Metabolic Type and ER4YT Diets historical posts July 1998

Blood Type Diets

Posted by Tony A on July 20, 1998 at 13:56:44:

Dr. Stoll,
I was wondering if you have any thoughts concerning tailoring your menu based on what blood type you are. I have been very sick for over a year now, and have been on a blood type diet for 3 months now as a last resort. I must admit I have only seen minimal improvement, and that could be just from eating, whole, organic foods, and practicing relaxation techniques. Do you think I should give this diet more of a chance, or am I just wasting my time, and why?
Thanks for the help!

Tony




Re: Blood Type Diets

Posted by Walt Stoll on July 21, 1998 at 11:41:30:

In Reply to: Blood Type Diets posted by Tony A on July 20, 1998 at 13:56:44:

Dear Tony,

After this length of time you are probably one for whom this approach does not work. Also this is just about the time when you should be seeing improvement from your relaxation technique.

I know Peter well enough to tell him what I think of his book. It has a grain of truth to it & will work for a % of people who do it right. Unfortunately, that is a minority of people & the danger is that, for those for whom it does not work, they will throw out the baby with the bathwater----
and THAT would be a shame.

Walt



Re: Blood Type Diets

Posted by SharonJ on July 21, 1998 at 13:31:30:

In Reply to: Blood Type Diets posted by Tony A on July 20, 1998 at 13:56:44:

As a type B blood excluding chicken from my diet completely eliminated my morning arthritis. I never had indigestion to indicate this food was a problem and was eating it at least twice a week (because it's cheap). Where else could I have found this targeted information except from Dr. D'adamo's work. I don't follow the diet religiously (still indulge in cherry tomatoes from our garden), but that little gem alone has saved me years of suffering. Supplements of calcium, ester-C, pycnogynol etc. were powerless to unto the damage of a food that did not suit me. I value the work of all scientists and doctors that help us modify our lives and diets leading to life more abundant. Let's not make this a right/wrong issue; these contributions may be lifesavers for some.


Why either /or ? Both together can be very symbiotic

Posted by Louise on July 21, 1998 at 18:00:30:

In Reply to: Re: Blood Type Diets posted by Walt Stoll on July 21, 1998 at 11:41:30:

Peter D'Adamo's Eat Right Theory and Dr. Stoll's work are both very valuable tools for helping people gain optimum health. I see no reason why they can't be used together. The lectin factor is a compelling one, and the metaobolism adjustment is a very importatant distinction.

The type A diet, for instance, can be used by a fast oxidizer with more emphasis on a "heavier" diet (more protien) and the addition of purines. How would this be contradictory?

Also, an O person with a slow metabloism could eat a lighter (less protien and purines) diet with the foods allowed according to blood type. I see a greater added value when used together.


Re: Blood Type Diets

Posted by Walt Stoll on July 22, 1998 at 11:00:30:

In Reply to: Re: Blood Type Diets posted by SharonJ on July 21, 1998 at 13:31:30:

Dear Sharon,

This is EXACTLY what I am talking about when I share my concerns about "throwing the baby out with the bathwater". Peter's work has profound validity for some people & the only way I know to find those people is to do what you have done: TRY IT!

Thanks for your testimonial. Everyone would benefit from reading Peter's book & SOME would benefit from trying it.

This brings up another of my favorite recommendations: "Listen to your body."

Walt



Re: Why either /or ? Both together can be very symbiotic

Posted by Robert McFerran on July 22, 1998 at 13:38:50:

In Reply to: Why either /or ? Both together can be very symbiotic posted by Louise on July 21, 1998 at 18:00:30:

Louise,

Try this diet. I'll predict it will work better for you than a 'modified' type O diet.

RECOMMENDATIONS for AGRICULTURALIST DIET

Meat, Fish, Poultry:
ALLOWED: All light fish (either fresh or frozen) such as scrod, cod, flounder, sole, turbot, perch1 haddock and well rinsed fancy white albacore tuna packed in water (*); ideally white tuna should be soaked in water and refrigerated for at least twelve hours prior to consumption; as a rule of thumb with exceptions noted below, if the color of the fish in question is pure white or pale off-white then it is in all probability acceptable; lean, skinned chicken and turkey breast; lean pork, low salt ham (*) should be pretreated in the same fashion as tuna; low salt/low fat sausages may be eaten but not for breakfast. Meat, fish or poultry of any variety should NEVER be eaten for breakfast (a sample menu is listed below).

AVOID: Organ meats such as liver, kidneys, brains, sweetbreads, tongue, tripe, etc.; fatty pork, bacon (*) and heavily salted hams (*); all red meats including venison and veal; lamb; duck and goose; cold cuts of any variety (*); poultry wings, thighs and drumsticks; all darker meat and some cold water fish either fresh, frozen or canned (*) such as salmon, dark meat tuna (often labeled as 'chunk light'), swordfish, dark meat bluefish, mackerel, sardines, herrings, caviar and salmon roe; all shell fish such as scallops, abalone, oysters, clams and black mussels; escargot/snails; all crustaceans such as shrimp, crab, lobster and crayfish; squid/calamari octopus; all frankfurters of any variety irrespective of the fact they may be low in salt and additive-free and "all natural", including chicken franks, beef franks, pork franks, turkey franks and tofu franks (see vegetables below).

* All asterisked items are candida inducing.

Vegetables:

ALLOWED: Lettuce (any variety), tomatoes (any variety), cucumbers (peeled if waxed), peppers (any variety, sweet or hot), fresh garlic (not garlic salt), fresh horseradish (if in a jar then it should be a low or no salt variety), onions (any variety) including leeks and scallions, potatoes of any variety (but NOT fried), cabbage of any variety, broccoli, broccoli raabe, mustard greens1 eggplant (but NOT fried or parinigiana), brussel sprouts, bean sprouts, zucchini and summer squash. Kale, sweet potatoes (*), yams (*), and all gourd/autumnal squashes (*) such as llokkaido pumpkin, buttercup squash, butternut squash and acorn squash may be eaten in moderation. FRESH SALADS SHOULD BE EATEN DAILY. All produce should be fresh. Frozen produce may be used occasionally. It is suggested that canned produce (*) be avoided if possible. Celery and carrots should be used sparingly. Carrot shavings in a salad are appropriate whereas several carrots as part of a snack are inappropriate.

AVOID: All leguminous vegetables such as peas, beans and lentils of any variety including tofu (soy bean curd); spinach, cauliflower, artichokes and asparagus.

Fungi:

AVOID: all mushrooms (*).

Fruits:

ALLOWED: Any melon and fresh citrus fruit such as oranges1 tangerine 5, grape fruits, lemons, limes, pineapple and tangelos, including fresh squeezed citrus juice (not from concentrate). Melons and fresh citrus or its juice should be eaten/drunk each morning (See outline of typical breakfast/lunch and dinner). While citrus may be eaten at any time of the day, the following fruits should be eaten in the afternoon only if desired: apples (peeled and cored), pears (peeled and cored), plums1 apricots1 peaches, berries, cherries and grapes. Except for extreme cases of candidiasis, fresh fruit is not candida inducing.

AVOID: Avocadoes and olives. Bananas may be used sparingly as a dessert or part of a meal (never for breakfast or in the a.m.). No more than 2 or 3 bananas should be consumed weekly. All bananas should be "green tipped" and not fermented to the point of being extremely ripe, black or moldy.

Dairy:

ALLOWED: Any dairy (cow's or goat's milk, yogurt and cottage cheese) whose fat content is less than or equal to 1.5%. If a lactose intolerance exists all dairy should be lactose reduced or if unavailable in this form, should be pretreated with Lactaid. This intolerance may not be an issue once BioBalance is achieved. Yogurt need not be pretreated. Low fat ricotta cheese and low fat mozzarella cheese are permitted in small quantities only during the evening meal if desired. Low fat ricotta and mozzarella should never be used as a main source of protein. Because of its salt content it is advisable that low fat mozzarella cheese be pretreated in the same fashion as tuna and ham (stated above). [t is of course impossible to pre-treat mozzarella cheese with lactaid and in this regard, this recommendation may be over-looked here.

AVOID: Any other dairy and cheese (*) whether or not it is lactose reduced. In essence, all dairy which contains 2% milk fat or more should be avoided.

Eggs:

ALLOWED: Eggs of any variety whether they are fertilized or unfertilized. Ideally, eggs should not be eaten for breakfast on a regular basis. They may be fried only with a small amount of margarine and not butter. Fats are discussed in additional detail below. Poaching or boiling are permitted

Whole Grains:

ALLOWED: All whole grains with the exception of corn (see below). Whole grains include; brown rice (any length), oats/oat meal, whole barley, buckwheat, millet, rye, wheat and amaranth. The use of Essene (phon. Ah-Seen) bread and rice cakes is encouraged in that these breads contain neither flour or yeast. Unleavened breads containing flour are also permitted but should be used in moderation, such as Norwegian flat bread, matzo bread and sourdough bread. All other breads (*) should be used sparingly if not avoided. Any sugar free breakfast cereal is also permitted such as corn flakes (despite the fact corn is not permitted), puffed rice, shredded wheat, cream of (brown) rice, cream of rye, etc. With the exception of Essene bread, rice cakes and breakfast cereals, whole grains should not be introduced until the afternoon and evening meals. Whole grains should be eaten daily.

AVOID: Corn and popcorn.

Nuts and Nut Butters:
AVOID: All nuts and seeds as well as nut and seed butters, especially peanuts and peanut butter.

Fats:
ALLOWED: Safflower or corn oil; safflower, corn or soy margarine; "all natural" sugar-free mayonnaise is preferable although other types of mayonnaise are permitted if used sparingly.

AVOID: Olive oil, butter and lard.

Beverages:
ALLOWED: Regular coffee (not decaffeinated) may be used "medicinally" in that caffeine is extremely acid inducing in its potential and may be used to abort an especially severe alkaline episode. One cup of regular coffee each morning with breakfast should be encouraged unless an idiopathic reaction occurs. In the unlikely event that such a reaction occurs, it will likely occur within the first few days of the program and consist of stomach cramps. An additional cup of coffee later in the day may also be drunk if needed, especially to counter- effect mid-afternoon fatigue. Regular tea (non-decaffeinated) may also be used instead of coffee. Tea however is less effective than coffee and is more candida inciting in it’s potential than coffee. Low sodium or zero sodium club soda is permitted as is distilled water. Tap water may be used for cooking purposes unless there is reason to believe that its source is contaminated. While fruit juice concentrates(*) should ideally be avoided, they may be used sparingly (tomato juice and fruit juice). Fresh fruit juices1 especially citrus fruit juices are encouraged. if diluted lemon or lime juice can be tolerated (not from concentrate or reconstituted), it may be used to abort alkaline episodes and achieve transient BioBalance.

Agriculturist types must keep well hydrated especially, but not exclusively in hot weather. It is noteworthy that hot weather will tend to accentuate an underlying metabolic imbalance. consequently alkaline types may want to abstain from eating all meat, fish and poultry and possibly eggs during extreme hot weather spells, substituting low fat yogurt instead.

AVOID: Soft drinks and alcoholic beverages whose alcohol content does not exceed 12% by volume may be used very sparingly. Any alcoholic beverage whose content by volume exceeds 12% should be avoided, especially mixed drinks made with milk fat.

Miscellaneous:
ALLOWED: Lean, dilute, clarified chicken broth (irrespective of the type of meat (light or dark) used in preparing the broth); once again, meat or meat by-products should never be eaten for breakfast; low or no salt, additive-free mustard, ketchup (*), horse radish, hot sauce, mayonnaise (*), salad dressing and vinegar (*) may be used. Tomato based sauces and soups are permitted provided that they are home made and provided that sauces do not contain excessive amounts of oil and salt, and do not contain any of the foods which should be avoided. Canned tomatoes (*) may be used on occasion. Low fat (1.5% or less) milk based soups and sauces may also be used if they are prepared with low fat lactose reduced milk, eggs, potato flour (not arrowroot or cornstarch) and any allowed oil or margarine so as not to exceed the individual's daily caloric fat intake. The absence of these soups and sauces could result in a rather boring cuisine and may prove discouraging. Any herb or spice may be used in moderation. Fresh garlic may also be used, generously if desired.

AVOID: Added salt, meat gravies of any variety, dehydrated bouillon cubes, monosodium glutamate, creamy based sauces and soups made with whole milk, half n' half or heavy cream (such as New England Clam Chowder). As a rule, processed foods and 'party" foods such as potato chips, tortilla chips, etc., should be avoided or used very sparingly irrespective of whether they are low in salt or not. Shoyu, mi so, tamari and soy sauce should be used very sparingly.

Desserts:
ALLOWED: Subject to the warning that all desserts should be used very sparingly, the following desserts are allowed; zero or/low fat sherbet such as Sorbet (phon: Sor-Bay), fruit pies or torts absent the crust especially if the crust is high in fat and contains lard or butter. Fruit of the allowed variety is always permitted. In the event excessive alkalinity occurs which will result in the re-emergence of pre-existing symptoms, a snack of citrus, accompanied (if desired) by low/no salt rice cakes and some non-decaffeinated coffee with a small amount of sugar may be ingested. The probability is rather high that within 30 to 60 minutes there will be a significant reduction in symptom severity.

In the case of the alkaline individual, sugar offers risks as well as benefits in that if taken sparingly it can have therapeutic effects since sugar is highly acid-inducing and will thus serve to reduce pre-existing alkaline imbalance which is the primary source of the distress in this case. Excessive ingestion of sugar however (more than approximately 1 to 2 level teaspoons per day) will serve to increase risk for incurring candida overgrowth. Furthermore concentrated fats as incorporated in the desserts described below will produce deleterious effects which will far outweigh any of the transient benefits which may be derived by occasionally ingesting small amounts of sugar.

AVOID: Ice cream, cheese cake, pastries, etc.

A NOTE ON RESTAURANT DINING:

Most restaurants offer an acceptable or allowed "catch of the day". Broiled or baked fish without fatty sauces that usually accompany seafood of this fashion is acceptable. Seafood fried in batter ("tempura") should be avoided. If appropriate seafood is not available, chicken breast or lean pork (in that order of preference) may be ordered. All "Fast Foods" should be avoided. If possible, low salt cuisine is always preferable. Salt should not be added. Currently, the product "Mrs. Dash's" may provide an alternative to salt. "K Salt" is not recommended.

METHODS OF PREPARATION:

Any method is acceptable except for deep fat frying or tempura frying. To reiterate, fast foods are to be avoided. Stir frying is permitted if small amounts of allowed fat are used to lightly coat the wok or skillet to prevent sticking. Stir frying in this fashion should be encouraged in that it will add variety to what could easily become rather boring cuisine. It is suggested that aluminum cookware not be used. Stainless steel, cast iron, glass and ceramic are all acceptable. Teflon is also acceptable. Once again, ideally salt should not be added.

Some basic methods of preparing whole grains are summarized below:

Brown Rice or Barley: Add 3 cups of either grain to 5 cups of water cooker. Bring to full head of steam, reduce in a stainless steel pressure heat to low, insert a heat deflector element between the pressure cooker and the heating element (gas or electric) and let cook for 50 minutes.


Buckwheat or Millet: Any desired amount of either grain may be pan toasted over low heat in a cast iron skillet for 20 to 30 minutes, stirring occasionally. An equal amount of water or more if desired should then be added. Cover and let simmer until water is fully absorbed.

TYPICAL BREAKFAST, LUNCH AND DINNER
BREAKFAST: 1 cup of regular coffee (freeze dried but not decaffeinated), 1 glass fresh squeezed orange juice, 1/2 grapefruit, 1 bowl of shredded wheat with low fat lactose reduced milk.
Meat, fish poultry and eggs should not be eaten for breakfast at any time.

MID Morning SNACK: (optional) 1 cup of regular coffee (if desired) or weakly brewed tea plus 1 orange or tangerine.

LUNCH: Salad consisting of: Lettuce, tomatoes, radishes, onions, peppers, cucumbers (peeled if waxed), shredded cabbage, raw broccoli plus one or two hard boiled eggs. If eggs elicit an adverse reaction then they should be eliminated and coffee intake should be reduced in an attempt to avoid excessive acid induction. Salad dressing may consist of safflower oil, freshly squeezed lemon and minced garlic (if desired); 1 slice of Essene bread or rice cake(s). Beverage may consist of herbal tea (any variety) or weakly brewed regular tea.

Some alkaline types may wish to avoid meat, fish, poultry and eggs for lunch as well in the event some symptoms reemerge in the afternoon. In the event meat, fish, poultry and eggs are not included as part of lunch then low fat dairy (preferably low fat yogurt) should form the basis of protein intake during the morning and afternoon.

MID AFTERNOON SNACK: (optional) l cup of regular coffee (if desired) or weakly brewed tea plus l peeled, cored apple and tangerine.

DINNER: Fillet of Sole baked with lemon and teaspoon of safflower oil. Steamed zucchini and tomatoes, baked potato and brown rice. Safflower or corn oil or margarine may be placed on the vegetables and rice. 1 cup of herbal tea (any variety).

It must be re-emphasized that this is not a "high coffee" diet and that coffee should never be used indiscriminately and only "medicinally" as described above.


RECOMMENDED VITAMIN/MINERAL SUPPLEMENTS

Supplements should never be taken until after the individual's acid/alkaline BioProfile has been well defined over a minimal period of 30 days. In the event these supplements cannot be tolerated, they should not be taken.


A full dose of vitamins is defined as follows:
Vitamin/Mineral Full Dose
A (fish liver oil) 10,000 lUs
D 400 lUs
C 500 mgs
BI 10 mgs
B2 l0mgs
B6 l0mgs
Niacin 25 mgs
Para Amino Benzoic Acid 100 mgs
Folic Acid 200 mcg
Biotin l50mcg
Potassium 200 mgs
Magnesium l00mgs
Iron 15mgs
Copper 1 mg
Manganese 5mgs
Chromium l00mcg

All minerals should be "chelated". Insofar as the dosages listed above are concerned, the "elemental" quantity specified on the bottle's label and not the chelated amount constitute a "Full Dosage". Hence (for example) if the label lists that each tablet contains 500 mgs of magnesium chelate which in turn contains 100 mgs of elemental magnesium, one tablet will satisfy the requirements listed here.
A full dose is to be taken after breakfast and again after lunch. If an intolerable niacin "flushing" reaction occurs, then the dosage of niacin only is to be reduced to 10 mgs per full dose. Flushing is defined as similar to transient sunburn. It is noteworthy that the probability of occurrence of a "flushing" reaction at 25 mgs of Niacin per full dose is extremely low.

These dosages are appropriate for an individual whose weight ranges from 120 to 200 pounds. Individuals weighing less than 120 pounds should take only half the dosages listed here, while individuals weighing more than 200 pounds should take 1.5 times the dosages listed here.

It is noteworthy that hot weather accentuates an underlying alkaline condition. Hence alkaline types must be especially rigorous with their regimens during episodes of extremely hot weather. As indicated, alkaline types may wish to abstain from eating meat, fish and poultry as well as eggs in extremely hot weather, substituting only low fat dairy for protein.

Louise,

Now eliminate these foods which contain lectins that react with O blood type.

Type O

Wheat
Corn
Kidney Beans
Lentils
Cabbage
Brussel Sprouts
Cauliflower
Mustard Greens
Potato

Type A

Milk
Kidney Beans
Lima Beans
Wheat (in overabundance)
Meat (in ‘agriculturist’ metabolic types only)
Tomato

Type B

Corn
Lentils
Peanuts
Sesame Seeds
Buckwheat
Wheat
Tomato

Type AB

Kidney Beans
Lima Beans
Seeds
Corn
Buckwheat
Wheat
Tomato

The difference is that you START with proper metabolic diet and THEN avoid lectins specific to your blood type. By the way, is there any source that shows the results of physical testing of food lectins and blood type?

Bob


Re: Why either /or ? Both together can be very symbiotic

Posted by Walt Stoll on July 22, 1998 at 15:21:41:

In Reply to: Why either /or ? Both together can be very symbiotic posted by Louise on July 21, 1998 at 18:00:30:

Dear Louise,

I couldn't agree more! ALL of the stuff we discuss on this BB will work better if worked together AND even better yet if the individual will learn enough to intelligently combine what THAT individual needs.

This concept has been described by world class researchers for at least 50 years.

Walt



RE: avoid list adjustment

Posted by SharonJ on July 22, 1998 at 15:27:29:

In Reply to: Re: Why either /or ? Both together can be very symbiotic posted by Robert McFerran on July 22, 1998 at 13:38:50:

Bob,

It's not critical for you, but please include CHICKEN as an avoid for B's and AB's. After corn it seems to cause the greatest inflamation in us B's. Thank You.

A fellow admirer of Dr. Watson's and Dr. Wiley's work,
Sharon


Perhaps I was not clear....

Posted by Louise on July 22, 1998 at 18:28:09:

In Reply to: Re: Why either /or ? Both together can be very symbiotic posted by Robert McFerran on July 22, 1998 at 13:38:50:

I am an O with a very fast metabolism. I am also gluten intolerant. Your diet would have me bloated, bleeding and probably unconscious.

I beleive you gave me the diet for a slow oxidizer. I need a very heavy purine diet to stablize, or I have severe hypoglycemic reactions. I modify the classic O diet with very limited carbs, high fat and heavy purine animal protien and strive for ketosis to maitain weight loss...

It has worked very well for me.

Louise


Re: Perhaps I was not clear....

Posted by Robert McFerran on July 22, 1998 at 23:45:27:

In Reply to: Perhaps I was not clear.... posted by Louise on July 22, 1998 at 18:28:09:

Louise,

YIKES!! You are right. If you are hypoglycemic (confirmed via a 5 hour glucose tolerance test) you would be just the opposite of what I last posted. Try this diet instead and pull out the grains and other lectin containing foods that react with your blood type.

You'll be interested to see that this diet has more fat, and much more purines (from the dark meats and vegetables) that Dr. D's O diet. It should serve your inherited metabolic needs very well.

NUTRITIONAL REGIMEN APPROPRIATE FOR
HUNTER-GATHERER BIOCHEMICAL TYPES

RECOMMENDATIONS

Meat, Fish, Poultry:
ALLOWED: Organ meats such as liver, kidneys, brains, sweet- breads, tongue, tripe, etc.; pork ribs, bacon (*); all red meats including venison and veal; lamb; cold cuts (*) of any variety but preferably additive-free; dark meat poultry (either chicken or turkey) such as poultry wings, thighs and drum- sticks, skin may be left on when fried as desired (see methods of preparation below); duck and goose; all darker meat fish and some cold water fish either fresh, frozen or canned (*) such as salmon, dark meat tuna (often labeled as "chunk light") especially when packed in oil, swordfish, dark meat bluefish, mackerel, sardines (*), herrings (*), caviar and salmon roe, all shell fish such as scallops, abalone, oysters, clams and black mussels; escargot/snails; all crustaceans such as shrimp, crab, lobster and crayfish; squid/calamari, octopus; all frankfurters of any variety but preferably additive-free, including chicken franks, beef franks, pork franks, turkey franks and soy/tofu franks (see vegetables below).

AVOID: All light fish (either fresh or frozen) such as scrod, cod, flounder, sole, turbot, perch, haddock and fancy or solid white albacore tuna (*); chicken and turkey breast; lean pork, ham(*).

MEAT, FISH AND POULTRY OF THE ALLOWED VARIETIES
SHOULD BE EATEN AT EVERY MEAL.

* All asterisked items are candida inducing.

Vegetables:
ALLOWED: All leguminous vegetables such as peas, lentils and beans of any variety including tofu (soy bean curd), potatoes especially if fried or buttered to taste (fats will be discussed below), carrots, celery, spinach, cauliflower, artichokes as well as artichoke hearts (artichoke hearts bottled in oil are acceptable) and asparagus. All produce should be fresh and well rinsed to reduce pesticide ingestion. Individuals harboring significant levels of candida may at times be sensitive to insecticides used in agricultural application. Frozen produce may be used occasionally. It is suggested that canned produce (*) be avoided if possible. All gourd/autumnal squashes (*) such as Hokkaido pumpkin, buttercup squash, butternut squash and acorn squash may be eaten sparingly.

Avoid: Lettuce (any variety), tomatoes (any variety), cucumbers, peppers (any variety, sweet or hot), fresh garlic (garlic salt may be used sparingly), horseradish, onions (any variety) including leeks and scallions, cabbage of any variety, broccoli, broccoli raabe, mustard greens, eggplant, brussel sprouts, bean sprouts, zucchini and summer squash, kale, beets (*), sweet potatoes (*) and yams (*)

Fungi
ALLOWED: All mushrooms (*)

Fruits:
ALLOWED: Avocados and olives. Bananas may be used sparingly as a dessert or part of a meal. No more than 2 or 3 bananas should be consumed weekly. All bananas should be "green tipped" and not fermented to the point of being extremely ripe. The following fruits may be eaten cored and peeled, sparingly if desired and preferably with some nut or seed butter or at the end of an appropriate meal: apples and pears.

AVOID: All melons and citrus fruit (whether fresh or from concentrate) such as oranges, tangerines, grapefruits, lemons, limes, pineapple and tangelos. Also all of the following should be avoided as well: plums, apricots, peaches, berries, cherries and grapes.

Dairy:
ALL DAIRY SHOULD BE USED SPARINGLY AND NOT AS A PROTEIN SUBSTITUTE FOR MEAT, FISH OR POULTRY.

ALLOWED: Any whole dairy


Re: RE: avoid list adjustment

Posted by Rboert McFerran on July 22, 1998 at 23:52:09:

In Reply to: RE: avoid list adjustment posted by SharonJ on July 22, 1998 at 15:27:29:

Sharon,

Thanks for the input.

Does chicken contain a specific lectin that agglomerates B's and AB's or was it just a D'Adamo observation that they seem to have trouble with it?

By the way, which one of the metabolic subsets do you fall into? What is your experience with chicken in terms of symptoms?

Thanks,

Bob


Re:Help me Robert!

Posted by Tony A on July 23, 1998 at 13:24:13:

In Reply to: Re: Why either /or ? Both together can be very symbiotic posted by Robert McFerran on July 22, 1998 at 13:38:50:

Robert:

I've been reading your posts with great interest. I guess I started something with my health type diet question. I am new to all of this natural health stuff. The reason I was on the er4yt diet was because it helped my friend and his family tremendously, so I was hoping it would help me.

I've been sick for over a year now with a myriad of symptoms, but no diagnosis. I've been on the er4yt diet from the elder D'Adamo, James, for 3 months now and have seen minimal improvement. He does address some of your concerns, by including subtypes. I am an A with B tendencies, therefore I am supposed to have some meat.

I am very interested in the diets you were mentioning, and wondering if you could send me Dr. Wiley's book title, so I could get more info on his diets, and any other info on diets you think are really good. You can post it here, or send it to me directly at psh70@hotmail.com.

Thanks for any help you can give.

Tony A


Re:Help me Robert!

Posted by Robert McFerran on July 23, 1998 at 13:30:30:

In Reply to: Re:Help me Robert! posted by Tony A on July 23, 1998 at 13:24:13:

Tony,

See my response to you in an earlier post suggesting starting a new thread at the top of this BB.

The book is BIOBALANCE by Dr. Rudolph Wiley.

Bob

p.s. -- I don't buy this stuff about subtypes about you being an A with B tendencies (what does that mean??)



Re:Thanks Robert!

Posted by Tony A on July 23, 1998 at 13:39:01:

In Reply to: Re:Help me Robert! posted by Robert McFerran on July 23, 1998 at 13:30:30:

Rob,

Thanks for the book title. As for the blood subtypes, that is how James D'Adamo has supposedly further refined his groupings, in order to incorporate the different types of A's, B's, and O's.

Also, I don't know what you mean about starting a new thread.

Thanks again!

Tony


Re: RE: avoid list adjustment

Posted by SharonJ on July 23, 1998 at 17:25:09:

In Reply to: Re: RE: avoid list adjustment posted by Rboert McFerran on July 22, 1998 at 23:52:09:

This is a specific lectin that agglutinates the B antigen (curiously found in chicken meat, but not eggs - per D'adamo). For nine months I woke up with hot swollen fingers. After moving around a bit (i.e., my body - my hands would be inflexible), 30 minutes, my hands were completely mobile and painless again. Actually I'm typing this from memory because I've never had a recurrence since my last meal of chicken, approx. 10 months ago. Before that every single morning was as I described above. I was only 29 years old when I started getting the stiffness in my left hand (I'm lefthanded), then it started up in my right and had become progessively worse, until I made that ONE dietary adjustment. It took about a week and a half to completely clear my system. It was dramatic and conclusive - no more morning arthritis after being an intractable problem. By the way, my type B Mom just recently described these same symptoms, I have yet to hear back from her, but she had started increasing her consumption of chicken (because it's a cheap and "healthy" meat.)

I appear to be a daily cycler. I primarily identify with the slow oxidizers in the morning (I rarely eat breakfast - thoughts of food nauseate me at this time; I do my exercising here.) and identify increasingly with fast oxidizers as the day wears on. I adore sardines follwed by very little rice around 1 PM, but an attempt to eat them earlier left me indigested the REST of the day. I eat some fruit throughout the day, but avoid it near bedtime. Most days I feel fabulous and then there are those that I wish I had kept a food journal to determine why I'm feeling completely zonked or spacey.

Are you familiar with Dr. Abravanel's work? Ideal diet and lifestyle based on one's dominant endocrine gland. The Thyroid and Pituitary types closely parallel fast metabolizers with a corresponding recommended diet higher in protein. The Gonadal and Adrenal types closely parallel slow metabolizers with a corresponding diet higher in carbos.

Sharon




Re: RE: avoid list adjustment

Posted by Robert McFerran on July 23, 1998 at 18:06:26:

In Reply to: Re: RE: avoid list adjustment posted by SharonJ on July 23, 1998 at 17:25:09:

Sharon,

I cannot thank you enough for bringing the chicken thing to my attention. I will incorporate your advise into the avoid lectins for different blood types in my book.

I have read Dr. Abravanel's work and while I found it interesting it was still a qualitative call rather than more quantitative as to the endocrine gland type. I felt Watson and Wiley's work to be superior in that regard. Obviously there is something to it -- but I fear like blood types that it is only a correlation.

I haven't even broached the subject of someone who cycles daily here on the board since it is so rare and folks tend to want to see themselves in that category when they first learn about something. I really have to commend you for figuring that out.

I have personally found that folks experience the greatest deal of 'metabolic drift' as they sleep overnight. I think this is one key reason for folks with rheumatoid arthritis experiencing 'morning stiffness'. That plus the fact that our adrenals secrete cortisol (the most significant dose of the day) in a circadian fashion at about 7:30 in the morning. This cortisol doesn't take effect usually for about 2-3 hours -- thus when you wake you're going to have a little more residual inflammation until that natural anti-inflammatory steroid kicks in.

Anyone wanting to do a review of metabolism should go to a search engine and find Health Excel. They have a bibliography of readings that are pretty comprehensive in understanding metabolism including the work of Dr. Roger Williams -- the first guy that got me interested in metabolic connections to rheumatoid/autoimmune disease.

I have to say that of all the folks that I've helped with their arthritis NOT ONE OF THEM were eating in a manner consistent with their inherited metabolic type before and at onset of disease. Pretty compelling huh?

Bob




Re:Thanks Robert!

Posted by Robert McFerran on July 23, 1998 at 18:15:49:

In Reply to: Re:Thanks Robert! posted by Tony A on July 23, 1998 at 13:39:01:

Tony,

Go to the upper right hand corner of the ASK DR. STOLL BULLETIN BOARD PAGE and look to the right of the green artwork and you'll see 'post message'.

Click on it and post a new message that will appear at the top of the BB rather than somewhere in the middle.

Bob


Re: RE: avoid list adjustment

Posted by SharonJ on July 24, 1998 at 13:15:38:

In Reply to: Re: RE: avoid list adjustment posted by Robert McFerran on July 23, 1998 at 18:06:26:

A hearty thanks from all us B's for including chicken on your avoid list. I really can't speak for the importance for AB's, probably not as crucial. I welcome one of you to tell me different because my 3 year old daughter is AB and I haven't been letting her have Daddy's evening meal. Am I being an overprotective mom?

As fascinating as I found Dr. Abravanel's book, I couldn't quite make it work for me. I DID very clearly fall into the Thyroid category with significant bread and sweets cravings, but now I see he was not specific enough regarding what protein to eat (I have a limited tolerance for eggs which he recommends as a lifetime morning meal for Thyroid types). Sardines (Dr. Wiley as you know recommends them for fast metabolizers)in particular knock out my carbo cravings, also a multi-mineral supplement containing chromium and vanadium.
My husband is an Adrenal type and clearly has a higher tolerance for carbohydrates. Looking at my daughter's hands from birth (Dr. Abravanel states it shows up this early) revealed them to be obviously meatier than my skinny digits, so I feel safe assuming she'll be a slow metabolizer as her daddy is and can handle the large amount of grapes and raisins they both adore and I've always avoided instinctively. I haven't even looked into how my monthly cycle affects my metabolic needs, just figuring out each day is a challenge. I've been having some luck with sustained energy eating cottage cheese with a little flax seed oil and a small portion of fruit at around 10 AM. What are your thoughts on Dr. Johanna Budwig's work?

I was very interested to learn why my stiff fingers would only show themselves in the morning. Thank You.

No question the body is more resilient when it's fed the proper mix of fuel and can shake off the effects of allergenic foods better than when it's "running on empty".
One must still take care of the root problem; and I suppose the "healed" person will never be pursuaded it's anything other than what s/he did to effect the miracle.

One last thought: I came across this board about two weeks ago (through what means I don't recall) and will likely hang around a while. I had been regularly haunting Dr. D'adamo's board, but it is increasingly becoming restricted to blood type talk only. It's his board after all! But I really have enjoyed the depth and scope of many of the strings here. And especially Dr. Stoll's responses. Time to get his book I think! A special thanks to Bob,

Sharon


Thanks, Bobby! I still have a few questions...

Posted by Louise Anderson on July 24, 1998 at 13:58:55:

In Reply to: Re: Perhaps I was not clear.... posted by Robert McFerran on July 22, 1998 at 23:45:27:

The diet you sent (the second time) is very close to how I am eating now -with the removal of all of the O "avoids", that is.

The questions I have are ...

1. Why must we avoid eating white meat and "light fish"? I can see why they would not be first choice, and the heavier purine rich foods would be preferable, but why avoid them? What harm would they cause?

2. Why must the eggs be fertilized? Is the fertilization more important than being organic and free range?

3. Why are potatoes allowed? Aren't they rather high on the glycemic index? I know they are subtracted because of the O lectins, but isn't it contrary to the fast oxidizer metabloism?

i really appreciate you sending me these diets. I am getting the books you recommend, and am looking forward to your s.

Thanks again,

louise



Re: Thanks, Bobby! I still have a few questions...

Posted by Robert McFerran on July 25, 1998 at 14:16:13:

In Reply to: Thanks, Bobby! I still have a few questions... posted by Louise Anderson on July 24, 1998 at 13:58:55:

Louise,

ALL very good questions!

1. Why must we avoid eating white meat and "light fish"? I can see why they would not be first choice, and the heavier purine rich foods would be preferable, but why avoid them? What harm would they cause?

They really wouldn't cause any harm but they don't have nearly the purine or the fat content that the Hunter-Gatherer metabolism needs to generate energy and more importantly the appropriate blood plasma pH. I have never had a problem eating them in the evenings -- especially if I have enough of the purine rich vegetables. You have to understand that our ancestors ate A LOT of organ meats. Today, at best, we eat a little liver. Wiley is trying to compensate for that fact. I thought that I would NEVER eat liver. I thought that it was simply gross. Now I eat it every day -- it's my favorite meal of the day. It's inexpensive, easy to chew and digest and it makes me feel great!

A good example where you would get in trouble eating one of the light meats is for breakfast. A chicken breast would not sustain you very long where a chicken thigh (with skin on) would.

2. Why must the eggs be fertilized? Is the fertilization more important than being organic and free range?

Not really. I think Wiley just felt that if the eggs were able to be fertilized that they would be of appropriate quality. Perhaps he wrote this before we had 'organic' and 'free range'. Basically if an egg is capable of becoming fertilized it would pass my test and would have to be organic or free range. I guess I'm saying that they would be essentially the same thing -- just different semantics.

3. Why are potatoes allowed? Aren't they rather high on the glycemic index? I know they are subtracted because of the O
lectins, but isn't it contrary to the fast oxidizer metabloism?

Dr. Wiley was unaware of leaky gut as well as lectins. He includes foods (such as whole wheat) that have high allergenic potential. That is why I suggest running an elimination diet first to kick out the major food offenders. Wiley was also unaware of lectins and leaky gut syndrome when he wrote BioBalance. That's why I also kick out the foods that are the worst offenders for certain blood types.

I have researched the 'glycemic index' extensively too. As you know carrots, potatoes, and certain other complex carbohydrates all have suprisingly high index numbers. In other words WHEN EATEN BY THEMSELVES they strongly stimulate the pancreas to excreate insulin -- creating glycemic instability in hypoglycemics (also called hyper-insulinism) as well as diabetics.

I have found that the key is that you NEVER eat these high glycemic index foods ALONE. Many of the foods eaten by our hunter-gatherer ancestors had very high GI (glycemic index) numbers. But they always ate these foods with their meat (which happened to contain a good dose of purine and fat). Parsnips are a good example. They have one of the highest GI numbers. Unlike the potato they are indigenous to Northern Europe and were routinely eaten -- but never raw. Take a taste of a raw parsnip sometimes. They were always used in stews or sauteed in fat -- and they are delicious that way.

My research shows that the major cooking mechanism used by recent hunter-gatherers was to throw most foods into a pot under a fire that burned continually. I don't think that raw foods were a large part of their diet. The opposite is true of the Agriculturist metabolic type.

It is interesting to note that cooking can inactivate certain lectins.

To answer your question about potatoes directly -- I don't eat them.

Bob




Re: RE: avoid list adjustment

Posted by Robert McFerran on July 25, 1998 at 14:43:43:

In Reply to: Re: RE: avoid list adjustment posted by SharonJ on July 24, 1998 at 13:15:38:

Sharon,

I have briefed some of Dr. Johanna Budwig's flax oil research and can only comment that it falls into the category that we now know that we need some 'essential' oils in our diet. Unless we eat unusually well we do need to suppelement them.

As far as kids go I think the safest and best bet is give them a wide range of whole foods -- including of course fish and meats. I'm scared to death what will happen if many school nutritionalists get their way and convert public schools to a completely vegetarian menu. They will see some kids really going bonkers if that happens. What I would like to see is just a whole foods menu!

Your situation reminds me of my sisters. She's a type O that married a guy from Rome, Italy who is type B. Their 3 year old is an AB blood type. I've visited Italy several times and you can't help but not be struck by the difference of the health of people there versus the U.S.

I think their advantage is two part. First, they eat whole foods almost exclusively in your diet. Second, they eat a wide variety of foods. Third, they have been eating like this with little change for a very long time. Fourth, they have had little genetic mixing (at least in Italy). What mixing has taken place has always been slow compared with the U.S. during the last 100 years.

My sister's husband is a MIXED metabolic type where my sister is an Agriculturist. Their son (right now) is Mixed or Hunter-gatherer. They all eat the same diverse whole foods diet and do fine for the most part.

Bob




Re: RE: avoid list adjustment

Posted by SharonJ on July 25, 1998 at 23:17:44:

In Reply to: Re: RE: avoid list adjustment posted by Robert McFerran on July 25, 1998 at 14:43:43:

Bob,

Perhaps it was a typo on your part and you intended to say that your sister was a type A; Else their type AB son is his natural child, but not hers (type O could not have an AB progeny).

In any case, I see you're subtly drawing a potential parallel between your type B son-in-law being a MIXED type and my possibly being one, since you aready know my implied respect for some blood type correlations. And I have strongly considered this and hoped for it, because it would make eating so simple a matter. Nonetheless I am heartily consuming kielbalsa and eggs minus any toast (and couldn't choke any down) at 9:30pm - a meal that would sink me before noon. Any carbos at this time would keep me up all night, but I was fine with two pieces of Ezekiel bread and banana/yogurt shake before noon. As usual I almost didn't want to start eating in the morning; I wait until I'm truly hungry, about 10am. Don't jump to conclusions, I don't usually eat this late in the evening (found something fascinating on the web, lost track of time, found myself famished - you know how THAT is!), so it's not that I don't need food because of last night's excesses.

Good Grief! I just thought of something; maybe I switch when the sun crosses the Midheaven, having mentioned noon twice in this post. Dr. Abravanel has mentioned that loss of morning appetite is common among Thyroid types, but a plate of eggs couldn't whet my appetite at that time. I'm still seeking something that could. I have always eaten prodigious sums of cheese, but can never stomach it early in the day. After breastfeeding my daughter for a year I became quite thin and craved fat in any form, primarily cheese - wish I had known about Flaxseed oil or sardines at that time.

I'm with you for a whole foods menu in the schools. Too bad political power isn't my thing, because it's clearly headed in the direction of the Veggies and they don't show signs of sharing.

Bye for now,
Sharon




Re: RE: avoid list adjustment (Whole Foods Programs)

Posted by Walt Stoll on July 26, 1998 at 10:38:05:

In Reply to: Re: RE: avoid list adjustment posted by SharonJ on July 25, 1998 at 23:17:44:

Hi, Sharon,

To Bob, Too.

I hope you both know that there is a wonderfully organized service for establishing whole foods in schools that has been growing for the past 20 years. it is the Sara Sloan Program and you can get information & statistics from them by calling (404) 768-3600. This program involves the kids, cooks, teachers, parents, administrators, school boards, etc., in an integrated & cooperative approach.

I have not contacted them for years so please let me know what you learn if you do.

Basically, the results of this program show that the kids take what they learn home to their parents--thus answering the question of whether to start with the parents or the kids. Also, violence, aggression, learning deficiencies, hyperactivity, behavioral problems, etc., all decrease by more than 80% within 3 months of starting the program (and that is with just changing ONE meal a day).

Prisons have used the same program & found the same results.

Walt



Re:Whole Foods Programs

Posted by SharonJ on July 26, 1998 at 11:40:06:

In Reply to: Re: RE: avoid list adjustment (Whole Foods Programs) posted by Walt Stoll on July 26, 1998 at 10:38:05:

Walt,

This IS some good news in today's world. My daughter stays at home with me now, so I can offer her the best food available from Whole Foods and good ole Walmart SuperCenter, though I rarely hit the aisles seeing how all the REAL food is located on the periphery. The day is coming when she'll be partially out from under my wing and I will be bringing whatever school she attends under heavy scrutiny, not just in the area of school lunches mind you. Homeschooling isn't an option at this time and our very rural setting gives me hope the school system will be amenable to positive influences from the parents. Thank You for this encouraging information. I had never heard of this organization, though I recall Adelle Davis in the back of one of her books mentioning work in this direction; perhaps I just missed the name.

Glad to be an overprotective Mom,
Sharon

PS: My daughter has been ill exactly three times in her life. She has never required medical attention. Breastfeeding followed by a whole foods diet really work! My Mom thinks that I'm depriving her if I don't give her cookies and candy, but I think she's beginning to see the light by comparing my daughter to her other three grandchildren.


Re:Robert, Would you post the 3rd Diet?

Posted by Karen E. on July 26, 1998 at 13:11:14:

In Reply to: Blood Type Diets posted by Tony A on July 20, 1998 at 13:56:44:

Thank you for the two Diets, Agriculturist and Hunter. I got a great deal of information from these exchanges. I believe I may be Mixed. Or Agriculturist. If I had all three (or are there more than 3?), I believe I could refine my current Diet to match your input and really be eating closely to perfectly for me! I'm currently following D'Adamo's AB suggestions, with some avoids I have discovered, like sardines. Vegetarian and macrobiotic before that, concluding that each offered a step for me along the way. Thanks.


Re: RE: avoid list adjustment

Posted by Robert McFerran on July 26, 1998 at 13:58:09:

In Reply to: Re: RE: avoid list adjustment posted by SharonJ on July 25, 1998 at 23:17:44:

Sharon,

I'm glad you caught that. Actually my sis is a type A, her native Italian husband is AB and her son is B. There, that should make a little more sense.

I'm not subtly drawing a parallel between you and my nephew ;). As anyone will tell you who has read much of my posting is that I LACK subtlteness. I'll tell you EXACTLY what I think :)! And I don't think that blood type infers much of anything about diet.

From everything you've said I'd say that you were a Hunter-Gather because your experiences sound so close to my own............

Bob


Re:Robert, Would you post the 3rd Diet?

Posted by Robert McFerran on July 26, 1998 at 14:04:37:

In Reply to: Re:Robert, Would you post the 3rd Diet? posted by Karen E. on July 26, 1998 at 13:11:14:

Karen,

There are only 3 general Metabolic subsets that were demonstrated by Dr. George Watson and Dr. Rudolph Wiley. This Mixed diet is from Dr. Wiley's book BioBalance. I'd urge anyone intested in this topic to order it from your bookstore for about $15.

Bob

NUTRITIONAL REGIMEN APPROPRIATE FOR
MIXED BIOCHEMICAL TYPES


Mixed types should calorically mix the primaries with the secondaries in a 2:1 ratio at every meal. Hence, the regimen appropriate is somewhat closer to the regimen appropriate for Hunter-Gatherers than the regimen appropriate for Agriculturist types. While tilting somewhat in favor of the primaries is a more forgiving error than tilting too far in favor of the secondaries, complete elimination of the secondaries from this regimen will cause the individual to become too alkaline and suffer accompanying distress.

RECOMMENDATIONS

Meat, Fish, Poultry:

PRIMARY: Organ meats such as liver, kidneys, brains, sweetbreads, tongue, tripe, etc.; pork ribs, bacon (*); all red meats including venison and veal; lamb; cold cuts (*) of any variety but preferably additive-free; dark meat poultry (either chicken or turkey) such as poultry wings, thighs and drum- sticks, skin may be left on when fried as desired (see methods of preparation below); duck and goose; all darker meat fish and some cold water fish either fresh, frozen or canned (*) such as salmon, dark meat tuna (often labeled as chunk light'1) especially when packed in oil (*), swordfish, dark meat bluefish, mackerel, sardines (*), herrings (*), caviar and salmon roe, all shell fish such as scallops, abalone, oysters, clams and black mussels; escargot/snails; all crustaceans such as shrimp, crab, lobster and crayfish; squid/calamari, octopus; all frankfurters of any variety but preferably additive-free, including chicken franks, beef franks, pork franks, turkey franks and soy/tofu franks (see vegetables below).

* All asterisked items are candida inducing.

SECONDARY: All light fish (either fresh or frozen) such as scrod, cod, flounder, sole, turbot, perch, haddock and fancy or solid white albacore tuna (*); chicken and turkey breast; lean pork, ham (*)

MEAT, FISH AND POULTRY OF THE PRIMARY VARIETIES
SHOULD BE EATEN AT EVERY MEAL WlTH THE OCCASIONAL EXCEPTION OF BREAKFAST.

Vegetables:
PRIMARY: All leguminous vegetables such as peas, lentils and beans of any variety including tofu (soy bean curd), potatoes especially if fried or buttered to taste (fats will be discussed below), carrots, celery, spinach, cauliflower, artichokes as well as artichoke hearts (artichoke hearts bottled in oil are acceptable) and asparagus. All produce should be fresh and well rinsed to reduce pesticide ingestion. Individuals harboring significant levels of candida may at times be sensitive to insecticides used in agricultural application. Frozen produce may be used occasionally. It is suggested that canned produce (*) be avoided if possible.

SECONDARY: Lettuce (any variety), tomatoes (any variety), cucumbers, peppers (any variety, sweet or hot), fresh garlic (garlic salt may be used sparingly), horseradish, onions (any variety) including leeks and scallions, cabbage of any variety, broccoli, broccoli raabe, mustard greens, eggplant, brussel sprouts, bean sprouts, zucchini and summer squash, kale, beets (*), sweet potatoes (*), and yams (*), gourd/autumnal squashes (*) such as Hokkaido pumpkin, buttercup squash, butternut squash and acorn squash.

Fungi
PRIMARY: All mushrooms (*)

Fruits:

PRIMARY: Avocados and olives. Bananas may be used sparingly as a dessert or part of a meal. No more than 2 or 3 bananas should be consumed weekly. All bananas should be "green tipped" and not fermented to the point of being extremely ripe. The following fruits may be eaten cored and peeled, sparingly if desired and preferably with some nut or seed butter: apples and pears.

SECONDARY: All melons and citrus fruit (whether fresh or from concentrate) such as oranges, tan


Re: RE: avoid list adjustment

Posted by susie on July 26, 1998 at 21:32:20:

In Reply to: Re: RE: avoid list adjustment posted by Rboert McFerran on July 22, 1998 at 23:52:09:

I'd like to know if the chicken is an avoid for AB because of a lectin. Just because it's an avoid for B does not always make it an avoid for AB. I need more protein in my diet. How long should you give up a food before you reintroduce it back into your diet? Should you then eat it everyday to test it?


Re: RE: avoid list adjustment

Posted by Robert McFerran on July 27, 1998 at 12:18:53:

In Reply to: Re: RE: avoid list adjustment posted by susie on July 26, 1998 at 21:32:20:

Suzie,

I don't know if the lectin is specific for both B's and AB's.....

Here is the elimination diet. If you don't have a hyper-acute response to chicken then just eat it about 3-4 times within a couple of days to see what happens.

THE ELIMINATION DIET

I’ve often talked with folks that were confident that foods didn’t have any impact on their symptoms. I ask is if they’ve ever run a good ‘elimination’ diet and a surprising number assure me that they have. Upon further questioning I always find that they have only eliminated a couple of foods, say milk or wheat or nightshade vegetables (tomatoes, eggplant, peppers, etc.). Even though milk and wheat are common food allergens and nightshade vegetables create problems for those possessing one specific metabolism, this should not be considered a true elimination diet.

Over 85% of people with chronic disease have food allergies. Most will find not one, but a handful of foods acting as the major culprits. This is the reason why eliminating just one or two random foods is all but useless. If you were allergic to a large number of tree pollens, springtime grasses and weeds the removal of only one of these airborne allergens would usually have little impact on your total allergy symptoms. If the allergen was added back into the mix you probably wouldn’t notice. The effect from this one allergen would be hidden or ‘masked’ by your already prominent symptoms to the other allergens. The same phenomenon occurs with foods.

How could we find whether the airborne allergen in the above example was a significant factor in triggering our allergic symptoms? The best way would be to place ourselves in a room with perfectly filtered air (in essence eliminating all airborne allergens) until our allergy symptoms abated. The specific allergen would then be re-introduced and any allergic reaction noted. In this way the impact of a single, specific allergen can be isolated and tested. What was previously thought to be a rather insignificant allergen would often deliver a surprisingly strong allergic response.

We can do the same thing with foods. Historically ‘spring water fasts’ have been employed. Patients would drink only spring water for the initial 4-5 days. This type of ‘fast’ would obviously eliminate all food allergens from the diet. It was maintained for 4-5 days to also allow physical elimination of all foods eaten prior to the start of the ‘fast’ from the digestive tract.

Spring water fasts have one major problem. A significant percentage of individuals cannot tolerate them and should not try them. Their metabolic demands make any kind of extended water fast dangerous.

Fortunately years of previous testing has provided a list of ‘safe’ foods that can be temporarily substituted for your usual diet. These foods are not completely hypo-allergenic but they do have a low allergenic potential. In other words they are rarely found to induce a reaction. The foods include cod, trout, mackerel, pears, parsnips, turnips, rutabaga, sweet potatoes, yams, celery, zucchini, carrots and peaches. Any foods routinely eaten more than twice a week should be removed from the list. All the foods must be fresh and in their ‘whole’ or natural form. No cans or other packaging allowed.

Spring water or sparkling water are the only acceptable liquids. The only allowed condiment is sea or mineral salt. Steaming is an excellent method of preparing foods during your elimination diet.

Prior to starting the diet you’ll need to purchase a bottle of magnesium citrate (found in the laxative section) and alka-seltzer ‘gold’ (it’s found only in the gold colored box). All drugs should be continued. Smoking should be ceased when initiating the diet. You will not be able to eat at restaurants during the diet.

If you work Thursday evening will be the best time to begin. Wait two hours after dinner and pour one-half of the contents of the bottle of magnesium citrate into a tall glass. Add an equal amount of wat


Re: RE: avoid list adjustment

Posted by SharonJ on July 27, 1998 at 15:03:10:

In Reply to: Re: RE: avoid list adjustment posted by Robert McFerran on July 26, 1998 at 13:58:09:

You were thinking earlier that her son got his B from daddy and O from mom. Got it. Sometimes fingers have a mind of their own.

Thank You for your candor; so why didn't you just come out and say it earlier? You'll rarely offend a type B by telling it like YOU see it, if it should differ from her point of view ;). Soooo, are you telling me that hunter-gatherers might naturally eschew breakfast (I have read that the "hearty breakfast, most important meal of the day" idea was propaganda during Depression days to encourage the consumption of surpluss grains). That wasn't the impression I received from Dr. Wiley's Biobalance. He strictly insists on high purine meat at every meal - dairy and eggs not an acceptable substitute. Will you be modifying this stance in your book?

Sharon


Thank you (NMI)

Posted by Susie on July 28, 1998 at 08:32:23:

In Reply to: Re: RE: avoid list adjustment posted by Robert McFerran on July 27, 1998 at 12:18:53:





Re: RE: avoid list adjustment

Posted by Robert McFerran on July 28, 1998 at 15:57:01:

In Reply to: Re: RE: avoid list adjustment posted by SharonJ on July 27, 1998 at 15:03:10:

Sharon,

I don't think the Hunter-Gatherers will be missing any breakfast in my book. In fact I'll have them eating even less carbohydrate and more fat than what Dr. Wiley suggests.

Dr. George Watson saw that a bit of carbohydrate is needed with every purine/protein/fat rich meal. You see, we all have two primary biochemical cycles used for the production of energy -- one for carbohydrate metabolism and one for protein. They are INTERLOCKING cycles in that one creates a biochemical intermediate that is used by the other. The problem most Hunter-gatherers have with the classic American 'Big' Breakfast is that they eat WAY too much in the way of carbohydrate with it. This overstimulates production of insulin and creates the dramatic fall in blood sugar which stresses the physiology (and makes you feel fatigued).

Obviously there is more at play than just this. Dr. Philpott observed at least 5 different types of hypoglycemia. The most common was the classic 'reactive' hypoglycemia that most physicians are familiar. A sudden rise in blood sugar levels is followed by a precipitous fall after eating the test meal. At the other extreme is flat-line hypoglycemia -- which is just that -- a flat line of blood sugar values after eating. Perhaps this is the transition from hypoglycemia to diabetes. About 5% of type II diabetics were at one time displaying hyper-insulinism, probably followed by pancreatic exhaustion leading to a diabetic blood curve.

Bob


Re: Thanks for your thoughful replys. Time for a new string! NMI

Posted by SharonJ on July 29, 1998 at 10:14:10:

In Reply to: Re: RE: avoid list adjustment posted by Robert McFerran on July 28, 1998 at 15:57:01:

nmi


Blood Type Diets

Posted by Tony A on July 20, 1998 at 13:58:34:

Dr. Stoll,
I was wondering if you have any thoughts concerning tailoring your menu based on what blood type you are. I have been very sick for over a year, and have been on a blood type diet for 3 months now as a last resort. I must admit I have only seen minimal improvement, and that could be just from eating, whole, organic foods, and practicing relaxation techniques. Do you think I should give this diet more of a chance, or am I just wasting my time, and if so, why?
Thanks for the help!

Tony




Re: Blood Type Diets

Posted by Robert McFerran on July 20, 1998 at 23:18:07:

In Reply to: Blood Type Diets posted by Tony A on July 20, 1998 at 13:58:34:

Tony,

To some degree you are wasting your time.

Dr. D'Adamo is correct that there are lectins in some foods that can agglutinate red blood cells -- causing localized and systemic inflammation.

Unfortunately Dr. D'Adamo is incorrect in his thesis that blood type is an indicator of inherited metabolism and therefore the types of food that you should be eating. It might have a positive correlation but that doesn't do you much good if you are one of the many that don't fit this correlation -- does it??

The success of most folks trying Dr. D's diet lies in the fact that they are simply moving to a whole foods diet that has eliminated the major food allergens. These simple recommendations alone will help about 75% of folks feel better. Unfortunately you are in that 25% that demands determining your true inherited metabolic 'type' and eating closely to those specific needs.

If you are game I'll show you how you can determine your best diet.

Bob


I beg to disagree...

Posted by Jenny on July 21, 1998 at 12:40:24:

In Reply to: Re: Blood Type Diets posted by Robert McFerran on July 20, 1998 at 23:18:07:

...although your point that simply moving to a whole foods diet will always improve health, is well-taken. In my case, and many others, we were already following a whole-foods diet, mainly or exclusively vegetarian. The type of diet the "establishment" is now recommending for all of us--low fat, high complex carbs. I had also had comprehensive testing for food allergies, and very few showed up. Yet when I began the blood-type diet for type O, I began to feel better than I had in years. Several longstanding problems have cleared up, AND my lipid profile is better than ever. In fact, my doctor, who is a vegetarian type O and ten years younger than me, said my lipid profile, after 6 months on the type O diet, consuming considerable amounts of organic beef, is better than his! In the presence of serious health problems such as Tony has, one might expect the progress to be slower,especially if one is not following the diet strictly. I feel so good on this diet, though, that I'm not even tempted to indulge in corn-on-the-cob this summer, and that's remarkable for me. I now know the foods that make me feel great and I stick with them. Each person needs to fine-tune the diet to suit their particular biochemistry, which Dr. D'Adamo, I think, encourages people to do.Just thought I'd share my experience.


I'm with Jenny!!

Posted by trish on July 21, 1998 at 13:27:01:

In Reply to: I beg to disagree... posted by Jenny on July 21, 1998 at 12:40:24:

I, too am an O, and have added red meats (organic of course) and more protein in general to my diet. I feel much better, and in fact I think the diet has helped me to get to the root of a couple of other problems that may never have been noticed because I was so bloated from eating so many grains and carbs, trying to be a vegetarian for 6 months, that I was REALLY sluggish and exhausted. Now, with some of my energy back, we are discovering some underlying troubles (candida, adrenal exhaustion, etc...) that actually have led me to this board

Dr. D'Adamo is very clear that the diets are a work in progress, and that they need to be personalized as people learn by trial and error what is best for themselves. He has, however, offered us all a step-up by providing certain known guidelines.

As part of the 3 legged approach to wellness that Dr. Stoll advocates, I think the diets are worth a try. Just remember that if something is obviously not working, change it! I am certain that incorporating Dr. Stoll's philosophy with my type O diet will help ME to get even better!

be well,
trish

p.s. Jenny, I tried one kernel of corn (trying to entice my bird to eat it) and it tasted like CANDY!!


Re: I beg to disagree...

Posted by Robert McFerran on July 21, 1998 at 14:24:08:

In Reply to: I beg to disagree... posted by Jenny on July 21, 1998 at 12:40:24:

Jenny,

I think that you pre-supposed that I was or condoned vegetarianism. NOTHING could be further from the truth. I eat a diet very high in fat, protein and especially PURINES (if you don't know about them you really need to) while severely limiting carbohydrate.

The problem with Dr. D's theory about blood type and metabolism is exposed when you realize that I have a good friend right here on the BB who (like me) has an O blood type. He has found through trial and error (way before Dr. D'Adamo's book) that meat was killing him. He does very well with a low fat/high complex carbo diet. He would do very nicely going completely vegetarian. His name is Walt Stoll.

I on the other hand have just the opposite metabolism. When I went away from the diet I just described that worked well for Dr. Stoll I found IMMEDIATE (less than 4 days) increases in energy and well-being. Like you my bloodwork (especially HDL/LDL ratio) improved while slugging down cholesterol at rates that would give Dr. Stoll a coronary.

I don't think that you could explain why the 'type O' diet would not work for Dr. Stoll. It would be worse to tell him that he only needs to stay with it longer, or take digestive enzymes or all the other weak excuses that I've seen on his BB. The obvious answer is that here are you, I and Dr. Stoll. The three of us all have the same blood type while Dr. Stoll's inherited metabolic needs are RADICALLY different than ours. No amount of 'tinkering' could get the basic 'meat-eating' type O diet to work for Walt.

Bob

p.s. -- If you REALLY want to feel your best I can give you the appropriate diet for your metabolic type (it's the one I eat). I know which one it is since you responded well to the type O diet.


Re: I'm with Jenny!!

Posted by Robert McFerran on July 21, 1998 at 14:44:55:

In Reply to: I'm with Jenny!! posted by trish on July 21, 1998 at 13:27:01:

Trish,

Please read my reply to Jenny.

If you or Jenny or even Dr. D'Adamo could advise an O diet that would be acceptable to our favorite doctor (Dr. Stoll that is -- who happens to be a type O) please let me know. If Walt moved away from his vegetarian fare and toward a 'meat-eater' diet and started to complain of feeling tired, gaining weight, bloodwork worsens, etc., etc. would you tell him to just hang in there, take certain supplements etc.? By the way I see this logic used every day on Dr. D's BB. Wouldn't it be better to realize that perhaps Dr. D's thesis that blood type is indicative of metabolic type doesn't work for 20-25% of the people

You said "Dr. D'Adamo is very clear that the diets are a work in progress, and that they need to be personalized as people learn by trial and error what is best for themselves. He has, however, offered us all a step-up by providing certain known guidelines". I believe that parsing out the limitations of the diet to the extent that you have described above creates such wide gaps that the bucket doesn't hold water any more.

I challenge ANYONE to develop a type O diet that would meet Dr. Stoll's needs. The broadest GUIDELINES of the type O diet would need to be changed to the point where it would resemble the type A diet more that it would the O when you are done.

Do you want to take the challenge?

Bob


Re: I beg to disagree...

Posted by Jenny on July 21, 1998 at 15:12:36:

In Reply to: Re: I beg to disagree... posted by Robert McFerran on July 21, 1998 at 14:24:08:

Bob, thanks for the comments. My main point was to disagree with your comment that the success of the blood-type diet for so many people could be explained by the fact that it steered them to a whole-foods diet. I think it's pretty accurate to say that in the past several years, the medical and nutritional community have been advising a whole-foods diet high in complex carbs and plant-based proteins for everyone. Many people, Dr. Stoll being one of them, do well with this diet, and need look no further. For many of us, though, that whole-foods "healthy" diet was anything but. We found ourselves with lots of problems--digestive disorders, fatigue, brain fog, unwanted weight gain even on a low-fat regimen. It's these seekers, for something besides the "orthodox" health diet who are finding help with the blood-type diet. Many of us are type O. The lectin/blood chemistry explanation may not be the WHOLE story--apparently there can be significant exceptions to it, but I think it's a remarkable contribution to the ongoing process of discovering how to create true health.

You're right, I can't explain why Dr. Stoll, as an O, doesn't do well on meat. But can you explain why when I dropped whole wheat (which extensive testing didn't show an allergy to) and added beef to my diet, I began to get well? Have you posted your diet on this board? I'd like to see how it differs from the "O" type diet I'm following now.


ElectroChemical Individualization

Posted by Greg on July 21, 1998 at 18:20:38:

In Reply to: Re: I'm with Jenny!! posted by Robert McFerran on July 21, 1998 at 14:44:55:

If I may add my observations:

I think that what Jenny is trying to point out and that you,
Robert, may be ignoring is the concept of ElectroChemical
Individualization, which is simply that Walt is not a
statistical "O." Walt probably has various factors which
alter his biochemistry to such a degree as to render the
standard "O" diet unviable. However, it does not mean the
diet itself in invalid. There are exceptions to every rule,
and in this case, these diets are not rules so much as they
are guidelines.

My own personal opinion is that given a healthy body, with
the energy system at 99-110% the whole concept of diet type
becomes moot, with the body able to extract energy from any
food, and to transform any potential poisons into inert
substances which cannot harm the body and can be easily
passed.

Dr. D'Adamo is doing good work to help the 75-80% who are
in desperate need on his program, and the other 20-25%
will have to wait ;-( until the bugs get worked out or
until the individual factors can be mapped to find out why
the guidelines don't apply.


-Greg

(Back up for a few moments)



Re: I beg to disagree...

Posted by Robert McFerran on July 22, 1998 at 00:01:01:

In Reply to: Re: I beg to disagree... posted by Jenny on July 21, 1998 at 15:12:36:

Jenny,

That low fat/high complex carbo diet that EVERYONE was espousing 10 years ago (that gave you digestive disorders, fatigue, brain fog, unwanted weight gain, etc.) was the same diet that gave me chronic fatigue and ultimately led to the development of rheumatoid arthritis. I am CONVINCED that this was the start of all my health problems. WE AGREE!

Dr. D's insight about lectins has added to our knowledge but unfortunately the idea about blood type and metabolism (eating animal based or vegetation based diets) is not. Just think what would happen to all those poor O's that were like Dr. Stoll. Dr. D's recommendations would send them down the road to sickness not health.

I forgot to ask how you were extensively tested for food allergens? The only satisfactory way that I have found is through running a proper elimination diet. I too found that I had a severe sensitivity to wheat (and all other grains for that matter) via the elimination diet. I was tested intradermally, via skin prick, and also with RAST. Two of these tests showed negative for wheat and one showed only mildly positive. So much for even the best tests..... I don't even want to mention the absurd results done by an M.D. who tested via reflexology!

Dr. Rudolph Wiley describes a diet that would probably match your metabolic type well. It has nothing to do with blood type. Metabolic typing is determined by actually testing three diets (each radically different) and determining the one that makes you FEEL the best (usually giving you a dramatic boost in energy level). Doesn't this make more sense than giving someone a diet based on something like blood type and suggesting it is appropriate even though they struggle with it?

Here is just one of Wiley's diets:
RECOMMENDATIONS

Meat, Fish, Poultry:
ALLOWED: Organ meats such as liver, kidneys, brains, sweet- breads, tongue, tripe, etc.; pork ribs, bacon (*); all red meats including venison and veal; lamb; cold cuts (*) of any variety but preferably additive-free; dark meat poultry (either chicken or turkey) such as poultry wings, thighs and drum- sticks, skin may be left on when fried as desired (see methods of preparation below); duck and goose; all darker meat fish and some cold water fish either fresh, frozen or canned (*) such as salmon, dark meat tuna (often labeled as "chunk light") especially when packed in oil, swordfish, dark meat bluefish, mackerel, sardines (*), herrings (*), caviar and salmon roe, all shell fish such as scallops, abalone, oysters, clams and black mussels; escargot/snails; all crustaceans such as shrimp, crab, lobster and crayfish; squid/calamari, octopus; all frankfurters of any variety but preferably additive-free, including chicken franks, beef franks, pork franks, turkey franks and soy/tofu franks (see vegetables below).

AVOID: All light fish (either fresh or frozen) such as scrod, cod, flounder, sole, turbot, perch, haddock and fancy or solid white albacore tuna (*); chicken and turkey breast; lean pork, ham(*).

MEAT, FISH AND POULTRY OF THE ALLOWED VARIETIES
SHOULD BE EATEN AT EVERY MEAL.

* All asterisked items are candida inducing.

Vegetables:
ALLOWED: All leguminous vegetables such as peas, lentils and beans of any variety including tofu (soy bean curd), potatoes especially if fried or buttered to taste (fats will be discussed below), carrots, celery, spinach, cauliflower, artichokes as well as artichoke hearts (artichoke hearts bottled in oil are acceptable) and asparagus. All produce should be fresh and well rinsed to reduce pesticide ingestion. Individuals harboring significant levels of candida may at times be sensitive to insecticides used in agricultural application. Frozen produce may be used occasionally. It is suggested that canned produce (*) be avoided if possible. All gourd/autumnal squashes (*) such as Hokkaido pumpkin, buttercup squash, butternut squash and acorn squash may be eaten sparingly.

Avoid: Lettuce (any variety), tomatoes (any


Re: ElectroChemical Individualization

Posted by Robert McFerran on July 22, 1998 at 00:15:04:

In Reply to: ElectroChemical Individualization posted by Greg on July 21, 1998 at 18:20:38:

Greg,

I am in no way impuning Dr. D'Adamo personally. I've conversed with him several times via Prodigy BB's as well as his own. I simply disagree with his thesis - THAT METABOLISM IS DETERMINED BY BLOOD TYPE. The logic simply doesn't hold. And when it doens't hold I hear stuff like "Walt is not a statistical "O." Walt probably has various factors which alter his biochemistry to such a degree as to render the standard "O" diet unviable" and "we will have to wait until the bugs get worked out or until the individual factors can be mapped to find out why the guidelines don't apply".

How about just realizing that the guidelines are wrong since they are based on a wrong assumption??

You said "My own personal opinion is that given a healthy body, with the energy system at 99-110% the whole concept of diet type becomes moot, with the body able to extract energy from any food, and to transform any potential poisons into inert substances which cannot harm the body and can be easily passed".

I'm afraid this is a bit fanciful. There is plenty of research to show that diet has never been moot. In fact, only now (with the help of folks like Dr. D'Adamo) are we beginning to rediscover just how important it is for health after all. The most powerful and compelling work however was the research done by Dr. Weston Price at the turn of the century. I strongly suggest that you check out his book from your local library - NUTRITION AND PHYSICAL DEGENERATION. It will change your views on diet forever.

Bob


Re: I'm with Jenny!!

Posted by trish on July 22, 1998 at 10:12:44:

In Reply to: Re: I'm with Jenny!! posted by Robert McFerran on July 21, 1998 at 14:44:55:

robert,

I did not intend to make you angry by agreeing with Jenny. I was simply stating my own experience with the diet, which has been for the most part very successful. I also believe what she said about fine tuning the diet beyond the mere whole foods aspect that you brought up.

And, no I would not advise anyone who is feeling tired, gaining weight and had worsening bloodwork to stick with their current diet and depend on supplements. If you have seen this on the D'Adamo board, it wasn't posted by me. I'm sure you know of Aaron Weiland - who is of course a very non-typical A type. People are learning there, too. You obviously disagree with D'Adamo's theories, and I am not going to try to change your mind.

It seems to me that the 20-25 percent number you say are exceptions is high. Where did you come by that number?

I am not a dietician, Robert, I am simply someone who is trying to learn to be healthier, and hopefully share some of my own experiences with people who have questions. I am not up for any extra challenges right now, so as far as developing a new diet for Dr. Stoll, I just can't - but thanks for the offer.

Be well,
trish



Re: I beg to disagree...

Posted by Walt Stoll on July 22, 1998 at 11:41:58:

In Reply to: Re: I beg to disagree... posted by Robert McFerran on July 22, 1998 at 00:01:01:

Hi, Bob & Jenny.

I hope everyone follows your discussion here. It is wonderful. People are just too different for any one approach to fit all. However, it is discussions like yours that helps the interested person to get onto the path to nutritional enlightenment (for themselves).

I can see the earliest glimmerings of lab tests that can help people decide which diet is most likely to be THEIR diet. Eventually (at the present rate within about 15 years) we will likely be able to predict what is best for an individual BEFORE their trying it. However, for now, I have to agree with Bob about the elimination/provocation approach being the most accurate.

Namaste` to you both!

Walt



Re: ElectroChemical Individualization

Posted by Walt Stoll on July 22, 1998 at 11:48:07:

In Reply to: Re: ElectroChemical Individualization posted by Robert McFerran on July 22, 1998 at 00:15:04:

Dear Et AL,

I think we would all agree that Peter has a point but that it does not include all people and, as such is not a perfect theory.

I predict that everything I have read that all of you are saying has truth. Eventually, it will be by combining all of this that we will come to a better theory that fits more people.

Even the physicists are looking for the "Grand Unification Theory". A diet for all humans will be at least as hard to find.

Namaste` to you all.

Walt



this is very interesting....

Posted by trish on July 22, 1998 at 12:15:21:

In Reply to: Re: I beg to disagree... posted by Robert McFerran on July 22, 1998 at 00:01:01:

Bob,

Is your suggestion to eliminate the avoids from the bloodtype diets IN ADDITION TO the avoids for the diet you posted? For instance, for the Type O diet, Plums are considered highly beneficial...but your post says they should be avoided. I am interested in learning more about this.

trish


Re: I'm with Jenny!!

Posted by Robert McFerran on July 22, 1998 at 12:51:21:

In Reply to: Re: I'm with Jenny!! posted by trish on July 22, 1998 at 10:12:44:

Trish,

I'm very pleased that Dr. D'Adamo's O diet has happened to fit the metabolism that you inherited - but it was luck more than anything else that you responded in a positive way and not in a manner like Aaron Wieland (a meat-eating individual that happens to have type A blood). I happened to come across Aaron when I was scanning Dr. D's boards. The poor guy was having a dreadful time with the "A" diet even though that was his blood type. He was desperately fatigued. He was looking for help from others and all that I saw were suggestions that he needed to stay with the program for at least 3 months, that he needed to take certain supplements and give himself 'support' for different organ systems via different herbal remedies.

I immediately recognized that he had inherited a 'hunter-gather' metabolic type rather than the Agriculturist fare prescribed for blood type A's by D'Adamos's book. You see I have needed to do extensive research on diet for my book and I was very excited when Peter's book first came out. However I immediately saw where blood type did not infer metabolism. My father (who is a type O like myself) is a type II diabetic. When he eats in an agriculturist fashion (what Dr. D would suggest for a blood type A) his cholesterol and blood pressure drops, his energy increases, and his weight normalizes. His need for insulin DRAMATICALLY drops. When he tried the type O diet he noticed an immediate drop in energy, insulin demand increased precipitously as well as blood pressure. I immediately took him off of the O diet (much to his chagrin). You see my dad LOVES to eat steak and other meats. He had eaten like that the first 48 years of his life and it brought him a coronary and subsequent triple by-pass as well as hypertension and the afore mentioned diabetes.

I subsequently contacted a nurse at a nearby hospital that was one of the few sites that was running Dr. Dean Ornish's program. I asked her if she would share the distribution of different blood types that were having success with Ornish's very low fat vegetarian diet. Obviously all these folks had severe coronary and vascular disease. One might predict that because they were all doing well with a diet that most closely resembled a D'Adamo blood type A diet AND the fact that they were suffering from coronary disease that this specific population of patients would be predominantly blood type A. Guess what? They were not. There was an equally large percentage of O's.

I communicated my findings to Dr. D on his board and he suggested that the reason the O's (who should not be candidates for coronary disease) were indeed having severe coronary disease was due to their grain eating. This would throw things out of whack and ultimately create the clogged arteries, very high cholesterol, triglyceride and blood pressure numbers. I also asked why so many O's were doing GREAT on the A diet? Seems to me that they would fare poorly if his thesis was true. He didn't answer this question.

To debunk the grain thing I started contacting arthritis folks with type O blood that had eliminated grains to find if they were all doing best with a meat-eater diet proposed by Dr. D. They were not. About 85% of the men needed to eat a light diet and the remaining 15% were definately in the meat-eater category. These were also the general percentages for men with blood type A.

I found that 50% of the women did well with 'heavier type O-like diet fare' while the other 50% could be happy vegetarians. Once again -- blood type had little impact.
What this means is that the 20-25% exceptions that I quoted in my previous post are actually much higher for men and a bit lower for women. In other words Eat Right for Your Type suggests that 40% of the male population (that which is type O) should be eating a hunter-gather type O diet -- while in reality 85% of men SHOULD be eating a vegetarian-like diet. You can see where the mismatch is larger than for women. I'll let you do the m


Re: this is very interesting....

Posted by Robert McFerran on July 22, 1998 at 13:15:28:

In Reply to: this is very interesting.... posted by trish on July 22, 1998 at 12:15:21:

Trish,

Yes. You would do well to avoid the plums.

I have found that you can 'cheat' with the metabolic diets a bit by eating small portions of avoid foods -- usually with the evening meal. This would mean that you could have an occassional plum (only one) at the end of dinner.

HOWEVER you should NEVER eat a plum alone as a snack.

To fine tune things you should experiment with increasing fat intake (i.e. -- by eating fatty cuts of meat like rib steak rather than round steak) and severely limiting carbos. These is a balance that you will find.

Bob


I beg to agree...

Posted by Robert McFerran on July 22, 1998 at 13:30:51:

In Reply to: Re: I beg to disagree... posted by Walt Stoll on July 22, 1998 at 11:41:58:

Walt,

Dr. Wiley would suggest that he already has found a parameter that could be measured by blood work -- blood plasma pH. Unfortunatley the reading has to be taken within 15 minutes after blood draw AND the pH meter needs to be sensitive to 1/100th of a pH unit.

A machine able to do this would cost about $600 and for that reason no physicians have them in their office. I have independently confirmed the blood pH phenomenon -- only through access to a hospitals laboratory and their equipment.

I think that I can guess someones general metabolic identity about 90% of the time by asking a series of psychographic questions and looking at some bloodwork values. In the end however the ONLY way to know if what you are doing is working is to try multiple diets and as you aptly put it 'listen to your body'.

Bob


Re: Blood Type Diets

Posted by Todd Moody on July 22, 1998 at 22:01:45:

In Reply to: Blood Type Diets posted by Tony A on July 20, 1998 at 13:58:34:

In this dialogue, Robert McFerran has made an important point: D'Adamo's blood type diet is based on not one but two theories. The first is that lectins have different effects on different blood types. This appears to be true, although the links to specific health issues are not yet clear in many cases. The other theory is the metabolism/meat tolerance theory, according to which type As have low tolerance for animal protein while type Os have high tolerance. This is not about lectins. As far as I can determine, it is based on two things: differences in stomach acid levels and differences in alkaline phophatase levels. Type As allegedly have lower levels of both, which is supposed to make it harder for them to digest meats properly.

But in his lecture notes, also published on the web site, Dr. D. cites research that shows that wheat germ agglutinin bind to gastrin-secreting cells in the stomach. So it's quite possible that stomach acid levels are themselves affected by lectins more than blood type.

I am one of those type As who seems to need a good amount of meat in the diet. I note that a significant number of contributors to the 'A' board say that they need to incorporate "Zone principles" (i.e., restricted carbs) to achieve weight loss and energy. Initially, Dr. D. was quite critical of the low-carb approach, claiming that it ignored the causes of the problem, but so many type As seem to need this that he appears to have relented.


Re: Blood Type Diets

Posted by Robert McFerran on July 22, 1998 at 23:33:21:

In Reply to: Re: Blood Type Diets posted by Todd Moody on July 22, 1998 at 22:01:45:

Todd,

There is even more to consider.

At one time PERHAPS blood type did indicate metabolic type -- but this occurred only in groups of people that were isolated from other gene pools.

For example the American Indians living on the western plains at one time ALL had O blood type. They also ALL had dark hair and brown eyes as well as a hunter-gatherer (meat-eater) metabolism.

At the same time there were Gaelics living on the Outer Hebrides of what is now Scotland. Their gene pool was also very poor since the violent seas surrounding them didn't allow an influx of new people and new genes. They ALL had blue eyes, fair skin and blood type O. They also happened to have a hunter-gather metabolism.

What happens when these genetically pure groups get an infusion of other blood types (which happen to have different metabolic types)? What happens as successive generations 'mix'? Things like a blue eyed child being born to parents that both have brown eyes becomes a possibility. In the same way metabolism is no longer tied blood type -- even though it might have been at one time.

The genetic mixing that we see today is simply unprecedented in the history of man. Dr. Wiley saw that this mixing is probably responsible for the phenomenon of metabolic cycling amoung pre-menstrual women. Here they would actually have different metabolic needs at different parts of their cycle. Do these women actually exist? Just ask them if they see a tremendous increase in symptom severity at different times of their cycle. Some will say no (they don't cycle) -- but an increasing number will say yes -- but for some it will be pre-menstrually, some post mensturally and still others will say the worst time is during their menses.

By the way, men can change too -- but only at the transition from adolescence to puberty, and then again at the cessation of growth (usually in the early 20's). Genetic mixing forces me to keep a very open mind when looking at the dietary phenomenon that we are observing today in comparison to that of only a couple of hundred years ago.

Bob

Bob


Too many variables

Posted by Todd Moody on July 23, 1998 at 09:41:22:

In Reply to: Re: Blood Type Diets posted by Robert McFerran on July 22, 1998 at 23:33:21:

Your point illustrates the larger point that there are too many variables to permit workarea priori* generalizations about diet. That some lectins have different effects on different blood types is not in doubt. That blood types are correlated with different risk for certain diseases is also fairly clear. But the correlation is far from perfect, and that in itself is a large hint that blood type tells only part of the story. Furthermore, there are many more blood antigens than the ABO antigens. I understand that D'Adamo's reason for emphasizing these is that they are not limited to blood cells but are present in other tissues as well. That makes ABO antigens more pervasive than other "true" blood antigens, but it doesn't alter the fact that the other antigens are there are affected by lectins in other ways. The mere fact that some lectins cause hemagglutination is not in itself sufficient to be a health concern. This is a normal process and the macrophages should handle it without incident.
That's their job.

I'd like to see lots more research on the lectin effects. As for metabolic types, there is nothing like direct experience. Those of us who have lost substantial amounts of weight and enjoyed better energy levels by reducing carbs do not need further persuasion that this is the way we should go.

I believe that wheat lectin makes insulin resistance worse, but I'm sure it's not the whole story. When I tried the wheat-free A diet, which is high in carbs, I promptly regained 15 pounds.


Re: I beg to agree...

Posted by Walt Stoll on July 23, 1998 at 10:18:18:

In Reply to: I beg to agree... posted by Robert McFerran on July 22, 1998 at 13:30:51:

Hi, Bob.

By the way, I am learning from your wonderful posts and the discussion based on them. I hope many others take the time to read them carefully.

I agree with you (and Dr Wiley) that he is onto something. Perhaps the instrument will get less expensive. I know that many of the "simple" instruments I had to get to go beyond my MD paradigm were in that range of cost. However, many of them were $3-10,000 as well. Of course, I ended up putting everything I made into patient service. As a consequence, I did not have the money to defend myself from the harassments of the Medical Licensing Board.

If you have been watching the progress of Fox Hollow, right there in your home area, you can soon see the value of having lots of money to protect yourself from the board. They started out doing exactly what I was doing & have progressed far beyond into offerings that even I think of as fringe. However Mary (their owner & producer) is a Billionaire with "old money connections". If they attack HER, they will have a tiger by the tail and they know it.

I believe the motivation of the doc is the determining factor, not the cost. $600 doesn't seem much to me once I know of the value of Dr Wiley's discovery.

Namaste` Walt



Re: Blood Type Diets

Posted by Tony A on July 23, 1998 at 13:01:50:

In Reply to: Re: Blood Type Diets posted by Todd Moody on July 22, 1998 at 22:01:45:

I am new to this blood type diet stuff, and am a patient of the elder D'Adamo. I have only had minimal success, and am starting to have some doubts. I agree with most of your points, although Dr. D'Adamo does now use sub-typing. I am considered a type A with strong B tendencies, and therefore he has me eating meat.

Overall, I am still confused, and would just like to find the best diet plan so that I can get on the road to wellness. I assume you wouldn't say this is the one.

Thanks for the info.

Tony A



Re: Too many variables

Posted by Robert McFerran on July 23, 1998 at 13:21:03:

In Reply to: Too many variables posted by Todd Moody on July 23, 1998 at 09:41:22:

Todd,

More good stuff. Thanks!

It is interesting that the foods that reacted with my O blood type were already eliminated from my diet years before I heard about Dr. D's lectin theory. I caught most of them by running a good elimination diet -- similar to the one that I've described several times here on this board.

Having said that I've also found that some lectins do not produce a 'hyper-acute' response -- so it would elude detection during the elimination diet. I've found that only after repetitive ingestion (within a brief period of 2-3 days) of certain lectins will they accumulate in tissues and create an inflammatory response.

Lot's of variables. I appreciate your point that blood type is no longer linked metabolism. It's almost like saying that blood type and eye color are linked. They might have been at one time but genetic mixing is running us aground onto new ground.

I've attempted to find the origins (with some success) of various foods. In the end I'm finding that through analyzing lectins, running elimination diets, and metabolic diets and listening to our bodies along the ways that we are approximating what our ancestors had -- a diet that was truly built for them -- and the exuberant health that went along with it.

Question of the day. Potatoes are indigenous to what area of the world?

The answer might suprise the Irish. They were found only in southern north american until brought back to Northern Europe some 250 years ago. The people of northern europe could not be well adapted to this 'new' food.

Bob


Re: Blood Type Diets

Posted by Robert McFerran on July 23, 1998 at 13:24:23:

In Reply to: Re: Blood Type Diets posted by Tony A on July 23, 1998 at 13:01:50:

Tony,

Since this thread is getting pretty far down why don't you start a new thread with a subject like -- What diet would work best for me?

I'll jump in.

Bob


Re: Too many variables

Posted by Todd Moody on July 23, 1998 at 18:28:28:

In Reply to: Re: Too many variables posted by Robert McFerran on July 23, 1998 at 13:21:03:

Ireland is one of the places where the agricultural revolution arrived late. The transition to agriculture was not complete when the Romans invaded, only some 2,000 years ago. This alone suggests that Irish people are likely to have difficulties with agricultural diets. Their traditional diet was typical hunter/gatherer, with a strong emphasis on seafoods.

The potato was a "junk" food introduced into Ireland by the British so that they could have more of the more valuable crops of the Irish soil.

Let them eat spuds.




EXACTLY !!

Posted by Robert McFerran on July 23, 1998 at 20:46:55:

In Reply to: Re: Too many variables posted by Todd Moody on July 23, 1998 at 18:28:28:





Re: I'm with Jenny!!

Posted by NANCY on July 24, 1998 at 21:04:00:

In Reply to: Re: I'm with Jenny!! posted by Robert McFerran on July 22, 1998 at 12:51:21:

Robert

I'm one of those Type A's who does much better on a high protein, low carb diet. When I converted to that, I lost 12-14 lbs, lost the bloating and gas, and got more energy. I still have LGS and probably candida, but I'm working on my relaxation, eating as much whole foods as possible, and taking supplements. I do expect to get better in 6-12 months.

I had fibroid tumors, which eventually led to a hysterectomy. Frankly, getting all that out (my ovaries were already atrophied), has been a blessing to me, knowing that I don't ever have to worry about getting cancer in any of those organs. Perhaps if I'd read this BB before my surgery, I would have waited to see if the bleeding stopped, though.

BTW, have you read SUGAR BUSTERS! ? The way they explain the insulin connection as it relates to weight gain is very interesting. My diet is very similar to that, except that I do eat carrots, and I don't eat artificial sweeteners, among other things. When is your book due out? Soon, I hope!

Nancy





Re: I'm with Jenny!!

Posted by Robert McFerran on July 25, 1998 at 13:04:00:

In Reply to: Re: I'm with Jenny!! posted by NANCY on July 24, 1998 at 21:04:00:

Nancy,

All my work and research about diet has revolved around one fairly simple goal -- and that is to approximate what my ancestors were eating when then they exhibited exuberant health. Reading Dr. Weston Price's book -- Nutrition and Physical Degeneration left quite a mark on me and a better understanding of how our ancestors could not only have survived but THRIVED without dentists and other physicians not to mention the mass of pharmacological remedies (drugs) that we rely on so heavily today.

I've done quite a bit of research in the area of anthropology in an attempt to better understand how some of human nutritional diversity unfolded. What I am left with now is that it really is impossible to know EXACTLY what would be someone's best diet. Too much genetic mixing -- especially during the last 100 years. That leaves us with trying to best approximate what will work for us. In my book I am suggesting:

A) Run a six day elimination diet to remove probable food allergens.

B) Add foods from your appropriate metabolic diet one by one -- testing them to be sure there is no sensitivity.

C) Avoid certain lectin containing foods based on your blood type.

All along the way you have to listen to your body to tell you what to do -- but in the end I'm confident that the work you exert to compile your very individualized diet will serve you better than anything that we know of -- yet ;).

I have read Sugar Busters and while I agree generally with the thesis it makes the mistake of not completely understanding the metabolic diversity that is in play. Of course all the dietary recommendations I suggest (out of necessity) are whole foods.

I thought that I would have my book to a publisher by now. Guess again I guess!! Hopefully when this nice weather goes away I'll buckle down so I can have it out early next year. Thanks for the interest.

Bob


I'm not with anyone anymore. I just want to learn.

Posted by Greg on July 26, 1998 at 09:07:21:

In Reply to: Re: I'm with Jenny!! posted by Robert McFerran on July 25, 1998 at 13:04:00:

OK Robert,

Assuming that Peter D'Adamo doesn't have it quite right (although a
success rate of 75-80% is pretty high for something that
doesn't work), what is the deciding factor or factors which
determine what is a "good" diet?

How does bloodtype, metabolic rate, metabolic type and gene
purity (if there is such a thing) combine or not combine to
determine what I should or should not be eating?

-Greg



Re: I'm with Jenny!!

Posted by Walt Stoll on July 26, 1998 at 09:42:11:

In Reply to: Re: I'm with Jenny!! posted by Robert McFerran on July 25, 1998 at 13:04:00:

Hi, Bob.

In MY experience, one can plan on at least a year longer to get a book published than one reasonably thinks it "should" be.

Do you have the date of publishing, and the publisher, for Price's book? I used to have it & have lost it. Also, if you know of the most recent edition????

I recommend it to people but am lost when I need to tell them the above.

Thanks, Walt



Re: I'm with Jenny!!

Posted by Robert McFerran on July 26, 1998 at 14:10:43:

In Reply to: Re: I'm with Jenny!! posted by Walt Stoll on July 26, 1998 at 09:42:11:

Walt,

I'll have to get back to you on this one. I've got a friend that has my personal copy of Dr. Price's book right now.

I know that there is a Price-Pottenger Foundation that has even more information on the work of Dr. Price and Dr. Pottenger (of cat study fame). They have a web site and Kirk Morgan tells me that he has their phone number. I really need to give them a call and see if I can extract anything else in this area.

Bob


Re: I'm not with anyone anymore. I just want to learn.

Posted by Robert McFerran on July 26, 1998 at 14:55:21:

In Reply to: I'm not with anyone anymore. I just want to learn. posted by Greg on July 26, 1998 at 09:07:21:

Greg,

Walt said it best in his book when he uses the quote "Standing on the shoulders of Giants".

The context of his remark is that he has sought to not focus as much on what previous 'Giants' in medicine CONCLUDED with their work BUT rather to look at what they OBSERVED. Walt, having the perspective of hindsight along with new research or research that the 'Giant' was unaware of -- allowed Dr. Stoll to synthesize new ideas or look at them in a different way.

The truth of the matter is that I've done the same thing. I'm a 'knock-off artist' if you will that has looked closely at what each 'Giant' has observed -- and have combined their observations to create something that works as closely to 100% of the time as possible.

So you see Peter D'Adamo, along with Dean Ornish, George Watson, Rudolph Wiley, Walt Stoll, Roger Williams and a long list of others are the 'Giants' here -- I am standing on their shoulders trying only to understand why and how they arrived at their conclusions. You might be surprised to know that none of the giants that I've just listed were aware of ALL the published work done by the other giants. If you read ALL the giants work you might initially see conflict with what they concluded. But if you back up a bit and focus on what they observed you will see that many were seeing the same thing but just didn't know what it was at the time.

Having said all that I'll try to answer your questions specifically.

Blood type does not determine metabolic type. If you use blood type to determine what you should eat you are relying on luck.

The deciding factor in what you should be GENERALLY eating should be based on testing 3 radically different metabolic diets and going with the one that gives you the most energy. In order to effectively test the metabolic diets all major food allergens should be pulled out of your diet (via an elimination diet) beforehand. Lectin containing foods that interfere with your specific blood type should also be withdrawn. This will yield your best diet and is not based on luck.

I'm never used the term 'metabolic rate' since it creates confusion. I'd suggest you and others discard it when trying to understand metabolism. Hunter-gatherers will have optimized burn, 'metabolic rate' and energy level if they are eating the proper diet. Agriculturists will have the same if they eat the appropriate diet. Too often I will hear someone say that they have a very fast metabolic rate which is their way of saying that they can eat a lot of 'heavy' fatty foods and still stay thin. They are fortunate to have landed upon a diet that matched their inherited metabolic type. Meanwhile a person that has trouble with weight gain is said to have a slow metabolic rate. Nothing could be further from the truth. The problem is that they've been UNLUCKY enough to eat a diet mismatched to their metabolic type.

Gene purity holds little importance unless there was NO or very little genetic mixing in a group of people for say the last 5,000 years. If we could go back a couple of hundred years there were many pockets of indigenous people that would fit this bill. They would simply do best to eat the same diet their parents did. With the rapid genetic mixing (note I'm not saying racial mixing or anything like that) that we've experienced during the last 200 years we cannot stay well by simply eating the diets our parents ate.

In the words of Clint Eastwood -- "You just have to ask yourself one question -- do you feel lucky?" I believe the question of what you should eat shouldn't be left to luck.




Re: Giants

Posted by CyberMage on July 26, 1998 at 17:03:10:

In Reply to: Re: I'm not with anyone anymore. I just want to learn. posted by Robert McFerran on July 26, 1998 at 14:55:21: