People now have to make adjustments for my diet in order for me to involve myself with them. I hate having to feel like everyone else has to adjust their own lifestyles for me, because it will eventually take its toll on them. People will start to think, "boy, is this diet thing annoying!", and I'll have to agree 100%. In an ideal world, everyone around me will happily adjust to my needs, but in the real world, this doesn't happen, and I feel a bit uncomfortable making people feel obligated to do so.


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Re: Cheating on the diet (Critical information. Who are your real friends?)

Posted by Robert Herstein on March 03, 1999 at 15:46:21:

In Reply to: Re: Cheating on the diet (Critical information. Who are your real friends?) posted by Walt Stoll on March 03, 1999 at 12:20:15:

Walt,

I'm assuming you have followed this diet and gotten some very worthwhile benefit from it. In hindsight, it is not difficult for you to be able to say that it was "worth it." However, for those of us who haven't had this success yet, it is very difficult to say "OK, I'll follow this diet as strict as possible for 6 months, and it doesn't matter how everyone else in my life will react". Perhaps this mentality fits people well who have very strong faith in things, even if it just involves taking one's word for it that the diet WILL, indeed, be worth it. People of strong religious beliefs will no doubt be well-suited to have the "willpower" to stick to the diet for as long as it takes.

As far as comparing this to a heroin addict, I think that's just a bit of a stretch, unless you truly believe that a chemical dependency exists in all of us with regard to diet. Besides, it usually takes a heroin addict a near-death experience like an overdose in order to realize that they need to stop. Fear of death is their biggest motivator to stay away from heroin, as well as knowing first hand the extreme addictive powers of this drug.

Being able to follow this diet takes a strong belief in the foundations by which it was designed and the optimism which comes along with hearing/reading others' successes with it. However, it is slightly ignorant to expect that others (even close friends and family) will be able to take that same leap of faith that we have. Our motivators include trying to save ourselves from horrible, painful, lives. I cannot expect anyone not in a similar position as I am to understand and believe in what I am doing. In a perfect world, friends, family, and everyone, would have no prejudices biases. Unfortunately, we have to deal with the real world where these things exist, even in our loved ones. Just try telling someone not to look at your hand if you had eight fingers on it. It is human instict to react this way. It is unfair to ask others to "ignore" their instincts. It is WE who need to adjust. I would not hold it against any friend for having difficulty adjusting to my changed lifestyle.


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How does an extreme HG dine with Vegetarians?

Posted by RocketHealer Jim++ on March 03, 1999 at 16:45:56:

In Reply to: Re: Cheating on the diet:food and friendship posted by Jenny on March 03, 1999 at 09:02:43:

People definitely eat much more for emotional reasons than for health. And if they do go on some weird diet for health reasons, then they very likely end up being socially isolated. To continue under that circumstance, they must do it for emotional reasons. So I doubt anyone ever eats for HEALTH! at all for any length of time. Always it is driven BY or TO emotional reasons.

You mention your church. I've been looking for a long time for a church that does not EAT! No luck so far. I doubt there are any, anywhere. So scratch that form of socialization/support. Or perhaps, as you suggest, a cyber-community!?

And how to you ever dine with vegetarians?

About how I'm personally dealing with all these issues, to put it simply, I'm not yet. I do plan to find a two-week period someday, but when? to experiment with perfect whole foods diet, but the elimination diet is out, at least for me. Fish-heads soup 3 times a day, no way!

RocketHealer (still analyzing the diet options) Jim++


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bring along your own leg of lamb?

Posted by Denise Wyrick on March 03, 1999 at 18:06:00:

In Reply to: How does an extreme HG dine with Vegetarians? posted by RocketHealer Jim++ on March 03, 1999 at 16:45:56:

Hi Jim, Well it does pose a dilemma but it is not unmanageble... I've yet to orchestrate something like a meal with others yet. Getting myself fed is a big enough job it seems. I think my good friends would be very supportive of my new project. BTW you would need to eat more than 3 bowls of fish head soup to get you through the day. One bowl doesn't come close to taking the edge off.

Should you decided to do the e-diet you will find the strength and resources to pull it off. Day 6 is much better than day 5... I think I am able to write sentences now without forgetting what I was writing.

Be well,
Denise



To cheat or not to cheat...

Posted by trish on March 03, 1999 at 18:56:19:

In Reply to: Cheating on the diet posted by Robert Herstein on March 02, 1999 at 10:18:59:

I don't really think that has to be the question. A few things will become obvious when you start trying to get healthy. First, the isolation factor is more in your own mind and is born of concern about being "different" than you are now. Of course, that's what you WANT, to be different (more healthy). I am not as sick as you are - just started with arthritis in my hands, but DO have LGS candida and constant fatigue - debilitating but not disabling.

My last attempt at this diet thing lasted around 7 or 8 months (the first half of last year) and then started falling apart slowly but steadily until I found myself back at square 1. I am writing to warn you about "cheating" because that's what became the beginning of the end for me. And I am sorry now that it happened. I feel bad again and have to start all over.

I am also writing to tell you that I didn't lose any friends over this. I am not sure why you feel that your friends have to change thier lifestyles or habits because you are eating a certain way...unless they are all vegans and you are a hunter gatherer. I still went out to eat a lot (after the initial couple of months) - I ordered steamed green vegetables and a chicken/fish/beef/lamb entrees with sauces on the side, or hold the sauce. I asked for rice instead of potatoes. I didn't eat the bread and depending on who I was with, just asked the waiter not to bring bread. None of my friend minded. In fact, after awhile, many of them were interested in what I was doing because of how good I looked!

Once you start to feel better, you won't miss your old diet so much - and really, you can get around the social stuff, too - there's almost always a raw vegetable plate and other diet friendly edibles around - or you just do the best you can in a given situation. You will be able to "cheat" a bit more safely as time goes by. NOT more often, just with less of an impact.

My own downfall was sugar. I thought I could handle a little dessert now and then - like you say every two weeks or so. Well, I was like an alcoholic going back to the bottle! Not overnight, mind you, but I slowly lost my resolve until I was eating everything in sight without any type of concern for its effect on me..It IS addictive, Robert.

I recently completed the elimination diet and am now on an anti-candida campaign. I am looking forward to once again being a picky eater and feeling and looking better than most of my friends do.

I encourage you to give it a shot - don't look at the negatives so much, they will fade away. I understand your anger at having to do this, but your anger won't help you to feel better. This diet will.

If you want to email me and discuss more, please feel free.

Good luck with your decision and I hope you feel better soon!

trish



Re: Cheating on the diet

Posted by Deb on March 04, 1999 at 03:26:51:

In Reply to: Re: Cheating on the diet (Critical information. Who are your real friends?) posted by Robert Herstein on March 03, 1999 at 15:46:21:

Rob,

Walt isn't asking you to do any diet for 6 months on faith. He is suggesting you do it for 6 days on faith. After that, your bodymind will have told you whether it is worth doing it for 6 months, or not.

And yes, he is suggesting we have a chemical dependency - maybe not all of us, but most. It would be a very rare person who isn't addicted to sugar or refined carbohydrates, at the very least. Food addictions are just as hard to break as drugs or cigarettes.

Once a person has experienced feeling better, surely it is not hard to say to friends "I feel bad when I eat ...., so no thank you".

Having said that, I am still having problems converting my understanding of what Walt is saying to a committment to actually doing it. At the moment, my plan is to do the E-diet at the beginning of May, when my flatmate goes away, and the tempting summer fruit is gone, and the winter veges I need are available. There, I've told you all - you can hold me to it!

Deb.

PS Congratulations to the current e-brigade, I have been following your progress with rapt attention.


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Re: Cheating on the diet (Critical information. Who are your real friends?)

Posted by Walt Stoll on March 04, 1999 at 11:16:02:

In Reply to: Re: Cheating on the diet (Critical information. Who are your real friends?) posted by Robert Herstein on March 03, 1999 at 15:46:21:

Hi, Rob.

The one thing you can be sure about me: I will not waste my time telling you what you want to hear.

Listen to deb. She understands what I have been saying if you do not.

For example, something your brain needs every second is sugar and the metabolism of same is the same in every living thing. Heroin is NOT needed every second by the brain and so the "addiction" to heroin is a lot less "gripping" than the "addiction" to sugar.

No professional who has worked with this more than a few months would disagree with this and no individual who has experienced it first hand would EVER disagree with it.

I am not here to convince anyone of anything but to offer participants the opportunity to help themselves. I have had more than 30 years of professional & personal experience with thousands of people struggling with these exact conditions.

"One can lead a horse to water-----------------------."

Walt



Re: Cheating on the diet

Posted by Walt Stoll on March 04, 1999 at 11:37:47:

In Reply to: Re: Cheating on the diet posted by Robert Herstein on March 03, 1999 at 15:22:30:

Dear Rob,

LISTEN TO JOSEPH!

I can remember when I was still in practice, there were patients who fit a certain catagory. We used to call them the "yes, but" patients,

No matter what we told them, if it required the least change in the life style that had gotten them in the fix they had come to us to "fix", they would say "yes, but".

It doesn't help that you have "tried" lots of other dietaty approaches to your psoritic arthritis because now you are suspicious of ANY approach. It is your LGS that is the most important "cause" of your arthritis and the complication of C-RS that makes YOUR case involve psoriasis.

In the long run it is the regular practice of SR that will make the most difference to you anyhow. I can just hear the "yes, but" coming.

Perhaps, if I can make you angry, you will find the energy to try to prove me wrong?

When you find yourself getting well, I hope you wil share your experiences with the BB participants. There is no one so enthusiastic than a reformed skeptic!

Good luck! Walt


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Re: Cheating on the diet

Posted by Robert Herstein on March 04, 1999 at 11:49:01:

In Reply to: Re: Cheating on the diet posted by Deb on March 04, 1999 at 03:26:51:

Deb,

I actually have already done the 6-day elimination diet, rather successfully. I unfortunately have no palate for fish nor any other seafood, so my eating options were very limited. I have found that I react poorly to both pears and peaches, so my elimination diet was further restricted. I've been trying to test foods from the H-G diet for several weeks already, with varying degrees of success. I've been in communications with Robert McFerran both by phone and email about it. He believes that I am an extreme H-G. I do not even tolerate turkey nor chicken, foods for which allergies are rare for an H-G. However, I have found that I tolerate beef, eggs, carrots, and celery very well, and they are now staples of my diet. That is it. Every other food I've tested has either failed to be tolerated or is in the "possible allergy" category.

Since I am having trouble expanding my diet, frustration is creeping in (which is no doubt and additional physical stressor). I don't believe I have a sugar dependency. I have a flavor dependency. Granted, the sweetness of sugar is hard to beat as a flavor, but I am currently limited to foods which are relatively bland.

I am not disputing that there is soundness in what purported benefits that the diet can bring. I AM saying that positive results are the biggest motivating factor in being able to follow it closely. I have experienced both extremes of results so far, even when following it very closely. My energy level is not up, but neither is my hunger. I am losing weight because I can't find enough foods to eat (I am very skinny already). My hand joints are so deformed that I'm scaring even myself, and feel that I may be delaying medical attention. Although we all seem to think that arthritis drugs are bad things in general, they have one disticnt advantage: they get results quickly. I'm not saying I would rely on arthritis meds long term, but I need more reassurance that following this diet is truly safe for me, and that I am not causing further damage to my joints by delaying getting "acute" medical intervention.


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Re: Cheating on the diet

Posted by Robert Herstein on March 04, 1999 at 11:58:55:

In Reply to: Re: Cheating on the diet posted by Walt Stoll on March 04, 1999 at 11:37:47:

Walt,

Yes, you hit the nail right on the head... I am a true skeptic, and proud of it. In my opinion, it is the fool who does not question what he doesn't understand. I am not about to take anyone's word for anything. They will have to explain their understanding of a concept and help me believe it, before I rest easy. This is ESPECIALLY true when it comes to my health. There is nothing I hold more sacred then my own health, and I am not about to let the ominous future of living with severe psoriatic arthrits deflate my efforts to learn and understand everything I can about the disease as well as ANY treatment I consider following.

This is why I am a PROUD skeptic. However, I am never too proud to admit that I was wrong if I can be converted to a "believer". I used to be very anti-alternative medicine when my condition first become terribly painful. When I started reading and becoming more educated about alternative medicine, it further fueled my interest to learn more. I believe I have benefitted from this knowledge and I will carry it with me for the rest of my life. Now, I consider myself highly educated in this area, and am not too proud to say that once, I didn't believe in any of it.


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Re: STICKING TO the diet (and dealing with family)

Posted by Sara on March 04, 1999 at 12:01:25:

In Reply to: Re: Cheating on the diet posted by Deb on March 04, 1999 at 03:26:51:

Just had to put my 2 cents in here.....

I just completed the e-diet, and am starting to test foods today. My husband has watched with curiosity and given me emotional support through this. My husband drinks soda throughout the day, is always snacking on something (chips, candy, etc.) and generally eats in a way that is 180 degrees out from the way I am eating now.

Last night, knowing that it was the end of the e-diet for me, he asked me "when are you going to be able to eat normally again." My first instinct was to ask him when he was going to START eating normally, but I understand that he doesn't have the interest or knowledge about this that I do (not trying to be arrogant). So I told him that I would be eating like this for a LONG time, and eventually when my candida is under control, there may be certain foods I can add to my diet that are no-no's now, but that my days of pigging out on junk food are over.

He basically knows why I'm doing the diet (we have talked about it on more than one occasion, but he really only absorbed a fraction of what I told him) but he doesn't know great detail about it, because he really isn't interested. But I don't care whether he understands or not. That's his issue, not mine.

I don't feel compelled to explain to family or friends why I'm eating what I'm eating (like having to justify it). I simply tell people I'm eating healthier these days because it makes me feel better. If they are sincerely interested in knowing more (because they are interested in their health also), I tell them.

Sara


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Re: Cheating on the diet

Posted by Robert McFerran on March 04, 1999 at 12:10:00:

In Reply to: Re: Cheating on the diet posted by Robert Herstein on March 04, 1999 at 11:49:01:

Hi Rob,

I just wanted to bring everyone up to speed and re-iterate some things that are very important.

Diet alone will not resolve your psoriatic arthritis -- but at the same time you will never completely resolve it WITHOUT the proper diet.

Candidiasis treatment alone will not resolve your psoriatic arthritis -- but at the same time you will never completely resolve it without proper antifungal treatment.

Skilled relaxation alone will not resolve your psoriatic arthritis -- but at the same time you will never completely resolve it without learning how to discharge stress to the point where normal blood flow to your intestinal tract is resolved.

We've talked about this stuff but lately we've been delving into the minutia of dietary manipulation, which is o.k., but I DON'T want folks to think it's the end all as other 'experts' might suggest.

I don't think that people realize what you are facing with the rapid damage that the psoriatic arthritis is doing to your hands. The clock IS ticking and 6 months of doing the wrong thing is enough time for this type of condition to completely destroy joints. That goes for drugs too since, as you know, most of the DMARDS like MTX and Plaquenil take 3-6 months of waiting to kick in.

If I were you I'd hedge my bets and seek immediate drug therapies that are capable of stopping joint damage while at the same time embarking on the things discussed earlier in this note. The two are not mutually exclusive.

Bob


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Addictive behaviors and relapse

Posted by Denise Wyrick on March 04, 1999 at 12:30:07:

In Reply to: Re: STICKING TO the diet (and dealing with family) posted by Sara on March 04, 1999 at 12:01:25:

Hi Sara, I like your thinking on this... we don't need to be defensive about making a healthy choice for ourselves do we now! I have been thinking about how good it feels to have taken the step toward something that I have been thinking about since last summer actually. At first I just said I could eat a little bit of junk... but it became even more compelling to do that and would not be just a little bit of junk. What I know and this is not going to be easy to apply is that I must exercise great caution. Because a little slip is not just a little slip. I would be like an alcoholic looking for a drink. Now that I know I have made it a week without sugar I know I can make it even longer. I also realize the dangers of slipping and how a little bit, would turn out to be a little bit more..etc. I know how easy it is to go back there. I experienced that with my beloved double caps but my body-mind gave me a real clear message via asthma that I can't go back and have good health in doing that.

I appreciate this discussion and the clarity is gives me since I am still pretty new to this notion of watching my food intake. But I feel really good about how it is strenghtening me in more ways than just my physical body.

Namaste,
Denise





Follow Ups:


Re: Cheating on the diet

Posted by Louise on March 04, 1999 at 12:50:08:

In Reply to: Re: Cheating on the diet posted by Robert Herstein on March 04, 1999 at 11:58:55:

Robert,

You may not be able to recieve this, but I will try anyway...

You said :

"There is nothing I hold more sacred then my own health"

If this is really true, I see this as the real problem.

Is there truly *nothing* more important?

Not your soul, your spirit, any higher power, God, eternity, nothing? What would you be willing to do to gain your health? Would you sacrafice others for your health? Would you inflict suffering on loved ones to acheive your health?

Words and thoughts hold great power.
I hope you give this some consideration.

Louise


Follow Ups:


Re: Cheating on the diet

Posted by Robert Herstein on March 04, 1999 at 14:38:38:

In Reply to: Re: Cheating on the diet posted by Louise on March 04, 1999 at 12:50:08:

Louise,

I used that phrase to emphasize that I will work as hard as anyone to give myself the best chance as possible at being in "generally" good health, which is still a relative term. Perhaps my attempt at emphasizing my committment to becoming as healthy as possible sent the wrong signals to some. I was trying to indicate to Dr. Stoll that many people are not proactive with regard to their health -- they will do exactly as their health practitioner tells them to do. I am not one such person. I value my health too greatly and do not have enough faith in others who "think" they know what is best for me. I believe that educating oneself about one's conditions and how to improve them is an obligation that each person should have to themselves. In reality, many people do not make informed decisions about their health, and rather, let others tell them what to do. Perhaps it is because they don't believe they are capabale of understanding all the medical jargon; perhaps they are just plain lazy. I am none of the above. I take full responsiblity for making every decision about my health. My health practitioner/doctor is there to help me, because I certainly am not fitted with all the knowledge one needs to be able to make all my health decisions be informed ones. In such cases, I read and research and talk and write to bulletin boards until I gain sufficient knowledge to make me feel comfortable making those decisions.

Indeed, I do regard my family and other loved ones as extremely important to me. However, if I had to choose between hurting their feelings, or giving myself a chance at a pain-free existence, I might make a selfish decision in this case.


Follow Ups:


Re: Addictive behaviors and relapse

Posted by Robert Herstein on March 04, 1999 at 14:48:29:

In Reply to: Addictive behaviors and relapse posted by Denise Wyrick on March 04, 1999 at 12:30:07:

Denise,

I am curious -- just how did you come to realize that a "little slip" is not just a "little slip?" How did you come to "realize the dangers of slipping?" I guess that I haven't made these mistakes yet, so I don't have that negative reinforcement to keep me from wondering "what if I just had a little piece of ...". It's like when you were a kid and your Mom told you not to take another cookie from the cookie jar, because she "said so" (no real warning). We all, of course, wanted and reached for that cookie, but when we got caught with our hand in the jar, we got in trouble (spanked, sent to our room, etc.). That tought us not to do it the next time.

There's an old cliche "you learn from your mistakes," and I think it applies for me. I'm not really sure what my boundaries are and I guess I'll never know until I test those boundaries and get "smacked in the face" when I extend beyond them.


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Re: Cheating on the diet

Posted by Johnelle on March 04, 1999 at 16:28:21:

In Reply to: Re: Cheating on the diet posted by Robert Herstein on March 04, 1999 at 14:38:38:

Robert

I'm just wondering, since you hang out at this site, have
you actually done the skilled relaxations recommended by so
many? I was in a sorry state with fibromyalgia, LGS and
C-RS, and I couldn't believe that difference it has made to
practice SR twice daily.

If you have tried it, I am truly intrigued by your not
profiting from it. If you HAVE NOT, why do you even hang
out at this bulletin board? The recommendation of SR
totally saturates every recommended course of treatment, it
seems to me.

I'm not a confrontational person, so I hesitated posting in
this little dialogue, but I couldn't stay silent on the
benefits of SR. As Dr. Stoll had said, it has given me more
"bang for my buck" than anything else I've


Follow Ups:


Re: Addictive behaviors and relapse

Posted by Johnelle on March 04, 1999 at 16:48:04:

In Reply to: Re: Addictive behaviors and relapse posted by Robert Herstein on March 04, 1999 at 14:48:29:

Robert

I am the third and final survivor in the E-brigade quartet
that has made the initial six-day journey. Let me tell you
how I know that it doesn't pay off to slip. At breakfast
this morning I introduced my first new food to the "safe
list" of E-diet foods, a chicken thigh. It was absolutely
wonderful to have all that FAT! I had the identical meal at
lunch but added fresh steamed green beans. As I sat down to
the computer 45 minutes later to catch up on Walt's BB news,
BAM, the reaction to the green beans started. Within about
five minutes I was laying down on the couch. The symptoms
were widespread aching, especially in the area of the
sternum, muscle spasms, heart palpitations, tingling in the
extremities, headache, just general misery. I was so
grateful to learn that for me green beans are not okay,
although they are generally considered a healthy food. A
month ago I would have said the misery was from a fatty
meal, and I would have backed off of fat but not green
beans.

The same very vivid reaction will occur as I eat any foods
that aren't good for ME. I am so grateful to have gone
through this process the last six days and to be in a
"clear" state to I can test and know without a doubt what
foods I react to. Interestingly, the physical challenge of
fibromyalgia was what motivated me to do the diet, and the
reaction was like a condensed fibro flare. I think I'm onto
someting here!

One other thing, when people inquire about what I'm doing I
start out by saying it's a long story and they probably
wouldn't be interested but that I'm feeling so much better.
If they pursue it, I get into it more and more, and I have
been amazed at how interested everyone is, because they
identify with the vicious cycle of craving the wrong foods
that I talk about. I have had an opportunity to "tell my
story" to at least four people already today, and I've been
home since noon.

My sweet husband has grilled trout five nights straight for
me, and some afternoons my 17-yr-old son has pitched in and
grilled a trout for an afternoon snack of protein that I was
craving. I have had on hand for them shorter versions of
what they have always eaten and have not slighted them by
only focusing on the foods I am eating. I have felt very
supported by family and friends. They know what I have gone
through with FM, and they are cheering me on in my pursuit
of good health. I hope you have a support system as well.
I even had a dinner party for eight the second day of the
E-diet. We grilled steak for them and trout for me, but
they were really salivating over my trout. One couple is
coming back for grilled trout this Friday, and I'm having
grille



Re: Cheating on the diet

Posted by Robert McFerran on March 04, 1999 at 16:49:04:

In Reply to: Re: Cheating on the diet posted by Johnelle on March 04, 1999 at 16:28:21:

Johnelle,

I just wanted to add something that I've experienced that is 'neat' having to do with skilled relaxation, hyper-acute reactions to foods (similar to your green bean episode) and especially reactions to chemicals.

If you practice skilled relaxation IMMEDIATELY BEFORE being exposed to food or inhaled allergens your reactions will still be there yet they will be less severe.

When my leaky gut was at it's worst I couldn't stand to be in a bookstore for more than 5-10 minutes without developing headache, buring eyes, joint pains, and skin irritation. Undoubtably this was due to the solvents in the inks. This made it tough to browse to say the least! Even after a short exposure it would take me about an hour to clear any symptoms from that exposure.

By chance I went to pick up a book after a meditation session and I noticed that when I came out of the bookstore that I didn't feel the way I usually did. My eyes were still red and stinging a little but much less than usual. Since that time I've learned that whenever I'm going to be forced into an environmentally stressful situation that I can take 5 minutes to get relaxed into an alpha state before going in.

I should tell you that I can tolerate bookstores for a couple of hours now with no problems. I don't think that I could work in one though.......

Bob


Follow Ups:


Re: Addictive behaviors and relapse

Posted by Johnelle on March 04, 1999 at 16:52:54:

In Reply to: Re: Addictive behaviors and relapse posted by Robert Herstein on March 04, 1999 at 14:48:29:

That's GRILLED STEAK I'M HAVING!........................






Re: Addictive behaviors and relapse

Posted by trish on March 04, 1999 at 17:28:48:

In Reply to: Re: Addictive behaviors and relapse posted by Robert Herstein on March 04, 1999 at 14:48:29:

See my post in response to your initial message. It's funny, but I used the alcoholic analogy as well.

I think you'll be pleasantly suprprised if you do go ahead and establish boundaries. And you might be equally surprised when you try to test them.

I really thought I had it down pat -under control...But, maybe it is Learn from your Mistakes for many of us! Until you do it, you DON'T really know.

I am glad you started this thread, look at the great response you've gotten! We are all rooting for you, Robert, and hope you will share with us as you move forward.

Be well,
trish



Re: Cheating on the diet

Posted by Johnelle on March 04, 1999 at 17:47:21:

In Reply to: Re: Cheating on the diet posted by Robert McFerran on March 04, 1999 at 16:49:04:

Yes, I've had the same sensitivities when I walk into
department stores, and esecially in fabric stores, so I
assume it's from the dyes. Maybe Half-Price Book Stores
would be more suited for you!!! I found some wonderful
books from Dr. Stoll's list in his book there. Lots of
folks out there who have good intentions but just can't
stick with the pursuit of good health, I presume.

Your alpha boost before entering bookstores is very
interesting. I am not skilled enough with my SR to go right
into an alpha state yet -- but my sound and light device
sure helps. I put the headphones and glasses on when I was
suffering on the couch today, so at least all was not for
naught!............



Re: Addictive behaviors and relapse

Posted by Denise Wyrick on March 04, 1999 at 18:11:35:

In Reply to: Re: Addictive behaviors and relapse posted by Robert Herstein on March 04, 1999 at 14:48:29:

Hi Rob, To answer your question about the little slips and the big slips. I quit drinking capuccinos in July of last year and started thinking about how to improve my diet (but was not in anyway shape or form perfect) I also became increasingly aware of the need to be "perfect". So the mindset for me was I'm not being perfect on the diet, I still have symptoms, so I might as well slip and have a cap every once in awhile. So in about November I had a really stressful time. My sister came to visit for a week. I was trying to paint a room in my house (sister offered to help) RIGHT The company was stressful. I got little or no help on the paint job from sister. I had a cup, then a few days later I had another cup. By Christmas I was feeling pretty depressed and eating all the junk that was given to me in the way of candies/cookies etc and drinking coffee almost daily. Well now in response to that little slip, I started having asthma attacks. This is not something I was recently prone to although I had a bout with asthma in response to living with a cat about 25 years ago. I had been asthma free since I gave up the cat back then. Anyway, for me those "little slips" and saying well I am not doing the protocol anyway so why not have a cup of coffee that led to drinking more coffee and an escalation of symptoms. My body mind says "Hey Denise you better pay attention here" It took me until Feb 25 to screw up the courage to do the diet, although I discussed it everyday with my husband. So I have a pretty good first hand understanding of how the little ones turn to big ones. I also know how difficult it was to even initiate the diet. Now that I have suffered in doing it, I don't want to negate my efforts and fall off the wagon again. The costs are just too high.

Rob you have started a very illuminating discussion here. I appreciate what you are saying. I have more thoughts on the isolation factor. However, my energy level is sagging right now. I hope this helps.. and most of all I hope it makes sense (because my senses are foggy)

Namaste,
Denise

PS: trish I think we are starting to think a like :-0



Re: Cheating on the diet (parroting the monopoly)

Posted by Walt Stoll on March 05, 1999 at 10:39:20:

In Reply to: Re: Cheating on the diet posted by Robert Herstein on March 04, 1999 at 11:49:01:

Deare Rob,

Name me ONE allopathic treatment for arthritis that prevents "further damage" in joints. ALL that I know about promote further damage while relieving temporary symptoms.

You are parroting the conventional paradigm monopoly's scare tactics (warnings) used to keep people from utilizing self-help approaches.

Think about it! I wouldn't be bothering to comment here if I did not respect your thinking for yourself. Keep doing so & you will come out better in the end than if you depend on the conventional "treatments" that everyone knows do nothing about the causes of chronic conditions.

Walt



Follow Ups:


Re: STICKING TO the diet (and dealing with family)

Posted by Walt Stoll on March 05, 1999 at 10:43:39:

In Reply to: Re: STICKING TO the diet (and dealing with family) posted by Sara on March 04, 1999 at 12:01:25:

You got it, Sara!

We all have to go through this additional burden of family but the successful ones come to something like YOUR accomodation. Congratulations!

Walt



Re: Cheating on the diet (EVERYONE! Listen to Bob!) (Archive) NMI

Posted by Walt Stoll on March 05, 1999 at 10:46:40:

In Reply to: Re: Cheating on the diet posted by Robert McFerran on March 04, 1999 at 12:10:00:

NMI What could I add????!!!!

Walt



Re: Cheating on the diet

Posted by Robert Herstein on March 05, 1999 at 11:00:38:

In Reply to: Re: Cheating on the diet posted by Johnelle on March 04, 1999 at 16:28:21:

Johnelle,

No, I have never tried skilled relaxation techniques. I am not beyond attempting to use it in my daily routines at some point. It makes me a bit uneasy, however, that you should question my presence at this bulletin board whether I do or don't practice SR. You must realize that any one particular treatment does not have the same level of benefit for everyone. That is not to say that I would not benefit greatly by using SR, but it certainly does not make me less qualified to ask questions and contribute to this bulletin board. What I hope you have learned in your own presence here is that it is a combination of therapies which gives the greatest benefit, not one alone. I am glad that you have found that SR has been an extremely useful technique for improving your health, but to expect that everyone will get the same level of benefit that you have gotten is asking a lot.


Follow Ups:


Re: Addictive behaviors and relapse

Posted by Walt Stoll on March 05, 1999 at 11:03:26:

In Reply to: Addictive behaviors and relapse posted by Denise Wyrick on March 04, 1999 at 12:30:07:

Thanks, Denise!

I hope everyone reads your note!

Namaste` to you! Walt



Re: Cheating on the diet (parroting the monopoly)

Posted by Robert Herstein on March 05, 1999 at 11:15:47:

In Reply to: Re: Cheating on the diet (parroting the monopoly) posted by Walt Stoll on March 05, 1999 at 10:39:20:

Walt,

I understand what you are saying. It is my understanding that DMARDs such as methotrexate, plaquenil, and the new arava, are all drugs which will have only positive effects on the joints. They are immunosuppresants which prevent the proliferation of immune cells which cause joint inflammation. Their "bad" effects are that they can damage other systems and organs, including the liver, eyes, and lymphatic system. Some people choose to live with the risk of these dangerous effects, because they have not found relief elsewhere. I would not make any of these medications a FIRST recommendation for anyone; however, in the event that every conventional and alternative therapy attempted has failed to control one's arthritis, should the individual just give up, let their joints continue to deteriorate, get joint replacements, become depressed, etc.? No, of course not, drugs DO have their place. They should be considered a fallback or safety net in the event that NOTHING else has proven to provide an acceptable level of relief. The drugs, themselves, may not provide the desired relief, but in the event that everything else has failed, they should be considered a last resort.


Follow Ups:


Re: Cheating on the diet

Posted by Johnelle on March 05, 1999 at 15:55:32:

In Reply to: Re: Cheating on the diet posted by Robert Herstein on March 05, 1999 at 11:00:38:

Try it, you'll like it! .... maybe?................






Re: Cheating on the diet (parroting the monopoly)

Posted by Walt Stoll on March 06, 1999 at 09:48:48:

In Reply to: Re: Cheating on the diet (parroting the monopoly) posted by Robert Herstein on March 05, 1999 at 11:15:47:

Hi, Rob.

NOW, why do you think immunodepressants would help prevent joint damage? Could it possibly be PRECISELY because what we have been talking about on this BB for years is "right on"?

Next: I would really like to see long term research (longer than 5 years) that showed significant reduction of joint damage after that much time. Allopathic medicine is great at getting short term benefits and then forgetting about the long term effects since they do not support the original concepts OR benefits. The public's memory is short
--something the AMA knows well and exploits at every opportunity.

It is interesting that James Cobern is getting back into movies BECAUSE "holistic medicine" solved his arthritic problem. He is doing interviews on national news programs (I saw one today.) in which he is telling his story about his being progressively crippled by arthritis for years to the point where he could no longer perform.

It is not difficult to resolve arthritis. What IS difficult is getting people to learn enough that they are willing to do what works.

Walt


Follow Ups:


Re: Cheating on the diet (parroting the monopoly)

Posted by Robert McFerran on March 06, 1999 at 13:24:06:

In Reply to: Re: Cheating on the diet (parroting the monopoly) posted by Walt Stoll on March 06, 1999 at 09:48:48:

Walt,

I've been watching James Coburn and his fight against arthritis over the years. He is the CLASSIC example of an extreme Agriculturist metabolism.

He saw dramatic improvement when moving to a vegetarian diet years ago. Recently he has seen another quantum bounce from taking 2 tsps. of MSM each day. I've found that MSM is effective for Agriculturists while it does nothing for H-G and Mixed types.

Bob


Follow Ups:


Re: Cheating on the diet (parroting the monopoly)

Posted by Robert Herstein on March 06, 1999 at 13:44:00:

In Reply to: Re: Cheating on the diet (parroting the monopoly) posted by Walt Stoll on March 06, 1999 at 09:48:48:

Walt,

You are correct, immunosuppressants will not STOP joint degradation. However, they will SLOW DOWN joint degradation. This can have the effect of providing a patient with more time to explore alternative therapies, because without any therapy which is preventing joint inflammation, the cartilage in their joints is doomed to wear away until it is completely gone, in which case it is likely that nothing can save the joint -- a joint replacement may be inevitable.

I believe that any study would easily prove that joint degradation prevented by a DMARD would be SIGNIFICANTLY less than if using no inflammation-controlling therapy at all. I feel very strongly about this. Being able to find a therapy or combination of therapies which DOES provide an "acceptable" level of inflammation control is easier for some than for others. To make a blanket statement that DMARDs are ALWAYS bad is a heavy generalization. If you are suggesting that there are therapies which will ALWAYS generate better results for EVERY SINGLE PERSON affected with severe arthritis, then I think you have made another strong generalization. These drugs may be bad for our general health over the long term, but for some people who are "resistant" to every alternative therapy they've tried, these drugs offer a safety net which might offer a chance at their not living a life of horribly painful existence.



Follow Ups:


Re: STICKING TO the diet (and dealing with family)

Posted by wendy on March 06, 1999 at 13:51:32:

In Reply to: Re: STICKING TO the diet (and dealing with family) posted by Sara on March 04, 1999 at 12:01:25:

Sarah
Congraultations first on your achievement with the e-diet_I have been following all the way this week and it has been a wonderful experience.
You have so much discipline, to eat for yourself and to know that it is your husband's problem how he eats. I must CONFESS I just use my family as a big excuse not to be able to continue as I would like. I am often away visiting family and my elderly mother on weekends. She spends her life eating chocolate.They have no idea of a healthy diet.I take along articles and books and foods (more to convince myself than them) And it is so easy for me to just follow along with my old habits and fit in with what they eat. Short of lugging my entire kitchen and frig away with me on weekends, I am at my wits end. Or shopping separately and keeping food there and it is HARD enough to get good food into my OWN kitchen on a weekly basis, AND to plan lunches being out at work all day.

My question to you I guess, and I am sorry for going on like this,none of which is YOUR problem; is,
How did you come to be able to understand and keep separate your own needs from your husband so well. I DO understand Hugh (my partner), but I also know I am deeply angry that he doesn't share my interest in wellness. When I truly GET IT that his eating habits ae not my problem (and not my habits either, if I choose not to have them)then I can progress. I am about to give up. It is overwhelming. He has REALLY bad psoriasis and he really doesn't care about it. Otherwise he is very "fit" and works physically very hard. I can't fault him. He is just VERY different from myself.
Sorry, this is so much stuff, It is my own need to get it out. That is healing in itself I know. Take care.
And good luck - enjoy your wonderful new diet and renewed wellness.
wendy


Follow Ups:


Re: STICKING TO the diet (and dealing with family)

Posted by Sara on March 06, 1999 at 17:16:30:

In Reply to: Re: STICKING TO the diet (and dealing with family) posted by wendy on March 06, 1999 at 13:51:32:

Wendy,

First of all, my husband and I have been married almost 26 years now (come March 17th), so after that many years, I guess you just become more tolerant of each other's differences. I spent many years trying to change him, and he did the same with me. I guess we just gave up at some point and accepted each other as we were! There are times, however, that he does get on my last nerve (I AM human, after all) with his health habits (like when I was on Day 1 of the e-diet, and he was eating all kinds of junk food in front of me), but usually it just doesn't get to me that much. He doesn't have as many health problems as I do, so he doesn't have that to motivate him. I have had health problems all my life, so I got interested in wellness when I was only 20. It has taken me 24 years to get to where I am today.

My husband spent 26 years in the Navy (we married after he had been in about two years), and he was gone ALOT. I'm sure that greatly contributed to us being able to separate our own needs (for survival, if nothing else!).

You need to look within yourself to try and figure out why this is making you so angry (because that definately is not healthy for you). Just a few thoughts from an old Navy wife:

Do you need him to be doing this with you because you need his acceptance?

Is it because it is easier (obviously) when there is someone doing it with you?

Does it mean you having to cook two different meals if he isn't on the same diet as you? (That one's easy to fix; he cooks his OWN meals when he doesn't want to eat what you're eating.)

Is it because maybe deep down inside you're afraid of losing him because you are growing in a different direction? (That was an issue for my husband and I some years back.)

Or it could be because you are having to deny yourself certain foods that you would REALLY like to eat, and he's eating anything he wants.

Anyway, if nothing else, make sure you are doing your SR because the anger you are feeling is not doing you any good. I can relate to what you are feeling though - I've been there. E-mail me if you'd like.

Take care,
Sara


Follow Ups:


MSM and Hunter Gatherers

Posted by Michael Kramer on March 06, 1999 at 17:38:31:

In Reply to: Re: Cheating on the diet (parroting the monopoly) posted by Robert McFerran on March 06, 1999 at 13:24:06:

Bob:
I am confirmation of your claim about whom MSM helps. I've tried it twice. Did nothing for me. I am an extreme Hunter-Gatherer.

On the other hand I can't seem to tolerate L-Glutamine, and it is supposed to help H-Gs.

Mike


Follow Ups:


Re: MSM and Hunter Gatherers

Posted by Robert McFerran on March 06, 1999 at 20:39:55:

In Reply to: MSM and Hunter Gatherers posted by Michael Kramer on March 06, 1999 at 17:38:31:

Hi Mike,

Thanks for your experience with the MSM.

What do you mean when you say you can't tolerate the l-glutamine?

Have you tried the creatine monohydrate?

Bob


Follow Ups:


Re: STICKING TO the diet (and dealing with family)

Posted by Johnelle on March 06, 1999 at 20:53:06:

In Reply to: Re: STICKING TO the diet (and dealing with family) posted by Sara on March 06, 1999 at 17:16:30:

Good message and good thoughts, Sara. I learn so much from
you and your posts. Thanks for donating your time!
Johnelle
...................



Re: Cheating on the diet (Complementary Medicine)

Posted by Walt Stoll on March 07, 1999 at 09:29:31:

In Reply to: Re: Cheating on the diet (parroting the monopoly) posted by Robert Herstein on March 06, 1999 at 13:44:00:

Hi, Rob.

I see nothing wrong with taking any of these things so long as that is not all that is done. I hope I have made this plain all these years. After all, my forte has always been combining conventional medicine with alternatives to produce a truly COMPLEMENTARY medical approach. You will notice that the title of this 'site describes this approach.

The reason for my slant, when discussing this, is that there are many thousands of physicians who say that the allopathic way is the only way and there are only a few docs like me.

I STILL would greatly appreciate seeing any studies, that lasted more than 5 years, that showed that ANY immunosuppressive therapy produced a less damaged joint (over that period of time) than those who had done a holistic approach (OR, for that matter, ANY other approach.)

Walt



Re: MSM and Hunter Gatherers

Posted by Mike Kramer on March 07, 1999 at 22:03:42:

In Reply to: Re: MSM and Hunter Gatherers posted by Robert McFerran on March 06, 1999 at 20:39:55:

Hi Bob:
I have a sensitive gut. The L-Glutamine upset my digestion. I can't remember if it gave me diarrhea or gas.

I've been taking the creatine (700 mg 3 times a day) and haven't really noticed improvement, but it didn't make me worse.

I am still trying to introduce the H-G supplements. I have been taking them one at a time and building up to the recommended dosage. But I think I will not be able to take a number of them. I think the pantothenic acid at only 100 mg once a day was irritating my gut. I tried the chelated calcium and that too seemed to irritate me. I haven't yet tried the hydroxyapatite (spelling?) form of calcium. But I will get to it eventually.

I know that I can tolerate A, C, E and zinc, all of which I am taking. I have been taking the niacinamide for 1 1/2 weeks. I am not sure about it yet. I haven't yet started the inositol/choline or B12. I have taken B12 before so that shouldn't be a problem.

I've got my buffalo jerky all packed up. I am going on a trip early tomorrow morning, returning late Tuesday. I'll be looking at the board Wednesday again, if I can squeeze in the time.

Good hunting,
Mike



Re: STICKING TO the diet (and dealing with family)

Posted by wendy gorst on March 09, 1999 at 23:14:07:

In Reply to: Re: STICKING TO the diet (and dealing with family) posted by Sara on March 06, 1999 at 17:16:30:

Hi Sara:
You hit all the nails right on the head! Mostly though, it would be easier to do the diet together, and I really do enjoy eating some of those foods I need to lose.

However, the big thing is I am so scared of growing apart. Someone within the last months went over all this ground - don't remember who,(I rather skimmed it I guess as it was TOO close to home) - I would search the archives just to get more of a grip on the mechanisms at work (anyone recall name of postings??)

Our relationship is 3 years young; he never restricts me in any way; however, he just does not have the same philosophies that I believe in and I can gradually feel myself letting them go, almost feel myself slipping away.
Nuff said for now. Gotta get that SR started. Gotta go with my flow.

I know my real obstacle is actually only ME.
Easy so easy to project all that onto another and say, bad you for not looking after your body; while mine is dying daily!!!!
thanks for the understanding Sara.
I will also Email you. tiredness fog rolls in by mid-week so it is hard for me to get to do the things I would REALLY like to be doing, if you get my drift.
Namaste
wendy




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