Metabolic Type and ER4YT Diets historical posts August 1998

Re: Rob, it 's me again...

Posted by Robert McFerran on August 01, 1998 at 12:02:36:

Linda,

You DO have to pick your spots during the movie when you can chew on that carrot!

If I have a movie date I always tell them beforehand when I'm packing meat. Of course I'm always enough of a Hunter-Gather gentleman to ask if I can bring some for them.......

Bob


Re: Rob, it 's me again...

Posted by Linda on August 02, 1998 at 11:40:48:

In Reply to: Re: Rob, it 's me again... posted by Robert McFerran on August 01, 1998 at 12:02:36:


Robert,

Maybe after your book hits the Bestseller List, movie theaters will offer bags of buttered rib-eye, although wouldn't popcorn be considered a whole food?

I'm having a problem on the MIXED diet. I feel uncomfortably warm all the time. This is strange for me because I have Raynaud's and was always cold. If somebody touches my skin they say, Oh my gosh, you feel so hot! I took my temperature and it is only 98.2. The heat even keeps me up at night and I feel like my dinner is coming up instead of digesting. I was thinking maybe I'm not used to eating that much meat. I have never in my life eaten meat with every meal. Maybe I just need to move more slowly into the MIXED diet as maybe I don't have the digestive enzymes from not eating alot of meat. Actually, the warming thing is kind of neat as I was pretty sick o f being cold all the time.

Linda


Re: Rob, it 's me again...

Posted by Robert McFerran on August 02, 1998 at 12:03:06:

In Reply to: Re: Rob, it 's me again... posted by Linda on August 02, 1998 at 11:40:48:

Linda,

In my experiences with indigestion it's usually due to eating TOO MUCH of the carbohydrate foods (especially starchy ones)and not due to all this business about enzyme insufficiency (although that does sound good). Of course it could also come from hidden food allergies or lectin containing foods that create havoc with your blood type.

I sometimes get a bit of indigestion to when I eat too fast (I'm always telling my 3 years old nephew to CHEW his meat and not just swallow it -- I should take the same advise). Also I try to have a relaxed atmosphere where I eat. You can see the obvious tie-ins that good digestion has with skilled relaxation. Bracing makes for poor digestion

I don't have any ideas on the warmth other than the fact that before I ate this diet (even though I had been doing the skilled relaxation consistently for 9 months) I was constantly cold. I didn't have Raynaud's but my hands were always cold. It was almost ridiculous since it could literally be in the 90's and I would be a bit cold. I also didn't sweat.

Now my hands are NEVER cold and as I add more weight I am getting better at tolerating cold winters. I also sweat.

Bob


Re: Rob, it 's me again...

Posted by Linda on August 03, 1998 at 07:50:15:

In Reply to: Re: Rob, it 's me again... posted by Robert McFerran on August 02, 1998 at 12:03:06:


Thanks Bob. I'm a little confused about how you feel about the bloodtype/lectins. I was on Dr. D's diet for quite awhile and didn't get worse, but really didn't improve. However, I did find out that I can't eat tomatoes and wheat. As of today I'm switching for soy milk for a week or two to see if milk is a problem as I got used to drinking alot of it on the diet for type B. I've been eating chicken which is bad for B's, and feel great after I eat it.

What also is confusing is that I noticed improvement in my excess stomach acid with the MIXED diet. According to Prescription for Nutritional Healing (James and Phyllis Balch), pretty much all the foods under primary would be avoids for acidosis. They suggest eating citrus to become alkaline. I noticed on the H-G diet there is nothing that would give you adequate vitamin C. I noted a few years ago that vitamin C really aggravated my autoimmune disease (rheumatic type).

I guess I don't understand the acid alkaline thing. Could a person's blood be alkaline and there stomach be acidic? I'm going to the library today to look for Nutrition and Your Mind by George Watson, you know, do a little research myself, so I don't have to ask so many questions. I find you and your book fascinating.

Linda

P.S. I've been practicing Thi Chi. Maybe the excess warmth is because I unblocked some chi. I sure hope so.


Re: Rob, it 's me again...

Posted by Robert McFerran on August 03, 1998 at 12:41:50:

In Reply to: Re: Rob, it 's me again... posted by Linda on August 03, 1998 at 07:50:15:

Linda,

You've hit upon one of the big reasons why Dr. Wiley's BioBalance didn't get much play in the Alternative Medicine world. It was very much confused with the existing acid/alkaline theories used by other Alternative Medicine practicioners. I just posted Susie who basically was asking the same question.

She was considering 'alkaline' in the context of the way it has been used by Naturopathic practicioners. This has
NOTHING to do with the acid/alkaline balance that Dr. Wiley describes in BioBalance.

Dr. Watson and Wiley found that there was an optimal BLOOD PLASMA pH that was the product of biochemical metabolic
yields. Each different metabolic type would have the same blood plasma pH IF they were eating the diet appropriate for their inherited metabolic type.

Could a person's blood be alkaline and their stomach be acidic? YES! There is no association between these two variables.

I think that specific lectins are trouble makers for specific blood types. Unfortunately I have trouble getting from Dr. D'Adamo what specific foods he tested against certain blood types and what foods he was excluding due to he and his father's anecdotal observations.

Since wheat and tomato are MAJOR food allergens -- it doesn't surprise me that LOTS of folks do better on the D'Adamo diet simply due to the fact that they are eliminating a major food allergen.

Run the elimination diet and then test foods from your metabolic diet. That will get the results you seek. As you know I do suggest that some lectin containing foods also be eliminated based on blood type. Those are the lecin containing foods that I'm pretty sure that Peter has physically tested rather than just anecdotally observed.

Bob




Where did Hunter-Gatherers get their Vitamin C??

Posted by Robert McFerran on August 03, 1998 at 13:21:16:

In Reply to: Re: Rob, it 's me again... posted by Linda on August 03, 1998 at 07:50:15:

Linda,

Most of the stuff in Prescription for Nutritional Healing (James and Phyllis Balch) will work well for Agriculturist metabolic types and actually hurt you. The reason is that 85% of men are Agriculturists. This maked the Hunter-Gatherer a minority. In other words the things that would work for my Agriculturist friend (Walt Stoll) would probably, at best do nothing for me. At worst it would be detrimental. The classic example is garlic. All things being equal it will help Agriculturists normalize but will exacerbate Hunter-gatherer symptoms.

As you probably already know, humans are one of the few mammals that do not produce their own vitamin C. The great majority of animals make their own and store it in their organ meats. Hunter-gatherers would get some vitamin C from root vegetables (like parsnips) but got the majority of it from organ meats.

In fact when the first British military expeditions were exploring the South Pole they were plagued by sickness of their officers. Without exception all officers that were relocated to this arctic site would become ill within 3 months. None of the enlisted men were effected -- they seemed to be immune no matter how long they were posted there. Time and hindsight show that the problem revolved around the fact that the officers were only served steak (only the best cuts of meat were reserved for the officers). Little vitamin C is stored in the muscle meats. At the same time the enlisted men were served the vitamin rich organ meats as well as the muscle meats.

Another instance showing that we are best adapted to WHOLE foods -- whole plant or the whole animal. Ten years from now we'll find that there are other important nutrients in things like liver that we are unaware of today.

We talk nutrition in terms of protein, fat and carbohydrate but any HUNTER-GATHERER knows that purines are also a key ingredient for their metabolism.

Bob





Re: Rob, it 's me again...

Posted by Linda on August 03, 1998 at 19:39:56:

In Reply to: Re: Rob, it 's me again... posted by Robert McFerran on August 03, 1998 at 12:41:50:

Ok Robert, I think I have it figured out. I now know my blood is too alkaline. This would make sense as to why I have Raynaud's because as blood becomes more alkaline, more calcium enters the nerve and muscle cells. This causes them to respond too quickly. It causes overstimulation of the nervous system. THANKS!

I'm curious, do you exercise at all. Would vigorous exercise make the blood more alkaline?

You've been a great help to me, I can't thank you enough.

Linda


Re: Rob, it 's me again...

Posted by Robert McFerran on August 03, 1998 at 22:55:48:

In Reply to: Re: Rob, it 's me again... posted by Linda on August 03, 1998 at 19:39:56:

Linda,

I'm sorry but I can't confirm your conclusion about why you have Raynaud's. How do you know that "as blood becomes more alkaline, more calcium enters the nerve and muscle cells"? Am I missing something?

The blood pH thing comes into play when slight deviations (>.02 pH units) above OR below normal alter enzymatic activity that is equally sensitive to variation in pH. If alkalinity was the only problem the only folks that would get Raynaud's would be Agriculturist metabolic types. I have folks that I've worked with that are Hunter-Gatherers (with overly acidic blood plasma) that have Raynaud's too.

I have been impressed by studies showing that folks doing skilled relaxation via biofeedback have been successful in increasing skin temperatures and blood flow to the fingers. I think that this gives strong creedence to the theory of hypothalamic overload resulting in chronic bracing and subsequent loss of blood flow not only to the extremities but also to the gut.

Bob


Re: Rob, it 's me again...

Posted by Linda on August 04, 1998 at 08:59:25:

In Reply to: Re: Rob, it 's me again... posted by Robert McFerran on August 03, 1998 at 22:55:48:


Robert,

Oh boy, I'l try to make a long story short, starting with my personal experience. Nine months ago I did biofeedback for my Raynaud's. As soon as I learned to slow down my breathing I was able to control my Raynaud's. By becoming aware of my body I realized I was bracing almost all the time, plus clamping my teeth together.

I've been reading about Wilder Penfield (expert on epilepsy and neurosurgeon). He states that vasoconstriction causes Raynaud's (I think we know that). Hyperventilation leads to constricted blood vessels. Rapid breathing excites the brain cells. This is what causes the blood to be come more alkaline, thus calcium enters the nerve and muscle cells, and then they react more quickly and strongly. This also results in feelings of nervousness and contraction of muscles. The sympathetic nervous system becomes excited, thus the fight or flight response is activated AND that is why biofeedback works for Raynaud's (at least the form that I have).

Robert, this is getting a little deep for me. I probably have average intelligence at my best, but you know how all of a sudden things just start to click and you just KNOW you are on the right track? I also used to get muscular twitching, which would also be from the blood being too alkaline. I do believe there are alot of studies on hyperventilation and blood alkalinity.

Something interesting is that since I've been on the MIXED diet my nighttime bruxism has stopped.

Linda


Re: Rob, it 's me again...

Posted by Robert McFerran on August 04, 1998 at 13:11:17:

In Reply to: Re: Rob, it 's me again... posted by Linda on August 04, 1998 at 08:59:25:

Linda,

Thanks for the explaination. It's obvious to me that you know a LOT more about Raynaud's and the research done in this area than I do.

Of course getting results is the key and it sounds as if you are on track.

Bob


Re: Where did Hunter-Gatherers get their Vitamin C??

Posted by Walt Stoll on August 04, 1998 at 20:34:13:

In Reply to: Where did Hunter-Gatherers get their Vitamin C?? posted by Robert McFerran on August 03, 1998 at 13:21:16:

Hi, Bob!

As usual, highly accurate & informative. I could not have said it as well.

HOWEVER, I would like to add one concept not directly addressed by the question:

The need for vitamin C is directly related to the amount of stress to which the animal is exposed. Although, the average norway rat makes about 5000 milligrams of vitamin C/day (as calculated for an average #150 human) when in the wilds, when that same rat is exposed to the conditions in the average city dump it suddenly makes an average of 25,000 milligrams a day.

It has been calculated that the average human in this culture needs at least 5000 miligrams of vitamin C every day to cope with the average stress level in this culture. Two hundred years ago that need was more like 500 milligrams---for optimum health.

The RDAs (currently being abandoned by the powers that be) were calculated on the basis of how much a human had to have to stay alive: if the person was alive s/he was perfectly healthy. NOW, these standards are finally being calculated on the basis of "what is the amount of any nutrient for optimum health--certainly a much more rational standard.

The point is that we, today, need many times as much vitamin C a day as the average human did 200 years ago. It is likely that those humans who knew enough not to eat only steak, could get enough for reasonable health from a healthy diet at that time.

Try getting 5000 milligrams a day today without a supplement. Of course, that segment of our society that study after study says knows the least about nutrition (the MDs) have been pushing a bill to make it illegal for anyone to manufacture any vitamin C tablet with more than 100 milligrams in it. Any larger pill will have to be "by prescription only". Go figure!

Thanks, Bob! Walt



Re: Rob, it 's me again...

Posted by Linda on August 04, 1998 at 21:03:59:

In Reply to: Re: Rob, it 's me again... posted by Robert McFerran on August 04, 1998 at 13:11:17:


Robert,

I'm wondering why my rheumatologist doesn't know this. He suggested rubbing nitroglycerin onto my hands. Can you imagine the side-effects from doing that?

I think the Mixed diet you gave me is the missing link I was looking for.

Linda


Re: Where did Hunter-Gatherers get their Vitamin C??

Posted by Robert McFerran on August 04, 1998 at 23:19:02:

In Reply to: Re: Where did Hunter-Gatherers get their Vitamin C?? posted by Walt Stoll on August 04, 1998 at 20:34:13:

Thanks Walt -- for actually answering the question! I re-read my post and got so excited about something I knew that I forgot to address what was asked!

In my protocol section I suggest 3 grams of esterified C/day. Sounds like that is on the ragged edge of not being enough.......

Bob


Re: Rob, it 's me again...

Posted by Walt Stoll on August 05, 1998 at 12:22:35:

In Reply to: Re: Rob, it 's me again... posted by Linda on August 04, 1998 at 08:59:25:

Dear Linda,

Congratulations on your progress. If you will practice the skilled relaxation skills you have learned, at least twice a day for 20 minutes; after 6-12 months, no matter what else you do, you will have no more Raynauds (and probably a lot of other symptoms you have not yet shared).

Let us know how you do but do not do as so many others of us do and quit the thing that worked to look for something else to try.

Walt



Definitions...

Posted by Greg on August 05, 1998 at 12:54:12:

In Reply to: Re: Rob, it 's me again... posted by Robert McFerran on August 03, 1998 at 12:41:50:

Robert,

I have been trying to follow the thread with some difficulty. The
Hunter/Gatherers are equal to what bloodtype?
The Agraculturist are equal to what bloodtype?
The metabolic type is equal to what bloodtype?
The blood ph is equal to which bloodtype?
The stomach ph is related to bloodtype?

Does the A/B/O classification system have any
meaning or correlation to the above?

Does body type (ecto/endo/meso) have anything
to do with bloodtype, blood ph, stomach ph, and/or
metabolic type or rate?

Thanks!

Greg





Re: Where did Hunter-Gatherers get their Vitamin C??

Posted by Walt Stoll on August 05, 1998 at 14:34:45:

In Reply to: Re: Where did Hunter-Gatherers get their Vitamin C?? posted by Robert McFerran on August 04, 1998 at 23:19:02:

Hi, Bob!

3 grams of ESTERIFIED vitamin C is the equivalent of about 12 grams of regular C a day. That is a therapeutic dose.

I would suggest to anyone that they always take one gram of esterified vitamin C twice a day. THEN, when they were threatened with any kind of infection, go to 6 grams twice a day.

Namaste` Walt



Re: Definitions...

Posted by Robert McFerran on August 05, 1998 at 17:42:46:

In Reply to: Definitions... posted by Greg on August 05, 1998 at 12:54:12:

Greg,

Hunter-Gatherers as well as Agriculturists can be ANY blood type. I use those descriptive terms to suggest that the foods to which you are BEST adapted are simply the foods your recent ancestors ate WHEN THEIR BLOOD LINES WERE STILL PURE (i.e. -- when genetic mixing was very slow).

There are three GENERAL metabolic subsets. Once again I use the descriptive terms Hunter-Gatherer, Mixed and Agriculturist to suggest (anthropologically speaking) how different metabolic biochemistries were passed down to us today. It also gives a general description of the diet.

The ABO classification has NOTHING to do with biochemical metabolism. Once again our goal in all of this is trying to determine what foods our physiology is best adapted. ABO blood types will not reveal this.

Things like body type (i.e. endo, ecto, meso) and ABO might have some correlation (by saying correlation I'm suggesting much less than 100% correct) to metabolism it cannot conclusively determine to which foods you are properly adapted.

I believe there is no way (other than physically measuring blood plasm pH) to determine your inherited metabolic subset (whether you would be put in the descriptive and dietary class as a Hunter-Gather, Mixed or Agriculturist metabolic type). The easiest way is to simply test the various diets. The best one (and there will only be one best one) will give you (all things being equal) much higher energy yields.

Blood plasma pH is independent of stomach pH and ABO blood type. Blood plasma pH is indicative of the biochemical metabolic subset that you might fall.

Bob


Re: Paging...: Robert McFerran "My Diet"

Posted by ernie on August 01, 1998 at 15:13:00:

Robert,

Thank you for generously donating your time and energy educating those of us with health problems. I suffer from ankylosing spondylitis. At 37, I've already had my colon removed (ulcerative colitis) and had both hips replaced. My condition continues to worsen. Traditional doc's prescribe Voltaren (Non-steroidal anti-inflammatory) and small doses of steroids (5 mg) to alleviate my stiffness and pain. I've also been to massage therapists, accupuncturists and chiropractors without experiencing any long-term relief.

I read with great interest the early chapters of a book you were writing a long time ago. You seemed to understand the arthritic condition very well. Is the book complete? If so, how can I purchase a copy?

Please extoll any additional wisdom you may have on the appropriate treatment regime for ankylosing spondylitis. Your help is deeply appreciated.


Re: Paging...: Robert McFerran "My Diet"

Posted by Robert McFerran on August 01, 1998 at 15:46:08:

In Reply to: Re: Paging...: Robert McFerran "My Diet" posted by ernie on August 01, 1998 at 15:13:00:

Ernie,

Alas the book is still being written -- but that doesn't mean that we can't take care of that AS!

Basically you'll run and elimination diet that segues into a diet that is appropriate for your metabolic type. That should get you significant relief.

You'll need to go to a doc for a candida albicans blood titer to see if that is part of the problem and finally I have a protocol for helping to normalize anaerobic gut bacteria that seems to help most folks with AS.

Since you have AS you have also have a leaky gut. Dr. Stoll's book is the best introduction that I know of for understanding the mechanisms that lead to leaky gut and things like AS.

As for me I have rheumatoid arthritis and was taking 10 mg/day of prednisone, 400 mg/day of plaquenil, 25 mg./wk of methotrexate and 200 mg/day of feldene. As you know this is a real snoot-full of drugs! They didn't even slow down my arthritis. The result is that I've had a hip and shoulder replacement. Today I can honestly tell you that I don't take ANY arthritis drugs or pain-killers -- not even aspirin.

I'd be glad to help you in any way that I can.

Bob


Re: Paging...: Robert McFerran "My Diet"

Posted by ernie on August 07, 1998 at 12:50:33:

In Reply to: Re: Paging...: Robert McFerran "My Diet" posted by Robert McFerran on August 01, 1998 at 15:46:08:

Robert,

I was delighted to hear you have found a way to rid yourself of all the harmful meds. Are you truly pain free? Do you experience flare-ups?. Are you aware of any people with AS experiencing similar relief?

I would appreciate some additional information on the suggestions you made in treating my AS.
1.) How do I determine my metabolic type? I know that my blood type is O+.
2.) Once my metabolic type is determined, how would I know which diet is appropriate after an elimination diet?
3.) What type of doctor would perform a candida abicans blood titre for me? What does this test determine and what are the treatments or diets to follow afterwards.
4.) You indicated there is a protocol for treating anaerobic gut bacteria. Can you share that with me or refer me to an appropriate source.

I've read Dr. Stoll's book and understand the cause of Leaky Gut Syndrome. It wasn't obvious to me what the appropriate treatment is for people who have this condition.

Again, I appreciate and applaud your assistance.

ernie


Re: Paging...: Robert McFerran "My Diet"

Posted by Rpbert McFerran on August 07, 1998 at 18:42:02:

In Reply to: Re: Paging...: Robert McFerran "My Diet" posted by ernie on August 07, 1998 at 12:50:33:

Ernie,

I'll answer after each question in your post:

I was delighted to hear you have found a way to rid yourself of all the harmful meds. Are you truly pain free? Yes. Due to joint damage too much exercise or strain can induce pain but it resolves promptly.

Do you experience flare-ups?. No. I can induce a flare if I want to though, primarily by eating the wrong things.

Are you aware of any people with AS experiencing similar relief? One of my rheumatologists suggested that I have AS since I didn't respond well to drugs that usually work well for RA. Of course I perceived this as his way of coaxing me try azulfadine. I passed. My third rheumatologist proclaimed that I have 'mixed' AS and RA even though I am HLA-B27 negative.

I would appreciate some additional information on the suggestions you made in treating my AS.

1.) How do I determine my metabolic type? I know that my blood type is O+. How do you react to coffee or other caffeinated drinks? Can you drink 2 or more cups without food and not get jittery? Can you drink it late at night and not have it interfere with your sleep? Can you go most of the day without eating (in fact you find yourself feeling better when you don't eat) or do you snack every couple of hours throughout the day?

2.) Once my metabolic type is determined, how would I know which diet is appropriate after an elimination diet? The only way that you can be SURE is by testing that diet against one of the other diets. You'll feel a loss in energy level (increased fatigue) within 2 days if you moved to the wrong diet.

3.) What type of doctor would perform a candida abicans blood titre for me? What does this test determine and what are the treatments or diets to follow afterwards. An M.D. should perform the test since they will be the only ones capable of writing you a prescription for an antifungal that is powerful enough to do the job. Alternative practicioners will try herbal remedies, caprylic acid, biotin and other things that in my experience simply don't have adequate 'juice'. At the same time the antibody titer must be sent to the proper lab. Go to WWW.ANTIBODYASSAYS.COM to learn more. I think they can help you find a physician in your area too.

4.) You indicated there is a protocol for treating anaerobic gut bacteria. Can you share that with me or refer me to an
appropriate source. It basically involves pepto-bismol tablets. Chew four tablets before going to bed. If you feel better upon arising you have a problem. If you feel no difference I think that you can rule this one out -- at least to the point where you won't have to treat it specifically.

I've read Dr. Stoll's book and understand the cause of Leaky Gut Syndrome. It wasn't obvious to me what the appropriate
treatment is for people who have this condition.

Have you had the chance to read the first two sections of my book. They are on the BB ARCHIVE of this site under Robert McFerran's book. That might give more insight as to what CAUSES leaky gut syndrome. Once you have isolated your individual causes you'll understand how to reverse them and address anything else that you might have picked up along the way.

Diet, skilled relaxation, exercise and proper treatment of any opportunistic micro-organisms should help you re-normalize better than any drug.

Bob


Re: Paging...: Robert McFerran "My Diet"

Posted by Walt Stoll on August 08, 1998 at 10:54:03:

In Reply to: Re: Paging...: Robert McFerran "My Diet" posted by ernie on August 07, 1998 at 12:50:33:

Dear Ernie,

The long term solution to LGS is the regular practice of skilled relaxation.

Reread that chapter and the chapter about stress in my book. Notice the bibliographical reference in those chapters about "Mind as Healer, Mind as Slayer" by Dr Pelletier. Read it and you will fully understand what is behind your LGS & what to do about it.

There are intirim holistic treatments that would help for now. Go to www.fxmed.com for the 4-R program.

Walt



Walt and Robert -- re: diet

Posted by Peggy on August 01, 1998 at 19:41:44:

Walt and Robert,

My problem is ulcer. colitis, as well as the other intestinal problems that preceded it such as candida and parasites. Walt told me to put my energies into skilled relaxation right now and worry about diet later. I've been meditating the last couple weeks (which I know is barely a scratch on the surface in terms of time) and I exercise. I am not sick right now and feel extremely well and energetic lately. My question is:

I've been interested in doing the elimination diet and determining my metabolic type. (Don't worry Robert, I think I could handle it on my own with maybe an occasional question to you.) But, would that be a waste of time right now since my body is so messed up? In other words, would the current condition of my body possibly cause erroneous results in determining my type?

Thanks for any input. This is an excellent site; I'm learning so much.

Peggy





Re: Walt and Robert -- re: diet

Posted by Robert McFerran on August 01, 1998 at 22:06:38:

In Reply to: Walt and Robert -- re: diet posted by Peggy on August 01, 1998 at 19:41:44:

Peggy,

Walt taught me that skilled relaxation, exercise, whole foods diet and aggressively addressing any parasitic problems would be the path to wellness.

The benefits of adding another one of these to the skilled relaxation would not just be additive -- it would rather act as a multiplier in helping you regain your health.

As far as the diet goes, if you are ready I say just do it..................


Re: Walt and Robert -- re: diet

Posted by Walt Stoll on August 02, 1998 at 10:49:36:

In Reply to: Walt and Robert -- re: diet posted by Peggy on August 01, 1998 at 19:41:44:

Congratulations, Peggy.

You are finally on the right track to resolve this terrible condition. Do not be surprised if you still have a few relapses as you get well since it will take 6-12 months for your relaxation to prevent ANY relapses. Each relapse should be less severe, be further apart, and last less time as time goes on.

You WILL react differently to dietary changes while you still have LGS. However, if you have the energy to do your relaxation perfectly AND work with the diet, everything would work better. Either one of these take a lot of discipline and effort & it is important that you not overwhelm yourself doing them.

Many people get early results like this & get so enthusiastic that they overwhelm themselves doing stuff that they had not been able to do for years. Then they have a bad relapse & have to start over.

Be kind to your self and not be impatient. Slow & steady wins the race.

Walt



Re: Sorry, it's not Rob

Posted by Linda on August 01, 1998 at 22:17:32:


Tony:

Yes, I eat animal protein with a starch, although I try to eat only one piece of Ezekiel bread a day. Eating more meat definitely is making me feel better. I've had ulcer testing in the past. At one time they said I had "stomach spasms", and gave me tranquilizers for it. I was told not drink cold beverages, only warm. Flax oil doesn't agree with me either. but nothing does so I don't take any supplements. My doctor told me to take zantac 150 mg every night for GERD. I've been on it about a year now. He's given me other medications, but I won't take them because I always get a side-effect that is worse than the original symptom.

I think the pain in the back is an irritation that spasms, and I try not to dwell on it. Sometimes it goes away for a few months, then comes back.. I drank tons of licorice tea, but it didn't help much. Thanks for the information on Gastramet. Is it a natural supplement? Zantac gives me nightmares, but it beats Pepcid, because that gives me diarrhea.

Hang in there Tony, we'll get this all figured out and be healthy soon

Linda


Re: Wish I was more help...

Posted by Tony on August 04, 1998 at 15:02:04:

In Reply to: Re: Sorry, it's not Rob posted by Linda on August 01, 1998 at 22:17:32:

Linda,

Wow! It sounds like you've been through the mill with your stomach problems. I feel bad even talking about mine. Gastramet is all natural - that's all I'll take, I gave up on conventional medicines long ago - but it is mostly Licorice (DGL). Since the Licorice tea didn't help (I don't know how much you drank), then I don't know if that will either. And stomach spasms? What is that? It sounds horrible. I don't think the pain in my back is a spasm - it feels more like a burning and knawing.

I am starting to belive my problems lie in my intestines, because my stomach problems seem to coincide with my elimination patterns. I can stomach more food now since going to the Naturopath, and I really think the Gastramet, and later Astricumeel (a homeopathic remedy from Heel) that he prescribed can account for that. Of course, I still have a lot of stomach problems, along with all my other symptoms, but there has definitely been some stomach improvement, and I'm gaining some weight back finally. But the pain in my back is still as knawing as ever, especially when I sit up straight, as I am right now. I wish I could have your strength to just ignore it, but it gets so bad sometimes that I can't help but worry about it.

When I first began having all these stomach problems, I was convinced I had some life-threatening illness, or at least some terrible digestive disorder, and I never believed the doctors who told me there was nothing wrong. And I do know there is something wrong, but the more I hear about people like you and I, who have these massive digestive problems with no 'medical reason', the more I realize how right on Dr. Stoll is about stress and it's effect on the body. I'm convinced that stress and a poor diet have brought me to where I am today, which is not a pretty place. I really think Dr. Stoll can help (is helping) to bring me back. Of course, I wish I had the money to buy his book right now, but at least I can hear from him on this board. And I wish even more that I had known about him before I got sick, so that I wouldn't be where I am now.

I really wish I could help you more. If I come up with any more stomach salves I'll be sure to let you know.

Keep in touch!

Tony


Re: Wish I was more help...

Posted by Linda on August 05, 1998 at 09:31:31:

In Reply to: Re: Wish I was more help... posted by Tony on August 04, 1998 at 15:02:04:


Hi Tony

Were you able to complete the elimination diet? Clue me in, because I will be doing it soon. I'm going to try finding Gastramet today as the expense of the Zantac killing my pocketbook. My insurance will only pay for the generic form which I can't tolerate. Sounds to me like you got yourself into what I call the worry cycle. You have pain, worry about it, worry makes it worse, so you worry about it some more, etc. You have to break the loop with relaxation techniques.

I'm doing well, except for my leaky gut. It is by far the toughest to get rid of. I wonder if anybody has? The only thing I haven't done yet is the elimination diet. I hope you are trying the Hunter-Gatherer diet by now. Let me know what's going on with you.

Linda


Background - Robert McFerran?

Posted by deanna on August 02, 1998 at 09:25:28:

Hi - I am new to this board and noticed that there is a lot
of excellent dialoguing with Robert McFerran. I scouted all
over Dr. Stoll's web page in hopes of finding out who Robert
McFerran is. Thanks in advance, Deanna


Re: Background - Robert McFerran?

Posted by Robert McFerran on August 02, 1998 at 23:10:39:

In Reply to: Background - Robert McFerran? posted by deanna on August 02, 1998 at 09:25:28:

Hi Deanna,

I was fortunate enough to 'meet' Dr. Stoll about 4 years ago on Prodigy where he was serving as the Medical Advisor for the Alternative Medicine BB.

Before the main text of Dr. Stoll's book he lists patients that enthusiastically endorse his methods. I was one of them! Here is what I wrote:

When I was diagnosed with rheumatoid arthritis I was told that it was an incurable disease of unknown origin. I was prescribed drugs at near toxic levels and still the pain, fatigue, depression and general disability went unabated. For the last two years I have been implementing Dr. Stoll's suggestions and I'm pleased to report that my arthritis symptoms have diminished to the point where I don't take any drugs -- not even aspirin. I still have pain from joints that were severely damaged in the early years, but I am confident that I'm in control of my arthritis. I'm continuing to improve every day. I urge you to follow Dr. Stoll's advice and know that you can re-win your health.

At the time of writing that I had never met Dr. Stoll personally -- only via his BB.

I am currently writing a book called ARTHRITIS: Searching for the TRUTH, Searching for the CURE. In it I try to explain what I've learned 3 different ways. In the first two sections (archived on this site) I try to give some theory and a historical perspective on the surprising amount of work in this area that has already been done. The next section is a Protocol that ANYONE with any type of arthritis or rheumatoid disease can follow and get results. Finally is a detailed description and chronology of my own personal experience.

The information can be daunting -- especially if you are sick (which in my case greatly effected my mental acuity and new to these ideas. I'm hoping that by giving what is basically the same information in three different ways that the readers will become more comfortable with the concepts by books end. From there I can only hope that they have to volition to try some things and benefit from the results.

Bob


Re: Background - Robert McFerran?

Posted by Walt Stoll on August 03, 1998 at 14:56:39:

In Reply to: Background - Robert McFerran? posted by deanna on August 02, 1998 at 09:25:28:

Dear Deanna,

The goal of any good teacher is to see the student exceed the teacher. Bob is one of those I can proudly say has done just that--at least so far as nutrition is concerned.

Bob would be the first to say that he is just scratching the surface of what he is learning. However, even just scratching, he has been able to help himself more in a few months than all the "experts" in conventional medicine did over many years.

Anyone who has any form of arthritis (RA being the worst) is kidding him/herself if s/he does not combine skilled relaxation with ANY dietary approach.

Thanks, Bob!

Namaste` Walt



Question for Robert

Posted by susie on August 03, 1998 at 11:14:20:

Robert...Why no plums, apricots berries etc. on the mixed diet? My system is very alkaline and I thought these fruits would be very good for me.


Re: Question for Robert

Posted by Robert McFerran on August 03, 1998 at 12:26:30:

In Reply to: Question for Robert posted by susie on August 03, 1998 at 11:14:20:

Susie,

I think that you are using 'alkaline' in the context of the way it has been used by Naturopathic practicioners. This has NOTHING to do with the acid/alkaline balance that Dr. Wiley describes in BioBalance.

Dr. Watson and Wiley found that there was an optimal BLOOD PLASMA pH that was the product of biochemical metabolic yields. Each different metabolic type would have the same blood plasma pH IF they were eating the diet appropriate for their inherited metabolic type.

As far as the foods that you mentioned go -- they tend to assist Agriculturists and hurt Hunter-gatherers. This isn't to say that you could not eat them. I think that you would find that one plum at the end of a meal with the appropriate vegetables and meats for your metabolic type wouldn't be a problem. At the same time eating a plum alone as a snack would be disasterous.

By the way, I have looked closely at this whole concept of alkalinizing and acidifying foods. I feel that it is of little use in determining what foods an individual is best adapted.

Bob


Paging Robert McFerran

Posted by Susan on August 04, 1998 at 23:02:41:

Robert I would like to dialog with you concerning this metabolic diet I have been reading about. Seems like it is helping people like Linda. I don't get too excited about anything these days since I have tried so many things. Haven't worked in five years and really would like to soon. I have chronic fatigue/arthritis with a lot more good days now that I have followed the Type O diet(it took me a year to let go of wheat and corn completely). When I first came across your metabolic diet I thought it was radical, but after reading alot of your posts I would like to try it.. Should I start with ordering Biobalalance and Dr. Stoll's book? Or should I do the eliminaton diet or get the blood work done? Thanks in advance. Can't wait for your new book to come out. Susan You can e-mail me if you like.


Re: Paging Robert McFerran

Posted by Robert McFerran on August 04, 1998 at 23:40:48:

In Reply to: Paging Robert McFerran posted by Susan on August 04, 1998 at 23:02:41:

Susan,

What type of arthritis do you have? Have you read the first two sections of my book (found archived on this site)?

You don't really need any blood work since the only CONCLUSIVE evidence is what your body tells you when you test the diets. Since you are doing pretty well with the type O diet we'll start you with the Hunter-Gatherer diet (which is an EXTREME) and move back to the middle as needed.

Since you do have arthritis you DO have leaky gut syndrome and have a high probability of having hidden food allergies. Therefore you need to begin by running the elimination diet and then when you get to the testing phase -- start testing only the recommended foods from the Hunter-Gatherer diet.

The main thing that you are fighting (like everyone else with arthritis) is leaky gut syndrome. Order Dr. Stoll's book to get the most comprehensive understanding of that topic. Of course you can order BioBalance too but it spends most of it's time defending the various diets. It sounds as though you don't want to argue but rather want to get some results.

Let me know when you are ready to run the elimination diet and if you have any questions.

Bob


Re: Paging Robert McFerran

Posted by Susan on August 05, 1998 at 20:16:13:

In Reply to: Re: Paging Robert McFerran posted by Robert McFerran on August 04, 1998 at 23:40:48:

Bob,
I have never been diagnosed with arthritis by a doc. The back of my hands hurt sometimes and I have noticed a bone spur of sorts recently that is tender to the touch. I have read alot in the archives under your name but I have not found the chapters in your book. Where are they? I was diagnosed with CFS five years ago by this doc in Atlanta who is supposedly an environmental medicine specialist. He ran thousands of dollars worth of tests which told me that I am chemically and food sensitive (I was a flight attendant for 7 1/2 years), had no stomach acid, no parasites via a stool test, Candida antibodies normal, low thyroid, LGS, ETC, ETC. After spending BIG BUCKS there I left when he told me that I would always have this. I felt depressed and dis-heartened. I went to one more doc before giving up on the medical route who said that I did have candida but I was barely out of the normal range. No one could tell me what to eat!!!!! Since then I have tried various things on my own. Eveyone has an MLM product that they say will cure CFS and have tried three of them. I have done homeopathics and herbs, electromagnetics, energy work, group therapy, reiki, prayer and affirmations, hands-on-healing, macrobiotics, supplements out the yin yang, and at times nothing. Everything has helped. I now take armour thyroid and supplements from a lab that did a hair analysis. Way high on calcium and magnesium and too much aluminum so far. I had standard blood work done last September where I was pronounced perfectly healthy. Oh and my blood pressure is on the low side. Since I was a kid I remember being in a flight or fight stance, so I find Dr. Stoll's recommendation for the meditation interesting. I will let you know when I start the elim diet. Sure would like to add lamb whicch I do not eat very often due to it's expense. Susan


Re: Paging Robert McFerran

Posted by Robert McFerran on August 05, 1998 at 23:37:51:

In Reply to: Re: Paging Robert McFerran posted by Susan on August 05, 1998 at 20:16:13:

Susan,

Look up in the upper right hand section of this the bulletin board page and click on 'BB archives'. Then go to Robert McFerran's book.

Since you sound like a Hunter-gatherer I'll let you add lamb and olive oil to your elimination diet. When you do it remember go easy on the starchy carbohydrates (especially the sweet potato/yam).

Your story sounds a lot like mine. I really feel for you and all the money that you've spent 'searching for the truth and searching for the cure'. It sounds much like my own experience.

Bob


Re: Paging Robert McFerran

Posted by Walt Stoll on August 06, 1998 at 11:02:05:

In Reply to: Re: Paging Robert McFerran posted by Susan on August 05, 1998 at 20:16:13:

Dear Susan,

It is to your credit that, after all you have tried, you still have not given up. WELL, you finally are at the right place and I know how hokey that must sound with all the stories you have been fed all along.

Just remember, you are not paying ME. The fact that you are even thinking about the skilled relaxation is encouraging since, in the long run, that is your only solution.

If you want to see how all of this is connected, you would want to read a bok that was written about you: "Mind as Healer, Mind as Slayer" by Dr Pelletier. Get the most recent edition.

THEN, if you still have questions, write again.

Where did you get your "parasite tests" that were negative? Are you aware that conventional labs only find one out of fifty parasites placed in test samples by the state testing boards? Are you aware that even the best US specialty labs only find one out of five? Even with the best labs, it takes repeated & purged specimens to find even the majority of parasites present.

I am not trying to say that you have to have parasites as the cause of many of your symptoms. However, your total bodymind story tells me that you have to have some & without dealing with why you have them there is no way to eliminate them permanently enough to figure it out.

Walt



Re: Paging Robert McFerran

Posted by Susan on August 06, 1998 at 14:56:32:

In Reply to: Re: Paging Robert McFerran posted by Walt Stoll on August 06, 1998 at 11:02:05:


Hi Walt, I do not believe the negative outcome of the stool test NOW. It was done by Smoky Mountain Labs in Asheville, NC which I believe I read is one of the better ones. That was five years ago. All of the reading I've done tells me that I have some. Plus, in my twenties I traveled to some third world countries and ate local food!!! I am not sure which book to buy first- yours, Dr. Pelletier's, or the other half dozen or so that I have seen mentioned in the archives. I am so hungry for knowledge. I finally have enough strength to make a major push towards health. I forgot to mention that I have done chiropratic and massage therapy and that the hair analysis shows exhausted adrenals and thyroid glands and an inability to process carbohydrates which I "love" (i.e. need so as to feed someone other than me). I lose a high number of hairs too. I haven't given up because that isn't an option and frankly I am too stubborn and can not believe there is no solution. Although sometimes I have given up for periods of time. Thanks for your concern. Susan


Re: Paging Robert McFerran

Posted by Susan on August 06, 1998 at 15:55:21:

In Reply to: Re: Paging Robert McFerran posted by Robert McFerran on August 05, 1998 at 23:37:51:


Bob, I found your book and read through chapter 15. So, if the gut wall cells turn over every 14 hours or so, my guess is that it wouldn't take that long to 'plug up" the gut wall, providing a person ate according to their metabolical type. Susan


Re: Paging Robert McFerran

Posted by Robert McFerran on August 06, 1998 at 19:18:56:

In Reply to: Re: Paging Robert McFerran posted by Susan on August 06, 1998 at 15:55:21:

Susan,

I'm glad you brought that up!

As you know in most cases I suggest running an elimination diet (to detect hidden food allergies) prior to moving to the metabolic diet.

I can honestly say that I've never seen a person with arthritis that wasn't eating a diet mismatched for their inherited metabolic needs. Having said that I'll also say that I think this is the major undiagnosed variable that initiates and perpetuates leaky gut syndrome.

The problem is that once the gut begins to leak, food allergies will undoubtably develop. Immunity is altered and defense mechanisms normally in place for maintaining normal gut flora are also changed -- often leading to overgrowth of parasitic/opportunistic micro-organisms including candida albicans, amoebas, mycoplasmas, and other bacteria.

I have seen those that had all their symptoms resolve very quickly after they eliminated food allergens and moved to the appropriate metabolic diet. Apparently this was the inciting cause and the resolution of their leaky gut.

Case in point was a 70 year old woman with arthritis so severe that she had difficulty walking. She suffered with this for 5 years and also had problems with depression (for which she was taking medication). Within a month of eliminating food allergens and starting her metabolic diet she started playing golf again. She posted me yesterday that she WALKED 18 holes with friends in 85 degree heat with no problem. She's not taking her anti-depression meds any more and is slowly weaning off of the prednisone that she was taking for her arthritis (down to 4 mg/day). She eliminated the non-steroidal anti-inflammatory she was taking on the first day of her elimination diet. She is only now starting a daily practice of skilled relaxation at my prompting. I think that she would stand on her head all day if I told her to do it. :)!!

I had her go to my doctor and get an antibody titer measured for candida albicans. Negative. She ran a simple protocol that I've developed to determine whether she has a problem with intestinal bacterial overgrowth. Also negative. Stories like this make me jealous but they are illuminating.

Contrast her story to mine. Food allergies, inhaled allergies, diet mismatched to inherited metabolism, candida albicans AND bacterial overgrowth. I'm doing everything in my power to re-win my health but my immune system has seemingly lost it's ability to recognize and modulate candida growth. I can be injected intra-dermally with candida antigen and I have essentially no skin response.

The first thing I did was to try to let my body (and immune system) re-normalize. After taking sufficiently long courses of anti-fungal meds I would stop and found that I would have an immediate relapse. The rest is beyond the scope of this post but suffice it to say that sometimes a 'broken' immune system may not re-normalize naturally. That's why it's always better to address the underlying causes of chronic conditions NOW rather than later.

It's sort of like when a horse breaks loose from his stable. If you can shut the barn door in time you're going to have a much easier time getting him back in the stable. Once he's bolted out the barn you're going to be confronted with a whole new set of problems in getting him back in.

Bob (overusing his Kentucky horse analogies)




Re: Paging Robert McFerran

Posted by Susan on August 06, 1998 at 23:18:55:

In Reply to: Re: Paging Robert McFerran posted by Robert McFerran on August 06, 1998 at 19:18:56:

Bob
Sounds lile I will just have to do it and see how my body responds. I have been feeling great in the morning but loose my energy in the PM between 2 and 5. This is prnounced in the summertime ( I now live in Texas- we've been having day after day of 100), and I have had to take naps. In the spring and fall I do not become fatigued so markedly in the pm. Any correlation between this stuff and weather. On the hunter-gatherer diet will I only eat those few veggies listed after doing the elim test? Any others permitted? Susan


Re: Paging Robert McFerran

Posted by Robert McFerran on August 07, 1998 at 12:42:19:

In Reply to: Re: Paging Robert McFerran posted by Susan on August 06, 1998 at 23:18:55:

Susan,

None of the other vegetables are allowed during the testing phase. The reason is that some folks have VERY extreme metabolisms. The foods listed in the recommended section of the Hunter-gather diet will take you to that extreme if you eat them exclusively. Once there you can 'feel' your way around to find what works best for you. In other words you'll find you can tolerate other vegetables in small amounts.

I'm not sure about why you are fading in the afternoon. Still way too many variables. What are you eating for lunch?

Bob


Re: Paging Robert McFerran

Posted by Susan on August 07, 1998 at 20:54:50:

In Reply to: Re: Paging Robert McFerran posted by Robert McFerran on August 07, 1998 at 12:42:19:

Bob, At what point do we start getting to the parasites. I am always stratching everywhere but it is not my skin that itches but underneath the skin. This must be parasites!!! Sure would like to know!!! Some nights the itching keeps me awake so that I don't get enough sleep and I can't go on six hours a night. Hence the napping, plus perhaps the wrong food. I was thinking in the grocery store today that if eating only a few veggies would help restore my health then it was worth it. I am sure you know what I mean. Susan



Re: Paging Robert McFerran

Posted by Robert McFerran on August 07, 1998 at 22:38:58:

In Reply to: Re: Paging Robert McFerran posted by Susan on August 07, 1998 at 20:54:50:

Susan,

Diet first. Parasites next and skilled relaxation during.

When Dr. Stoll and I mention parasites it is inclusive for a very broad range of opportunistic micro-organisms. I don't know that I would associate your symptoms with parasites.

Bob


Update for Linda

Posted by Tony on August 06, 1998 at 12:14:19:

Linda,

Hi, it's Tony again. The string at the bottom was getting too long so I started a new thread up here. I'm glad to hear you're doing okay except for the leaky gut. By the way, how are you treating the leaky gut? I haven't heard of any real remedies other than proper diet and skilled relaxation. I'm going to a different Naturopath in a few weeks who says she has a lot of experience with leaky gut, so we'll see what happens.

As far as my situation, well I'm sorry to say I "fell off the wagon" this past week. My problem is that I've been to sick to work, and I'm totally broke. So it isn't always easy to get the money to get all the right foods. So I did the elimination diet for 4 days, and then I ran out of food and money, and I ended up going off of it. I didn't notice any real difference on the elimination diet, other than intense sugar cravings. After my 4 day elimination I started eating some more meat, but my intestines were killing me and I couldn't go to the bathroom.

Granted I didn't give the meat experiment long enough (just a few days), but I don't think it's right for me right now. I am going to try it again when I get some more money and my stomach can handle it a little better. Right now I am heading towards a combination of the Zone, ER4YT, and Atkin's. If there's one thing I've learned from this board, it's that you have to try everything and find what works for you.

By the way, I was thinking about you when I was reading Dr. Atkin's new book, the Vita-Nutrient Solution. I've never read any of his books, or thought much of what I heard about his diet, but I definitely think you should get this book, and turn right to the Digestive Section. (You don't have to buy it, - I got it out of my library) He has a lot of very promising natural prescriptions for all of our digestive disorders, and they are layed out in very easy to follow programs. Gastramet and Licorice are in there, but he also has some other, supposedly more effective herbs and supplements. I really want to try and incorporate a few of them, but of course I can't afford it right now. But definitely take a look at that book! I really think it can help you.

Well, I've talked your ear off long enough. I'll let you go. I hope you get some natural help, and let me know how you're doing.

Bye!

Tony


Re: Update for Linda

Posted by Linda on August 06, 1998 at 20:51:24:

In Reply to: Update for Linda posted by Tony on August 06, 1998 at 12:14:19:


Hi Tony,
It's good to hear from you. I thought maybe you were busy climbing the walls from all the detox on the elimination diet. Four days is more than halfway through it. I'm sorry to hear you were unable to finish, but boy, I hear ya when it comes to buying the right foods. Where I live fresh fish costs eight dollars a pound.

I saw the Atkins book at the library and almost picked it up, but didn't because I'm doing pretty well. I will check it out though. I'm not doing anything for my leaky gut specifically. The mixed diet seems right for me. I have alot more energy on it. I'm taking classes in Thi Chi, which is like doing skilled relaxation on your feet. (I had to give up getting my hair cut so I could afford to do this). It's been 5 yr since I've been able to work too.

I keep forgetting to tell you, the Chinese say soy milk is good for the stomach and digestion. Tony don't forget, "God cures and the doctor sends the bill - MARK TWAIN

Take care,

Linda





Re: Update for Linda

Posted by Tony on August 07, 1998 at 13:17:57:

In Reply to: Re: Update for Linda posted by Linda on August 06, 1998 at 20:51:24:

Linda,

I'm really glad to hear you're feeling a little better. I read your post to Rob and I see you're gearing up for the elimination diet. Good Luck! I hope you do better than I did. I really think it's worth it to stick it out.

Thanks for the tip about soy milk. I usually have some every day - I don't know if it helps, but I think its good for me anyway. How do you like Tai Chi? I've been dying to take it, but one I can't afford it, and two there are no teachers close to where I live. You only had to give up your haircuts to afford it? I thought it cost a lot more than that! You must get some nice haircuts!

That Mark Twain quote was great! I'm going to incorporate that into my vocabulary from now on (I'll footnote you). Thanks for the update, and I hope you keep healing.

Tony



Re: Update for Linda

Posted by Walt Stoll on August 07, 1998 at 16:08:27:

In Reply to: Update for Linda posted by Tony on August 06, 1998 at 12:14:19:

Dear Tony,

Remember, although a properly conducted elimination diet (that means TOTAL elimination of whatever you are testing for 2 weeks) can give you rapid relief of symptoms (providing that you were lucky enough to choose one of the offending foods the first time) in the long run, by far, the most important single thing for you to do is the skilled relaxation.

ALSO, if you have had the LGS for a few years, you certainly also have parasites (of which candida is one) and rapid relief of symptoms can accrue from an accurate diagnosis and specific treatment of the offending organism(s).

Great Smokies Labs (so far as I know, the most accurate lab in the country for parasites ) stil only finds 1/5th of the organisms present with one specimen. SO, several purged specimens are needed for a decent diagnosis. They can also tell you which docs near you would know what to order AND what to do with the information.

HOWEVER, in the beginning, without any monetary resources, I would get Beth Loiselle, RD's classic "The Healing Power of Whole Foods" before I would consider trying refined carbohydrate elimination---the most likely thing to give you quick results (3-4 days). Then, I would learn from Robert McFerran about the other elimination diets.

Getting started with the skilled relaxation right now would have it working by the time you had tested out a few eliminations.

Walt



Re: Update for Tony

Posted by Linda on August 07, 1998 at 16:11:27:

In Reply to: Re: Update for Linda posted by Tony on August 07, 1998 at 13:17:57:


Hi Tony,

I was having a bad day and you made me laugh. I guess I do get some pretty groovy haircuts, if I do say so myself! I just felt the money could be spent more wisely. Have you looked into a community center or sometimes insurance companies give Tai Chi lessons. It's supposed to return the digestive system to normal balance, plus improve circulation.

I tried yoga but it really hurt my neck.

Yes, I'm gearing up for the elimination diet. I figure I might as well get it over with, although I know I;m going to have a whoppin headache from caffeine withdrawal. Right now I'm looking at Monday to start it. Now I said it, so I have to do it. I was looking at the list of acceptable foods and there's not much there for breakfast except a peach and a pear, and I guess I'll warm up that spring water and pretend its coffee!

Take care Tony,

Linda


Re: Update for Linda

Posted by Tony on August 07, 1998 at 17:02:58:

In Reply to: Re: Update for Linda posted by Walt Stoll on August 07, 1998 at 16:08:27:

Dr. Stoll,

Thanks. I just happened to see this post. I didn't expect to find you here.

Tony


Robert McFerran Elimination Diet

Posted by Lindsay on August 06, 1998 at 16:08:36:

I've been reading the archives about Bob McFerran's
suggested elimination diet(or I guess it was
first suggested by someone else). In any case,
some of the anecdotes describe reactions to
food allergen reintroduction that sound not
only extremely unpleasant, but dangerous. For
instance, the doctor, whose name I don't remember,
who lost consciousness when he reintroduced
eggs into his diet. Should you have someone
to sort of "spot" you the whole time you are
reintroducing potential food allergens, so that
if you have a reaction like this, you dont
hurt yourself?

Thanks,
Lindsay




Re: Robert McFerran Elimination Diet

Posted by Robert McFerran on August 06, 1998 at 18:12:29:

In Reply to: Robert McFerran Elimination Diet posted by Lindsay on August 06, 1998 at 16:08:36:

Lindsay,

You bring up a good point. The overwhelming majority of folks just suffer what would feel like severe flu symptoms in addition to whatever their specific problem happens to be. What I mean here is that flu-like fatigue, aches and pains along with headache and nasal congestion are VERY common. Those folks that have arthritis can expect CRIPPLING joint pain and swelling. Those folks who suffer from chronic migraines can expect a humdinger. Those who suffer from bouts of depression or anxiety will see an intensification of those feelings.

The bad news is that I don't know of any other way to effectively determine food allergies. Even if someone did a test and you eliminated those foods -- if you eliminated ALL of your individual food allergen you SHOULD HAVE equally strong withdrawl symptoms.

The good news is that the worst part of the withdrawl is only 48 hours. It may be 48 hours of hell but it proves to that individual the power of food allergens and convinces them beyond a shadow of a doubt that they have leaky gut syndrome.

Then within the next 48 hours as the person 'clears' they will feel MUCH better than when they started the diet. This restoration from purgatory to something a little closer to heaven often gives those that do it the volition to take the responsibility for their health into their own hands. In many cases for the first time.

Bob


Re: Robert McFerran Elimination Diet

Posted by Walt Stoll on August 07, 1998 at 11:13:25:

In Reply to: Robert McFerran Elimination Diet posted by Lindsay on August 06, 1998 at 16:08:36:

Hi, Lindsey.

You are right that some of these reactions to reintroduction of allergens can be severe. However, they are never life threatening unless the person is risk-taking enough to do their reintroduction test just before sky-diving or going for a drive. The severe ones always happen within a few hours.
I don't see this as a reason for not finding out.

ALSO, there is a way to stop any reaction within a few minutes by taking "Alka Seltzer gold". It swiftly alkalinizes the blood. It is the acidification of the blood that mediates an allergic reaction like this .

The good side is that no one will ever be able to convince this person that s/he is not reactive to this particular food. Many conventional docs will undoubtedly try since it goes against their narrow paradigm. They will not succeed any more than they can hold back the medicine of the 21st century.

Walt



Robert, ELIMINATION DIET?

Posted by Linda on August 07, 1998 at 08:38:06:

Hi Robert,

I'm sticking with the mixed diet and do notice more energy. The wierd thing is I seem to alternate, one day feeling great, next day , excessive heartburn and tired. I discovered yesterday that Ezekiel bread is a problem (I avoid wheat, but thought sprouted would be ok). I know I should run the elimination diet, but too much is going on right now and I can't take the time to be sick. At the end of the month, when my kids are back in school would be a good time for me to do it. Could the elimination diet be done in 4 days? I know I could handle 4 days. I'm sorry, I'm a big wimp. I'm addicted to coffee, only in the a.m. (1-2 cups). I drink half decaff half regular (that's as far as I got trying to quit).

Linda


Re: Robert, ELIMINATION DIET?

Posted by Robert McFerran on August 07, 1998 at 12:51:43:

In Reply to: Robert, ELIMINATION DIET? posted by Linda on August 07, 1998 at 08:38:06:

Linda,

On day one of the elimination diet you will feel very little in the way of withdrawl until the evening. Days 2 and 3 are the worst and by day four you are clearing. By day 5 you are continuing to clear. So in reality most folks are only out of commision for 48 hours.

I'm glad that you see that the gastric upset and concomitant fatigue are probably due to to a food allergen rather than the foods that match your metabolism. That's the reason why running the elimination diet is so important if you really want to lessen the variables that could be causing your symptoms.

I wish I knew of an easier way. As you know folks can spend thousands of dollars in testing (one seemingly easier way) and, in the end, still not really know what food allergens are causing their symptoms.

Bob


Re: Robert, ELIMINATION DIET?

Posted by Linda on August 07, 1998 at 15:52:45:

In Reply to: Re: Robert, ELIMINATION DIET? posted by Robert McFerran on August 07, 1998 at 12:51:43:


Robert,

It is very kind of you to answer my many questions. I have just one more question, then there is nothing left to do but run the elimination diet. Since I have alot of acid reflux, are you sure my stomach acid won't eat through my stomach lining or really irritate it because I won't be taking my Zantac while I am on the elimination diet.

Thanks,

Linda

P.S. I can't find Alka-Seltzer Gold anywhere, will regular do?


Re: Robert, ELIMINATION DIET?

Posted by Peggy on August 07, 1998 at 16:03:40:

In Reply to: Robert, ELIMINATION DIET? posted by Linda on August 07, 1998 at 08:38:06:


Hi Linda,

Several weeks ago I did a JUICE fast for 10 days; that means no food. And, I have a 14 month old to take care of. Now that's h-ll and I felt like sh-t. Some days I actually felt ok, but for the most part, I barely had strength to even juice my produce. And, was I one irritable ...
Robert's elimination diet would be a piece of cake.

Robert, because of my reaction to fasting I suspect I might be a hunter-gatherer, or at least in that direction. And there I was being a vegetarian for 10 years.

Peggy





Re: Robert, ELIMINATION DIET?

Posted by Robert McFerran on August 07, 1998 at 18:15:15:

In Reply to: Re: Robert, ELIMINATION DIET? posted by Linda on August 07, 1998 at 15:52:45:

Linda,

I am not a physician.

If you are on zantac as a prescription medicine I would continue it while on the elimination diet while it probably contains food excipients that might compromise true elimination of all food allergens.

If you are taking it on your own as an over the counter drug I would suggest stopping it. You can always add it back later and you might find that you don't need it.

The regular alka-seltzer has aspirin which is o.k. to take if you haven't been taking aspirin or any other salicylate anti-inflammatory agents on a regular basis.

In the end lots of people don't use the alka-seltzer BUT do drink a lot of water to speed the elimination process.

Bob


Re: Robert, ELIMINATION DIET?

Posted by Linda on August 08, 1998 at 08:34:45:

In Reply to: Re: Robert, ELIMINATION DIET? posted by Peggy on August 07, 1998 at 16:03:40:


Hi Peggy,

I know what you mean. I went on a grapefruit diet once and after only two days became so weak I couldn't get out of bed and had to have food brought to me in bed. Why in the heck do we get all these allergies to food. Should I blame my mom because I was bottle fed?

I'm going to think positive in that maybe when I start adding foods back, some of my favorites I've been avoiding will be ok. I'm really good at practicing the relaxation techniques, but it's harder to eat the right foods. Actually as I was reading Robert's post I was shoving a big donut in my mouth, but hey, I'm doing the elimination diet on Monday. I also found a post in the Archives where Robert told someone if you clear quickly, 5 days would be long enough. I should have read the archives before asking Robert so many questions because alot of it is in there, which just proves how nice Robert is to answer the same questions over again.

Linda




Re: Robert, ELIMINATION DIET?

Posted by Walt Stoll on August 08, 1998 at 10:17:23:

In Reply to: Robert, ELIMINATION DIET? posted by Linda on August 07, 1998 at 08:38:06:

Dear Linda,

The average person will see effects from TOTAL elimination within 3 1/2 days since that is the lifespan of the antibodies involved with this reaction. However, that means that some people will see benefits in a day & others might not for a week. That is why I recommend a week. That is to catch as many people as possible.

Walt



Re: Robert, ELIMINATION DIET?

Posted by Walt Stoll on August 08, 1998 at 11:10:29:

In Reply to: Re: Robert, ELIMINATION DIET? posted by Linda on August 07, 1998 at 15:52:45:

Dear Linda,

AlkaSeltzer Gold is the only pure alkalinization product. All the rest have something else mixed in (aspirin, etc.). They will still work but then you have to worry about the side effects (and increase of lgs) caused by the additives.

Walt



Re: Robert, ELIMINATION DIET?

Posted by Ignacio on August 08, 1998 at 13:40:02:

In Reply to: Re: Robert, ELIMINATION DIET? posted by Robert McFerran on August 07, 1998 at 18:15:15:

Robert:

Is the elimination diet solely structured to detect allergens? I thought it was also used to determine metabolic type.

If the latter hypothesis is true, I am confused. I am hunter-gather (H-G) since my glucose tolerance test showed I am hypoglycemic (as you define it). As an H-G I shouldn't have yams, zucchini or peaches. But I am supposed to eat these when doing the elimination diet. How will I "clear" if I am eating an avoid?



Re: Robert, ELIMINATION DIET?

Posted by Robert McFerran on August 09, 1998 at 00:10:19:

In Reply to: Re: Robert, ELIMINATION DIET? posted by Ignacio on August 08, 1998 at 13:40:02:

Ignacio,

The question that you bring up is one that has troubled me enough to lose several hours of sleep!

As you have noted the elimination diet not only contains hypo-allergenic foods but it is also decidedly 'light' and would favor the metabolic needs of an Agriculturist metabolism. Note that it contains some foods on the recommended as well as some foods for the avoid for each metabolic type to give some 'buffering' action.

I have considered creating two elimination diets. One for each metabolic type. The problem is that if you guess wrong and go with the H-G elimination diet and you are actually an Agriculturist the diet would not reveal anything.

The converse (happily) is not true.

You can successfully use the rather 'light' elimination diet if you possess a H-G metabolism. You will find that you will have to eat the fish 3-4 times a day to maintain energy level while avoiding overly excessive amounts of fruit and yam/sweet potato.

Once you have 'cleared' and begin testing foods you can displace some of the 'avoid' foods as you find no reaction to the newly re-introduced 'recommended' foods. As you make this conversion you will remain 'clear' and find that the foods that you are eating give you more staying power (i.e. you can eat less and go longer in between meals).

If you are SURE that you are a H-G (as some folks have played with the metabolic diets before running the elimination diet) add lamb and olive oil to your list of safe foods on the elimination diet. Pull out the yam/sweet potato, zucchinni and peaches. This will speed the entire process.

Realize that when I use the concept of the elimination diet and the metabolic diet in the protocol section of my book that I'm trying to draw a straight line list of directions that can be used by everyone. As you point out -- everyone ain't the same. Right now I'm considering using just the one elimination diet. It will also serve as a diagnostic tool for the next phase (identifying metabolic type) primarily by how much fish is needed to maintain energy level during the first phase.

As you might guess Agriculturists who don't need purines will do well eating the fish once a day or less. Mixed and Hunter-Gather types will find that the purine containing fish is key to maintaining energy level. Without it they will be hungry within an hour.

I have to admit that I've run into various problems with the elimination diet and I might consider flip flopping things by having folks try to determine metabolic type first and then running the appropriate elimination diet. The problem is that strong food allergies can give you a false read on true metabolic identity.

Most of the problems that I've experienced stem from the fact that there is something on the diet that the individual simply refuses to eat. This is a real problem for H-G types that don't like cod or can't get the other fish -- so they just eat the fruit and vegetables. They HAVE to eat some fish to get an accurate read on what is going on with the diet.

Thanks for a logical question. Sorry for such a 'messy' answer.

Bob


Robert:Hunter-Gatherer diet

Posted by Lucie on August 08, 1998 at 18:27:10:

Robert, You may recall we exchanged a few messages a bit over week ago. I told you I believed I was eating "badly" for my metabolism type after reading about characteristics of HunterG types including extremely low uric acid, hypoglycemic, etc. Although I don't have any major health issue I was/am convinced that my diet (and certainly not due to quantity--I eat very modestly--or lack of excercising was reason for stubborn and extremely frustrating 10 extra pounds that just won't go away) I've altered my high fiber, mostly grain, legumes, and veggy diet to include more meat and fish. Well, its too soon to report back on results but I I have a weird symptom that has coincided with my change of diet and wonder if this may be the cause of too many purines. The symptom is that primarily my legs (but also arms) have a perpetually "rubbery" feel, you know, as if you had excercised too much and your muscles tremor a bit. Its not painful but uncomfortable. Any insight to this? Or do you think its totally separate from my diet. Also, can tofu products be used as substitutes for meat/fish. I must admit, its really difficult for me to eat meat/fish 3 times a day...just not used to it. Thanks in advance Robert. Lucie.


Re: Robert:Hunter-Gatherer diet

Posted by Robert McFerran on August 08, 1998 at 23:25:21:

In Reply to: Robert:Hunter-Gatherer diet posted by Lucie on August 08, 1998 at 18:27:10:

Lucie,

There are a couple of problems that might be interfering with what you are trying to accomplish (which is finding the foods to which you are best adapted).

The first is the probable presence of food allergens that can cause symptoms and actually interfere with metabolic processes.

The second is trying to interpret whether a certain metabolic diet is appropriate without actually eating the foods on the diet. If you do indeed have an EXTREME H-G metabolism nothing less than meal three times a day is acceptable. At the same time you'll have to limit carbohydrate intake while upping fat. I know it's hard to make this change since you are used to doing just the opposite.

As far as the soy goes -- yes, it is relatively high in purine content BUT not enough purine and fat to be a substitute for meat/fish. Another problem with soy is that it is a major food allergen (in the same class with corn, wheat and milk). This is due to the use of soy by-products in so many of our processed products as well as the fact that soybean is a relatively new food for Hunter-gatherers.

I don't know about the rubbery legs.

If you run the elimination diet you'll also be able to find your probable metabolic type.

The elimination diet is decidedly 'light'. If you are an Agriculturist you will find that you don't need the fish to feel satisfied once you clear. Hunter-gatherers on the elimination diet will find themselves eating 3-4 meals with fish each day to feel their best.

Bob


Another Hunter-Gatherer Question

Posted by Ignacio on August 09, 1998 at 15:30:26:

I posted this question yesterday at the end of a long thread and today the thread is gone, so I'll try again. Maybe it was answered, but I didn't get a chance to see it.

First, a note of thanks. I never found Robert McFerran's book on this site till yesterday. It was excellent!

Now for the question. As I understand it, there are two (relatively independent) mechanisms at work: metabolic type and allergy.

Since my glucose tolerance test showed that my glucose level soars and then plummets, I am hypoglycemic. Hypoglycemics must limit carbohydrates and eat high-purine foods. I accept for the moment that hunter-gatherers are prescribed high-purine foods. I don't understand the basis for proscribed "avoids." Is it merely that they are low-purine?

But that is not my primary question. It is why the elimination diet allows H-G avoids? As an H-G I am to avoid zucchini, yams, and sweet potatoes. But these are all on the elimination diet.

One answer that I've contemplated is that the elmination diet is merely to discover allergies, not metabolic type. But this answer seems suspect, since the point of the elimination diet is primarily to eliminate symptoms. Presumably the cause of one's symptoms is, at least in part, the fact that one is eating a metabolically inappropriate diet.

Related to this primary question is the fact that sweet potatoes and yams are not only avoids for H-G's but Candidiasis exacerbaters as well. Rather than aid in "clearing" they could intensify Candidiasis-related symptoms.

I ask these questions in the spirit of gratitude and the wish to understand more. I recognize that no one owes me an answer. By the way, I love sweet potatoes. Anyway, I would like to try Robert's regimen once I understand it better.

Oh, let me add another note. I discovered serendipitously about 6 years ago that my digestive problems improved markedly if I ate nothing but meat. It made an enormous difference in my well-being. Basically I had diarrhea constantly before that. The meat allowed me to control the diarrhea completely.

But my other significant digestive symptom has proved more truculent. I burp all the time. Eating mostly meat does not help. I have tried the ER4YT diet for more than 6 months, and actually visited Dr. D'Adamo's office (and was treated by a partner of his). I told him I was an AB. He did not tell me to reduce my meat, merely to eliminate the AB avoids. I haven't seen any real improvement. So I think that ER4YT is not for me, and, generalizing, not for everyone.

I have been doing some form of Skilled Relaxation for years. I haven't yet tested it with biofeedback. I don't want to sound like a bellyacher ((:-)) but here's my problem with relaxation: my symptoms sometimes make it nearly impossible.

I don't need a machine to tell me that when I am burping I am not in a relaxed state. I have found that burping interferes with some activities more than others. I find it very hard to concentrate on difficult material that I am trying to study, when I am burping. I find it torture (well, I exaggerate a little) to job when burping, and gave up jogging a year after running a marathon. I find most strenuous exercise uncomfortable when burping, so now walking is my exercise of choice. And I find it very hard to relax when burping. It's a chicken and egg issue. If I could relax my LGS would be better and I wouldn't burp. But I burp so I can't relax, so I can't overcome my LGS, so I can't stop burping. (Another aside: I tried Ginger Root Juice for 6 weeks to no avail. But I never had GERD.)

I do find that when I am distracted by mindless activities my burping is not much of an inconvenience at all, e.g. the activities I do at my desk job all day, or watching TV. But mindlessness has not been the goal of my relaxation practices.

Well, that's my story. I love the support and warmth this board exudes and hope that perhaps I will have the opportunity to help others the way this board has helped me.

Ignacio


Re: ER4YT - Dr. Kelly?

Posted by Bill H on August 09, 1998 at 16:06:35:

In Reply to: Another Hunter-Gatherer Question posted by Ignacio on August 09, 1998 at 15:30:26:

Ignacio,

This has nothing to do with your question at all, except that I was wondering if the doctor you saw about ER4YT was doctor Kelly. I wanted to know how your experience was and if you think it is worth it to go see him. I ask because I have an appointment with him and I'm trying to come up with the $325 to pay for it, and I was just wondering if it was worth it. Is he anything special as a naturopath, because I have Naturopath's near my house and they only cost $190, not to mention the travel time and expense I would save. If the only difference between Doctor Kelly and other naturopaths is the ER4YT diet, than I can go to my own naturopath and incorporate the diet by reading the book, right?

Just wondering what you thought about that. Thanks for the help.

Bill H


Re: Another Hunter-Gatherer Question

Posted by Robert McFerran on August 10, 1998 at 12:29:30:

In Reply to: Another Hunter-Gatherer Question posted by Ignacio on August 09, 1998 at 15:30:26:

Ignacio,

Here is your previous post and here is my reply. I've found that I have to hit the 'reload' button on my web browser at the beginning of every session so I can see all the notes. Your previous post might 're-appear' if you do the same.

Posted by Ignacio on August 08, 1998 at 13:40:02:

In Reply to: Re: Robert, ELIMINATION DIET? posted by Robert McFerran on August 07, 1998 at 18:15:15:

Robert:

Is the elimination diet solely structured to detect allergens? I thought it was also used to determine metabolic type.

If the latter hypothesis is true, I am confused. I am hunter-gather (H-G) since my glucose tolerance test showed I am hypoglycemic (as you define it). As an H-G I shouldn't have yams, zucchini or peaches. But I am supposed to eat these when doing the elimination diet. How will I "clear" if I am eating an avoid?

Posted by Robert McFerran on August 09, 1998 at 00:10:19:

In Reply to: Re: Robert, ELIMINATION DIET? posted by Ignacio on August 08, 1998 at 13:40:02:

Ignacio,

The question that you bring up is one that has troubled me enough to lose several hours of sleep!

As you have noted the elimination diet not only contains hypo-allergenic foods but it is also decidedly 'light' and would favor the metabolic needs of an Agriculturist metabolism. Note that it contains some foods on the recommended as well as some foods for the avoid for each metabolic type to give some 'buffering' action.

I have considered creating two elimination diets. One for each metabolic type. The problem is that if you guess wrong and go with the H-G elimination diet and you are actually an Agriculturist the diet would not reveal anything.

The converse (happily) is not true.

You can successfully use the rather 'light' elimination diet if you possess a H-G metabolism. You will find that you will have to eat the fish 3-4 times a day to maintain energy level while avoiding overly excessive amounts of fruit and yam/sweet potato.

Once you have 'cleared' and begin testing foods you can displace some of the 'avoid' foods as you find no reaction to the newly re-introduced 'recommended' foods. As you make this conversion you will remain 'clear' and find that the foods that you are eating give you more staying power (i.e. you can eat less and go longer in between meals).

If you are SURE that you are a H-G (as some folks have played with the metabolic diets before running the eimination diet)add lamb and olive oil to your list of safe foods on the elimination diet. Pull out the yam/sweet potato, zucchinni and peaches. This will speed the entire process.

Realize that when I use the concept of the elimination diet and the metabolic diet in the protocol section of my book that I'm trying to draw a straight line list of directions that can be used by everyone. As you point out -- everyone ain't the same. Right now I'm considering using just the one elimination diet. It will also serve as a diagnostic tool for the next phase (identifying metabolic type) primarily by how much fish is needed to maintain energy level during the first phase.

As you might guess Agriculturists who don't need purines will do well eating the fish once a day or less. Mixed and
Hunter-Gather types will find that the purine containing fish is key to maintaining energy level. Without it they will be hungry
within an hour.

I have to admit that I've run into various problems with the elimination diet and I might consider flip flopping things by having folks try to determine metabolic type first and then running the appropriate elimination diet. The problem is that strong food allergies can give you a false read on true metabolic identity.

Most of the problems that I've experienced stem from the fact that there is something on the diet that the individual simply refuses to eat. This is a real problem for H-G types that don't like cod or can't get the other fish -- so they just eat the fruit and vegetables. They HAVE to eat some fish to get an ac


Re: Another Hunter-Gatherer Question

Posted by Robert McFerran on August 10, 1998 at 13:06:05:

In Reply to: Another Hunter-Gatherer Question posted by Ignacio on August 09, 1998 at 15:30:26:

Ignacio,

I'll try to answer your questions to today's post:


I accept for the moment that hunter-gatherers are prescribed high-purine foods. I don't understand the basis for prescribed "avoids." Is it merely that they are low-purine?

All of the H-G avoids are low purine but keep in mind that the important parameter is how they effected blood plasma pH after eaten and metabolized. ALL the avoids would tend to pull BLOOD PLASMA ph AWAY from optimal levels.


But that is not my primary question. It is why the elimination diet allows H-G avoids? As an H-G I am to avoid zucchini, yams, and sweet potatoes. But these are all on the elimination diet.

See my response to your prior post with the same question (next post). Since you are hypoglycemic you KNOW your metabloic type and you should go ahead and take out the zucchini, yams/sweet potatoes, and peaches. The diet would still work if you included them during the elimination diet phase.

I think one point of confusion is over the concept of 'clearing'. IMMEDIATE clearing of most symptoms will be the direct result of eliminating food allergens. Remaining symptoms usually continue to abate while energy levels gradually improve over the next 4 months when on the appropriate metabolic diet.

One answer that I've contemplated is that the elimination diet is merely to discover allergies, not metabolic type. But this answer seems suspect, since the point of the elimination diet is primarily to eliminate symptoms. Presumably the cause of one's symptoms is, at least in part, the fact that one is eating a metabolically inappropriate diet.


You are correct that the elimination diet is used to DETECT hidden food allergens. Fortunately you will be able to detect them if there is ANY marginal improvement in symptoms (in other words you don't have to clear ALL your symptoms before you can detect hidden food allergens -- you just have to feel MARGINALLY better). So remember the point of the elimination diet is there for DETECTION of hidden food allergies and happily some symptoms clear at the same time. Leaky gut and lack of energy are directly related to and at least partially CREATE by a diet that is mismatched to inherited metabolic type.


Related to this primary question is the fact that sweet potatoes and yams are not only avoids for H-G's but Candidiasis exacerbaters as well. Rather than aid in "clearing" they could intensify Candidiasis-related symptoms.

They won't overly exacerbate candidiasis-related symptoms BUT they will prevent you from the long term resolution of a candida problem. I'll have a lot to say about yeast -- and it will be different from what the Alternative Medicine community has offered (since it hasn't worked). Remember that the diets that I have posted are from Dr. Wiley's book BioBalance. Mine will have a bit of a different 'take'. I do find it amazing that Dr. Wiley observed that those eating canned foods had difficulties overcoming their candida problems where those that only ate foods fresh and in their WHOLE form did much better. I only know of one doctor that has not only prescribed but stresses an exclusive WHOLE FOODS DIET as part of a comprehensive anti-candida plan and that is Dr. Stoll.

Bob


Re: Another Hunter-Gatherer Question

Posted by Walt Stoll on August 10, 1998 at 16:27:34:

In Reply to: Another Hunter-Gatherer Question posted by Ignacio on August 09, 1998 at 15:30:26:

Dear Ignacio,

Just by sharing what you have here, you cannot help but have helped others relate to your struggle. You would be surprised how much even that can help!

I have seen many people caught in your same "catch 22".
Most of them responded very favorably to doing something about the "readiness" from outside the bodymind. THEN, while they were much better, their skilled relaxation technique could take up from where they left off.

Rolfing would be a great thing for you to do (10 sessions). Even getting a deep, total-body, therapeutic massage 3 times a week for 2 weeks, would get you enough of a head start that your symptoms would be better for a few weeks or months. It is during this period of symptoms relief, that doing a perfect skilled relaxation twice a day will do the most good & prolong your relief.

Let us know how you do. You are on the right track.

Walt



Re: Another Hunter-Gatherer Question

Posted by Ignacio on August 10, 1998 at 22:18:38:

In Reply to: Re: Another Hunter-Gatherer Question posted by Walt Stoll on August 10, 1998 at 16:27:34:

Thanks for the suggestion, Walt. I will look into Rolfers and masseur/ses.

Ignacio



Re: Another Hunter-Gatherer Question

Posted by Ignacio on August 10, 1998 at 22:20:49:

In Reply to: Re: Another Hunter-Gatherer Question posted by Robert McFerran on August 10, 1998 at 13:06:05:

Robert:
Thanks for the response. Sorry I missed the first time you tried to answer me.

I have ordered Dr. Wiley's BioBalance. I hope it's still available and look forward to learning more about this stuff. Thanks for turning me on to it.

Ignacio


Re: ER4YT - Dr. Kelly?

Posted by Ignacio on August 10, 1998 at 22:22:00:

In Reply to: Re: ER4YT - Dr. Kelly? posted by Bill H on August 09, 1998 at 16:06:35:

Bill:
I have chosen to repond to you privately on this one.
Ignacio


Bob McF meat&blood chem

Posted by Martha Kent on August 11, 1998 at 10:38:38:

Hi Bob: Because of hypoglycemia, I have been eating
meat twice a day for over a year and since you wrote about
the mixed type diet, a week ago Iincreased it to three plus an egg. Have great energy now. Blood chem from 3 weeks
ago came back lowest cholesterol ever, 185. and very good
HDL and LDL. I am taking chelation too, which may make a
difference. However my BUN is 27 with 7-19 normal, the
SGOT is 35 u/l with 12-29 normal, and calcium is low 7.6 mg/dl with 8.5-10.1 normal. Other things o.k. Is this
usual? 2nd question: you list many meats as candida
inducing. I found turkey franks with no added sugar, are
they ok? What is there in canned tuna in oil and some other
canned fish you have with an asterick. Thanks, Martha



Re: Bob McF meat&blood chem

Posted by Robert McFerran on August 11, 1998 at 14:34:22:

In Reply to: Bob McF meat&blood chem posted by Martha Kent on August 11, 1998 at 10:38:38:

Martha,

Since I'm not a physician I'm not going to comment on your blood work values other than to say that my BUN was slightly elevated after I started the H-G diet but normalized later.

Since Dr. Stoll is both a physician and knowledgable about chelation perhaps he can share some insight.

Unfortunately turkey franks usually contains preservatives -- especially nitrates. If they are 'clean' they're o.k.

Anything out of a can is potentially candida inducing from Dr. Wiley's observations.

I like that 185 cholesterol number. Your HDL/LDL ratio should have improved also.

Bob


Starting the Elimination Diet

Posted by Pam on August 13, 1998 at 00:45:01:

Bob,

I moved our email correspondence (below) to the bulletin board. I'm certain I can use the support found here and if others can be helped as well, that's wonderful.

Well, I am starting the diet tonight. I ate my last meal, including a final dose of some of the things I know I'm addicted to [;-)]. I've shopped for all the elimination diet foods and am about to drink a delicious magnesium citrate cocktail. There's no turning back now. By the way, I went to 8 different stores looking for Alka Seltzer Gold. No luck.
Lots of Alka Seltzer, none gold. Do you have any suggestions? And, I think you might be right that I'm "cycling". There is no question that my reactions to coffee and my cravings for sugar and chocolate intensify pre-menstrually.

I will plan to post my progress daily and will include your name in the subject line. I can't thank you enough for your willingness to to be there. It makes a huge difference.

Warm regards,
Pam

------------------------------------------------------------

Pam,

You will understand more as we go forward. It only took me about 5 years but I assure you that now it is QUITE lucid in my mind about what is happening and the sequence that it is happening -- which leads me to your first question.

> I have recently learned (through elimination while on the > blood type diet) that I have an allergy to dairy. I also >> have repeated yeast infections. I'm pretty confident that > I have LGS. Does it make sense for me to do the
elimination diet and check for food allergies before the
> LGS is taken care of, or should I wait until after?

There is no way that you will get over your LGS until you eliminate major food allergens. You see the continued consumption of major food allergens cause the continued 'altered' immune response. We need to get away from
this 'altered' immunity and normalize back to a normal immune response. This 'altered' immunity is the reason why you have chronic vaginal yeast overgrowth.

> Can you help me determine my metabolic type? How do I get > access to the appropriate diet once my metabolic type is determined?
>
> Here are my answers to the questions I have seen you ask others.
>
> I'm somewhere between A & B on the coffee question. I
drink it daily. definitely hooked. Some days I love it. Some > days it makes me feel bad.

If you are pre-menstrual you could be 'cycling' metabolically. Perhaps the reason for different reactions to coffee on different days.

The elimination diet will give strong clues to your metabolic type. If you are a Hunter-Gather you'll find that if you don't eat some fish with every meal that you'll be hungry within two hours. If you are an Agriculturist
you'll find that you feel fine when just eating the vegetables and perhaps only have fish for dinner.

Until you get through withdrawl I'd suggest that ALL of you meals consist of a portion of fish, vegetables and a small amount of fruit.

>Last question. If you have the time to work with me, would you prefer to do it on Dr. Stoll's BB or by email?

I think that you will get more support from others if you use the BB and others will learn from your experience. But of course I'll help you via
e-mail too.

Bob




Re: Starting the Elimination Diet

Posted by Linda Hynds on August 13, 1998 at 07:43:41:

In Reply to: Starting the Elimination Diet posted by Pam on August 13, 1998 at 00:45:01:

Pam,
I started two days ago and you WILL NEED that AlkaSeltzer Gold! I could not find it at any of the stores here. They did special order it for me. You might want to call several of your stores on the phone and see which one can get it the fastest. Good luck to you.


Namaste` Linda



Re: Starting the Elimination Diet

Posted by Robert McFerran on August 13, 1998 at 09:33:24:

In Reply to: Starting the Elimination Diet posted by Pam on August 13, 1998 at 00:45:01:

Thanks for putting this on the BB.

Good luck. Hopefully you'll be feeling worse within the first 24 hours :)

Bob


Re: Starting the Elimination Diet

Posted by Pam on August 13, 1998 at 13:09:02:

In Reply to: Re: Starting the Elimination Diet posted by Linda Hynds on August 13, 1998 at 07:43:41:

Thanks for the tip Linda. I called the pharmacy right away. Thay told me that if it's in stock with the distributor I'll have it by tomorrow. Of course you and Bob are not making me look forward to what's ahead of me. :)

Linda, I'd really like to hear more about your experience, either here or by email, if you're comfortable sharing it. I'm just trying to stay focused on the big picture and how much better I'll feel when my body begins to heal. Thank you both for being there.

warm regards,
Pam


Robert: Day One

Posted by Pam on August 13, 1998 at 21:10:28:

In Reply to: Re: Starting the Elimination Diet posted by Robert McFerran on August 13, 1998 at 09:33:24:

Hello Bob,

Well it hasn't been quite 24 hours, but I'm going out tonight, so I thought I'd post now. So far, so good. I've had a mild headache all day and I've been sweating like crazy. I've eaten 2 meals so far at about 11:30 and 3:30. Both we're a mix of fish, veggies and fruit, with about 3X more carbs than protein. And I'm drinking lots of water. I'll post again tomorrow, if I'm not in too much pain. :)

Namaste,
Pam


Re:Elimination Diet day 4 Results!

Posted by Lori Reid on August 14, 1998 at 18:20:24:

In Reply to: Re: Starting the Elimination Diet posted by Pam on August 13, 1998 at 13:09:02:

Hi Pam, Linda & Bob
I'm on day 4. I was kinda sick on days 1 & 3, sick as a dog on day 2 and feeling some clearing of symptoms today, though I still feel a little weak, probably because the elim diet is too light for my metabolism. The AMAZING result is that I've lost 12 pounds since monday (day 0). If the weight loss continues to be that easy I'd say Bob has a best seller in his book on that part alone!
So when can I possibly add some more interesting meat? I've been eating mostly the fish with a small amount of fruit and or veges and sometimes only the fish. (I ate most of the lamb already and the store only gets it on request).
Good Luck Pam & Linda! Bob told me that bad withdrawl is a good sign, that's what kept me going there for a while.

Thanks again Bob!

Lori


Re:Elimination Diet day 4 Results!

Posted by Robert McFerran on August 14, 1998 at 20:40:21:

In Reply to: Re:Elimination Diet day 4 Results! posted by Lori Reid on August 14, 1998 at 18:20:24:

Lori,

Food allergens create inflammation. Inflammation creates edema (swelling) and water retention. I don't know if you've been watching your ankles but they should be a lot less puffy as you dispense with this water weight.

You definately are still clearing and you should continue with the 'safe' foods. Let's see how you feel tommorrow and I'll let you know if you are ready to test some new foods. It DOES get boring doesn't it!

When someone compares the differences in the way they feel on days 2 and three with the way they feel when they clear (days 5 and 6) they can't help but say "why didn't somebody tell me about this before!" The weight loss that you've had is not unusual.

I did want to mention that whenever you eat any meat or fish you should always have a bit of carbohydrate -- one bite of carrot or celery would be sufficient.

Let me know what meats that you would like to add next?

Bob

p.s. -- congratulations on hanging in there when things got tough. As you now know there is a lot more involved with the elimination diet experience than eating 'different' foods.


Robert: Day Two

Posted by Pam on August 14, 1998 at 22:56:04:

In Reply to: Re: Starting the Elimination Diet posted by Robert McFerran on August 13, 1998 at 09:33:24:

Hello Bob,

Day two is coming to a close and I believe I'm going to survive. Headache is ongoing with moments of being severe, but mostly not too bad. Lots of churning in my stomach. Fatigue. Lots of cravings (I sure would love some garlic and olive oil to go with my zucchini). I'm drinking gallons of water and sweating like crazy. My meals are pretty much like day one...three carbs to one protein. I've eaten more snacks today and increased my protein at dinner because my hunger was up. Lots of elimination, all liquid. Also, I've been using both the hot tub and sauna both days, it seems to make me feel better.

Last, but not least, one of the best things about this experience so far has been the support that I've gotten from others who are going through it at the same time...people who don't think I'm crazy. Thank you.

On to day three...

Namaste,
Pam


Re: Robert: Day Two

Posted by Robert McFerran on August 14, 1998 at 23:08:33:

In Reply to: Robert: Day Two posted by Pam on August 14, 1998 at 22:56:04:

Pam,

Sounds like you and your body are both doing a good job eliminating. Day three is going to be rough BUT day four you should start to see some clearing. REMEMBER -- THE WORSE THAT YOU FEEL NOW, THE BETTER YOU'LL FEEL LATER.

No oil yet. Keep eating the fish with every meal and eat as many meals a day as you want.

All you brave souls that are going through withdrawl right now sure sound active. I just had enough energy to get up and eat and go back to bed. Sometimes I think sleeping through days 2 and 3 is the best way to go!

Bob


Re:Elimination Diet day 5 Results!

Posted by Lori Reid on August 15, 1998 at 21:02:59:

In Reply to: Re:Elimination Diet day 4 Results! posted by Robert McFerran on August 14, 1998 at 20:40:21:

First, how I'm feeling: Towards the end of the day yesterday I started getting some pretty good pain in my feet legs & hips. Between that and Kirsten's teething (she was up several times) it was a pretty restless night. I woke up with BEFORE the alarm went off (very unusual) with a slight headache which has come and gone all day. The joint pain was medium through the day although I was able to sort of kneel without using my hands much for support (also very unusual). Still sort of weak especially if I don't eat the fish at regular intervals 3-4X per day.

Next, I read your response to Pam and panic struck when you said no oils yet. I had read in a couple of other posts where you told people that olive oil would be ok. Confession time: I've been using a little bit of olive oil in a non stick pan to sort of fry my fish. Now I'm scared that I've messed the whole thing up. Also, some further reading tells me I've probably been too heavy on the fruit. Sometimes both peach and pear with a meal, haven't even eaten any sweet potato/yams yet though.

Anyway, I'm ready to hang in there until I clear, don't want to mess up the results by adding stuff too soon. When I do though I'm thinking a nice rib eye, then maybe some nuts, then maybe bacon and then eggs.

Enough for now. Thanks for all you've done!!! I've always thought what a great service to mankind it would be if I could come up with a real solution to Rheumatoid Arthritis and all its related stuff. But I'm just as happy that it was you that figured it out, I'll just help spread the word!!

Thanks!
Lori


Re:Elimination Diet day 5 Results!

Posted by Robert McFerran on August 15, 1998 at 22:19:07:

In Reply to: Re:Elimination Diet day 5 Results! posted by Lori Reid on August 15, 1998 at 21:02:59:

Lori,

Don't worry about the olive oil. Since I'm pretty sure you are a Hunter-Gatherer metabolic type you'll still clear. That might not happen though if you were an EXTREME Agriculturist.

Stay with the safe foods for another day to see if we can get you to clear some more. Keep eating some fish or lamb at every meal and go lighter on the fruit. About 1/2 of a pear would be appropriate.

Let me know how you do tommorrow and thaw out a ribeye!

Bacon will be one of the last things to test since it's laden with nitrates. When you test the nuts the portion size is only one handful so we'll want to get other foods that could be eaten in larger portions first.

We'll want to omit some lectin containing foods so tell me your blood type again (if you know it).

Finally, don't get depressed if you don't completely clear all your symptoms. Unfortunately most of the folks with rheumatoid arthritis also have a candida problem complicating things. Don't worry about it for now. We will get to it. Keep up with the good work on the diet and keep a diary of what you are eating and symptoms.

Bob




Robert: Day Three

Posted by Pam on August 16, 1998 at 02:23:05:

In Reply to: Re: Starting the Elimination Diet posted by Robert McFerran on August 13, 1998 at 09:33:24:

Hello Robert,

As day three draws to a close, I can honestly say it hasn't been that bad. Mild headache most of the day, a few bouts of muscle aches mostly in my upper back and arms, occassionally stronger aches in my head that seem to come shortly after I've eaten, lightheadedness, spaciness (my son wants to know if I'll find my brain again when the elimination diet is done :) sometimes a little blurry vision. I also noticed a couple of bouts of sneezing after I ate. As for diet, I've pretty much stayed with the same stuff...trout, veggies and fruit. My favorite meal today was a cold one...cold poached trout, raw carrots, celery, and fruit. By the way, I read Lori's post and now think I may be eating too much fruit. I've been eating 1-2 pieces with each meal and sometimes snacking on fruit too. So I'm probably totaling 5-6 pieces a day. Should I cut back. Also, I've eaten yams a couple of times, but I don't really like them (or rutebegas) so I plan to drop those two foods. My blood type is A and I think yams are lectin producing for me.

Thanks for being there. I'll post again tomorrow.

Namaste,
Pam


Re:Elimination Diet day 5 Results!

Posted by Pam on August 16, 1998 at 02:46:51:

In Reply to: Re:Elimination Diet day 5 Results! posted by Lori Reid on August 15, 1998 at 21:02:59:

Hi Lori,

Just wanted to let you know that I'm really grateful that you're posting your progress here. Even though our experiences may be slightly different, it's encouraging for me to read your progress. It kind of motivates me to look forward to the next day. And it seems like we are raising complementary issues with Robert. This is such a great opportunity to learn. Can I ask what state you live in? I'm just really amazed that, thanks to Walt's site, I get to do this with people all over the country. I'm in California.

Keep up the good work. Maybe Robert will let you get a taste of that rib eye soon.

warm wishes,
Pam


Re: Robert: Day Three

Posted by Robert McFerran on August 16, 1998 at 12:08:42:

In Reply to: Robert: Day Three posted by Pam on August 16, 1998 at 02:23:05:

Pam,

You are doing fine. Brain fog is definately a withdrawl symptom. Remember to keep a log of how you feel and what you ate since you won't be able to recall much. I think you are doing o.k. with the fruit so just stay the course. You should start to feel better tommorrow morning.

Dr. D'Adamo's dislike of yams for A's is NOT based on him doing any lectin testing -- rather it is based on he and his father's observations. I don't disagree with their observations -- only their conclusions. Someday you might find that yams/sweet potato are regulars in your diet.

Pam, eat a meal without any fish and let me know how many hours you can go without eating again. If NOT EATING FISH causes hunger and fatigue faster I'll want you to start testing foods from the recommended section of the Agriculturist diet after you clear (usually day 5 or 6).

Bob




Re: Robert: Day Three

Posted by Robert McFerran on August 16, 1998 at 12:13:46:

In Reply to: Re: Robert: Day Three posted by Robert McFerran on August 16, 1998 at 12:08:42:

Pam,

Good grief! I must be the one with brain fog this morning!

IF you have more staying power after eating a meal with fish than with eating a meal without fish you are probably a Hunter-Gatherer. If you do just fine without the fish and notice no difference you are probably an Agriculturist (just the opposite of what I said in the prior post).

So eat a meal without the fish and see if it still delivers the same amount of energy as a meal including fish.

Bob


Re:Elimination Diet day 5 Results!

Posted by Lori Reid on August 16, 1998 at 19:59:02:

In Reply to: Re:Elimination Diet day 5 Results! posted by Robert McFerran on August 15, 1998 at 22:19:07:

Hi Pam & Bob,

Pam, it helps me too to see how you are doing. (Although it created a moment of concern) This is good especially if you turn out to be an agriculturist, then people will get to see both extremes. Best of Luck! P.S. The ribeye is thawing!!

Bob, I do feel a little better today, less joint pain, maybe a bit more energy, sinuses a bit clearer, little less cravings. My eyes seem drier but I've been wearing my contacts (overnight kind) since yesterday morning. I hadn't been able to wear them overnight much since my allergies kicked in this summer.

I'm blood type O and I won't get into the story of what the dr sent when I asked for my blood test etc results so I don't know the cholesterol or uric acid numbers yet. No wonder I fired that guy.

I was wondering, if the ribeye goes ok then am I cleared to eat any cut of beef? Would I still need to mix up the meats (how often could I eat beef in other words)? Maybe I should test some chicken thighs next after beef?

Also I still have that stool test to send to Great Smokies lab just tell me when to do it.

Thanks!!!!!

Lori


Re: Brain Fog & this is Day 6

Posted by Lori Reid on August 16, 1998 at 20:18:51:

In Reply to: Re:Elimination Diet day 5 Results! posted by Robert McFerran on August 15, 1998 at 22:19:07:

Pam, As you can see my brain fog is alive and well too. (Plus trying to do this while a toddler is pulling on your leg isn't recommended, you tend to leave things out and forget what you wanted to say). I live in Nebraska now. I lived in Arizona for 9 years and I miss it a lot. I visited Calif several times when I lived in AZ (but never the Grand Canyon, am I stupid or what) and I like CA too.

Gotta go, toddler and pets are calling!

Lori


Re:Elimination Diet day 5 Results!

Posted by Robert McFerran on August 16, 1998 at 23:19:34:

In Reply to: Re:Elimination Diet day 5 Results! posted by Lori Reid on August 16, 1998 at 19:59:02:

Lori,

Any cut of beef will be fine. Testing the chicken thighs early on would be good too. Basically look at any of the recommended foods on the H-G diet (EXCEPT THE GRAINS AND MILK AND POTATO) and begin adding them to your diet on day 7. I would like you to go one more day with the safe foods to get some extra clearing.

I don't want you to run the stool test yet. Instead I'd like you to get a candida antibody test done by a company called Antibody Assays -- check out their web page at www.antibodyassay.com

Bob


Robert: Day Four

Posted by Pam on August 17, 1998 at 01:38:02:

In Reply to: Re: Starting the Elimination Diet posted by Robert McFerran on August 13, 1998 at 09:33:24:

Hi Bob,

Today has been a pretty good day. My symptoms were mild...muscle aches, brain fogginess, light headache, churning stomach with some gas. My energy level was better. Two out of my three meals were veggies and fruit only. It took me about 4-4.5 hours to get hungry after eating, about the same as when I ate fish. Let me know if there's any more information I can provide. I look forward to my next set of instructions.

Thanks again for being there. I know we "eliminators" are keeping you busy and I really appreciate your commitment to helping others heal.

Namaste,
Pam



Re: Robert: Day Four

Posted by Robert McFerran on August 17, 1998 at 12:59:53:

In Reply to: Robert: Day Four posted by Pam on August 17, 1998 at 01:38:02:

Pam,

You are having all the symptoms of waning withdrawl and increasing clearing.

Nothing that you've told me so far (I think) has given me a strong indication of your metbolic type. I'll apologize in advance if I've already asked these questions:

1) What happens if you have several cups of coffee or other caffeinated drink without food?

2) How long can you usually go after breakfast without having another meal?

3) What is your cholesterol (including HDL/LDL ratio) as well as your uric acid? Your doc probably has these -- if not don't sweat it.

4) What is your blood type?

Finally, stay with the safe foods for now. It sounds as if you need at least another day of clearing.

What is happening to your weight on the elimination diet?

Bob


Re: Robert: Day Four

Posted by Pam on August 17, 1998 at 13:56:13:

In Reply to: Re: Robert: Day Four posted by Robert McFerran on August 17, 1998 at 12:59:53:

Good day Bob,

I'm feeling quite energetic this morning. One thing I don't understand...I've been up for 3 hours, haven't been at all hungry yet. All I've had so far is water and I'm quite comfortable. It's about 11:00am and I'm getting ready to eat my first meal.

Here are the answers to your questions:
1. Typically I drink coffee daily and really enjoy it. Occassionally, my metabolism races with it, but not usually. I often drink coffee in the morning with no food and do just fine. We talked earlier about the probability that I "cycle" as I have increased craving for caffeine and chocolate premenstrually and it does seem to have a stronger affect on me then.
2. As I've been saying, I often don't eat when I first wake up. It's not unusual for my first meal to be more of a brunch than a breakfast. Once I've eaten that meal, I would say it's typically anywhere from 3-5 hours before I eat another meal, although I might have a small snack before then.
3. When last checked, my total cholesteral was 180. LDL=119. HDL=46. Uric Acid=4.3 (3.9 in an earlier check).
4. My blood type is A+

I have not weighed myself since I started the elimination diet. I threw my scale away years ago so I wouldn't be obsessive about my weight. I do have access to a scale at the YMCA where I exercise. I'll go there today and weigh in and let you know.

Something that I haven't told you that might be pertinent to my metabolism is that I am hypothyroid. I have taken synthroid for 17 years.

Thanks,
Pam



Re: Robert: Day Four

Posted by Robert McFerran on August 17, 1998 at 18:30:39:

In Reply to: Re: Robert: Day Four posted by Pam on August 17, 1998 at 13:56:13:

Pam,

Thanks for refreshing my memory.

I think that you should first try adding the recommended foods from the Agriculturist diet (including coffee).

I think yours shows the possible complexity of trying to figure out the foods to which you are best adapted.

First we eliminate food allergen with a 'safe' diet. Second we guess-timate a metabolic type (Agriculturist) and then watch for the phenomenon of 'metabolic cycling' as you move through the month. Finally avoid a handful of lectin containing foods that are known to agglutinate type A blood (Milk, Kidney Beans, Lima Beans, Wheat and Tomato). Of course all the while you are benefiting from eating exclusively WHOLE foods.

Tell me what foods off of the Agriculturist diet that you would like to introduce. I'd like you to stay on the elimination diet for at least one more day. It does seem that you have cleared fairly rapidly.

Your note that you are hypothyroid doesn't really suggest anything about metabolism but it does strongly suggest that you've been dealing with leaky gut syndrome for a long time.
You might want to ask Dr. Stoll about the advantages/disadvantages of synthroid versus armour thyroid supplement.

Bob




Robert: Day Four weight loss

Posted by Pam on August 17, 1998 at 18:37:04:

In Reply to: Re: Robert: Day Four posted by Robert McFerran on August 17, 1998 at 12:59:53:

Bob,

This is an addendum to my earlier post.

I went to the gym and weighed myself. I have only lost 3 pounds. This amount could even be within the range of normal weight fluctuation for me, especially since I'm just post-menses. I confess to being a little jealous of Lori's 12-pound loss, but mostly I'm curious as to why I haven't lost more. I'm definitely eating less than usual with no sugar, no fats, no grains. On the other hand, I haven't been exercising like usual the past four days.

Anyway, as for the rest of my day, I'm free of headaches but have had a fair amount of muscle aches. I also seem to be dealing with some new acid indigestion, which went into full swing while I was on the treadmill.

I look forward to hearing from you.

Namaste,
Pam


Re: Robert: Day Four weight loss

Posted by Robert McFerran on August 17, 1998 at 20:08:26:

In Reply to: Robert: Day Four weight loss posted by Pam on August 17, 1998 at 18:37:04:

Pam,

Take it easy. I usually suggest nothing more strenuous that a fresh air walk for folks on the elimination diet. The problem is that if you have aches and pains from exercise it will be difficult to distinguish the same from a reaction to a food during the testing phase.

I'm not surprised by the difference in you weight loss compared to Lori's. As I mentioned before almost all of this weight loss is due to the clearing of inflammation and edema. Since Lori has arthritis it doesn't surprise me that reducing her larger scale inflammation would result in a significant weight loss.

Once again don't overdo things. We are putting your body through quite a few changes as you have already pointed out.

Bob


Re: Robert: Day Four weight loss

Posted by Lori Reid on August 17, 1998 at 21:10:02:

In Reply to: Robert: Day Four weight loss posted by Pam on August 17, 1998 at 18:37:04:

Pam,

One thing I haven't mentioned is that I figure that I was 70 pounds overweight to begin with. That probably makes a difference!

Hang in there!

Lori


Re:Elimination Diet day 7 and Beyond!!

Posted by Lori Reid on August 17, 1998 at 21:23:56:

In Reply to: Re:Elimination Diet day 4 Results! posted by Lori Reid on August 14, 1998 at 18:20:24:

Hi Bob,

Last night after I posted I went outside with Kirsten and the pets and then discovered that I felt like going for a walk. We went for probably 1/2 mile, might have gone farther but Kirsten got tired of being strapped into the stroller. Then as the night went on I almost felt a surge of energy! I was going around picking up after everybody instead of falling into bed at the first chance. Also, my joint pain seemed to be improving rather than worsening like it usually does at the end of a day. Today my joint pain is very minimal. I did have an "eyeball" headache but I think that was from still having my extended contacts in. It got better after I took them out.

Ready to get into the HG Diet! I'll start working on the skilled relaxation & more reading while Kirsten naps in the coming days.

Thanks!!!

Lori



Re:Elimination Diet day 7 and Beyond!!

Posted by Robert McFerran on August 17, 1998 at 21:32:16:

In Reply to: Re:Elimination Diet day 7 and Beyond!! posted by Lori Reid on August 17, 1998 at 21:23:56:

Lori,

Sounds like it is time to expand into a truly H-G diet. As you know the elimination diet certainly doesn't have the fat and purine content that an EXTREME Hunter-Gatherer metabolism would require.

Start adding foods but avoid wheat, corn, milk and soy products for now.

Bob


For Robert McFerran: meat/fat for H-G's

Posted by Jenny on August 17, 1998 at 11:10:40:

Robert, I'm following the diet discussions and the "eliminators" with fascination! As I think about my own eating patterns and how they relate to energy level, I'm wondering if the hunter-gatherer types, which I have no doubt I am, need the meat at each meal, or just some fat??
I've recently found that whereas a big bowl of oatmeal in the morning leaves me hungry in an hour or two, if I add some butter, it lasts a lot longer. Meat lasts the best, but I wonder how much it has to do with the fat content? Thanks for your very generous contributions to this board.


Re: For Robert McFerran: meat/fat for H-G's

Posted by Robert McFerran on August 17, 1998 at 12:45:52:

In Reply to: For Robert McFerran: meat/fat for H-G's posted by Jenny on August 17, 1998 at 11:10:40:

Jenny,

Your observations are quite insightful.

Fat content IS important in buffering the Hunter-gatherer metabolism as is cholesterol. Hunter-gatherers are well adapted to fat and cholesterol and metabolize it well.

The key ingredient that makes everything fall into place however is PURINES. Purines are found in some vegetables and all meats. They are found in higher concentrations in dark meats/fishes and greatest concentration in organ meats.

Purines play a critical part in creating energy intermediates for Hunter-gatherers.

Hunter-gatherers that don't eat a purine rich diet with adequate fat and cholesterol are condemned to 'bonking' and strong sugar cravings within hours of every meal.

Personally I buy only the fattier cuts of meat (rib and t-bone steak). I use olive oil liberally to sautee meats and vegetables to ensure that I get enough fat into each meal. While it's good I find that it doesn't give me quite as much 'staying power' like cholesterol laden animal fat. I also find that the cholesterol in eggs when added to a meat meal give good 'staying power'.

Thanks for your question. If you don't have the H-G diet with the purine rich foods let me know.

Bob




Robert: Day Five

Posted by Pam on August 17, 1998 at 22:40:55:

Hi Bob,

Just to let you know that symptoms have increased a bit as day 5 has has progressed. Lots of muscle pain in my back and neck, headache has returned, and ongoing indigestion. I guess this is all a good sign. (of course symptoms could be related to the Clinton speech and coverage : )

I look forward to receiving the agriculturist diet from you so that I can have an idea of what I'll be eating next. thank you.

Good night,
Pam


Re: Robert: Day Five

Posted by Robert McFerran on August 18, 1998 at 00:36:56:

In Reply to: Robert: Day Five posted by Pam on August 17, 1998 at 22:40:55:

Pam,

I e-mailed the agriculturist diet.

Let me know if you continue to see symptoms increase.

Are you aware at what point of your cycle that you are in right now?

Generally in a 28 day cycle:

Menstrual is days 1-4
Pre-ovulatory (sometimes called post menstrual) is days 5-14
Premenstrual is days 15-28

What day are you in? I find many women begin seeing a shift in the way they feel a day before they move into a different phase of their cycle.


Re: Agriculturist Diet

Posted by Aaron Wieland on August 18, 1998 at 16:00:46:

In Reply to: Re: Agriculturist Diet posted by Phyllis A. on August 18, 1998 at 09:54:16:

Robert posted the Agriculturalist diet last July -- click on the link below.

Cheers,

-- Aaron Wieland



Robert: Day Six

Posted by Pam on August 18, 1998 at 16:11:00:

In Reply to: Re: Robert: Day Five posted by Robert McFerran on August 18, 1998 at 00:36:56:

Hi Bob,

I am so happy to have arrived at day six. I can't tell you how much I'm looking forward to some new foods and that first cup of coffee. But for today, I'm still clearing. I wouldn't say that my symptoms have increased. I'm achy all over, including a mild headache, but the indigestion seems to have abated. As for my cycle, I'm on day seven (yes I started the elimination diet the day after I started my period.) so I'm pre-ovulatory.

Thank you for sending me the diet. I have lots of questions, but will take them a few at a time.

1. What is the best way to introduce new foods? One at a time? Certain types of foods (veggies and fruits first?) is there a maximum that should be introduced each day? Should I continue eating the "safe" foods from the elimination diet and supplement them with the new foods?
2. Im wondering about some foods not on the list like cauliflower, green beans, white or jasmine rice. Since I'm an A+ blood type with an allery to milk, I'm wondering about other forms of milk like soy milk, rice milk or goat's milk. Do they agglutenate as well? It specifies that distilled water is allowed, may I keep drinking spring water or filtered tap water? I'm also curious about the note in the typical breakfast to use freeze dried coffee. I typically buy organic coffee beans and grind them myself. I do store the beans in the freezer. Will this be OK? (please say yes)

In the name of wellness, I think I'll skip the news and listen to a BrainSync tape : )

You have my continued gratitude.

Joy and Light,
Pam


Re: Robert: Day Six

Posted by Robert McFerran on August 18, 1998 at 19:14:26:

In Reply to: Robert: Day Six posted by Pam on August 18, 1998 at 16:11:00:

Pam,

You may have cycled from an Agriculturist to Hunter-Gatherer during day 5 of your diet as you moved from menstrual to pre-ovulatory. Have you seen your symptoms increase in the past as you moved from menstrual to the pre-ovulatory part of your cycle?

If they have not you may as well begin testing foods tommorrow using the Agriculturist regimine. Add foods one at a time to breakfast, lunch and dinner. Yes, you will be adding these new 'test' foods to your list of safe foods. Once your diet is expanded enough you can drop the foods that ultimately should be metabolically avoided.

Our first order of business is to quickly expand your diet -- so avoid the potential major food allergens for now (corn, wheat, milk, and soy) and start adding the fruits and vegetables. Don't drink soy or rice milk -- the soy is not only a common allergen but high in purines (needed to be avoided by Agriculturists). Neither rice or soy milk are whole foods either. If you want to try goat milk you can test it if you can find a low fat version. Drink spring water rather than distilled or 'drinking' water.

Whole rice is o.k. but any type of beans and cauliflower are out (for now) since they are relatively high in purine content -- something that an Agriculturist metabolism needs to avoid. In fact I've found that vegetarians who also happen to be Agriculturist metabolic types all do much better once they remove or greatly reduce beans and lentils from their diet.

You can use any kind of coffee that has caffeine.

As far as the blood type diet goes -- the only foods that I think that you have to avoid due to your A blood type are Milk, Kidney Beans, Lima Beans,Wheat, and Tomato. These are the only ones that I can glean that have a specific lectin agglutination problem with A blood types.

The question remains, is Pam a metabolic 'cycler'........

I guess we'll have to stay tuned.

Bob




Re: Robert: Day Six

Posted by Robert McFerran on August 18, 1998 at 19:21:43:

In Reply to: Robert: Day Six posted by Pam on August 18, 1998 at 16:11:00:

Pam,

Sorry I forgot that you already told me that your symptoms increase pre-menstrually.

Go ahead and start testing the recommended foods from the Agriculturist diet, especially the coffee.

Bob


A few more questions

Posted by Pam on August 18, 1998 at 23:07:11:

In Reply to: Re: Robert: Day Six posted by Robert McFerran on August 18, 1998 at 19:14:26:

Hi Bob,

I'm all set to start the agriculturist diet and I'm pretty excited about it. I wonder if you could let me know how many days I should plan on before I can add a fat or meat. I'm hoping to go to a restaurant this weekend and want to know if I stick with steamed and raw fruits and veggies to start, how soon can I introduce other categories of food. Also, while the diet includes condiments, I don't see anything about spices except for Mrs. Dash's. Since I'll be eliminating salt, can I add white pepper or garlic powder or fresh or dried herbs? If so are each of these items considered a new food that has to be added in one at a time?

Thanks.

I'll be toasting you in the morning.

Pam


Re: A few more questions

Posted by Robert McFerran on August 19, 1998 at 12:54:54:

In Reply to: A few more questions posted by Pam on August 18, 1998 at 23:07:11:

Pam,

Things like pepper and herbs should be tested just like any other food. Remember if you've eating pepper repetitively in the past that it has a higher chance of being a food allergen, provoking a reaction, and keeping you from testing any new foods until you clear.

Given that, my strategy would be to add vegetables and fruits, starting with the ones that I don't eat repetitively. I would only test the light colored meats and fishes at my evening meal. You can begin this immediately.

I'm not going to say that you shouldn't go out to a restaurant BUT YOU SHOULDN'T EAT THE FOOD. You simply cannot test foods appropriately (no matter how hard you try) unless you are doing the cooking. Call the restaurant in advance and ask them if it would be o.k. for you to bring your own food (in baggies) if you are joining friends for a meal. Tell them that it's due to a medical condition. You might feel weird doing it -- but I've never had a restaurant say it was a problem if others were eating with you.

You'll be able to 'eat out' in about 2 weeks once you have tested the majority of foods.

Bob




Experience with Elimination/Metabolic diet

Posted by Linda Hynds on August 18, 1998 at 12:59:04:

Hello to all fellow member of this BB. I am posting a rather lengthy synopsis of my experience with Robert McFerran's diets in the hopes that others will learn from this. Sorry, I just couldn't condense it any more!

I have had a problem with overweight all my life. I was raised to eat meat , meat dishes, pasta, bread, dairy, little fruit and lots of desserts, snacks. That was the norm for then. Chubby babies meant healthy babies. My father owned a dairy store! I guess my parents did the best they could with the information they had at the time. When I went to nursing school, a very boring dietician taught the necessity of balancing protein, charbohydrate and fat. As I went into nursing practice, the emphasis was on elimination of fat, changing from saturated to unsaturated fat and increasing exercise to have the healthy lifestyle. I have known since I was in elementary school that I needed to lose weight (I was so embarrassed when I had to get weighed at school and was 88 pounds in fifth grade).

My menses were late onset and always irregular(shouldn't that have indicated something?). When I was grown, I tried Atkins, Stillman, fasting, Formu 3, Weight Watcher's, etc. Each dietary change left me losing a minimal amount of weight, little energy, and feeling half sick. I was, in every other respect, remarkably healthy. When others fell victim to colds and flus, I was rarely affected. I have practiced (and taught) skilled relaxation for a long time in my nursing practice - ONCE a day as that was the norm for those times! THAT is probably what really kept me going. I gave birth to four healthy children, none of whom seem to have much problem with weight, although I cringe at their diets. Well, three of their diets. My oldest daughter eats a healthy diet.

I had two episodes of severe illness, one in 1984 and another in 1993. As so many others have experienced, I was thought to have Lupus or some bizarre "connective tissue disorder". I was diagnosed with moderate to severe ososteoarthritis or perhaps a mixed type of arthritis. Believe me when I say there were times I was incapacitated due to pain. Then, late in 1995, I had hives, which eventually ended in treatment with Adrenalin and Benadryl in the emergency room for severe angioedema and loss of my voice for 2-3 days. That led me to a holistic MD who did cytotoxic testing and showed me how my white blood cells, red blood cells and platelets were being effected by sensitivities to certain foods. Since that time, I avoided nightshades, dairy and wheat. My pain essentially resolved. I was on the Protein Power diet to lose weight and control a rising blood sugar. In an effort to be healthy, I had been eating a diet high in veggies and low in chicken, fish etc., so changing to the high protein was a big change. I did lose some weight, my blood sugars returned to normal, but I still had no energy. I felt in this whole mind, body, spirit thing, something was missing or I was missing the boat somewhere.

I consulted with Walt for his health coaching and increased my skilled relaxation to TWICE a day! Things change and certainly our environment necessitates TWICE a day to discharge the effects of acummulated stress. Where had I been all those years Walt was studying, teaching and undergoing his own metamorphosis? Among other things, he advised I see a naturopath. The naturopath did some tragger therapy, and thought alot of my weight problem was due to fluid. He prescribed herbs, overheating therapy, a potassium supplement, ginseng tea for energy and stamina, the ER4YT diet and increasing my exercise. My chiropractor, a very skilled and extremely knowlegable provider, advised an in depth nutrient assay, which showed amino acid deficiencies (after consuming all that meat, fish and eggs on the Protein Power diet). This was thought to be the cause of my lack of energy. Now, maybe some answers! It wasn't as though I hadn't been trying.

I was in the process of waiting for a compounde


Re: Experience with Elimination/Metabolic diet

Posted by Pam on August 18, 1998 at 16:37:50:

In Reply to: Experience with Elimination/Metabolic diet posted by Linda Hynds on August 18, 1998 at 12:59:04:

Linda,

Thank you so much for posting your story. You and I seem to be walking a parallel path. Like you, I am a seeker on my way to wellness. It has been a lonely and discouraging journey through a jungle of doctors whose answers always seem to be one more prescription. The community found at this website is an oasis of healing, a gift, and I am humbled by the dedication, passion, and generosity of Robert and Walt.

I wish you all things wonderful as your body/mind/spirit approaches full potential.

Namaste,
Pam


Re: Experience with Elimination/Metabolic diet

Posted by Lori Reid on August 19, 1998 at 10:48:33:

In Reply to: Re: Experience with Elimination/Metabolic diet posted by Pam on August 18, 1998 at 16:37:50:

Linda & Pam,

I too, feel like I have just uncovered a huge chunk that was missing from my life! Its like the light comes on and you say of course, no wonder I was feeling so terrible!

Thanks so much Robert & Walt for helping each of us find those missing chunks in our lives!

Lori



Re: Experience with Elimination/Metabolic diet

Posted by Walt Stoll on August 19, 1998 at 12:25:43:

In Reply to: Experience with Elimination/Metabolic diet posted by Linda Hynds on August 18, 1998 at 12:59:04:

Thanks, Linda!

I hope everyone looking for dietary help will read this.

Walt



Whole foods/Elimination Diet

Posted by Lindsay on August 18, 1998 at 15:00:59:


Hi all.

Two questions, one for everyone and another primarily
for Robert:

For everyone:

Does anyone know of a good, cheap way to maintain a
whole foods diet? I've started switching to a lot
more whole foods and already my expenses are getting
to be a problem. I'm in the Washington,D.C. area soon
to be moving to Philadelphia. Does anyone know of
a chain or the names of some indpendent CHEAP whole
foods stores in those areas? Thanks.

For Robert:

Is it possible to start determining metabolic type
by trying the diets before you run the elimination
diet or would food allergens skew the results too
much?

Thanks to anyone and everyone,
Lindsay




Re: Whole foods/Elimination Diet

Posted by Robert McFerran on August 18, 1998 at 19:46:29:

In Reply to: Whole foods/Elimination Diet posted by Lindsay on August 18, 1998 at 15:00:59:

Lindsay,

I've got a very good friend here in Louisville that is currently trying to determine her metabolic type. After talking with her it became pretty obvious that she wasn't an Agriculturist. I thought that she was probably a Mixed metabolic type, but she might be a Hunter-gatherer. I started her with the H-G diet and she felt well for the first day but woke with a headache on day two -- something that she rarely has...... Further into the day she commented that she felt 'empty' as if she was fasting even though she was eating the appropriate H-G foods.

I didn't ask her to try the elimination diet because (unlike most folks) she didn't routinely ingest the major food allergens (wheat, corn, soy, milk, etc.).

So what do YOU think is happening? Withdrawl from a hidden food allergen OR an inappropriate metabolic diet? Or both!?

The answer is that I don't know the answer. My instincts tell me to have her move from the metabolic extreme of the H-G diet to the the Mixed diet but I'd rather rely on logic.

At the same time there could be a problem if someone clears from the elimination diet and moves to the wrong metabolic foods. Fortunatley this results in a slow loss of that feeling of well being that comes with clearing whereas a true food allergen creates a more immediate and powerful hyper-accute response.

If possible it's always best to run the elimination diet prior to the metabolic diet.

Thanks for a very insightful question.

Bob




Re: Whole foods/Elimination Diet

Posted by Walt Stoll on August 19, 1998 at 12:31:22:

In Reply to: Whole foods/Elimination Diet posted by Lindsay on August 18, 1998 at 15:00:59:

Hi, Lindsay.

I, personally, found that knowledge solved the cost problem for me. Once I had persisted in doing this & learning at the same time, for about 6 months, my grocery bill was less than it had been when I just ate the junk they had on the shelves. Within a year my grocery bill was less than half what it had been a year before.

Beth Loiselle's book: "The Healing Power of Whole Foods" would have been an invaluable help if it had been published at the time, I could have cut those times in less than half.

Walt



Beyond the Elimination Diet

Posted by Lori Reid on August 19, 1998 at 11:15:54:

Hi Bob,

I have only added beef and avacodo to my diet so far. Yesterday was very active and sort of stressful, but I managed to keep with the plan. My joint pain was a little worse last night but when I finally got a chance to sit down it calmed down remarkably fast. Typically after a day like yesterday I would have had leg aches and joint pain well into the night and the next day, this hasn't been the case though!

An interesting new development. Monday morning (Day 7) I felt the first twinges of a yeast infection and was sure that I had one by Tuesday morning. And, I finally realized that from December thru June while I was taking the minocin and having almost 1 yeast infection per month that it seemed always to happen about a day or two before my period. My brain fog must be clearing:) can't believe I didn't notice that before. Also, I developed a slight sore throat yesterday (still have it this am) and my gut tells me that it is related to the yeast infection. But I don't really know what to make of it. I really do feel tons better overall and I'm surprised that I got another yeast infection where I feel I'm starting to heal now and haven't taken the minocin for about 1 1/2 months now. What do you think?

Thanks seems so small compared to how grateful I feel for all your help....

Lori



Re: Beyond the Elimination Diet

Posted by Robert McFerran on August 19, 1998 at 12:41:59:

In Reply to: Beyond the Elimination Diet posted by Lori Reid on August 19, 1998 at 11:15:54:

Lori,

I'm glad that you are seeing the improvement but at the same time I'm about 95% sure that you have candida adding to your symptoms. The frequent yeast infections don't surprise me a bit.

In order to get the antifungals you need to deal with the yeast you'll need to get a candida antibody test done. It will confirm that you have unusually high levels of antibody to candida albicans. Your physician will need to prescribe a six month course of a powerful anti-fungal (lamisil or sporanox). I hope that you have drug coverage on your insurance because these drugs aren't cheap. You will hear about nystatin powder as an alternative due to it's safety but I've found that in some cases it doesn't work as well as those that are absorbed into the bloodstream (lamisil and sporanox).

My experience with minocin and other antibiotic therapies is that they DO work -- on two levels. First, they sterilize the gut of many bacteria that might be coming in contact with the immune system. Second, in the case of tetracyclines (including minocycline) there is a direct effect on the synovium. Unfortunately neither of these reasons have an impact on leaky gut syndrome -- and you WILL ALWAYS have arthritis until you lessen leaky gut syndrome. Even more unfortunate is the fact that the persistent use of antibiotics almost guarantee yeast overgrowth and in turn A LEAKIER GUT - just the thing we are trying to avoid.

Bob


Re: Beyond the Elimination Diet

Posted by Gerry on August 19, 1998 at 15:33:44:

In Reply to: Re: Beyond the Elimination Diet posted by Robert McFerran on August 19, 1998 at 12:41:59:

Robert, if you have a spare moment...

I understand the connection between stress and LGS, but how does LGS cause arthritis? I have lower back DDD, which I believe originated with construction work (lifting) as a teenager. What's the mechanism for LGS causing cartilege breakdown.

Thanks,
Gerry


Re: Beyond the Elimination Diet

Posted by Lori Reid on August 19, 1998 at 18:02:26:

In Reply to: Re: Beyond the Elimination Diet posted by Robert McFerran on August 19, 1998 at 12:41:59:

I have an appointment with my GP for the 26th. She usually will do what I ask even though her receptionist said "she may not want to have your blood drawn", I'm sure she will when I explain the whole picture to her. I looked at the page on the candida antibody test and it looks like I should ask them to do the antibody test with the candida immune complexes because it says (paraphrasing) "the IgM (shows active infection) antibodies are only present for a short time, The IgG (shows past inf.) are present for years after a cure, and antibody tests lack the specificity for a conclusive diagnosis of clinical candidiasis. The only lab test proven to provide this detection is the candida immune complex assay". Is that what I want?

My insurance covers drugs but I'm not sure if I have to meet my $750 deductible first.

I'll take all my information along to the appointment to make sure we get the right things done.

Thanks Again,

Lori


Re: Beyond the Elimination Diet

Posted by Robert McFerran on August 19, 1998 at 20:05:50:

In Reply to: Re: Beyond the Elimination Diet posted by Lori Reid on August 19, 1998 at 18:02:26:

Lori,

The only lab test proven to provide this detection is the candida immune complex assay.

That is the one you want. You should print off this page for your doc.

Bob


Re: Beyond the Elimination Diet

Posted by Robert McFerran on August 19, 1998 at 20:21:00:

In Reply to: Re: Beyond the Elimination Diet posted by Gerry on August 19, 1998 at 15:33:44:

Gerry,

Of course arthritis can be caused by physical trauma but the main cause of arthritis is leaky gut syndrome. Here is a segment from my book describing the process.

Our immune system creates antibodies whenever something foreign to it penetrates our protective shell. I use the term ‘shell’ here in a figurative sense to include both the structures that are inside our body (including our mouth, esophagus, stomach, intestines, colon, etc.) as well as the skin covering the periphery of the body. Our body also uses a variety of non-structural secretory systems to limit alien substances from entering the bloodstream. Examples of this type would include excess tearing of the eyes and greater production of mucous to cover the nasal tissues when exposed to a dusty environment.

Once a foreign substance penetrates these structural and secretory barriers for the first time an immune response is launched. Initially it involves fluids that clump the foreign substance together so that they can be more easily recognized and carried out of the body. A subsequent and more sophisticated immune response then takes place involving a certain type of cell (called a lymphocyte) that singles out the foreign substance. These lymphocytes are antibodies that are able to chemically adapt to fit and lock onto the structure of the invader. Once this happens a cascade of events take place. Other lymphocytes rush to attack, enzymes are released and hoards of new lymphocytes are bred (or cloned) to ‘search out and destroy’ that particular invader.

This cloning is the way our immune system develops a ‘memory’. This memory is important since the next time this particular invader breeches our protective barriers our immune system will be prepared to launch an immediate and much more powerful response.

Immunological memory works on our side when we receive vaccinations. A good example is the flu shot. Fragments of a dead virus are injected and the body responds to this foreign antigenic material by creating specific antibodies. It’s important to note that it’s not necessary to inject the real virus, just some of the pieces, since they contain the protein chains that our antibodies use to identify the virus as an invader.

Our body responds with a mild immune response. The intruder is recognized but there are few antigens that have been created to attack it. We might experience weak symptoms of headache and slight fever as more antibody cells form and attack the virus fragments (which remember are dead). They proceed to clone themselves and multiply to prepare for a prolonged battle or a new infection.

Later when we are exposed to the real virus, we have a massive army of antibodies that are ready and waiting to stop the intruder in it’s tracks. In essence we have ‘tricked’ our immune system into launching a more massive attack on the living virus, by introducing something prior (in this case dead protein chains) that only somewhat resembled the real thing.

This memory can also work against us. When someone is exposed to poison ivy for the first time there will be little if any consequence. However the second contact is a different story. The immune system has had the opportunity to employ it’s ‘memory’ to manufacture specific antibodies to the poison ivy antigen which consequently results in a much stronger response.

The immune response starts a complex avalanche of biochemical reactions which, when given the right situation, can be much more toxic to the body than the poison ivy antigen would have ever been by itself. This example illustrates how the downstream cascade of biochemical reactions can almost be completely responsible for the severity of our symptoms. Remember, everything is initiated by the antigen/antibody reaction alone. If you don’t come in contact with the poison ivy you won’t have any symptoms.

The majority of rheumatologists perceive (and tell their patients) that rheumatoid disease is ‘auto-immune’ in nature. In ot


Got It! Thanks! (NMI)

Posted by Lori Reid on August 19, 1998 at 21:14:48:

In Reply to: Re: Beyond the Elimination Diet posted by Robert McFerran on August 19, 1998 at 20:05:50:





diet reaction

Posted by Linda Hynds on August 19, 1998 at 13:01:24:

Hi everyone,
I just wanted to share this in the hopes it might help some others know what to expect. I tried adding a banana to my diet last evening. I woke later than usual this AM with a headache around eyes and sinuses, just not feeling well and stiffness in both hands. Bob tells me this was a REACTION to the banana. After coffee and "safe" foods, I am feeling great again. For those of you you are thinking about this diet or are already on it, GET the alkaseltzer gold. I had it, but in my brain fog did not use it. However, I apparently did the right thing to get myself out of the reaction. And, GUESS WHAT? I have eaten bananas all my life! Go figure.

Namaste` Linda


Robert: Reaction already?!

Posted by Pam on August 20, 1998 at 02:50:47:

Hi Bob,

I started the agriculturist diet. Introduced oranges with my coffee at breakfast. Had a baked potato at lunch. So far, so good. My energy is high, no discomfort. Since I had already bought more trout, I decided to have it for dinner along with mashed potato. I thought, now that I can't have salt, a little fresh lemon would go nice with the fish, so that was my 3rd food for today. I also had another orange and drank some orange juice this afternoon and had 2 more cups of coffee. So now it's almost midnight. It's been about 4.5 hours since I ate and my nose is running and itchy. This definitely feels like a reaction. Should I assume it's the lemon? What do I do next?

Thanks for your help.
Pam


Re: Robert: Reaction already?!

Posted by Robert McFerran on August 20, 1998 at 12:18:35:

In Reply to: Robert: Reaction already?! posted by Pam on August 20, 1998 at 02:50:47:

Pam,

Pull the lemon out of your diet and put a '?' next to it in your diary. It doesn't sound like a severe reaction but it may still be troublesome. You can test it again after abstaining from it again for 5 days.

Always read the label carefully when drinking something like orange juice. Often there is a lot more in there (in the way of preservatives) than you think!

Bob


Bob, a few more questions.

Posted by Lori Reid on August 20, 1998 at 13:22:33:

Hi Bob,

Can I take a diflucan 150 mg tab for that yeast infection or will it mess with the blood test next week?

You mentioned that nuts portion is only a handful, I don't see that portion info in the hg diet you posted or the Biobalance book. Is there something else I need to be watching?

What the heck is the difference between fertilized & unfert. eggs? I'm not supposed to have unfert eggs right?

Thanks Again,

Lori


Re: Bob, a few more questions.

Posted by Robert McFerran on August 20, 1998 at 13:41:11:

In Reply to: Bob, a few more questions. posted by Lori Reid on August 20, 1998 at 13:22:33:

Lori,

The diflucan will not effect the test. Antibodies (as you will learn) can hang around in your system in the form of immune complexes for several months.

Our ancesters didn't gorge themselves on nuts. They didn't cultivate them either. They would steal the caches hidden by squirrels and other animals. More than one handful is too much.

Fertilized or organic eggs have proven that they are 'alive' enough to be able to be fertilized. Most store eggs are so 'dead' that they could not be fertilized if they wanted to.

Basically fertilized/free range/organic are all names for REAL eggs. I don't want to even try to explain what those other eggs REALLY are!

Bob


Robert (and all others interested) : unbelievable reaction

Posted by Linda Hynds on August 20, 1998 at 19:08:40:

Hi Bob,

Well, I did well with the chicken last night. Tonight, however, I added eggs. In half an hour, my hands were tingling and my thumbs started hurting and minutes after that, my throat started feeling strange and I coughed up phlegm. I took alka seltzer gold and am drinking coffee. I am starting to feel better (after about 25 minutes). I am asuming this was a major reaction to eggs (which I've also eaten all my life). But, I read your post about eggs and now I wonder if it truly is eggs or the shells full of chemicals! If I stay away from eggs for say two weeks and then tried organic eggs from the health food store, might I be ok with them? I hope I'm not boring all the rest of you with these questions. I'm going to do some extra skilled relaxation now Thanks for your patience.

Namaste` Linda (Hynds)


Re: Robert (and all others interested) : unbelievable reaction

Posted by Robert McFerran on August 20, 1998 at 22:19:23:

In Reply to: Robert (and all others interested) : unbelievable reaction posted by Linda Hynds on August 20, 1998 at 19:08:40:

Linda,

Unfortunately reactions to eggs are quite common. Once again any food that has been repetitively eaten in the past (past meaning even at childhood) have a pretty good probability of causing problems. That's why it's always a good idea to expand your diet as much as possible (while avoiding known food allergens and eating within your metabolic type).

You can test free range eggs in as little as five days. They may not have the same effect.

Bob


Re: Robert (and all others interested) : unbelievable reaction

Posted by Phyllis A. on August 21, 1998 at 08:22:24:

In Reply to: Robert (and all others interested) : unbelievable reaction posted by Linda Hynds on August 20, 1998 at 19:08:40:

Hi Linda!

Please don't think the questions are boring to the rest of us. I have been reading with great interest the comments that you, Pam, Lori and the others have been asking/sharing. I'm soaking up the "education" before I take the leap. No matter how minute you think it is, please share it. I await daily for each of you to append your "results of the day," etc.



Re: Robert (and all others interested) : unbelievable reaction

Posted by Susan on August 21, 1998 at 08:56:47:

In Reply to: Robert (and all others interested) : unbelievable reaction posted by Linda Hynds on August 20, 1998 at 19:08:40:

Linda,
I have been reading your posts and the others doing this elimaination process with great interest, so all of your questions are perfect. Walt said that there are no dumb questions and all of this is so new that there would be alot of unknowns. I am preparing myself mentally for this process and it helps learning the lessons of those who have gone before me! Thank you !
Susan



Keep on posting! We love watching this unfold, and it'll help when it's my turn! Thanks!!! NMI

Posted by trish on August 21, 1998 at 11:35:18:

In Reply to: Robert (and all others interested) : unbelievable reaction posted by Linda Hynds on August 20, 1998 at 19:08:40:

No Message Inside


Re: Robert (and all others interested) : unbelievable reaction

Posted by Linda hynds on August 21, 1998 at 14:10:28:

In Reply to: Re: Robert (and all others interested) : unbelievable reaction posted by Phyllis A. on August 21, 1998 at 08:22:24:

Hi Phyllis,

Thank you. I am glad to share if it helps others. Good luck when you take the plunge. Robert is very helpful and supportive. Hopefully Walt's computer will be fixed and he will be caught up by then.

Namaste` Linda



Re: Robert (and all others interested) : unbelievable reaction

Posted by Linda Hynds on August 21, 1998 at 14:12:18:

In Reply to: Re: Robert (and all others interested) : unbelievable reaction posted by Susan on August 21, 1998 at 08:56:47:

Hi Susan,

Please me my response to Phyllis. It goes for you too.

Namaste` Linda



Robert: Abundance

Posted by Pam on August 21, 1998 at 11:21:01:

Hello Bob,

Just checking in to let you know that all is well and I feel great. Yesterday I added canteloupe, cucumbers and turkey and did fine with all of them. So far, so good. By the end of today, I hope to have enough "safe" foods for a big salad.

I wanted to post a side benefit that I shared with Linda yesterday. I thought some of the BB users might find it interesting. Of course you have to keep in mind that I live in Northern California and have access to beautiful organic produce on a regular basis. Here's my little story..

"I do notice a little irritation, scratchiness in my throat. Nothing severe. It's almost like I lost my immunity to all the toxins with the elimination diet and now I'm adjusting a little with each new food I introduce. I suspect it has to do with environmental toxins. This process certainly has been enlightening. On the other hand, my trips to the market have become an almost sacred experience. I'm sure that sounds silly, but I wonder if you've experienced some of this as well. Introducing one food at a time has caused me to savor each of the foods I eat more. Today at lunch I had a plate of cold food...orange wedges, cucumber sticks, steamed cubed potatoes, and a small piece of poached
trout. It felt so abundant! and it was beautiful! I kept thinking that the orange is symbolic of abundance...juicy, sweet, nutritious, whole, simple. It's even a microcosm of the whole cycle of life...planting, growing, harvesting, nourishing. OK. I now I'm getting carried away here. It's just that the diet (and probably the BrainSync CD) has helped me in some way to look at things differently and to feel a lot of gratitude."

Namaste,
Pam


Re: Robert: Abundance

Posted by Robert McFerran on August 21, 1998 at 13:21:37:

In Reply to: Robert: Abundance posted by Pam on August 21, 1998 at 11:21:01:

Pam,

I can say that I do feel the same way when I shop for food and then when I eat. You have explained it better than I could.

I think that when you get on the 'right path' with the right foods and get the results of feeling better and better after every meal (rather craving and feeling BLAH after every meal) that your physiology and psyche actually develop a new found reverance for what you are eating.

When you get a really good piece of meat or fruit or vegetable you'll be able to tell it. You are quite right about the organic foods. It's obvious when you eat them that they are superior. Unfortunately I only have access to a couple of organic fruits right now -- but I do see things changing at the market....

Bob


Re: Robert: Abundance

Posted by Linda Hynds on August 21, 1998 at 14:28:25:

In Reply to: Robert: Abundance posted by Pam on August 21, 1998 at 11:21:01:

Hi Pam,

Yes, you did share that with me and it is a beautiful feeling. I wish I had more access to the fresh produce. What I wanted to add is about the toxins. After my episodes with reactions, I notice some symptoms of my body detoxifying - alittle more fluid retention and some skin lesions. I've had this in the past and I know what it is. If I increase my water and take the hot salt bath, it will clear more quickly. I felt that probably al lot my life I've been putting these food sensitivities into my body. It's no wonder I retain fluid!

I saw my acupressurist today. She is amazed at my response to this diet. She also said I still have alot of fluid.
I fgure I was on the high end of the bell curve of immunity to begin with (those of you who don't have a clue as to what this means, read Walt's book) If I hadn'tt been doing skilled relaxation all these years, I hate to think of where I might be.

You truly are acquiring a beautiful view of life. Pam. Thanks for sharing it with all of us.

Namaste` Linda



Hunter Gatherer Diet Checking In & Eating Less!!

Posted by Lori Reid on August 21, 1998 at 16:54:04:

In Reply to: Robert: Abundance posted by Pam on August 21, 1998 at 11:21:01:

Hi all!

I thought I'd add my recent experiences here too. I have noticed how great each individual food tastes also. I've had good ribeyes before but that one I had the other night was AWESOME! I also noticed that it is taking a lot less food to keep me satisfied than before.

Bob, I was wondering, if Pam turns out to be a "metabolic cycler" then will she have to eat the HG diet for a few days per month? That would almost be the ideal position to find yourself in, that way you could eat some of those things you were missing out on most of the time.

Best of Health to All!!!
Lori


Re: Hunter Gatherer Diet Checking In & Eating Less!!

Posted by Robert McFerran on August 21, 1998 at 18:37:50:

In Reply to: Hunter Gatherer Diet Checking In & Eating Less!! posted by Lori Reid on August 21, 1998 at 16:54:04:

Lori,

She could 'cycle' from an Agriculturist to either a Hunter-Gatherer or Mixed metabolism.

As I have mentioned before when I first heard about the concept of 'cycling' I was VERY suspicious. Of course I was familiar with the phenomenon of PMS (pre-menstrual syndrome) which seemed to emerge as a separate medical problem during the 70's. The problem is that not all women were experiencing an exacerbation of symptoms at the same part of their menstrual cycle.

The concept of metabolic cycling gives a pretty good explaination for the above phenomenon. I'm afraid if you really want to understand how and why this is happening you will have to read a book on Chaos Theory.

I have never seen ANY diet that can meet the specific needs of a metabolic cycler except for those proposed by Dr. Wiley.

Lori, you will find that your food will satisfy your hunger SO WELL that you will get to the point where you will have to remind yourself to eat. Going too far between meals (especially breakfast and lunch) will always create a hypoglycemic 'bonk' for Hunter-Gatherers. Their Agriculturist counterparts have just the opposite experience -- too much food or too soon will interfere with their optimal metabolism.

Bob


I need to gain weight & get some fat pads.

Posted by Steve Shapiro on August 21, 1998 at 15:48:51:

I need to gain some weight & get some fat pads.

The situation is getting worse, I've lost 7 pounds over the last two months (down from 120 to 113 - I'm a 5'7" male), and I bruised my ribs by pressing down too hard on them lifting something. It is uncomfortable to sit and/or lay my elbows on a flat surface for an extended period. Fat pads are small areas of fat that pad the bones.

I can feel that most of the weight was lost in muscle issue.

By way of background, I have an 'incurable' autoimmune disease (Pemphigus) that is responding remarkably well to ER4YT. Prior to starting ER4YT (January - April, 1997), I tried an allergy elimination diet during which my weight went from 155 to 110 Plus/Minus. After starting ER4YT, my weight pretty much stabalized at 120, I gained muscle tissue, but never grew any fat pads.

Also during this time, I took DHEA. I believe the DHEA caused a condition known as hypothyroid on estrogen, as my thyroid almost shut down and my estrogren levels were elevated. Although my blood test show my thyroid to now be normal, it is still slightly enlarged.

When I started ER4YT (July, 1997), I was taking Prednisone,
40mg per day. I now take 1mg per day, and expect to be off of it completely by Oct 1, 1998. I've been on Prednisone, pretty much full time, since December, 1995, on dosages ranging from 180mg/day to 10mg every other day, the mean being around 30mg every other day.

My diet consists of ER4YT beneficials & neutrals, with the following customization:

I do not eat any bean or grain (or products made from them) unless it has been sprouted first (I hand sprout everything)

I plan on doing the "Bob Mc." allergy elimination protocol in September, and have been experimenting by eating 'slow-oxidizer' Type O complient foods for the last month.

I eat 4-5 full meals per day if I am sedintary, 3-4 meals per day if I'm active.

I take the following supplements on a regular basis:

B-5

I take the following supplements on an irregular basis:

Minerals (mixed, calcium, magnesium, potassium, boron, selenium)

I used to take DGL on a regular basis.

Concurrent with the weight loss, I noticed the following symptoms:

Return of chronic fatigue
diameter of stools became narrower (thinner & longer)
Return of urinary urgency, including at least one night-time urination

thanx,

steve shapiro


Re: I need to gain weight & get some fat pads.

Posted by Robert McFerran on August 21, 1998 at 16:13:34:

In Reply to: I need to gain weight & get some fat pads. posted by Steve Shapiro on August 21, 1998 at 15:48:51:

Steve,

I congratulate you on all your hard work AND your results!

I would urge you to see if candida albicans is complicating your picture by getting a candida albicans antibody titer done.

I can tell you from personal experience that if you have a significant intestinal yeast problem (what Walt refers to as C-RS or candida related syndrome) that your gut will not only leak more but it will lose it's absorbing capabilities.

This is one reason why folks with VERY bad leaky gut and very bad candidiasis always show rampant amino acid deficiencies as well as multiple vitamin and mineral deficiencies. Supplementing and eating the diet appropriate to your metabolic type will help -- but as you have found, you cannot eat enough to offset the loss of nutrient absorbtion when you have a poorly functioning intestinal tract.

Bob

p.s. -- I know that you know the difference between type O and Hunter-gatherer foods -- unfortunately others do not. I wanted to point out that there are HUGE differences.


Pemphigus??

Posted by Peggy on August 22, 1998 at 00:02:07:

In Reply to: I need to gain weight & get some fat pads. posted by Steve Shapiro on August 21, 1998 at 15:48:51:


Steve,

I hope you don't mind my asking, but, what is Pemphigus?

Peggy




Re: I need to gain weight & get some fat pads.

Posted by Walt Stoll on August 22, 1998 at 12:51:20:

In Reply to: I need to gain weight & get some fat pads. posted by Steve Shapiro on August 21, 1998 at 15:48:51:

Peggy, Pemphigus is a TERRIBLE auto immune condition that is TOTALLY incurable by the conventional medical paradigm and eminently curable via a holistic paradigm. Steve has already started learning THAT fact. It creates a total body deep scabby, ulcerated & blistering rash. What is not conventionally appreciated is that similar lesions abound in many parts of the body not seen so easily as the surface of the skin. Steve can surely tell you more!

Steve,

You are well on the path to resolving this condition. By the way I have yet to see anyone with pemphigus who did not also have C-RS. The LGS seems to be the major factor and the C-RS just makes it worse. Once you are clear for a few months, it would be nice if you had even one open minded physician who would listen to what you did to resolve it. Just think how many other patient they have that still listen to their docs when they say it is "incurable". Be sure to share your experiences with the BB participants as you get well.

Healthy people are neither skinny or fat. As you regain your health, you will see this concern evening out. In the meantime, I would consider taking a good complex of digestive enzymes, along with trace minerals (crystalline or ionic) and predigested essential amino acids. This will stop your muscle wasting while you are healing your LGS. FAT can always be regained. For now it is important that you avoid muscle loss since that is NOT so easy to get back.

You might consider adding some glutamate to your B5.

Keep up the good work. Be sure your skilled relaxation is working right.

Walt





Re: I need to gain weight & get some fat pads.

Posted by Peggy on August 22, 1998 at 13:18:19:

In Reply to: Re: I need to gain weight & get some fat pads. posted by Walt Stoll on August 22, 1998 at 12:51:20:


Steve already let me know what it was and I "searched" for it and found out more. Never heard of it before. Sounds similar to my condition, only, like you said, my scabby ulcerations can't be seen.

Wishing health for all of us,

Peggy




Robert: Reaction?

Posted by Pam on August 22, 1998 at 14:06:20:

Hi Bob,

A rather unpleasant topic, but...I've had several bouts of diarrhea since yesterday. No other symptoms. Actually I'm feeling great. Should I assume this is a food allergy? If so, my guess is that it's related to the introduction of turkey but I don't know. I look forward to your opinion.

Thanks,
Pam


Re: Robert: Reaction?

Posted by Robert McFerran on August 22, 1998 at 21:59:30:

In Reply to: Robert: Reaction? posted by Pam on August 22, 1998 at 14:06:20:

Pam,

What form of turkey did you eat? I would have to say if you feel good that you didn't have a reaction BUT go ahead and put a question mark next to turkey in your diary and re-test it in about 6 days.

Sometimes folks will have loose bowels for a week or so following that initial dose of magnesium citrate plus the fact that since you aren't eating any more inflammation creating food allergens that you are literally releasing stool from the large intestines.

A series of three colonics done by a professional hydrotherapist within a 10 day period might be very worthwhile to mechanically break up colonic debris. You would be AMAZED at what comes out. And you thought that you had to bring up an unpleasant topic!

Bob


Thanks...I think ; )

Posted by Pam on August 22, 1998 at 23:12:32:

In Reply to: Re: Robert: Reaction? posted by Robert McFerran on August 22, 1998 at 21:59:30:

Hi Bob,

It was a fresh turkey breast which I sealed in foil and roasted in it's own juices. It was so yummy that I already bought another one, but with a difference. This time I bought a free range turkey so I won't be dealing with the pesticides. I'm gonna go ahead and give it a try.

And gee...I just can't wait to explore the colonics. Thanks for the sage advice.

warm regards,
Pam


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