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Bob & Walt - more diet experiences

Posted by
Sara on March 12, 1999 at 09:34:08:

Bob & Walt,

I had posted over a week ago about some of the positive effects the diet has had on me. I mentioned my pulse rate going down (it's staying around 72), my weight increasing (it is holding steady now), and my cold feet are not blocks of ice anymore; they actually get warm!

Now it just hit me when I woke up this morning, that I haven't had any evening hot flashes or any night sweats since I started the e-diet (and we're on day 15 now). My doctor had tested my hormone levels, thinking that was what was causing the hot flashes & night sweats, but my tests always came back normal. All other tests he ran were always normal, and we never could figure out what was causing them. But they both seem to be gone now!

I have noticed one other thing (not positive) in just the past week. I have been woken up three times in the middle of the night with leg cramps. They are in my calves, and it happens when, in my sleep, I stretch my legs out, and in the middle of doing it, WHAM! - major leg cramps. Is that happening because I'm not taking any calcium right now, and I have suspended my magnesium injections too?

Thanks,
Sara



Same problem with cramps

Posted by Johnelle on March 12, 1999 at 10:18:16:

In Reply to: Bob & Walt - more diet experiences posted by Sara on March 12, 1999 at 09:34:08:

Sara, Bob and Walt
I too have noticed my toes cramping a little at times, a
problem from the past.
Johnelle...............



Re: Bob & Walt - more diet experiences

Posted by
Robert McFerran on March 12, 1999 at 11:05:14:

In Reply to: Bob & Walt - more diet experiences posted by Sara on March 12, 1999 at 09:34:08:

Sara,

I've seen others have leg cramps like this. Some think that it's tied to their increased activity level (since they feel better). I've also experienced them too from time to time.

Personally I have not been able to find a strong correlation between this cramping and any one mineral supplement or even my skilled relaxation practice.

I tend to get them when I stretch in the morning while still in bed. I do the same sometimes in the middle of the night and it can trigger the cramps.

Do me a favor and try some yellow squash with your evening meal and see if that helps. I've noticed that many of the vegetables (except for squash) are relatively low in potassium.

Thanks,

Bob



Re: Bob - a question

Posted by
Sara on March 12, 1999 at 12:06:43:

In Reply to: Re: Bob & Walt - more diet experiences posted by Robert McFerran on March 12, 1999 at 11:05:14:

Bob,

Thanks, I will add some summer squash (which I've already tested) to my dinner menu tonight.

I'm going to start testing milk tomorrow, and wanted to know if when I test it I can use different forms (milk, half & half, unsalted butter), or do I stick to the same form throughout the test?

Also, when testing spelt, I planned on using spelt berries (cooked). Will that work?

Thanks,
Sara



Sara, glad you're doing so well! besides the charlie horses...

Posted by
trish on March 12, 1999 at 13:20:59:

In Reply to: Bob & Walt - more diet experiences posted by Sara on March 12, 1999 at 09:34:08:

I did not drop off the face of the earth, but close to it. I have a new dog! I'm having extreme reactions to it, too. Exhaustion and muscle cramps (from not being used enough until now!). My vet had taken him in from the police as a stray and he was headed for the pound when I happened in to pick up some medication for my dog. Well, I got the medication and a whole other dog to boot! He's a gem and being neutered today, but I'm pooped! I'm trying to incorporate this very active, very young, golden retriever/border collie mix into my household of a lab/shepherd mix three cats and a parrot! Yikes ! (Well, really i'm in heaven)

As far as the diet goes - no reactions to butter, shrimp, freshwater prawns, scallops, mung beans, bakers yeast or buffalo! Didn't try brewer's yeast yet, since I figured I'd have to go to the health food store for that, and all I've been doing is dog stuff! Now what I really want is a decaf double tall skim latte from starbucks! And maybe some romaine lettuce.

I've honestly been worried that my exhaustion might be masking any reactions. The mung beans I made into a soup with chicken legs and spinach. I had a little mild intestinal cramping (from the fiber?)and some gas after that, but nothing big. Would that even be considered a reaction?

Glad to see you're all going forward so easily! I must admit I'm frustrated. I just know I'm not feeling great because of the candida, and since I"ve had no reactions to speak of, I'm chomping at the bit to do the nystatin and pepto bismol things and GET THIS STUFF OUTTA HERE! :-)

trish



Me too

Posted by
Mike kramer on March 12, 1999 at 14:33:26:

In Reply to: Same problem with cramps posted by Johnelle on March 12, 1999 at 10:18:16:

Wow! The light bulb just lit. I too have noticed more leg and foot cramps since I started the H-G diet at the end of December. I don't remember everyone's type. Are just H-G's noticing this or is it across the spectrum.



Re: Pretty sure I'm H-G (nmi)

Posted by
Sara on March 12, 1999 at 15:17:00:

In Reply to: Me too posted by Mike kramer on March 12, 1999 at 14:33:26:

.



Re: Me too

Posted by
Kathy McEvoy on March 12, 1999 at 15:23:41:

In Reply to: Me too posted by Mike kramer on March 12, 1999 at 14:33:26:

Similar pain - different body part. I am also H-G. Since starting eating for that type, I have noticed daily, intense stomach pain (cramps). Are all these pains due to change in diet? (Dr. Stoll, your thoughts, please) The leg and foot pains sound more like mineral changes. My stomach pains might be intestinal changes? Hope they don't last too long!

Kathy



trish, could mold from mung sprouts have aggravated candida? (NMI)

Posted by
Deb on March 12, 1999 at 15:28:14:

In Reply to: Sara, glad you're doing so well! besides the charlie horses... posted by trish on March 12, 1999 at 13:20:59:

NMI = no message inside



Re: Bob - a question

Posted by
Robert McFerran on March 12, 1999 at 15:39:12:

In Reply to: Re: Bob - a question posted by Sara on March 12, 1999 at 12:06:43:

Sara,

Test whole milk. You'll want to test butter separately since some folks have a strong reaction to milk but a very mild reaction to butter. If that happened you would eliminate milk (in the liquid form) but only avoid butter (which to me means that you can use it occassionally if in small, condiment sized amounts.

I have no idea about the spelt berries. Since I perceive that you won't be eating spelt berries on a regular basis but rather are looking for an acceptable bread I would go ahead and test it in the bread form. If you have a reaction to something else in the bread form you're not probably going to go back to eating the berries.

Bob



Re: Sara, glad you're doing so well! besides the charlie horses...

Posted by Johnelle on March 12, 1999 at 16:00:32:

In Reply to: Sara, glad you're doing so well! besides the charlie horses... posted by trish on March 12, 1999 at 13:20:59:

Trish
What is this Pepto Bismol thing? I've had longstanding
leaky gut but never have felt the exhaustion you associate
with candida, just muscle fatigue in the shoulders. I
notice it before anything else when I have a reaction to a
food, just the feeling of weight on my shoulders. If I'm
wearing a sweater I usually have to take it off because the
weight of it feels so much greater. I'm sure I must have
candida, though I've never tested for it. Have had a vague
recurring rash around my mouth and had a big time carb.
addiction before getting entangled in this diet.
Johnelle........



Thanks, Deb, but I had mung beans (dried) in my soup...

Posted by
trish on March 12, 1999 at 16:32:28:

In Reply to: trish, could mold from mung sprouts have aggravated candida? (NMI) posted by Deb on March 12, 1999 at 15:28:14:

I'm not even sure I had a "reaction" in fact. But thanks for the suggestion - I have heard that sprouts carried mold.

be well!
trish



Pepto bismol thing

Posted by
trish on March 12, 1999 at 16:41:05:

In Reply to: Re: Sara, glad you're doing so well! besides the charlie horses... posted by Johnelle on March 12, 1999 at 16:00:32:

Hi Johnelle!

I'm not sure how to answer that. Bob has a Pepto test he does to determine if people have a bacterial problem in the gut. Something about taking Pepto tablets before retiring at night and seeing how you feel in the morning. He has made me wait until the end of the food testing (I guess maybe longer) to do that, along with holding off on the nystatin *sigh* I'm just antsy because I'm quite convinced that the nystatin WILL help me.

I'm still not sure if I have had a reaction to anyhting. I don't think I would be that sensitive to notice a weakness in my shoulders, I guess. That's what's got me worried a bit that I am perhaps approached this backwards - shoulda gotten the candida under control FIRST and THEN done the E diet! Time will tell, I suppose!

I'm happy for you that you have had such success with this amazing process! Keep it up!

trish



Re: Pepto bismol thing

Posted by
Robert McFerran on March 12, 1999 at 19:11:42:

In Reply to: Pepto bismol thing posted by trish on March 12, 1999 at 16:41:05:

Trish,

I just wanted to let you know that MOST folks (including myself) ran the elimination diet prior to treating candidiasis. If you have a significant food allergy you WILL feel the reaction.

Remember, one of the most important things that we are doing by eliminating food allergens AND moving you to the appropriate metabolic diet is to pull physiological stress off of your system -- and, in turn, bump up your immunity so that the nystatin (or other antifungal) will be that much more effective.

Bob



Reactions to food (testing)

Posted by Johnelle on March 12, 1999 at 20:51:59:

In Reply to: Re: Pepto bismol thing posted by Robert McFerran on March 12, 1999 at 19:11:42:

Bob, I'm wondering, will a person's allergic reactions to
foods tend to be similar to whatever physical problems you
have been experiencing just prior to testing, i.e., like FMS
or arthritis or CFS? My reactions tend to be like intense
FMS flares, but with very short duration. Fibromyalgia has
really been my only obvious outward, diagnosed problem,
though I've since learned I have LGS and reactive
hypoglycemia, also probably candidiasis.

Just before being diagnosed with FMS I had lots of bloating
and a terrible, unfamiliar deep aching around the beltline,
a band about 8" wide, so very uncomfortable, but not a sharp
pain. It always came about 45 minutes after meals, and the
worst episodse was after having a huge Mexican food meal
with lots of greasy chips. I thought all the fat had gotten
me, but now I realize it was probably the wheat/corn in the
chips. The first tested food that brought a reaction was
green beans, and I had that same terrible band of
discomfort.

Do others of you who have tested foods and had reactions
notice similar patterns? Sara, you had the headache after
the decaf coffee -- had you had headaches like that when you
were at your worst? And what about you snow pea people?

Just wondering, once again! :o)
Johnelle...



Reactions to food (testing)

Posted by Johnelle on March 12, 1999 at 20:52:31:

In Reply to: Re: Pepto bismol thing posted by Robert McFerran on March 12, 1999 at 19:11:42:

Bob, I'm wondering, will a person's allergic reactions to
foods tend to be similar to whatever physical problems you
have been experiencing just prior to testing, i.e., like FMS
or arthritis or CFS? My reactions tend to be like intense
FMS flares, but with very short duration. Fibromyalgia has
really been my only obvious outward, diagnosed problem,
though I've since learned I have LGS and reactive
hypoglycemia, also probably candidiasis.

Just before being diagnosed with FMS I had lots of bloating
and a terrible, unfamiliar deep aching around the beltline,
a band about 8" wide, so very uncomfortable, but not a sharp
pain. It always came about 45 minutes after meals, and the
worst episodse was after having a huge Mexican food meal
with lots of greasy chips. I thought all the fat had gotten
me, but now I realize it was probably the wheat/corn in the
chips. The first tested food that brought a reaction was
green beans, and I had that same terrible band of
discomfort.

Do others of you who have tested foods and had reactions
notice similar patterns? Sara, you had the headache after
the decaf coffee -- had you had headaches like that when you
were at your worst? And what about you snow pea people?

Just wondering, once again! :o)
Johnelle...



Re: Reactions to food (testing)

Posted by
Robert McFerran on March 12, 1999 at 23:17:12:

In Reply to: Reactions to food (testing) posted by Johnelle on March 12, 1999 at 20:51:59:

Johnelle,

Yes, most hyper-acute reaction mimic what was ailing you before. They tend however to be more intense and short lived.

Bob



Re: Bob & Walt - more diet experiences (potassium & leg cramps)

Posted by
Sara on March 13, 1999 at 08:13:06:

In Reply to: Re: Bob & Walt - more diet experiences posted by Robert McFerran on March 12, 1999 at 11:05:14:

Bob,

Well, I forgot all about the summer squash for dinner last night, and didn't remember until I was going to bed. However, I had tested pinto beans at 3:30, broccoli at 7:30, and had eaten 1/2 an avocado around 9:00. I looked it up, and all are listed as sources of potassium, especially the avocado (didn't realize it's a better source than bananas). The other half of the avocado had been tested for breakfast yesterday, so I would say I got a pretty good amound of potassium in me for the day.

However, I still had a leg cramp in the middle of the night. It wasn't quite as intense as the other ones I've been having, but don't know if it was because of the potassium or not?

Sara



Re: Bob & Walt - more diet experiences (Testimonial)

Posted by Walt Stoll on March 13, 1999 at 10:55:04:

In Reply to: Bob & Walt - more diet experiences posted by Sara on March 12, 1999 at 09:34:08:

Dear Sara,

In the long run, your SR is going to resolve the cramps.

Remember, your bodymind is going through some radical changes with your e/diet changes. If you did nothing but persist, your cramps would be self-limited anyhow. You are just beginning to experience the benefits of the dietary changes. CONGRATULATIONS!

This is NOT a good time to suspend the magnesium injections, though.

A good stretching program for your legs would go a long way toward temporary relief as would the massage series I have suggested so many times.

Let us know how you do.

Here is something for you to think about. When I was first beginning to learn to do the SR thing, I went through a period of these same kinds of cramps. At the time I was going to every conference I could about the effects of SR and the ramifications of same.

Someone, I think it was Norman Shealy, MD, PhD (the Founding president of the American Holistic medical Association and the originator of the concept of "Pain & Stress Treatment Centers"), taught us that it was mainly the fear of the cramp that caused it to persist and become unbearable.

Anticipation of the cramp was the most common cause of them coming and the fear of what they were like greatly contributed to their progression. If one could just "give in" to the cramp it would disappear immediately. I learned to do that & could ALWAYS make them disappear within a few seconds.

That seemed miraculous to me at the time but I have never failed to have this work since then. Masseurs and Rolfers always teach those they work on about this since, when their pressure causes pain, it is the resistance of the person being manipulated that causes the pain. If they can just "give in" to it, the discomfort immediately disappears.

Think about it.

Walt



Re: Same problem with cramps (see testimonial about diet changes for Sara)

Posted by Walt Stoll on March 13, 1999 at 11:00:34:

In Reply to: Same problem with cramps posted by Johnelle on March 12, 1999 at 10:18:16:

Dear Johnelle, Mike & Kathy.

I should have titled my response to Sara more about the cramps since my response was more about the cramps than anything else. Wish I knew more about how to change titles.

Walt



Re: Bob & Walt - more diet experiences (potassium & leg cramps)

Posted by
Robert McFerran on March 13, 1999 at 12:01:10:

In Reply to: Re: Bob & Walt - more diet experiences (potassium & leg cramps) posted by Sara on March 13, 1999 at 08:13:06:

Sara,

Thanks for giving the potassium rich foods a test.

As I mentioned before I really can't put my finger on what causes this phenomenon and a consistently effective solution.

I still tend to think that most leg cramps are driven by the build-up of lactic acid in muscle more than anything else. Of course bracing contributes to this build-up but more often I've found it's simply due to an increase in exercise after being relatively sedentary. The problem becomes of how efficiently your body clears the lactic acid.

World class atheletes have found that regular massage after training helps them clear lactic acid build-ups and prevent cramping. This allows them to train with increasing intensity the next session. As the body experiences more lactic acid build-up it 'learns' how to become more effective in clearing it -- but this takes some time. Some atheletes even supplement with lactic acid to 'teach' their body to clear lactic acid faster in hopes that they can stop supplementing as they approach competition and protect themselves from cramping.

I'm not suggesting supplementing but lets have you try taking a warm bath in the evening. While in the bath massage your feet and ankles and work your way up your calf to the knees. That should be a fairly effective way to
help clear lactic acid.

Who knows, it might even work?

Bob



Thanks Bob (leg cramps)

Posted by
Sara on March 13, 1999 at 12:22:47:

In Reply to: Re: Bob & Walt - more diet experiences (potassium & leg cramps) posted by Robert McFerran on March 13, 1999 at 12:01:10:

Bob,

Thanks for the suggestion. I usually do take a warm to hot bath in the evening, but I will add the massage tonight and see if that helps.

It just seemed strange that I started having the leg cramps after not having them in years. And in those years my activity level varied greatly, so I don't really think they have been brought on due to increased activity. It has to be something with the diet. However, this diet being so new to my body, I understand it's a big change, and different things are bound to happen as my body adjusts. So, maybe a little patience (and a few massages in the meantime) and we'll see how things turn out. I do plan to make sure I am eating some potassium-rich foods everyday though, and see if that helps also.

Sara



Re: Bob & Walt - more diet experiences (Testimonial)

Posted by
Sara on March 13, 1999 at 12:39:41:

In Reply to: Re: Bob & Walt - more diet experiences (Testimonial) posted by Walt Stoll on March 13, 1999 at 10:55:04:

Walt,

Thanks for getting me centered again. I do have to keep reminding myself that my body is going through big changes right now with the diet, and I have to be patient. I will do the stretching, as well as the warm baths and leg massage (as Bob suggested).

I don't think I was really anticipating the leg cramps though, because they were waking me up from a deep sleep. However, I will keep your suggestions in mind.

I knew I shouldn't have suspended the mag. injections, but I guess I was afraid that it might affect the results of the e-diet and subsequent food testing. I have been on these mag. injections for months now, but my doctor wants me to continue them, because he thinks I'm one of those people that needs them on a long-term, regular basis.

Thanks for your help,
Sara



Re: Bob & Walt - more diet experiences (Testimonial)

Posted by
Robert McFerran on March 13, 1999 at 12:45:16:

In Reply to: Re: Bob & Walt - more diet experiences (Testimonial) posted by Sara on March 13, 1999 at 12:39:41:

Sara,

I don't think you need the magnesium injections.

Just another two cents.........

Bob



Re: Bob (magnesium injections)

Posted by
Sara on March 13, 1999 at 13:03:59:

In Reply to: Re: Bob & Walt - more diet experiences (Testimonial) posted by Robert McFerran on March 13, 1999 at 12:45:16:

Bob,

I KNOW you don't think I need the mag. injections. That's was one of the big reasons why I suspended them during the e-diet and food testing. But I'm between a rock & a hard place - my doctor (and Walt too) think I should continue them; you don't think I need them. Who should I listen to? If I remember right, this is one of those subjects that you and Walt have agreed to disagree on. So what should I do? Well, after gathering all opinions, I guess I have to decide for myself, and I think I'll have to use my body as a laboratory for this one.

BTW, the reason I was put on the mag. injections in the first place was because of a bad case of body bracing, but I also noticed other benefits from them. I was calmer, and generally felt much better emotionally. I have quite a background when it comes to both, so the results were amazing. This along with the SR seemed to bring about some miraculous changes in me, that didn't go unnoticed by my doctor or family.

I would like to know from you what would be the affect of too much magnesium on a H-G, just so that I have even more information about this, and can therefore make a well-informed decision. And would it matter whether that person has arthritis or not (I don't)?

As always, thanks for your help Bob :-)

Sara



Re: Bob (magnesium injections)

Posted by
Robert McFerran on March 13, 1999 at 19:09:50:

In Reply to: Re: Bob (magnesium injections) posted by Sara on March 13, 1999 at 13:03:59:

Sara,

I think that the magnesium injections would be appropriate for Agriculturists.

I have some personal experience with these things. Obviously I was taking them before I knew what I know now about the various metabolic (and anthropological) subsets. The were exquiste at immediately giving a sense of relaxation but it was always short lived. I found myself coming back from the docs office $65 poorer and VERY tired after each injection.

Healing crisis? I thought so at first but now I realize that there was more than magnesium in those injections. There is also a good dose of B-vitamins -- especially B-6. When I look at the formulation used by the 2 docs that I was getting the injections now I realize that the folks that were getting more benefit were Agriculturists. It undoubtably assisted in moving their blood plasma pH toward their optimals. When I questioned some of the folks that were getting their infusions in the waiting room some would talk about all the energy they got from the injections while others would say they would come home afterward and fall asleep. Are you seeing the dichotomy here?

If you look at the results of chelation therapies you get a similar dichotomy. Some folks are ready to go play tennis after an infusion while others just want to find a bed. Chelation formulas also have vitamins added and they are skewed heavily to the Agriculturist side. This for the most part works as it should since the great majority of folks with coronary or vascular problems are extreme Agriculturists. You, being a Hunter-gatherer would be looking for a bed.

All in all I probably spent about $800 on the magnesium injections. I realize now that they were hurting me rather than helping. I do feel for you trying to make a decision. Remember, most research is done on men (85% of which are Agriculturists). Something that has been PROVEN effective and helpful with them will at best do nothing for you. At worst it can delay your normalization and attaining what Dr. Wiley called BioBalance.

Bob



Re: Bob (magnesium injections) - between a rock and a hard place

Posted by
Sara on March 13, 1999 at 21:02:29:

In Reply to: Re: Bob (magnesium injections) posted by Robert McFerran on March 13, 1999 at 19:09:50:

Bob,

The magnesium injections always made me feel better; less muscle tension and more calm mentally. Mine is nothing but magnesium sulfate (no B vitamins). I know this, because I give myself the injections.

I don't know if I will need them or not after getting established on the H-G diet, but I do know that I feel like I'm being pulled in two different directions on this subject. Regardless of who the research has been done on, I still have to use my own body-lab to find out if it's right for ME, regardless of what ANYONE says. Would you not agree?

What I don't understand is why you paid so much money for the injections? I had my doctor write me a prescription for the mag. sulfate, lidocaine (because without that, they are really painful, I'm told), and the syringes, and it costs me about 44 cents per injection (not counting the cost of the alcohol wipe and bandaid). He even wrote me a prescription for B-12 injections, because everytime I came in to his office, he gave me a B-12 shot, and then on the next visit he wanted to know if it had made me feel any better, and for how long. He eventually concluded that I was one that seemed to benefit from regular B-12 injections, and so he wrote the script for me so that I could self-administer them and save money.

Sara



Re: Bob (magnesium injections) - between a rock and a hard place

Posted by
Robert McFerran on March 13, 1999 at 23:22:52:

In Reply to: Re: Bob (magnesium injections) - between a rock and a hard place posted by Sara on March 13, 1999 at 21:02:29:

Sara,

I would have to say that my experience is the norm and yours is rare in this circumstance. Of course my docs told me that the other B-vitamins were important co-factors to help metabolize the magnesium.

Funny, they would have been right IF I were an Agriculturist.

Hold on to that doc. An M.D. that is willing to work with you on your health is a rare find in the 20th century.

I agree that your body/mind will tell you what is best HOWEVER if you don't give your body/mind sufficient time to normalize on it's own (without the injections) then it never will.

Bob



Re: Bob & Walt - more diet experiences (potassium & leg cramps)

Posted by Deanna on March 13, 1999 at 23:35:36:

In Reply to: Re: Bob & Walt - more diet experiences (potassium & leg cramps) posted by Robert McFerran on March 13, 1999 at 12:01:10:

Of course bracing contributes to this build-up but more often I've found it's simply due to an increase in exercise after being relatively sedentary
I read this in one of the posts. Are you saying that using the legs more often after not using them for a length of time? I to have mild cramping in my legs. I didnt do much exercise for about a year, then I started to exercise and walk more and out of the blue lower leg pain. What is bracing please? Thank You



Re: Bob & Walt - more diet experiences (potassium & leg cramps)

Posted by
Robert McFerran on March 14, 1999 at 00:22:20:

In Reply to: Re: Bob & Walt - more diet experiences (potassium & leg cramps) posted by Deanna on March 13, 1999 at 23:35:36:

Deanna,

If you relax your shoulders right now will they drop a bit? Why are they higher to begin with? What purpose does it serve to have your shoulder muscles holding your shoulders closer to your ears?

This is bracing. We do it habitually and it takes a toll on our physiology. Many folks will have this chronic tension in other parts of their body -- including their legs.

Bob



Re: Bob (magnesium injections)

Posted by Walt Stoll on March 14, 1999 at 10:29:21:

In Reply to: Re: Bob (magnesium injections) posted by Sara on March 13, 1999 at 13:03:59:

Dear Sara,

I agree with Bob that you do not NEED the magnesium injections (At least not over an extended period of time as your doc seems to think.). What I DO think is that right now is not the time to change other things you are doing and the injections are one of those things.

You should be to the point where you can absorb magnesium orally.

Walt



Re: Bob & Walt - more diet experiences (potassium & leg cramps)

Posted by Walt Stoll on March 14, 1999 at 11:10:32:

In Reply to: Re: Bob & Walt - more diet experiences (potassium & leg cramps) posted by Deanna on March 13, 1999 at 23:35:36:

Hi, Deanna.

What comes to your mind's eye when you hear the term bracing? Please see the other notes I posted today about how to learn about this almost universal condition in this culture.

Walt



Re: Bob & Walt - magnesium supplementation & B vitamins

Posted by
Sara on March 14, 1999 at 14:07:57:

In Reply to: Re: Bob (magnesium injections) posted by Walt Stoll on March 14, 1999 at 10:29:21:

Bob & Walt,

I would also agree that I probably don't need to continue the magnesium injections indefinately, and can probably absorb the magnesium orally now. However, it is believed (by my doctor) that I do need more magnesium than I'm getting from my diet, so therefore some form of supplementation is called for. However, the H-G diet supplement list doesn't even list magnesium. Bob, is this because the H-G diet already supplies enough, or is it because you have found that most H-G's just don't seem to need it?

I'm really confused. It is hard to know what to do when you and Walt disagree on these things.

Also, you only list B-12, naicinamide, and pantothenic acid as supplements for H-G's, but I thought that there had to be a balance of the B vitamins in order for any of them to work properly?

Sara



Re: Bob & Walt - magnesium supplementation & B vitamins

Posted by
Robert McFerran on March 14, 1999 at 15:09:09:

In Reply to: Re: Bob & Walt - magnesium supplementation & B vitamins posted by Sara on March 14, 1999 at 14:07:57:

Sara,

I'm glad that you've asking these questions since other folks can learn from them.

First of all we ALL need magnesium -- HOWEVER there are groups of folks that need more and there are groups of folks that need less for their OPTIMAL metabolic function.

Why?

It's a simple matter of adaptation.

If you 'buy-in' to the concept that some folks are genetically linked to ancestors that were primarily meat eaters while others (in other geographies) were primarily vegetarian you MUST also buy-in to the fact that their vitamin/mineral needs were ALSO radically different -- and in fact somewhat mutually exclusive.

Your physician sees everyone as metabolically the same. He might see some variation -- but to him it is minor.

The difference ARE NOT minor. If a type II diabetic male were to eat the diet that you are eating right now you would have two very different outcomes. Your H-G metabolism would thrive while the extreme Agriculturist of the man would induce chronic disease -- probably cardiovascular in nature.

Now tell me how someone came up with a 'balanced' vitamin B formula? How did they come up with the amounts of each B vitamin? Who did they use as 'test subjects'? What type of metabolism do you think they had?

The concept that anyone can slam down mega-doses of vitamins and then pee out anything that their metabolism doesn't need is as outdated as it is absurd.

If you look at the vitamin recommendations for Agriculturists and H-G's they are somewhat mutually exclusive. Dr. Wiley suggested the various supplement profiles as a way to 'fill in the gaps' above and beyond what the diet of each metabolic subset could provide. In other words you don't (shouldn't) supplement heavily with magnesium since your H-G metabolism will get sufficient amounts from your diet. At the same time some extra calcium and phosphorous supplementation might be needed to augment your diet.

Conversely Wiley was suggesting that if you were an Agriculturist that you would NOT need extra calcium/phosphorous in your diet but it might be a good idea to add more magnesium since it might be difficult to get enough through the Agriculturist diet alone.

Finally, I don't think Dr. Stoll and I are disagreeing on any of these points.

Do you buy-in to the concept of radically different metabolic needs driven by heredity and anthropolgy? If so you MUST abandon the paradigm of 'one size fits all' for food as well as vitamin/mineral supplementation.

Bob



Re: Bob & Walt - magnesium supplementation & B vitamins, and phosphor

Posted by
Sara on March 14, 1999 at 19:26:53:

In Reply to: Re: Bob & Walt - magnesium supplementation & B vitamins posted by Robert McFerran on March 14, 1999 at 15:09:09:

Bob,

Thank you for your indepth reply. I don't know whether I'll need magnesium supplements once I've adapted to the H-G diet or not, all I was trying to say is that I did seem to benefit greatly from the injections, and they were prescribed by my doctor. If using them could have compromised the results of food testing, what do you recommend to others that are taking other prescriptions (say like antidepressants, tranquilizers, potassium) that could ultimately have an effect on the test results?

What you and Walt disagreed on (and what created confusion for me) was the following:

Walt, 3/13 - "This is NOT a good time to suspend the magnesium injections...

Bob, 3/13 - "I agree that your body/mind will tell you what is best HOWEVER if you don't give your body/mind sufficient time to normalize on it's own (without the injections) then it never will."

Bob, 3/13 - "I don't think you need the magnesium injections."

Walt, 3/14 - "I agree with Bob that you do not NEED the magnesium injections (At least not over an extended period of time as your doc seems to think.). What I DO think is that right now is not the time to change other things you are doing and the injections are one of those things."

Also, concerning B vitamins, Walt just responded earlier today to someone's question about taking increased doses of pantothenic acid, and his response was:

"It is hard to take too much of any B vitamin IF it is taken in a balanced dosage with all the rest (They all work together.)."

And finally, I have a question concerning phosphorous (since it is a recommended supplement for H'G's, but magnesium isn't). I thought that was something we wanted to stay away from. Walt's book talks about "stable criminal syndrome" and what too much phosphorous can do to horses, which can be corrected by ensuring that the animal doesn't become deficient in magnesium. If some animals are more susceptable to it than others, could some humans be more susceptable to problems resulting from an imbalance in that area? Now, for a human that shows a past history of magnesium deficiency, and was therefore prescribed mag. injections, is it wise to give them phosphorous and NO magnesium?

Maybe my mind is going WAY off in an unnecessary direction, but I would appreciate any thoughts from you and Walt on these things.

Thanks,
Sara



That should be 'phosphorous' (nmi)

Posted by Sara on March 14, 1999 at 19:30:06:

In Reply to: Re: Bob & Walt - magnesium supplementation & B vitamins, and phosphor posted by Sara on March 14, 1999 at 19:26:53:

.



Re: Bob & Walt - magnesium supplementation & B vitamins, and phosphor

Posted by
Robert McFerran on March 14, 1999 at 21:31:53:

In Reply to: Re: Bob & Walt - magnesium supplementation & B vitamins, and phosphor posted by Sara on March 14, 1999 at 19:26:53:

Sara,

Thanks for illuminating where Walt and I differ. I look forward to his comments.

You didn't answer my questions from the previous post. They were not meant to be rhetorical. Would you help me by addressing each one? Here they are again:

Now tell me how someone came up with a 'balanced' vitamin B formula? How did they come up with the amounts of each B vitamin? Who did they use as 'test subjects'? What type of metabolism do you think they had?

What type of metabolism (and diet) do you think horses eat? Is it Agriculturist or H-G?

We don't eat bone or bone marrow like some of our recent ancestors living only 500 years ago. What are the major two components found in bone marrow? (Hint -- look at the label of calcium hydroxyapetite since it is derived directly from the bone marrow of lambs).

Folks that eat a diet mismatched to inherited metabolism have all sorts of deficiencies. They resolve naturally as your body normalizes on the right diet. Just because something makes you feel immediately better (i.e. - a magnesium injection) doesn't mean that you NEED to take it. A shot of cortisone (a natural hormone) would make you and I feel great for a while too -- but that is not necesarily indicative that you and I have a cortisone deficiency.

Do you buy-in to the concept of radically different metabolic needs driven by heredity and anthropolgy? Can you see that you MUST abandon the paradigm of 'one size fits all' for foods as well as vitamin/mineral supplementation if you believe this?

There is one book that is so powerful with it's unique perspective and striking before and after photography that will pull all this together for you. It is Dr. Weston Prices' NUTRITION AND PHYSICAL DEGENERATION.

Bob




Re: Bob & Walt - just trying to get a better understanding

Posted by
Sara on March 15, 1999 at 09:33:09:

In Reply to: Re: Bob & Walt - magnesium supplementation & B vitamins, and phosphor posted by Robert McFerran on March 14, 1999 at 21:31:53:

Bob,

I give up - you win.

You know I canít answer your questions. I am however confused when you recommend one thing and Walt recommends another (and I wonít even bring my own doctorís recommendations into this). I am not a doctor, nor am I an expert on diet. I am however, an expert on how my body reacts to various things done to it or put in to it.

I wasnít meaning to challenge you - Iím just trying to understand things better so that I can make myself as healthy as possible. Why do you think Iím a regular on this BB, have read Waltís book (more than once), also read about a half a dozen other books heís recommended, do my SR, exercise, and why do you think Iím on your diet?

Sara



Re: Bob & Walt - magnesium supplementation & B vitamins

Posted by Walt Stoll on March 15, 1999 at 10:52:11:

In Reply to: Re: Bob & Walt - magnesium supplementation & B vitamins posted by Robert McFerran on March 14, 1999 at 15:09:09:

Hi, Bob.

I agree with your statement that you don't think that we are disagreeing on this at all. I think we are trying to make a point with as little pertinent information as possible (in the interest of space & time) and that is confusing to those who have not yet taken the days, weeks & years (even lifetimes) to study this.

A key thing here is that WE ARE ALL SO VERY DIFFERENT and why is that? One would have to be a student of the "Human Genome Project" to begin to understand this. The answer to this is incredibly complex & becoming more complex with each new discovery.

This is one reason I urge people to get healthy enough that they can "listen to their bodyminds" and use them as their own personal laboratories to determine their own answers. Unhealthy bodies are pretty numb and don't do as well with this.

We ALL are just beginning to scratch the surface of what this is about. Twenty years ago, none of us had a clue and ALL information had to be determined in the individual case by trial & error. At least now we have SOME idea about some directions to point some people at first.

I think that (probably) the balanced B complex formula was determined by studies on white, senior, college males by seeing what doses, of each, seemed to work with each other at which doses. However, that may be right for white, senior, college males (even if the research was done correctly---unlikely with what we know now). What does it say about all the rest of us????????? (grin)

STILL, until the research is done right on all the other segments of the society, it is the best yardstick we have.

By the way, I am still of the school that "one can slam-dunk megadoses of B vitamins and the body will pee out what it doesn't need". Much of the function of many of the water soluble vitamins happens when the "washing effect", as they wash out through the cells, occurs. Enlighten me.

Walt




Re: Bob & Walt - magnesium supplementation & B vitamins, and phosphor

Posted by Walt Stoll on March 15, 1999 at 11:04:07:

In Reply to: Re: Bob & Walt - magnesium supplementation & B vitamins, and phosphor posted by Robert McFerran on March 14, 1999 at 21:31:53:

Here we are again, Bob.

These discussions are very helpful to me.

Just wanted to let you know that the research HAS been done with the "stable criminal" syndrome in humans. They respond the same way to the low magnesium/high phosphorus condition as horses do---especially in children up to the age of 20. It seems that more adult people respond by depression & anxiety--perhaps we adult humans have more intellectual control over the impulsive behavior children & horses exhibit?

All this means to me is that the agriculturist/hunter-gatherer concept is just a part of the puzzle. This is something that I know you already know.

Namaste` Walt



Re: Bob & Walt - just trying to get a better understanding

Posted by Walt Stoll on March 15, 1999 at 11:09:53:

In Reply to: Re: Bob & Walt - just trying to get a better understanding posted by Sara on March 15, 1999 at 09:33:09:

Hi, Sara.

CONGRATULATIONS on persisting. You are getting a taste of how difficult this really is. When Bob & I give ideas to people we are, at best, just skimming the surface of what is known. I hope you will read some of the other notes we have exchanged yesterday & today.

The more you know, the easier it will be for you to combine your already appreciated sensitivity to your "bodymind laboratory" with knowledge to get better results for YOU and the more sense all this will make to you.

Operating at the cutting edge of knowledge is STILL a lot better than wallowing in ignorance don't you think (grin)?

Walt



Walt - I HAVE read ALL notes exchanged (nmi)

Posted by
Sara on March 15, 1999 at 11:46:46:

In Reply to: Re: Bob & Walt - just trying to get a better understanding posted by Walt Stoll on March 15, 1999 at 11:09:53:

.



Re: Bob & Walt - just trying to get a better understanding

Posted by
Robert McFerran on March 15, 1999 at 13:09:29:

In Reply to: Re: Bob & Walt - just trying to get a better understanding posted by Sara on March 15, 1999 at 09:33:09:

Hi Sara,

Gosh, I don't want to 'win' -- I want YOU to win. I want the other folks here on the board to win too. That is why I was asking you those questions. I KNOW that you can answer each and every one of them and those answers will lead you to the answer to your question about magnesium injections (as well as giving you direction for future answers). I hope that other folks reading this will try and answer the questions that I put to you too and realise that there is a LOGIC to the answers.

You know more than your doctor about diet and supplementation now. You can't rely on some authority figure (that knows less than you) to tell you what to do.

I wish that you would challenge me if something that I suggest doesn't make sense. Of course I'd appreciate some of the logic behind what you see too. The fact that your body/mind seems to react well to something is pretty darn good logic for starters.

I thought that you were doing the H-G diet because you DID buy into the idea of various metabolic and dietary needs based on our recent (last 100,000 years) anthropological past.

It's better if I give you a framework to understand how all this stuff dovetails so that you can come up with your own answers. Your good questions show that you DO know enough to answer many of your own questions. You'll find that your answers will often fly in the face of what other 'experts' suggest. As far as 'experts' go here are the first two paragraphs of my book.

I am constantly humbled by the fact that there is so much that we do not know. Physicists, who thought that they had a pretty good handle on the size of the universe, recently found that they were only off by a factor of ten. With this discovery of a much larger universe there has been a flurry of activity -- and with it a renaissance of thought as scientists scurry to re-think old theories and formulate new ones about our world.

It might be easy to deride them but these physicists should be applauded. They are brave indeed to offer up theories that are built upon so many abstract mathematical formulas and so little in the way of direct observation. They live with the fact that their ideas will only have a limited lifetime, some embarrassingly short. Nonetheless they stake out their position and go about proving it in the face of the usual opposition from their peers. This is the way they move our knowledge forward.


Bob



Re: Bob & Walt - magnesium supplementation & B vitamins

Posted by
Robert McFerran on March 15, 1999 at 14:54:36:

In Reply to: Re: Bob & Walt - magnesium supplementation & B vitamins posted by Walt Stoll on March 15, 1999 at 10:52:11:

Hi Walt,

Until I read Dr. George Watson's NUTRITION AND PSYCHOLOGICAL STRENGTH and then BIOBALANCE by Dr. Rudolph Wiley I held the same opinion as yours.

Both of these researchers showed without doubt that vitamins were VERY powerful in shifting blood plasma pH and at the same time dramatically inducing or relieving symptoms in their psychiatric patients.

When I first looked at Watson's work I was dubious -- but the more I investigated the more I saw that what he found dovetailed very nicely with the anthropology. At the time he discovered his three metabolic subsets the current techniques for anthropological bone analysis were unavailable. Today we can determine much of what our recent ancestors ate. In other words we know that some groups have diets that naturally included large amounts of calcium/phosphorous -- and they were Hunter-gatherers. At the same time bone analysis reveals that other groups ate diets rich in magnesium/potassium (which were at the same time much lower levels of calcium/phosphorous) -- and they were what I term as Agriculturists.

I realized that IF there were dramatically different dietary needs for folks living under dramatically different climactic conditions that effect our ADAPTATION today that the same must be true for vitamins/minerals. In other words while we all have a baseline need for the same vitamins/minerals -- supplementing beyond that baseline could make us MALADAPTED or better adapted -- it could (as Watson and Wiley observed) reduce or induce symptoms.

In other words our needs for vitamins/minerals must vary according to our adaptation. Even though vitamins were water-soluble, large doses of the wrong B-vitamins could effectively derail optimal metabolic effectiveness. Watson and Wiley quantified this by measuring the profound effect of various B-vitamin levels on blood plasma pH.

I know that Philpott observed that mega-doses of certain B-vitamins would help ameliorate symptoms in most of his psychiatric patients. He concluded that they had a much greater genetic need. Watson and Wiley would suggest that these vitamin B-vitamin mega-doses were effective since blood plasma pH in these patients was skewed far outside of optimal levels (prior to taking the vitamins).

Unfortunately the catalytic efficiency of vitamins are dictated by pH. At an optimal pH one needs minimal supplementation. At a sub-optimal pH one needs a megadose (perhaps 1000X or more) to get the same catalytic effect.

While Philpott found that he could ameliorate symptoms of his psychiatric patients with mega-doses of vitamins, Watson and Wiley found they could do the SAME thing with no supplementation, instead with diet to adjust blood plasma pH to optimal levels (approximately 7.46). If Philpott was testing blood plasma pH levels he would have discovered that ALL of his psychiatric patients had levels well outside (higher or lower) than 7.46. He would have found that whenever mega-doses of vitamins/minerals were successful in reducing symptoms that the effect of the large dose of vitamins would take them back closer to the optimal level of 7.46.

It's important to look at what Philpott found and the context of when he found it. He was studying psychiatric patients when the All-American diet consisted of eggs, sausage and ham for breakfast; chicken for lunch and steak for dinner. My, how that has changed! I'm convinced that the great majority of his patients were those that had inherited an EXTREME Agriculturist metabolism. They would have done quite well if they were just shifted to today's Ornish or MacDougal Plan alone. Instead Philpott didn't alter their basic diet (other than discovering and removing food allergens). He would instead find that large doses of something like B-6 would reduce their symptoms. Of course Watson already knew that B-6 had a powerful effect in ASSISTING the blood plasma pH of Agriculturists back toward optimals (7.46).

Hindsight is great. Philpott's discoveries influenced an entire generation of forward thinking physicians. This was over 25 years ago when the majority of folks suffering chronic disease were Agriculturists who were not eating a 'light' diet. The success of that generation of forward thinking physicians was further re-inforced by using supplementation (based on Philpott's discoveries) and later the prescription of vegetarian diets. These things almost always got results.

Unfortunately the landscape has changed dramatically over the last 25 years. The All-American diet is no longer meat 2-3 times a day -- in fact there may be no meat at all. Most of the folks with chronic problems today are Hunter-gatherers, Mixed or EXTREME Agriculturists. Philpott's suggestions will only work for the EXTREME Agriculturists.

Supplementation (even water-soluble B-vitamins) DOES have an effect on metabolic 'speed'. That metabolic 'speed' induces changes in blood plasma pH that are global. Those changes effect catalytic activity throughout the body. We can't begin to yet comprehend the specific impact of over-supplementation but Dr. Seyle would probably observe that sometimes it has effects that seem to make the animal maladapted.

Bob



Re: Bob & Walt - magnesium supplementation & B vitamins, and phosphor

Posted by
Robert McFerran on March 15, 1999 at 15:09:04:

In Reply to: Re: Bob & Walt - magnesium supplementation & B vitamins, and phosphor posted by Walt Stoll on March 15, 1999 at 11:04:07:

Hi Walt,

Once I realized the existence of different metabolic subsets I also realized that ALL research done to date would have to be re-examined. At best the conclusions would not be as simple as the researchers doing the testing though.

Since most research is based on males and 85% of all males in America are Agriculturists I would not be surprised at all that "stable criminal" syndrome would respond the same way to high levels of phosphorous and low levels of magnesium.

Even more interesting is how the metbolic subsets explain why researchers using the same test method get completely different results from country to country.

Bob



Re: Bob & Walt - magnesium supplementation & B vitamins

Posted by
Kathy McEvoy on March 15, 1999 at 16:51:39:

In Reply to: Re: Bob & Walt - magnesium supplementation & B vitamins posted by Robert McFerran on March 15, 1999 at 14:54:36:

Hi Bob,

I think I am grasping the concept of metabolic subsets and your thinking on supplementation, but I do have a question.
What about people who can't get to normal? Using myself as an example-- I have had a myelogram (the dye will never go away). I also have mercury amalgams in my teeth. If I can't get back to a normal state, how can I work within your concepts. I found the supplements I currently use through trial and error to make myself at least somewhat functional. Without magnesium on a daily basis, I sometimes cannot walk.(and other symtoms from the myelogram come back - too numerous to get into)

This is why I am so afraid to try the e-diet. Believe me, I have been through many protocols that promised to make me well and nothing has done that! I can get somewhat better but it seems that total wellness is not in the cards for me.

I ask this question, not for sympathy, but to clarify this concern for those of us who are afraid of doing further damage to ourselves.

Thank you for all the time you spend answering these infernal (and I'm sure for you frustrating) questions! If this sounds as if I'm questioning your expertise, I am not but I believe that this is a legitimate concern.

Kathy



Re: Bob & Walt - magnesium supplementation & B vitamins

Posted by
Robert McFerran on March 15, 1999 at 21:19:14:

In Reply to: Re: Bob & Walt - magnesium supplementation & B vitamins posted by Kathy McEvoy on March 15, 1999 at 16:51:39:

Hi Kathy,

Ever since mankind started grasping laws of physics they have tried to have some sort of 'Unified Theory' that logically explains things like planets, suns and galaxies as well as the sub-atomic particles that make them up. This IS the ultimate goal of physics. The same laws that impact a sub-atomic quark should hold true for the celestial bodies we see in the evening sky.

I think that you see that I'm trying to tie the OBSERVATIONS of many folks from many different disciplines to create something that makes consistent sense -- and therefore could be used to yield a higher percentage of success in folks EXACTLY like yourself -- that have gotten very little in the way of results from all your efforts. There is a REASON why you haven't achieved more success and I'm not willing to blame it on your dental work or your myelogram. While these things MIGHT be a detriment I've found too many other things that represent stronger currents against which individuals are trying to swim.

I was in the same boat as you as I went from therapy to therapy while watching my joints erode. Pain was a constant companion. The way that I decided what therapy to try was NOT based on logic. Rather it would be based on the nature of the AUTHORITY of the folks pushing it. These folks were all sorts of alternative medicine providers -- herbalists, homeopaths, Naturopaths, M.D.'s, D.O.'s, Chiropractors, Hands-On Healing Masters, as well as the person behind the counter at the local health food store.

Like you I was exposed to a lot of information. So many times someone would tell me wild tales of how they knew someone that had severe arthritis, couldn't walk, was in constant pain, etc. that took 'X' or did 'Y' and miraculously they didn't have arthritis any more! When I would ask for them to put me in touch with that person I consistently found that either these people did not exist or the severity of their proplem was greatly overstated.

So where to go from here? It seemed that all the information that I was getting was DI-VERGING rather than CON-VERGING -- but that did not stop me from listening, experimenting and trying to understand what was really going on. I would see individuals that would show marked improvement when they took something like chromium and then I would try it and find it made me worse. I talked to other people (the internet has been truly invaluable for this) and found that others had my same negative experience.

Then one day for some reason I started looking at things differently -- or perhaps the way that I should have looked at them in the first place. I would dismiss the CONCLUSIONS reached by all of authors and experts -- instead I would focus on their OBSERVATIONS alone. Many authors are long on conclusions and short on describing their observations so I had to get an intimate understanding of the time-frame when the research was done. What was the prevailing thought at the time? What tools did the researchers have at their disposal and more importantly what tools did they NOT have? Who were their contemporaries in the field? What information do we have now that they didn't have then that would have allowed them to reach further with their understanding of what they observed?

When I did this the information that seemed to endlessly diverge started to do the opposite -- it started to come together. The recent posts in regard to the question of magnesium supplementation for the masses has nicked the tip of that iceburg.

I want you to know that I have a lot of amalgam in my teeth. When those fillings go bad I won't have them replaced but I also haven't had others removed for my fear of mercury (perhaps you are confusing some of what I've posted with what JN has posted recently). I also have two titanium shafts in my body for hip and shoulder replacement. While that foreign material is bad enough I also have a polyethylene plastic liner in my hip with grinds off a little bit of microscopic plastic with every step I take. That plastic goes out into the tissue and my body has to deal with it.

What I'm trying to say here is that just because you have some residual dye in your spine and some mercury fillings doesn't mean that you are a hopeless case. Do you think that due to these things that re-winning your health and your life is hopeless?

Finally, if you absolutely refuse to do the Elimination diet bases solely on the fact that you will not abandon your supplementation regimine, I'd suggest that you go ahead and run the E-diet while taking your supplements. It will add a degree of complexity to things but I'm sure that you will see the benefit.

Bob



Re: Bob & Walt - magnesium supplementation & B vitamins

Posted by
Kathy McEvoy on March 16, 1999 at 13:11:01:

In Reply to: Re: Bob & Walt - magnesium supplementation & B vitamins posted by Robert McFerran on March 15, 1999 at 21:19:14:

Hi Bob,

You hit the nail right on the head! Everything you said in your very caring, insightful post makes sense to me. How did you get to be so smart? ;o)

To answer your question: Yes, I was believing that re-winning my TOTAL health was hopeless. I think that you and Walt are the first people to suggest to me that wellness is a possibility in my case. Now I need to shift my perception to that thought. I am finding that as I ask the questions, the answers are being supplied. (Ask and you shall receive is no idle promise!)

I found your paragraphs on information converging very interesting. I have felt many times on overload due to so MUCH information and much of it seeming diametrically (sp?) opposed. I hope I can figure out at some point how you made that shift to get it all to come together.

Again I thank you for your time and caring - you help all of us so unselfishly.

Kathy

PS I hope your book is being published soon. I think it will help all of the future e-dieters. (And save you from so many questions)




Re: Bob & Walt - magnesium supplementation & B vitamins ("picture of the puzzle")

Posted by Walt Stoll on March 16, 1999 at 13:33:27:

In Reply to: Re: Bob & Walt - magnesium supplementation & B vitamins posted by Kathy McEvoy on March 16, 1999 at 13:11:01:

Thanks, Kathy (Bob et al).

I greatly appreciate all the help. What this is reminding me of is how much we ALL have yet to learn.

To me this just points up the importance of the e/diet since we all are wandering in the dark and there are finally little flecks of light to guide us on our way. STILL, our bodyminds are the best tool we have to find out which, if any, approach is right for us. The e/diet, done right, just is another way to knowledge. The important thing is that it is SELF-KNOWLEDGE and not just theory.

Accumulation of all the knowledge we can get our hands on will keep us far ahead of the pack when it comes to getting results. Fortunately, the more we learn, the easier it will get for us to see the "picture of the puzzle".

Namaste` to us all! Walt



Re: Bob & Walt - magnesium supplementation & B vitamins

Posted by
Robert McFerran on March 16, 1999 at 14:57:07:

In Reply to: Re: Bob & Walt - magnesium supplementation & B vitamins posted by Kathy McEvoy on March 16, 1999 at 13:11:01:

Kathy,

Reading NUTRITION AND PHYSICAL DEGENERATION by Dr. Weston Price was a turning point in trying to make sense of things.

You can order the book directly from the Price-Pottenger foundation at: http://www.price-pottenger.org/books.html

By the way, I don't accept all the conclusions reached by the Price-Pottenger foundation in regard to health.

Bob



Re: Bob & Walt - more diet experiences (potassium & leg cramps)

Posted by
dean on May 26, 1999 at 22:42:45:

In Reply to: Re: Bob & Walt - more diet experiences (potassium & leg cramps) posted by Deanna on March 13, 1999 at 23:35:36:

I have been having more leg cramps than normal... Of course I have been more active with my job also...... I have been eating a banana more often but still get very painful cramps especially in the morning when I streatch before I get out of bed......



Re: Bob & Walt - more diet experiences (potassium & leg cramps)

Posted by Walt Stoll on May 27, 1999 at 13:12:39:

In Reply to: Re: Bob & Walt - more diet experiences (potassium & leg cramps) posted by dean on May 26, 1999 at 22:42:45:

Hi, Dean.]

This is more likely due to magnesium than potassium.

Rolfing would solve this for you for a year or so. A series of massages like I have recommended so often would resolve this for at least months.

In the long run, only the regular practice of SR will permanently resolve it.

Walt



Leg cramps

Posted by
dennis on May 28, 1999 at 00:06:03:

In Reply to: Re: Bob & Walt - more diet experiences (potassium & leg cramps) posted by Walt Stoll on May 27, 1999 at 13:12:39:

I pulled a hamstring a couple of years ago and have been pleagued by cramping in that area everytime I do a running race. Up to the time of the event I have not really had problems. But, 6 months of non racing followed by another try leads to the same results. Ouch! Any Suggestions?



Re: Leg cramps

Posted by Walt Stoll on May 28, 1999 at 16:24:57:

In Reply to: Leg cramps posted by dennis on May 28, 1999 at 00:06:03:

Hi, Dennis.

The injury was just the "straw that broke the camel's back" it was NOT the cause.

Your suscpetibility factors, present BEFORE the injury are why it has never healed.

SO, my answer is the same as in my previous response.

Call; a Certified Rolfer (see glossary) and I will bet that you soon see progress that will be permanent. However, without the regular SR it will eventually come back anyhow.

Let us know how you do.

Walt



Re: Bob & Walt - more diet experiences (Testimonial)

Posted by
Trish Gonzalez on June 21, 1999 at 19:35:07:

In Reply to: Re: Bob & Walt - more diet experiences (Testimonial) posted by Robert McFerran on March 13, 1999 at 12:45:16:

Have you heard about a diet consisting of HCG injections?

I would like to have more information about it.

Thanks

Trish



Re: Bob & Walt - more diet experiences (Testimonial)

Posted by
Robert McFerran on June 21, 1999 at 21:11:44:

In Reply to: Re: Bob & Walt - more diet experiences (Testimonial) posted by Trish Gonzalez on June 21, 1999 at 19:35:07:

Hi Trish,

I've never heard of this one. Maybe you can explain what this 'diet' consists of.

Thanks,

Bob



Re: Bob & Walt - more diet experiences (potassium & leg cramps)

Posted by
Eric Skantze on August 14, 1999 at 14:13:27:

In Reply to: Re: Bob & Walt - more diet experiences (potassium & leg cramps) posted by Walt Stoll on May 27, 1999 at 13:12:39:

I have written some hypotheses on the etiology of leg cramps . Look at my home page. Magnesium helped me.



Re: Bob & Walt - more diet experiences (potassium & leg cramps) Testimonial---archive

Posted by Walt Stoll on August 16, 1999 at 12:29:52:

In Reply to: Re: Bob & Walt - more diet experiences (potassium & leg cramps) posted by Eric Skantze on August 14, 1999 at 14:13:27:

Thanks, Eric.

Your information will he; others!

Walt



Re: Bob (magnesium injections)

Posted by
Bruce on October 03, 1999 at 00:51:36:

In Reply to: Re: Bob (magnesium injections) posted by Robert McFerran on March 13, 1999 at 19:09:50:

I am glad to find your posting. What more can I find out about attaining the BioBalance of Dr. Wiley? Wily was for the 80's what Watson was for the 70's what Pfeiffe was for the 60's. Who do we have for the 90's and what works will we follow into the new Millennium?



Re: Bob (magnesium injections)

Posted by
Robert McFerran on October 03, 1999 at 14:57:35:

In Reply to: Re: Bob (magnesium injections) posted by Bruce on October 03, 1999 at 00:51:36:

Bruce,

You might want to check out the archive section of this site for more information.

I believe that ALL the folks that have made discoveries about 'theraputic' diets have basically been seeing (whether they realized it or not) that their diet would help a certain sub-group of people in becoming less MAL-ADAPTED to their diet.

The simple suggestion of an exclusive WHOLE FOODS DIET by Dr. Stoll is what I believe is the discovery for the 90's. Dr. Stoll know that whatever the person ate that they would be better adapted to foods in their 'whole' form (basically what our ancestors were eating since the dawn of mankind.

What about 2,000 and beyond?

I guess we'll have to wait and see.

Bob



Re: Bob & Walt - more diet experiences (potassium & leg cramps)

Posted by
Marilynn on October 06, 1999 at 21:08:15:

In Reply to: Re: Bob & Walt - more diet experiences (potassium & leg cramps) posted by Robert McFerran on March 14, 1999 at 00:22:20:

I have been having alot of cramp in my legs, hands, chest and neck. I eat banannas but I still have these cramps and sometimes (I have one almost each day)both my legs are attached at once. What can I take to releave these cramps. Someone told me there was a vitamin call cellimin(SP) but I have checked with GNC and have not found anything like this. Can you help me with this?
Marilynn



Re: Bob & Walt - more diet experiences (potassium & leg cramps)

Posted by Walt Stoll on October 07, 1999 at 12:28:59:

In Reply to: Re: Bob & Walt - more diet experiences (potassium & leg cramps) posted by Marilynn on October 06, 1999 at 21:08:15:

Hi, Marilynn.

This sounds like a multimineral supplement, not a vitamin.

Although leg cramps are frequently helped by a wide spectrum of minerals, by far the most common cause is "bracing" which would more quickly be resolved by massage, Rolfing, Feldenkrais, or Alexander Technique.

In the end, of course, nothing will be permanent without getting rid of the bracing (SR).

Walt



Re: That should be 'phosphorous' (nmi)

Posted by
Sara Soliman on October 25, 1999 at 21:21:04:

In Reply to: That should be 'phosphorous' (nmi) posted by Sara on March 14, 1999 at 19:30:06:

Sara-
(i love your name):] Well i was looking at this and it has really no information on the element phosphorus. Maybe i'm mistaken and it should be just something to post stuff. i don't know. please e-mail me and let me know.





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