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http://www.bcrecovernet.org/skeptic/why_bogus_therapies_seem_to_work.htm
Many people come on here telling me that I am wrong for being a skeptic. I am proud of being a skeptic and here are some of the reasons why.
http://www.bcrecovernet.org/skeptic/why_bogus_therapies_seem_to_work.htm
In Reply to: For all the skeptics out there... posted by Jenna on February 24, 2001 at 18:32:29:
NMI
In Reply to: For all the skeptics out there... posted by Jenna on February 24, 2001 at 18:32:29:
Jenna,
I respect your skepticism; however, there are always two sides to every coin. If you are not familiar with the history of how, in the last 100 years or so, the medical profession has gained such prominence, I suggest you start by reading the attached link. I could supply you many more resources if you desire.
Doc Kim
In Reply to: Re: For all the skeptics out there... posted by Doc Kim on February 24, 2001 at 20:32:10:
Research isn't done by the so-called "allopathy monopoly." There is medical research being done by universities and other organizations, not to mention everything being studied in other countries. In actuality, new discoveries are being made all over the world. Don't you think SOMEONE would have proven some of the stuff discussed here?
In Reply to: One thing I don't understand posted by cd on February 24, 2001 at 21:08:07:
Research isn't done by the so-called "allopathy monopoly."
Or is it? Like most people don't do work that they don't get paid for, universities conduct studies that do or can bring money. As far as studies done in other countries, foreign studies were not accepted in the USA. I believe that has changed very recently. Are you aware that in Germany majority of drugs prescribed are herb extracts and enzyme products such Wobenzym. Those drugs have been extensively researched there and other countries, but their research wasn't accepted in the USA. I wonder why. I don't think that Germans (or any other) are less intelligent than Americans. So, could those with money and power have anything to do with that?
In actuality, new discoveries are being made all over the world. Don't you think SOMEONE would have proven some of the stuff discussed here?
And they have, you just don't hear about it. You don't even know much about does happen in your country. I am talking about discoveries. Let's take a chelation therapy, for example. I asked several people at work about it, and they had never heard of it, but they sure knew about bypass operations. However, if you talk to doctors who use this method on patients who had been told to have the operation or die, you will learn that chelation therapy is extremely effective for serious heart problems. This applies to many things. Have you heard of Dr. Burzynski and his discovery of a method to treat cancer. Perhaps, you have seen TV or radio reports about him being put to jail for practicing what wasn't approved by the FDA. Do you remember seeing his patients protest that? They were those who had been told than nothing would help them but were then cured by Dr. Burzynski's method. It is quite possible to suppress something that's good. You don't really believe that you live in a free country with a free flow of information, do you? By the way, you can hear about this Dr. Burzynski at Art Bell radio show tonight. www.artbell.com
In Reply to: One thing I don't understand posted by cd on February 24, 2001 at 21:08:07:
CD,
They have! Let me start with something I am most familiar: chiropractic. Several years ago the Agency for Health Care Planning and Research (AHCPR) released its recommdatons for the treatment of low back pain. This Federal agency did an exhaustive study of all the research on LBP and recommended chiropractic manipulation as one of the most effective and cost effective treatments for LBP.
Unable to accept expert criticism of spinal surgery, the North American Spine Society (NASS)immediately protested the research team's alleged bias and ineptitude and harshly criticized its preferred form of therapy(spinal manipulation). Furthermore, they took their attack on the AHCPR to Capitol Hill. A NASS board member/surgeon created a bogus patient lobbying group called the Center for Patient Advocacy that deluged Congress with misinformation about the AHCPR. This effort led the House of Representatives to pass a 1996 budget with zero funding for the AHCPR. Only after great efforts in the Senate to expose the reasons for the attacks was it possible to salvage some funding for the AHCPR. Ironically, its guideline development work was curtailed even though it was originally ordered to do so by a 1989 congressional mandate.
In 1993 The Government of Ontario commissioned a resercher named Manga to do a study on LBP for the Ontario Ministry of Health.
The "Executive Summary" of the Manga Report lists nine findings, among them:
-On evidence, particularly the most scientifically valid clinical studies, spinal manipulation applied by chiropractors is shown to be more effective than alternative treatments for LBP.
-There is an overwhelming body of evidence indicating that chiropractic management of low-back pain is more cost-effective than medical management.
In short, the Manga Report found chiropractic effective, cost-effective, scientifically founded, safe,and with higher patient satisfaction levels than the medical alternatives, and an "overwhelming case in favor of much greater use of chiropractic services in the management of low-back pain."
In spite of the research and proof of chiropractic's effectiveness, there continues to be a lot people who "don't beleive" in chiropractic or call it "unscientific".
This same attitude prevails with other treatment modalities. It seems not to matter what evidence there is, it is not enough to please some people. I call this the Platypus Syndrome. I tell a person about this animal that has fur, a bill, lays eggs and has webbed feet and they don't believe me. So, then, I go get one and hand it to them. They look at it, inspect it and then say: "I still don't believe you".
Dr. Stoll often quotes the Tolstoy effect because it is so pertinent to the attitudes of a lot of "skeptics". Look it up in the archives if you are not already familiar with it.
Namaste'
Doc Kim
In Reply to: Re: One thing I don't understand posted by R, on February 24, 2001 at 21:48:44:
You don't really believe that you live in a free country with a free flow of information, do you?
Of course I do. If something of importance happens, you'd better believe it is going to be in the American news. One thing that differs our country from some others is that our media ISN'T controlled by the government. Now that the internet is so widespread, repressing information in any country, much less the USA, is nearing impossibility.
The fact that this Dr. is going on the Art Bell show should speak for his credibility.
When people start mentioning conspiricies, it's generally my cue to end the discussion. However, if you do have any evidence, I WOULD be interested in it.
In Reply to: Re: One thing I don't understand posted by Doc Kim on February 24, 2001 at 21:51:40:
Thank you for the information, Dr. Kim.
In Reply to: You had me then you lost me posted by cd on February 24, 2001 at 22:20:37:
If something of importance happens, you'd better believe it is going to be in the American news.
If only this were true. The true meaning of the word journalism and truth in reporting do not exist any more. The news is more opinionated than ever and the topics are chosen for ratings, etc. Every night I read on the web various cites where there are legit press releases given on a variety of issues -- it's amazing how little of that makes it into the American news. It's rather astonishing. I can get 12 different views on the same news story that everyone is covering, but many of the important things never show up.
In Reply to: Re: For all the skeptics out there... posted by Doc Kim on February 24, 2001 at 20:32:10:
is one that is unwilling to listen to reason or accepted knowledge. I find this particularly true of those that wear the skeptic label with pride -- very unwilling to accept that there is a real world outside of their little box.
In Reply to: For all the skeptics out there... posted by Jenna on February 24, 2001 at 18:32:29:
Interesting article. Three things especially caught my eye.
[1]
If the practitioner claims persecution, is ignorant of or openly hostile to mainstream science, cannot supply a reasonable scientific rationale for his or her methods, and promises results that go well beyond those claimed by orthodox biomedicine, there is strong reason to suspect that one is dealing with a quack. Appeals to other ways of knowing or mysterious sounding "planes," "energies," "forces," or "vibrations" are other telltale signs, as is any claim to treat the whole person rather than localized pathology.
Yeah I know it sounds a lot like my dad. But it also sounds like a chapter out of the Salem witch hunters manual. I imagine that goes something like this: "If the witch claims that they are being unjustly persecuted and cannot provide scientific proof that they are NOT a witch, this is ample evidence that they must BE a witch."
Further, he strongly endorses "orthodox biomedicine" for many or all acute ailments. He rejects it for chronic conditions for which "orthodox biomedicine" admits it has no cure.
[2]
Read the section on the Placebo Effect. The Placebo effect is an incredibly powerful force, since scientists must do go to the trouble of making their experiments "double blind" to avoid the very statistically significant effect of Placebo. Seems to me we ought to be investigating how to put the Placebo effect to work for us.
[3]
Read the section on Spontaneous Remission. Here's a piece:
The exact mechanisms responsible for spontaneous remissions are not well understood, but much research is being devoted to revealing and possibly harnessing processes in the immune system or elsewhere that are responsible for these unexpected turnarounds. The relatively new field of psychoneuroimmunology studies how psychological variables affect the nervous, glandular, and immune systems in ways that might affect susceptibility to and recovery from disease (Ader and Cohen 1993; Mestel 1994). If thoughts, emotions, desires, beliefs, etc., are physical states of the brain, there is nothing inherently mystical in the notion that these neural processes could affect glandular, immune, and other cellular processes throughout the body. Via the limbic system of the brain, the hypothalamic pituitary axis, and the autonomic nervous system, psychological variables can have widespread physiological effects that can have positive or negative impacts upon health. While research has confirmed that such effects exist, it must be remembered that they are fairly small, accounting for perhaps a few percent of the variance in disease statistics.
I think their brushing this area off as "fairly small effects" is a bit negligent. The effects are dramatic (spontaneous cancer cure!) They simply haven't figured out how to control the effects, so STATISTICALLY they are "fairly small".
Along these lines, perhaps they will (re)discover Selye's work on the effect of stored stress. They've apparently only been working on psychoneuroimmunology for a few years, so let's hope they don't give up if they discover there is not very much money in patient education.
Bill
In Reply to: Re: For all the skeptics out there... posted by Doc Kim on February 24, 2001 at 20:32:10:
Hi Doc Kim,
Thanks for that link on the Flexnor Report. As you can probably imagine, it's interesting to sit where I sit, administering an alternative health BB, and attempt to read it with skepticism.
I believe that there was (and is) truly a problem with health quackery in the world. I think the AMA founders truly believed they were doing the right thing - protect people from unscrupulous or uneducated physicians. I do not think they had evil motives. And, I think they did accomplish a lot. They've certainly come a long way from the days of blood-letting, triple bypass surgery notwithstanding :)
However, I also believe that conventional medicine is very bad at treating chronic illness, and it is wrong to tell the patient "sorry I can't do more than relieve the pain" while persecuting docs whose therapies work just because those therapies are not mainstream yet.
Not related to your post, I know that so-called "health tips" can become mainstream due to special interest lobbying. Isn't it fascinating that the "Four Food Groups" taught to our children and endorsed by the government are controlled by lobbying from the meat and dairy industries? See this Earthsave link for one slant on the subject.
Bill
In Reply to: Re: For all the skeptics out there... posted by Bill on February 25, 2001 at 15:02:27:
after realizing that everything else out there is motivated by either the great $$$$ or stupidity or irrational egos (or all three), I had never thought about the food pyramid -- makes sense though. Sigh.
In Reply to: okay, fine, go ahead and burst yet another bubble... posted by LisaT on February 25, 2001 at 15:10:44:
Hi Lisa,
Change "makes sense" to "makes cents".
;-)
Doc Kim
In Reply to: Sigh.... posted by LT on February 25, 2001 at 05:18:07:
In Reply to: Re: okay, fine, go ahead and burst yet another bubble...correction posted by Doc Kim on February 25, 2001 at 15:15:45:
In Reply to: Re: For all the skeptics out there... posted by Bill on February 25, 2001 at 15:02:27:
Hi Bill,
You don't get enough credit for the job you do administering this site. Some day there may need to be a manual written for professional site administrators and you should write it!
I don't know if I can agree with you about the altruistic motives of the founders of the founders of the AMA and their contemporaries. If you read my other post concerning chiropractic and the shenanigans of the North American Spine Society, you see that the "me first, money first attitudes continue.
People tell me that attitudes are changing, but, I don't see it. Perhaps it is just my profession or the part of the country I am in, but, I still feel that the medical profession is just humoring us. I can't remember the last time I received a referral from n MD or DO. I still have people litterally crawling into my office after being treated with pain pills, muscle relaxors and heat by their "RD".
The system (at least in Michigan) appears completely devoid of any actuall concern for the patient. The most important thing seems to be the bottom line.
Perhaps 15 years of practice in this atmosphere has made me too cynical in my attitude towards the organized medical profession. I could go on for hours about the abuses of patients and the medical malpractice that I have seen, but what good will that do.
I do feel that it is better to light a candle than it is to curse the darkness; but, occasionally, my matches get a little damp.
Again, thanks for all you do!
Doc Kim
In Reply to: You had me then you lost me posted by cd on February 24, 2001 at 22:20:37:
Hi, cd -- If you want to know why your paper carries the stories it prints, and why so much goes undiscussed, just look at the advertisers.
The really wealthy and powerful companies and organizations (many of them government departments) have what the papers want: money and access to news stories. If either one dried up, the news organization would be belly-up.
Trust me, that's the way the world works. You won't hear the truth on many, many issues (I can think of a dozen off-hand) that would displease the powers-that-be if they appeared in the New York Times truthfully and in an unbiased manner. There's more disinformation here that is swallowed whole than ever in Soviet Russia. :-)
But don't let it get you down. The Internet is still pretty open, and there are lots of bright lights available at the click of a web search.
ls
In Reply to: part of the definition of a skeptic... posted by LT on February 25, 2001 at 05:18:26:
Who accept everything they hear without questioning it and get hurt by it over and over again.
You can't trust everyone, my friend.
In Reply to: Re: One thing I don't understand posted by Doc Kim on February 24, 2001 at 21:51:40:
Why is it that chiropractic seems to do the same thing that is so hated on this board? If chiropractic was so great, why does a person have to continue going to the chiropractor every week or whatever. It treats the symptoms? Why can't chiropractic solve the problem? I realize that medical doctors can't solve the problem sometimes, either. But I know people who have went to chiropractors every week for YEARS and now that they are in their old age, nothing helps anymore and some of them even believe that the chiropractic sessions made everything worse and at the very least, didn't solve the problem.
In Reply to: A question for Doc Kim posted by Jenna on February 26, 2001 at 17:18:43:
Hi Jenna,
Where in the world do you come up with this stuff??? I average seeing a patient about 11 times, total. Some patients more, some less. The ones I have to see more are the ones who:
A) Do the kind of work that tears up their body
B) Don't follow my nutritional program
C) Refuse to change their diet
D) Refuse to learn and practice Skilled Relaxation
E) Have let their body get into such a condition that requires more of my attention
F) Any combination of the above
To make a blanket statement that a person ..."has to go to the chiropractor every week or whatever" shows that you are ill-informed and irresponsible.
Good health does not come in a bottle or at the trained hands of a chiropractor. These are merely tools, albeit valuable ones. The overwhelming number of problems that I see in patients are self-inflicted. I can only help my patient by removing as much of their physical obstructions I can, and then, share with them whatever knowledge I can about what THEY must do on a continuing basis.
You must stop trying to "catch" people by using old wife's tales and pop mythology. Stop worrying about why Dr. Stoll lost his license and concentrate more on his messages.
He does not claim to have ALL the answers and neither do I. However, after you actually treat people for a period of time, you either start seeing the truth or you start living a lie. I could go on and on about the "miracles" that I have seen in my office, but, they would only be "miracles" to those who have been deluded into thinking that the only way people can heal is through the modalities of a trained medical doctor.
When you reach the point of understanding all this, and I pray you do soon, you will see the folly of the modern medical paradigm.
Until such time, please try to really know what you are talking about before posting.
Namaste'
Doc Kim
In Reply to: And then there are others... posted by Jenna on February 26, 2001 at 17:14:22:
you can't protect yourself by burrowing in the sand Jenna.
In Reply to: A question for Doc Kim posted by Jenna on February 26, 2001 at 17:18:43:
My husband has seen a chiropractor for numerous temporary ailments and felt great success each time. He coaches wrestling and injured his neck demonstrating a move to a student. He woke up the next day unable to turn his neck and with severe pain. First he saw his doctor who only prescribed Motrin, muscle relaxants, and heat which did not help. Went to a chiro who in two sessions completely cured the problem for the cheap price of $30 a session.
Another time he dislocated a rib in wrestling practice. Went straight to the chiro who replaced it in one session, and that was it. So in defense of chiropractors, you don't have to see them every weeek, and they are very beneficial to some people.
In Reply to: Re: An answer for Jenna posted by Doc Kim on February 26, 2001 at 20:58:18:
Thanks, Doc Kim.
By now, I had hoped for everyone to see that Jenna is having a grand old time throwing out outrageous statements and watching people scramble to try to teach her something reasonable.
Don't waste your time------
I understand the almost irresistable urge to comment about her silliness but you just have to resist it. ANY comments will just set her off again.
Have any of your attempts borne any fruit?
Namaste`
Walt
In Reply to: Re: An answer for Jenna posted by Doc Kim on February 26, 2001 at 20:58:18:
NMI
In Reply to: In support of chiropractic posted by Elizabeth on February 26, 2001 at 22:30:27:
Thanks, Elizabeth.
Not likely to change a hidebound skeptic like Jenna!
Namaste`
Walt
In Reply to: Re: An answer for Jenna posted by Walt Stoll on February 28, 2001 at 11:24:01:
Walt,
As you know I have felt and initially given in to that "irresistable urge" to comment. Any sincere attempts to communicate have not been fruitful.
As I try to skip past the plethora of silliness (very tactful description, by the way). I wanted to point out that beside the fact all of this is so irritating, it seems positively sad that someone like Jenna would put so much energy into mischief and hostility.
Your comments to Doc Kim's post are so well-stated. I admire what you do and if you are still reading every single post that's quite an admirable feat - you must have your waders on to do that!
Namaste`
June
ps - June.one is my new moniker since another June appeared.
In Reply to: Re: Walt, An answer for Jenna posted by June.one on February 28, 2001 at 20:47:15:
Thanks, June.one.
Namaste`
Walt
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