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With SR done properly, will that stop us from bracing at all, eventually? Or is bracing just part of the human experience, and SR helps reduce it's accumulatory effects on the body?
In Reply to: Dr. Stoll or Jan: Do some people never brace? posted by Sapphire [735.3277] on April 17, 2007 at 17:35:30:
Good question.
I wake in the mornings and can feel my jaw tight and clenched. Is that normal?
In Reply to: Dr. Stoll or Jan: Do some people never brace? posted by Sapphire [735.3277] on April 17, 2007 at 17:35:30:
Hi Sapphire,
Nice question, I'll be interested in knowing what Walt says.
My experience as a massage therapist is that some people brace more and others brace less. I have only had one client who I thought might not be bracing.
My guess (what fun) is that if someone started doing SR at a young age, and always did it everyday, they wouldn't ever brace. Unless there was some huge stressor -- like multiple car accidents or something -- that tweaked the nervous system, and then they would need massage, etc. to get back on track.
Best wishes,
Jan
In Reply to: Re: Dr. Stoll or Jan: Do some people never brace? posted by ukchris [1400.3374] on April 17, 2007 at 17:56:29:
Hi Uk,
Not normal. Keep working on reducing your stress levels through SR and other things.
Best wishes,
Jan
In Reply to: Re: Dr. Stoll or Jan: Do some people never brace? posted by Jan DeCourtney, CMT (Happygal) [1307.2761] on April 17, 2007 at 19:51:56:
Like Jan, I have been a massage therapist during 18 years. I have
worked with more than 10,000 people and I have met only one person
who had no trace of bracing. (I did not call it Bracing back then of
course). This amazing person was an aerobic athlete, a self-help
teacher, and an amateur jazz musician. His muscles were strong but
without any tension. His whole body was alive and vibrant. I
remember he said he needed very little sleep. I saw him only once
because he was just visiting in my area but he shared that he had
been rolfed twice and that he received massages regularly. That was
quite an experience and it made a lasting impression on me.
In Reply to: Re: Dr. Stoll or Jan: Do some people never brace? posted by Jan DeCourtney, CMT (Happygal) [1307.2761] on April 17, 2007 at 19:51:56:
Hi Jan,
In one of your posts not too long ago, you said something like "back when I used to brace", so that made me think that maybe you don't brace at all anymore. I probably misunderstood that post. I take it that you brace less than you used to, but that you still notice that you still are bracing at times, right?
Sapphire
In Reply to: Dr. Stoll or Jan: Do some people never brace? posted by Sapphire [735.3277] on April 17, 2007 at 17:35:30:
I'm also wondering, if we frequently notice ourselves bracing during the day, is that a sign that we are not doing SR properly?
In Reply to: Re: Dr. Stoll or Jan: Do some people never brace? posted by Sapphire [735.3277] on April 17, 2007 at 20:06:06:
Hi Sapphire,
Okay, let me think about this overnight and I'll answer you in the morning.
Best wishes,
Jan
In Reply to: Re: Dr. Stoll or Jan: Do some people never brace? posted by Jan DeCourtney, CMT (Happygal) [1307.2761] on April 17, 2007 at 19:51:56:
Hi, Jan (& Sapphire).
Remember that bracing is just a symptom of what is going on in the hypothalamus. The end result of stored stress-effect is mainly dependent upon the genetic susceptibility of the individual. It is just that muscular tension (bracing) is probably the most common genetic susceptibility. Others are dysautonomia, primary gut problems, vascular (hypertensive or arterial spasm) problems, etc.
Likely, none of these things would ever show up--or at least be delayed till very late in life--IF the individual was taught SR in kindergarten and society accepted it as part of life just like brushing your teeth, etc.
I think we are a long way from that day, however.
Hope this helps.
Walt
In Reply to: Re: Dr. Stoll or Jan: Do some people never brace? posted by Sapphire [735.3277] on April 17, 2007 at 20:07:35:
Hi Sapphire,
I'd say just the opposite - when we are successfully doing our SR is when we DO begin to notice our bracing.
Before I did any SR, I never noticed my habits of clenching my jaw and holding my shoulders up. Now that I practice regularly, I am able to catch myself during the day and stop it.
hope that makes sense...
~~~8>
In Reply to: Re: Dr. Stoll or Jan: Do some people never brace? ARCHIVE. posted by Walt Stoll [1915.1889] on April 18, 2007 at 08:26:52:
Because you can't compare SR to brushing your teeth. Brushing your teeth can be done any time and only takes a couple of minutes. There is no rule about sleeping 2 hours after or exercising 2 hours after.
In Reply to: Re: Dr. Stoll or Jan: Do some people never brace? ARCHIVE. posted by Steven [280.3362] on April 18, 2007 at 11:21:22:
I think he was comparing the social acceptance of brushing your teeth with practicing SR, not the logistics.
~~~~8>
In Reply to: Re: Dr. Stoll or Jan: Do some people never brace? posted by labrat [1119.3360] on April 18, 2007 at 08:39:20:
That makes sense, thanks, Labrat. I've been noticing the same, catching myself bracing and stopping... guess I'm doing things right then.
Sappahire
In Reply to: Re: Dr. Stoll or Jan: Do some people never brace? ARCHIVE. posted by Walt Stoll [1915.1889] on April 18, 2007 at 08:26:52:
Thanks, Dr. Stoll, that helps a lot.
Sapphire
In Reply to: Re: Dr. Stoll or Jan: Do some people never brace? posted by Sapphire [735.3277] on April 17, 2007 at 20:06:06:
Hi Sapphire,
"In one of your posts not too long ago, you said something like "back when I used to brace", so that made me think that maybe you don't brace at all anymore. I probably misunderstood that post. I take it that you brace less than you used to, but that you still notice that you still are bracing at times, right?"
That is not easy for me to answer! Maybe Walt can shed some insight into my experience, too.
After doing SR 3 times a day for a couple of years, I had dramatic improvements in my overall muscle tension. I was SO MUCh better, but yet there was obviously still some bracing.
Walt has said that SR may not work if there is some huge stressor that is causing more stress than can be discharged through SR. So I knew that something else was going on that kept me still partially bracing. Fortunately, I found out what it was: nutritional stress. It seems that my particular chemistry type (1% of the population) has a great need for large amounts of certain vitamins and minerals in a combination specific to each individual. In my case, it is mostly B vitamins, Vit C, Iron, lithium orotate, magnesium, calcium, krebs cycle chelates, zinc, and a few others that are really essential.
I got immediate and further relief from bracing by taking B3, but it has taken me several years to really fine tune the supplement program. Most of the time, I do really well.
If I am very active, and don't take enough supplements, my muscles tighten up a bit in certain places. It's really odd. If my thigh muscles are tight, I know I need Krebs cycle chelates. If my neck muscles are tight, I know I need B3. If I just feel a bit tired, I know I need all of them.
So to answer your question: most of the time I do not feel I am bracing. There may be some low level bracing that I don't feel (remember that bracing is usually not felt). And at times if my vitamins/minerals are too low, I feel my muscles tighten up. HOWEVER, the improvement in my health and in my bracing has improved so much since I started doing SR, that to me, it doesn't feel like I am bracing. There is a world of difference between my dismal life before SR and my wonderful life now!
Hope you're not sorry you asked! That was a long answer and my experience may be radically different from the experience of other people. After all, I'm only like 1% of the population.
Best wishes,
Jan
In Reply to: Re: Dr. Stoll or Jan: Do some people never brace? ARCHIVE. posted by labrat [1119.3360] on April 18, 2007 at 11:28:26:
Thanks, Labrat.
Walt
In Reply to: Re: Dr. Stoll or Jan: Do some people never brace? ARCHIVE. posted by labrat [1119.3360] on April 18, 2007 at 11:28:26:
So was I. Asking a child in kindergarten to follow all that is the same as asking them to never watch tv, play and just read all the time. It will never be "socially accepted".
In Reply to: Re: Dr. Stoll or Jan: Do some people never brace? ARCHIVE. posted by Steven [280.3362] on April 19, 2007 at 11:44:46:
What do you mean, "all that"? What is so hard about it? I don't understand why you'd think that SR is not fun... I look forward to it every day and really enjoy it. I wish I HAD been taught in kindergarten!
A child raised with certain habits will come to them naturally. I mean if you don't bother teaching them how to behave, to eat with a fork and knife, they'll eat like animals. If you dont' teach them that taking care of themselves is worth some time each day, they won't know how to do that either.
Not watching tv all the time is a good thing in my book...and reading was one of my favorite things as a kid. I played plenty, but loved coming home to a good book or reading when it was raining and we couldn't go outside.
I had no idea reading was such a punishment!!
SR is a total of 40 minutes out of your whole day! It is invaluable for that tiny investment of time! I will only dream that it will someday be incorporated into folks' psyches enough to be socially acceptable.
~~~8>
In Reply to: Re: Dr. Stoll or Jan: Do some people never brace? ARCHIVE. posted by labrat [7343.2765] on April 19, 2007 at 18:52:49:
Hi Labrat,
SR is socially acceptable! It just depends upon who you hang around with. In my crowd of people, it's just fine. They like meditation, yoga, relaxation, healthy food, regular exercise, etc.
Best wishes,
Jan
In Reply to: Re: Dr. Stoll or Jan: Do some people never brace? ARCHIVE. posted by labrat [7343.2765] on April 19, 2007 at 18:52:49:
Thanks, Labrat (& Jan).
I am encouraged. Things really are changing. I can see some of the changes even over my lifetime (at least since I became holistically conscious).
Walt
In Reply to: Re: Dr. Stoll or Jan: Do some people never brace? ARCHIVE. posted by labrat [7343.2765] on April 19, 2007 at 18:52:49:
Yes but it is 40 minutes (I would say more like 45-50 if you include setting up and finishing like turning out lights, getting set, couple of minutes after to clear your head before standing etc) every single day without fail. And there are rules to follow. You can't just do it before bed, before exercise or in the presence of others. That is a big key factor to me.
Expecting a child to do things completely unlike his peers to me is not right. It's like forcing your kid to go to a snobby private school or even home schooling him. He never gets to learn social skills which he WILL need. There is this teenager prodigy who is a bodybuilder. I forget his name. He eats like a bodybuilder, is muscular, works out like a madman but when he is interviewed, he does not have what anyone would call a childhood. His parents put this on him. I think that is completely ridiculous.
In Reply to: Re: Dr. Stoll or Jan: Do some people never brace? ARCHIVE. posted by Jan DeCourtney, CMT (Happygal) [1307.3210] on April 19, 2007 at 19:22:13:
You said it. In "your crowd of people". Are people expected to become hermits or completely find new friends? In theory, it's easier said than done.
If your friends are into it, that's cool but I have never in my lifetime met someone who practices wellness. I know people who eat healthy but someone who basically can't eat out because of a "whole foods exclusive" diet? Never met or heard of one.
In Reply to: Re: Dr. Stoll or Jan: Do some people never brace? ARCHIVE. posted by Steven [280.3362] on April 20, 2007 at 11:31:20:
Hi Steven,
Each person needs to make their own choice whether they like being ill, or if they are willing to do what it takes to get healthy.
Me, I like healthy.
Best wishes,
Jan
In Reply to: Re: Dr. Stoll or Jan: Do some people never brace? ARCHIVE. posted by Jan DeCourtney, CMT (Happygal) [2062.3360] on April 20, 2007 at 18:56:03:
Healthy and hermit versus somewhat healthy and having a life? I take the latter there. What's the good of being healthy if you have no one to share it with?
In Reply to: Re: Dr. Stoll or Jan: Do some people never brace? ARCHIVE. posted by Steven [280.3362] on April 20, 2007 at 19:10:45:
Hi Steven,
Hermit for 6 months or a year, or however long it takes you to get better. (In my case, 4 years of being a hermit to get better, but 20 years of being a hermit because I was ill.)
Then... when you are better.... all the friends you want, and more and better friends than the ones from before. AND the health to enjoy them and all kinds of new and wonderful experiences! This is how it has happened for me!
You choose, Steven. If you'd like to stay the same or get worse for the rest of your life, then don't go to all the trouble for that 6 months or 1 year, etc. This path isn't for everyone.
Best wishes,
Jan
In Reply to: Re: Dr. Stoll or Jan: Do some people never brace? posted by Jan DeCourtney, CMT (Happygal) [2062.3360] on April 18, 2007 at 21:52:51:
Jan,
That helps a lot, thanks so much!
Sapphire
In Reply to: Re: Dr. Stoll or Jan: Do some people never brace? ARCHIVE. posted by Steven [280.3362] on April 20, 2007 at 11:27:38:
Steven,
I grew up in a home that was not like the other homes on my white suburban street...my mother was central american and we ate stuff and did stuff that no other families did. I don't have a problem with nonconformity.
Your examples are extreme and I don't believe can be compared to teaching a child to do SR, which will not isolate him from society, or deny him time with peers! It WILL however, teach him an invaluable tool for dealing with stress, negative thoughts, and pain that he would not otherwise have. I don't see a single negative thing about that.
A lot of kids go to private schools and do wonderfully...they are not isolated from society just because they're home schooled or in a 'snobby' school, private or not.
It almost sounds like you feel put upon and angry about the whole concept of SR. Unless you are able and willing to make it an important part of your life, then it won't do you any good to stress yourself out even more tryting to fit it in to some impossible schedule. Just don't do it until you are ready - you can concentrate on other things to improve your situation.
I don't recall why it is you are interested in SR...
~~~8>
In Reply to: Re: Dr. Stoll or Jan: Do some people never brace? ARCHIVE. posted by Steven [280.3362] on April 20, 2007 at 11:31:20:
Hi Steven,
Emotions like resentment, bitterness, anger, feeling deprived, and feeling like a victim are very toxic and can undermine even the strictest plan for healing and wellness. When we focus on those feelings, we create more and more of them. It's like placing an order.
It's hard not to feel discouraged by all we have to do in order to be well, and to be bummed out that others can eat junk or trash their bodies in other ways and seemingly be so happy and healthy, while we have to follow a stricter path and still feel sorta crummy.
Many people (including me) have been able to turn their discouragement and sense of deprivation around just by changing their outlook bit by bit. It's not easy, but it is simple, and it can be done.
Now instead of feeling like it's a waste of time, and like I was just putting in my time doing SR, I look forward to the time, even crave it, and each experience is different and often really interesting for my personal growth. It only took a couple of months before I started to feel that way all the time. Although it is sometimes an effort to make time for SR, I no longer think about what I am giving up or missing by spending time doing SR--I just give in and enjoy the process as something good I do for myself. It's my time alone with myself. A treat. When I'm happier and more relaxed, my relationships are better.
Instead of *having* to walk every day, now I *get* to walk every day, and the same with clean, wholesome food. It's what my body needs, and when I do that, I'm happier because I'm a lot better off. My body really is able to do a lot to heal itself, and I have the power to make that happen by making different choices and choosing to be more positive.
Try not fighting it so much and see what happens. Just say to yourself each time, "I wonder what it would be like if I enjoyed this SR session and believed that it will benefit my health." and see if anything begins to feel different.
I really hope you can find a way to make peace with this.
Wishing you the best,
Nutmeg
In Reply to: Re: Dr. Stoll or Jan: Do some people never brace? ARCHIVE. posted by labrat [7343.2765] on April 21, 2007 at 13:32:40:
I have an open mind when it comes to things. The fact that I have been doing the SR 2 times a day in my 3rd month now (even though I have yet to feel anything from it). But I still continue.
What I'm saying is I"m not a fan of statements made when I can clearly find holes in them. Like things like "if you have to be a hermit for a year...." which is said in the book. As if that is possible for most people.
In Reply to: Re: Dr. Stoll or Jan: Do some people never brace? For Steven... posted by Nutmeg [4785.74] on April 21, 2007 at 23:40:13:
See, some days I am into some days I am not. I'm not into ANYTHING at all if I have to do it every day. I love working out in the gym but if I had to do it 2 times a day 7 days a week without fail, there is no way it's the same.
Some days I enjoy it, some days it really feels like a chore. But regardless, I do it.
In Reply to: Re: Dr. Stoll or Jan: Do some people never brace? ARCHIVE. posted by Jan DeCourtney, CMT (Happygal) [2062.3360] on April 20, 2007 at 19:21:55:
See I think that sort of advice in dangerous. I mean ok, I'm in my 3rd month of 2 times a day. I have skipped the second session a few times during that time which I couldn't get alone (once I was in the ER for someone for example). So no one can say I'm not trying it. I am open minded enough to give things a shot to see if they work.
In my opinion, health should be a PART of life, not taking it over. Like working out. I love it and admire people who do it. It's good for you, IMO. But if someone is so into where they won't do anything but work out, I think it becomes borderline obsessive.
In Reply to: Re: Dr. Stoll or Jan: Do some people never brace? ARCHIVE. posted by Steven [280.3362] on April 22, 2007 at 21:40:59:
Steven,
What did your biofeedback check of your technique show?
Walt
In Reply to: Re: Dr. Stoll or Jan: Do some people never brace? ARCHIVE. posted by Walt Stoll [1915.1889] on April 23, 2007 at 07:24:02:
I posted this to you when I started. I used the EDA bioscan for 2 weeks every single day. Number dropped as low as it can go.
Like I said, in my 3rd month, I feel no change at all. Absolutely nothing.
In Reply to: Re: Dr. Stoll or Jan: Do some people never brace? ARCHIVE. posted by Steven [280.3362] on April 23, 2007 at 11:07:21:
Thanks, Steven.
I still have a hard time keeping everyone's history and progress in order. Since 3 months is the earliest one might see results from SR, I would suggest patience.
If you do not begin to see long term benefits within 6-12 months, I guess you are just a lost cause. Nothing works for everyone. If you ever find anything that helps you I hope you will share it with us.
Walt
In Reply to: Do some people never brace? ARCHIVE. Lost cause? posted by Walt Stoll [93.1889] on April 24, 2007 at 06:55:18:
Hi Steven,
If it doesn't work after 6 months, you also might consider that there is a stressor that is affecting you so strongly that the SR doesn't work.
That was partly my situation. I got to a certain level of health with SR but knew it could be better. I discovered that I had some nutritional stressors and had to take megadoses of supplements.
But, the SR was and still is, a basic foundation in my health program. I agree with Walt about your continuing to do it.
Best wishes,
Jan
In Reply to: Do some people never brace? ARCHIVE. Lost cause? posted by Walt Stoll [93.1889] on April 24, 2007 at 06:55:18:
I wasn't planning on giving up YET but I do find it disconcerting that once again, I might fall into the "other" category even though I follow what was recommended to the tee.
In Reply to: Re: Do some people never brace? ARCHIVE. Lost cause? posted by Jan DeCourtney, CMT (Happygal) [2062.3360] on April 24, 2007 at 09:50:57:
I can't buy that. There are so many stressors out there, there is no way to know which is what. But again, according to the books about SR I have read, this should NOT be a factor. This SHOULD work if I follow the plan, which I have.
In Reply to: Re: Do some people never brace? ARCHIVE. Lost cause? posted by Steven [280.3362] on April 24, 2007 at 11:16:54:
Okay, Steven.
You decide for yourself what you want to do.
Best wishes,
Jan
In Reply to: Re: Do some people never brace? ARCHIVE. Lost cause? posted by Jan DeCourtney, CMT (Happygal) [2062.3360] on April 24, 2007 at 06:02:11:
I have been following the "plan" Doc laid out in his books and on here, as hard as it has been. Shouldn't it work?
In Reply to: Re: Do some people never brace? ARCHIVE. Lost cause? posted by Steven [280.3362] on April 24, 2007 at 08:27:52:
Hi Steven,
Nothing works for 100% of people. Maybe you are the exception.
However, if it isn't working for someone, it is more likely that either something is not being done right, or as I mentioned, some stressor is present that is greater than what the 3LS can fix.
Jan
In Reply to: Re: Do some people never brace? ARCHIVE. Lost cause? posted by Jan DeCourtney, CMT (Happygal) [2062.3360] on April 24, 2007 at 21:50:55:
Nothing like hearing something like that to take the wind out of your sails.
So either way, I'm screwed.
In Reply to: Re: Do some people never brace? ARCHIVE. Lost cause? posted by Steven [280.3362] on April 25, 2007 at 11:09:15:
Hi Steven,
Not at all! It's interesting to me to see, how up to now, you always seem to defeat yourself.
I was just thinking today, how much progress you have made since you've started coming to this bulletin board. You've really made an effort and I think you are well on your way to getting better.... if you keep it up and if you are open to a few new ideas.
One of them, which seems to be the most important one for you to learn right now, is that your health is not like going to a store and buying a model airplane kit where you follow the exact instructions to create a airplane (i.e., get well). Your health is integrally related to YOU and your life, and, you are about to approach the fun part of this where you get to apply what you've learned so far, and do some more experimenting, to figure out the mystery of what's going to get you better. You are at a very exciting crossroads, as I see it.
Totally hopeful. Have you heard the saying, "There are no incurable diseases, only incurable people." Well, Steven, I think you are curable.
Best wishes,
Jan
In Reply to: Re: Dr. Stoll or Jan: Do some people never brace? ARCHIVE. posted by Steven [280.3362] on April 22, 2007 at 21:46:59:
Hi Steven,
Yes, I agree, health should be a part of life, not take it over. However, some people are dealt a bad hand genetically, and they have to work harder at it than others, otherwise they feel lousy. I'm kind of like that. I will always have to be attentive to my health.
However the interesting thing is, the health stuff is so much more fun than the non-health stuff. I would never go back to the awful non-health stuff.
Yes, you have been open minded and are trying things. I think that is really great. I really wish you the best on your healing journey.
Best wishes,
Jan
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