Metabolic Type and ER4YT Diets archives

Another question for Bob ...re: purines

Posted by Louise on September 02, 1998 at 13:29:48:

Greetings, Bob!

Under your tuttledge I have come to realize how important the purine content of my diet affects my well-being. Having an extreme Hunter-Gatherer metabolism, I need quite a bit to function properly.

I plan to do the elimination diet and am wondering about the list of safe food. How much purine are in the those foods? (Linda Hynds sent me the actual diet -thank you Linda!)

Is it possible to add chicken livers or beef to the elimination diet?

I am afraid of a major hypoglycemic crash without some heavy duty source of purines. (I tend to pass out in reaction mode.)

I know mackerel (a dark meat) must have a good purine count, but unfortunately my local fish store has been unable to get it yet. Cod is pretty light and I don't know about trout.

My usual diet is mostly protien and fat with very low carbs, H-G with type O modifications.

Your guidelines have been very helpful, but I am wondering if there is any chart that you are aware of that quantifies purine content? As a general rule of thumb, the "darker" meats and fish seem to have the most purine content, but what about other foods? You have mentiond at different times that eggs and legumes have a high purine count, as well as some vegetables. Is there some other way to know what would have high purine content?

Thanks. I appreciate all your help.

Louise


Follow Ups:


Re: Another question for Bob ...re: purines

Posted by Robert McFerran on September 02, 1998 at 15:40:32:

In Reply to: Another question for Bob ...re: purines posted by Louise on September 02, 1998 at 13:29:48:

Louise,

First I need to correct something you mentioned in your last post. Egss are NOT rich in purines. You've probably found that they help with your hypoglycemia due to their cholesterol and not their purine content since they happen to be rather low in purines.

There is no list that I'm aware of that attaches numbers with purine amounts to various foods. Organ meats are the highest.

You can be an EXTREME Hunter-gatherer and do fine with the elimination diet. You will get enough purines from the fish (even white fish) to complete the diet. To feel your best you might have to eat 4 or 5 meals a day.

The beef and chicken livers have to wait until after you've cleared. They would be one of the FIRST things that I would test after clearing (I think our friend Lori had a ribeye :) ).

Bob


Follow Ups:


Re: Another question for Bob ...re: purines

Posted by Ignacio on September 02, 1998 at 17:26:50:

In Reply to: Re: Another question for Bob ...re: purines posted by Robert McFerran on September 02, 1998 at 15:40:32:

Robert:

I can't tell you how helpful your comments have been. If you can, I would like you to answer even more questions.


Based on your discussions, I purchased Rudolf Wiley's book Biobalance. I have not yet acquired the journal article which he states explains the science behind the book (and even if I did find the article, I might not understand it).

First, the book explains the different metabolic types (Agricultrualist, Hunter-Gatherer, Mixed) in terms of acid-alkaline level of the venous blood plasma. Is the idea that purine level is the primary determinant of how food will affect plasma's acid-alkaline reading?

Second, the diets in the book stress the importance of tailoring one's vitamin and mineral supplements to one's metabolic type. I noticed that Vitamin C (ascorbic acid) is to be avoided by acidic types (hunter-gatherers) and is to be taken by alkaline types (agriculturalists). So, I would think it prudent that one get off one's supplements before one runs the elimination diet (since the supplements could be the problem). However, I have found twice through my own experience--and have read that it is frequently the experience of others--that a rapid decrease in Vitamin C intake can induce cold- and flu-like symptoms. So my question is . . . shouldn't we who wish to try the elimination diet first eliminate our supplements? And if we are doing that, shouldn't we be doing so cautiously, which means weaning ourselves by slowly reducing the dose?

I hope this helps some others avoid some pain,

Ignacio


Follow Ups:


Re: Another question for Bob ...re: purines

Posted by Robert McFerran on September 02, 1998 at 23:21:49:

In Reply to: Re: Another question for Bob ...re: purines posted by Ignacio on September 02, 1998 at 17:26:50:

Ignacio,

I'm glad that you got BioBalance. There are two reasons why I haven't used Dr. Wiley's acid/mixed/alkaline descriptions of different types of metabolism. First, his book was overlooked because folks perceived that when they heard anything about pH that it was the same pH stuff that Naturopathic Medicine has used (unsuccessfully might I add).

The second reason is that while the biochemistry is compelling to a chemist -- the average person has difficulty getting their arms around what is going on metabolically at the molecular leve. I also found that new anthropological findings dovetail BEAUTIFULLY with Dr. Wiley's biochemisty. I would strongly suggest that you read Dr. Weston Price's NUTRITION AND PHYSICAL DEGENERATION. You'll probably have to find it at your local college library. It is the PIVITAL point that describes so simply and eloquently what happened as indiginous peoples became maladaped to their diets.

Purines, fat and salt are the three major determinants for blood plasma pH. Purines probably are the most powerful drivers of blood plasma pH. By the way I have confirmed the movements up and down of blood plasma pH with different foods -- it took a lot of blood to prove to myself that Wiley was quite right.

You should NEVER be taking any supplements during the elimination diet. My recommendations will be different from Dr. Wiley's when it comes to vitamin C. BioBalance was written before the advent of Ester-C -- which will not alter blood plasma pH.

I've heard of the rebound phenomenon when someone abruptly stops taking large doses of vitamin C. I would suggest that they halve the dose every two days until they get to less than one gram (1,000 mgs) per day and then stop completely. Then they can begin the elimination diet.

Bob





Re: Purine content of foods

Posted by Sharon F. on September 03, 1998 at 00:52:50:

In Reply to: Another question for Bob ...re: purines posted by Louise on September 02, 1998 at 13:29:48:

This information is from "Food Values of Portions Commonly Used" by Jean A. T. Pennington, ISBN 0-06-273156-4.

PURINE-YIELDING FOODS

Foods Highest in Purines (150-825 mg/100 g)
anchovies (363 mg/100 g)
brains
kidney (beef--200 mg/100 g)
game meats
gravies
herring
liver (calf/beef--233 mg/100 g)
mackeral
meat extracts (160-400 mg/100 g)
sardines (295 mg/100 g)
scallops
sweetbreads (825 mg/100 g)

Foods High in Purines (50-150 mg/100 g)
asparagus
breads & cereals, whole grain
cauliflower
eel
fish, fresh & saltwater
legumes, beans/lentils/peas
meat--beef/lamb/pork/veal
meat soups & broths
mushrooms
oatmeal
peas, green
poultry--chicken/duck/turkey
shellfish--crab/lobster/oysters
spinach
wheat germ & bran

Foods Lowest in Purines (0-50 mg/100 g)
beverages--coffee/tea/sodas
breads & cereals except whole grain
cheese
eggs
fats
fish roe
fruits & fruit juices
gelatin
milk
nuts
sugars, syrups, sweets
vegetables (except those listed above)
vegetable & cream soups

Dr. George Watson in "Nutrition and Your Mind" has the same listing, with a few additions:
High Purines--heart, mussels, caviar (any type)
Moderate Purines--shrimp, yeast, peanuts

Hope this helps.

Sharon


Follow Ups:


Re: Purine content of foods - Thanks, but a couple of ?s

Posted by trish on September 03, 1998 at 14:44:17:

In Reply to: Re: Purine content of foods posted by Sharon F. on September 03, 1998 at 00:52:50:

Sharon,

Thanks for the list - I do have a few questions; what's the difference between sweetbreads and brains?

Also, fish roe and caviar...Watson says caviar is HIGH in purines, but Pennington says "fish roe" is in the "lowest" category. I eat sushi a lot and love the salmon roe.

Finally, what about chicken and chicken liver? The liver's not listed with the beef/calf liver, and I was under the impression that dark meat chicken was higher in purines that white meat...

Anybody know the answers?

Thanks in advance!

trish


Follow Ups:


Re: Purine content of foods - Thanks, but a couple of ?s

Posted by Robert McFerran on September 03, 1998 at 21:03:15:

In Reply to: Re: Purine content of foods - Thanks, but a couple of ?s posted by trish on September 03, 1998 at 14:44:17:

Trish,

Purines reside in a class of molecules known as neucleoproteins. Neucleoproteins are found in DNA and RNA. Given this I would have to assume that roe (fish eggs) are very high in RNA/DNA -- therefore high in neucleoproteins/purines.

Chicken liver (like any other liver) is high in neucleoproteins. Relatively speaking, the dark meats are higher in neucloproteins/purines than their ligher colored counterparts. The darker meats also tend to have more fat -- something needed in larger amounts by H-G types.

Bob



Re: Purine content of foods - sweetbreads & brains

Posted by Sharon F. on September 04, 1998 at 01:49:45:

In Reply to: Re: Purine content of foods - Thanks, but a couple of ?s posted by trish on September 03, 1998 at 14:44:17:

Hi Trish,

Sweetbreads are the thymus or pancreas of an animal (especially a calf) used for food; the thymus being the throat sweetbread or neck sweetbread, the pancreas the stomach sweetbread.

Mmmm...and I thought it was difficult to eat liver at first, but now I almost enjoy it. I'm not so sure about sweetbreads! :-)

Sharon (a blood type A Hunter-Gatherer)



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