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canker sores-- contagious?

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canker sores-- contagious?

Posted by
Chris on June 01, 1999 at 11:11:47:

Dr. Stoll,

In Prescription for Nutritional Healing (1997), by James F. Balch and Phyllis A. Balch, it is written: "Some experts believe that [canker sores] are contagious, but others disagree."

Why do some experts believe this, and why do you disagree. All of the information i've found on the web has said that they are not, but I'd like to find some more information.

Thankyou,

chris



Re: canker sores-- contagious? (Archive under Philosophy)

Posted by Walt Stoll on June 02, 1999 at 14:14:31:

In Reply to: canker sores-- contagious? posted by Chris on June 01, 1999 at 11:11:47:

Hi, Chris.

There are 2 basic mechanisms that determine whether ANYONE will "catch" ANYTHING from anyone else.

They are:
1. The resistance of the "host" (the person 'catching') and
2. The virulence of the organism (the causative 'infecting' bug).

ANYONE with a healthy immune system CANNOT catch canker sores for anyone else. Those with weak immune systems can easily "catch" canker sores from anyone.

Why do you think that there is disagreement aboiut this? It is because, until now, only the infecting organism was considered (the allopathic paradigm). If no one looks at the other half of the equation, of course they will be confused.

Walt



Re: canker sores-- contagious? (Archive under Philosophy)

Posted by
Chris on June 02, 1999 at 18:57:49:

In Reply to: Re: canker sores-- contagious? (Archive under Philosophy) posted by Walt Stoll on June 02, 1999 at 14:14:31:

I don't get it. So they are contagious? In this "catching" that you're describing, is it an actual migration of a virus from one mouth to another, like with mouth herpes, or like the catching of any other disease?

--chris



Re: canker sores-- contagious? (Archive under Philosophy)

Posted by
trish on June 02, 1999 at 22:35:24:

In Reply to: Re: canker sores-- contagious? (Archive under Philosophy) posted by Chris on June 02, 1999 at 18:57:49:

Chris,

Let's see if I can help...

Picture this: There are germs everywhere, all the time. They are all over us and all around us. Why don't we all have infections all the time? Because our skin (mechanically) protects us from all the nasties out there, right? But, if we fall down and skin our knee, there's an opening in that barrier. This makes it easier for one of the nasty germs to grow there. Sometimes we will get an infection.

With other "infectious" diseases it's our immune system that (chemically/biologically) protects us from all the nasties out there. If we are run down, stressed, unhealthy or somehow immunologically compromised, it's like leaving an opening for germs and diseases to come in.

There's two sides to the story. One is the "bugs" out there (they're everywhere); the other is the "barrier" we have to protect us (our skin and our immune system). IF our barrier is not working right or somehow broken, then the bugs get in. SO...to use your example, the virus WILL migrate from one mouth to another, but the question is, will it get IN???

Now do you get it? I hope this helps. :-)

trish



Re: canker sores-- contagious? (Archive under Philosophy)

Posted by
Chris on June 02, 1999 at 23:43:37:

In Reply to: Re: canker sores-- contagious? (Archive under Philosophy) posted by trish on June 02, 1999 at 22:35:24:

well, it sort of helps, but not really. what i don't get, and what i want to know, is whether there is any difference between canker sores and other contagious infections. let's compare it to mouth herpes. is the difference that herpes is more or less able to migrate, or that people's immune systems are more or less able to fend it off, or is there any real difference? because if one of those two or both of those differences are the only differences, then they are different only in degree of contagiousness, and not in the type of contagion or whether they are contagious.
so, is the answer to the question "are canker sores contagious?" a simple yes?
and to what degree to you have to worry about catching them from someone or giving them to someone, and how would you compare that degree to other infections, like, for example herpes?

thanks,

chris



Re: canker sores-- contagious? (Archive under Philosophy)

Posted by
trish on June 03, 1999 at 00:44:25:

In Reply to: Re: canker sores-- contagious? (Archive under Philosophy) posted by Chris on June 02, 1999 at 23:43:37:

Hi Chris,

You asked, "is the difference that herpes is more or less able to migrate, or that people's immune systems are more
or less able to fend it off, or is there any real difference?"

The difference is THE COMBINATION OF THOSE TWO THINGS. (I'm not yelling, just trying to make a point!) All viruses and germs "migrate" if only by being in our environment.

Then you go on to say, "because if one of those two or both of those differences are the only differences, then they are different only in degree of contagiousness, and not
in the type of contagion or whether they are contagious."

Chris, try to look at it from the OTHER side...the very same virus/germ infects SOME people, but not others.

SO, you can say, "they are different only in degree of our RESISTANCE."

You are asking if the glass is half full or half empty. The answer is a simple (not!) "yes." THAT's why there's disagreement in the medical community.

"to what degree to you have to worry about catching them from someone or giving them to someone, and how would you compare that degree to other infections, like, for example herpes?"

My answer would be: To the degree that you are less healthy than you should be, or THEY are less healthy than they should be.

Herpes and canker sores are the same thing, aren't they? It doesn't matter if they're not; technically, they are both something you'd ONLY get or give if your defenses are down.

Thanks for making me think about all of this!

trish




Re: canker sores-- contagious? (Archive under Philosophy)

Posted by
Chris on June 03, 1999 at 09:57:42:

In Reply to: Re: canker sores-- contagious? (Archive under Philosophy) posted by trish on June 02, 1999 at 22:35:24:

i'm rereading this first reply you gave to me, because it was sort of reposted at the top of the list. i think i see this in a different light now, although i'm not sure if i'm closer or farther away from understanding this correctly.
tell me if this sounds right, or closer:
there are germs that cause canker sores that are ubiquitous in the environment. normal people with normal immune systems are not affected by these germs. about 20% of the population has an damaged or defected immune system in that their immune system does not properly form a barrier against these germs. canker sores are contagious in the sense that the germ can migrate from one mouth to another, and if the person has a compromised immune system in the way that they are susceptible to canker sores, they will "catch" it, and if not, they will not.
the reason there is disagreement in the medical community is because canker sores differ from other infections, like, for example, herpes, because 1)the germ for canker sores is much easier to come into contact with, and will probably happen no matter what if your immune system is compromised in the right way, and 2)a higher percentage of the population is resistant to the canker sore germ. because of this, it seems that a canker sore outbreak is completely dependent on the person having the outbreak, since the canker sore germ is so ubiquitous that they will "catch" it from anywhere if their immune system compromises the right way.

this is how i have grasped what you said about contagion. tell me if i've got it right.

but still, i've read many times over that the causes of canker sores, or mouth ulcers, is not viral or bacterial. i have read, though, that they could possibly be an abnormal response to normal bacteria in the mouth. does this fit what you were saying about most people being resistant to it. does that mean that most people have the canker sore germ in their mouth and don't even need it to migrate from someone else's, just that for 80% of the population, this germ never provokes a sore?
from what i've read, many times, the cause of canker sores has absolutely nothing to do with viruses or bacteria, and are most often caused by stress or allergies.

partially confused,

chris



Re: canker sores-- contagious? (Archive under Philosophy)

Posted by Walt Stoll on June 03, 1999 at 13:45:32:

In Reply to: Re: canker sores-- contagious? (Archive under Philosophy) posted by Chris on June 02, 1999 at 18:57:49:

Hi, Chris.

What don't you "get"? How is YOUR immunity?

Mouth to mouth is the route of transfer.

Walt



Re: canker sores-- contagious? (Archive under Philosophy)

Posted by Walt Stoll on June 03, 1999 at 13:48:19:

In Reply to: Re: canker sores-- contagious? (Archive under Philosophy) posted by trish on June 02, 1999 at 22:35:24:

Thanks, trish.

Great explanation. At least I know that YOU understand this.

Perhaps I should have you help edit my new edition to make it more "user friendly" (grin)?

Namaste`

Walt



Re: canker sores-- contagious? (Archive under Philosophy) (Consider Narturopathy or Chiropractic.)

Posted by Walt Stoll on June 03, 1999 at 14:09:14:

In Reply to: Re: canker sores-- contagious? (Archive under Philosophy) posted by Chris on June 03, 1999 at 09:57:42:

Congratulations, Chris.

You now understand more about this than the majority of "docs" (MDs) you might see.

MDs are taught (pretty much) that one thing causes one thing. The vast majority of chronic conditions are multifactorial in their etiolgy. That means that it takes many causes, cooperating with each other, to actually cause the condition.

It is known that canker sores can be transmitted. It is also known that it takes a combination of several pathogenic organisms to cause a canker sore in anyone (AND NOT ALWAYS THE SAME ORGANISMS, EITHER). Basically, the person's immunity has to be pretty low for anyone to get them. If the contacted person doesn't have a low enough immunity, nothing happens since it is pretty hard to produce the exact conditions needed for the situation to happen.

Mono is the same way. It CAN be transmitted but it takes VERY close contact ("kissing disease") and the recipient has to have a lowered immunity (stress, exams, poor diet, lack of sleep, partying too much, etc.). The epstein barr virus is VERY weak so the conditions have to be just right for tranmission to take place. ALSO be sure to remember the "Bell Curve of Immunity" which is the genetic susceptibility we are born with. Some people can have ALL of the causes above & STILL will be perfectly healthy whereas others might only have one & get the disease.

Making more sense yet?

Stress, allergies, LGS, multiple pathogens acting in concert, biting your cheek, eating too much citrus or pineapple, etc, etc, all can contribute to canker sores: MULTIFACTORIAL.

The reason docs are confused is that we MDs are not taught to think in that way. That is why most people would be healthier if their primary physician was a Naturopath or Chiropractor. They ARE taught to think this way.

Call the MD when allopathic philosophy & training is what is needed: acute (Acute means short term, not serious as lots of people think of it.) & traumatic conditions.

Hope this helps. This is the kind of stuff that should be taught in public school---preferably kindergarten when kids still KNOW they do not know. By the teenage years, it is too late: they already know so they will not listen.

Walt



Walt, say the word -

Posted by
trish on June 03, 1999 at 16:12:22:

In Reply to: Re: canker sores-- contagious? (Archive under Philosophy) posted by Walt Stoll on June 03, 1999 at 13:48:19:

I stand ready to help you with anything you wish. I have been trying to find a way to repay you for all of your patient help with my and my mom...so really, I'd welcome the opportunity to help.

trish



Re: Walt, say the word -

Posted by Walt Stoll on June 04, 1999 at 11:13:12:

In Reply to: Walt, say the word - posted by trish on June 03, 1999 at 16:12:22:

Thanks, trish.

You are on the list of reviewers as of today.

I tried to connect to your email & it didn't work. Can you put it in in your next note so I will have a direct way to contact you?

Walt



I put my email address in ALL my messages...

Posted by
trish on June 04, 1999 at 14:22:25:

In Reply to: Re: Walt, say the word - posted by Walt Stoll on June 04, 1999 at 11:13:12:

Hmmm....you tried clicking on my name in blue at the top of the message? If you didn't get an immediate response, it's because I post my home email address here now - and I'm at work. :-)

Bob McFerran and I have had trouble with my home email, too, except that I can't email HIM. But I have received emails from others to that address, so I'm not sure what the heck is going on.

here it is again:

misstrish@mediaone.net - home
tscott@conning.com - work

I tried calling you at the 850-474 number, but you aren't there!

I'll try again next week.
trish



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