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Let the games begin! (Archive in CODEX.)

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Let the games begin! (Archive in CODEX.)

Posted by Walt Stoll [9.8] on April 05, 2004 at 05:32:25:

Comments?

Walt


FULL PHARMCO FRONTAL ASSAULT ...
The Pharmaceutical Industry Pulls Out All Stop in An Attempt to Control the Competitive Threat


THE NATIONAL ACADEMY OF SCIENCE FRONT...
Dietary Supplements: A Framework for Evaluating Safety...


"In this report, NAS has created so called "safety monographs" to encourage the FDA to yank Melatonin, Saw Palmetto Extract, DHEA, Shark Cartilage, Chromium Picolinate, and Chapparel off the market and to serve as "models" for yanking still MORE products off the shelves.
"Its important to realize that the National Academy of Sciences is totally dominated by pharmaceutical interests, and they're not part of the government so they're not subject to the Freedom of Information Act. FDA often hires them to generate self serving "reports" for this very reason- they're like cockroaches scurrying around under cover of DARKNESS. Since NAS is not subject to FOIA, we can't get the raw data they use to generate any of their biased so called "reports."

In their intro, NAS says "In line with these findings, members of the scientific and medical community have strongly advised that the regulatory mechanisms for monitoring the safety of dietary supplements as currently defined by DSHEA by revised. The contraints imposed upon the FDA with regard to insuring the absence of unreasonable risk associated with the use of dietary supplements make it difficult for the health of the American people to be adequately protected."

Now that FDA has illegally yanked ephedra off the market, unless they're successfully challenged in court via one or both of the pending lawsuits against them over this ban, The FDA will start pulling a LOT of additional products off the shelves using the NAS "model" as their "basis". We can expect them to make all kinds of misextrapolations from animal data, and engage in every sort of biased "reasoning" including banning dietary supplements because they "interract dangerously" with GENUINELY DANGEROUS Rx drugs." - John Hammell, IAHF

--Taken from The Bolen Report

Jerry M.

Reply with your po box or street address to get a
free copy of The Holistic Dental Digest PLUS - jmittelman@nyc.rr.com
What dentists aren't likely to learn in dental school.





Re: Let the games begin! (Archive in CODEX.)

Posted by Isis [664.4] on April 05, 2004 at 09:24:44:

In Reply to: Let the games begin! (Archive in CODEX.) posted by Walt Stoll [9.8] on April 05, 2004 at 05:32:25:

This really upsets me. I think we are losing our freedom to take supplements, left and right. I see the end coming, and I see it happening quickly.



Re: Let the games begin! (Archive in CODEX.)

Posted by peterb [17.14] on April 05, 2004 at 09:53:00:

In Reply to: Let the games begin! (Archive in CODEX.) posted by Walt Stoll [9.8] on April 05, 2004 at 05:32:25:

I'm hoping people will begin to digest the facts about the pharmaceutical test-and-review process, how FDA serves to accommodate an industry supporting its existence, and then begin to actively share this information with others by any means. The following is an earlier converation with another board member on this stubject that should help. References to the studies mentioned can be provided, though it may take a little time.

The only way to prevent these cowardly assaults on our health choice freedoms that are being staged to destroy the natural supplements industry, is by becoming a grass root effort individually. Don't be afraid to share what you learn with loved ones, or those at work and school. My responses below are shown in blue.

"There are VERY strict rules about what can be said about an FDA approved drug. Not so with OTC supplements."

The FTC is authorized to both challenge and sue supplement makers who make invalid claims, and they do so. One notable example is Metagenics, whose product "Bone Builder" claimed to support osteoblast activity in humans several years ago. Did MetaGenics lose in court? No, they won. They had the studies to back them up. Many of the negative comments you make about supplement makers in the absence of regulation stands in stark contrast to the many infractions of drug and food companies even WITH regulation. A huge percentage of the studies the FDA accepts as proof of drug "safety" are signed off on by doctors paid to affix their names, but whose analysis and review are not included in the price. It's simply a business, and we all know that profits are the over-riding priority for industry. The scientific studies, tainted and commoditized, are just there to validate the idea of a responsible approval process.

"Actually, the whole process and the definition of "works" is fairly transparent. If anyone from the pharma mucks with that definition, they get into big legal trouble."

And what, exactly, is that definition? Does it include long-term toxicology and other pharmacological effects, in order to protect the public health? Would it have prevented the recall of Baycol, Rezulin, Propulsid, PPA, Lotronex, or Zyprexa, and their associated fatalities, or illnesses? Clearly, something at FDA

Although I know the answer to these questions, I'm sure you have a different interpretation.

"Stop right there. OTC supplements don't even undergo limited clinical trials, never mind a four phase clinical trial process that takes years to complete."

Really? I could send you a truck load. Many of the constituent parts of natural supplements, including vitamins, minerals, fatty acids, polysaccharides, amino acids, enzymes, anti-oxidants, petptides, and other nutrients, have been studied extensively by universities and other research bodies, including some government health agencies, and producing quality research that surpasses most of what the FDA is approving on behalf of their corporate sponsors, the pharmaceuticals.

"You are implying that the FDA doesn't care about toxicity. Nothing could be further from the truth. In fact, Phase I trials ONLY test for toxicity. In addition, the less life-saving the potential of the drug, the lower the toxicity has to be in order to pass review."

You are lauding the short-term toxicological effects of drugs which are only required to demonstrate safety for a period of several months, rarely longer. And out of those several months of testing, we get a laundry list of dangerous side effects that portend greater health consequences down the road. And this is what you want to defend?

"Drugs MUST show an improvement to health, healing, or life extension in order to get approved. Unlike supplements, drugs HAVE to show evidence of positive results. They can't just do nothing."

I never stated that drugs do nothing. Their ability to provide symptom management while imparting dangerous side effects and shortening lifespan over periods of extended usage is the whole problem. It's also the industry's dirty little secret. The fact is, these medications kill 120,000 Americans each and every year, so there is ample proof for what I say. Certain classes of drugs, such as antibiotics, are clearly acceptable for crisis care situations, but most drugs cause illness and reduce lifespan while prolonging life only marginally for a small minority. A VERY small percentage experience significant life extension as a result of prescription medication. For every ONE of those, dozens more die prematurely as a result of drug side effects. Don’t think these patients are people who drink a quart of vodka at bedtime while downing 20 beta blockers at once. These are MEDICAL failures who hit the cold, hard dirt just before their doctor was going to write their next prescription.

Drug companies don't do studies to tell us exactly what the numbers are for specific drugs in terms of adjusted-for-attrition death rates, and FDA does not require such studies as they SHOULD, however we can look at the high mortality rates from prescription drug useage and see this is a major public health issue. A significat percentage of those taking heart medication, and sevearl other drug classes, are losing YEARS of lifespan they would have had otherwise, if they had just avoided these well-tested toxins so carefully approved and reviewed by FDA and their corporate sponsors (ie., the companies making the drugs.)


---- addt'l comments ----

The passage of DSHEA in 1994 occurred when health-advocate testimony persuaded Congress that natural supplements are not subject to the same standards of safety as synthetic drugs for several important reasons. One, humans have evolved to metabolize naturally-occuring substances but have not evolved to metabolize man-made pharmaceuticals. Second, natural supplements have demonstrated so few toxic-associated fatalities that there is insufficient forensic evidence on which to base adequate evaluation of these medical events. And while it WOULD be possible to apply the same methods of clinical analysis for evaluating synthetic drugs to an evaluation of natural supplements, the long-term evidence of safety in the use of the overwhelming majority of natural supplements has made this unncessary. [Note: the few incidents of toxic-associated fatalities that ARE attributable to natural supplements have been linked to use of synthetically manufactured vitamins, which continue to be classified as "natural," but which are not naturally-occuring.] And third, the historical failure of FDA to prove the danger of natural supplements using the scientific method even when invited to do so. Consequently, it's only fair that manufacturers of pharmaceuticals should bear the burden of proof that their products do not present an unreasonable risk to public health. At the same time, the only burden of proof on suppliers of natural supplements is the efficacy of those products in the open marketplace, where consumers can use what works and discard what doesn't.

The burden of proof on pharmaceuticals to ensure the relative safety of their products excludes any demonstration that synthetic drugs impart HEALTH, HEALING or disease PREVENTION to any portion of the public whatsoever. If that was the test by which they were measured, neither the FDA nor drug companies would continue to exist. By contrast, of the thousands of naturally-occuring substances we find in nature and manufactured within our own bodies, very few present a risk to health except when ingested in abnormal, and extremely inconvenient, quantities. Yet, natural vitamin studies have shown tremendous health benefits over many years to those who use them.

The FDA embraces pharma-sponsored study results that are designed to provide certain disease response markers in subjects, but nothing more. There is no assurance of long-term safety or effectiveness in use of synthetic drugs. In the world of pharmaceutical medicine, the words “treatment,” and “prevention” have wholly different meanings than those which average Americans would consider appropriate for their safety and long-term health. Again, natural vitamin studies have demonstrated irrefutable disease prevention without any observed side effects in literally thousands of people. This is sometimes true even with synthetic vitamins, such as synthetic folate, however the natural forms have almost always been proven more effective. The use of vitamin C, for instance, has been shown to provide a dramatic disease prevention effect, without no side effects.

America has experienced numerous drug recalls over the past fifty years, but how many times have we seen a recall of vitamins, minerals, and herbs? Incidentally, it was patently dishonest for FDA to pull ephedra from market shelves, while allowing the far more dangerous synthetic form, ephedrine, to continue to be sold in cold remedies on every drug-store shelf in America. Certainly, there are herbal formulas and anabolic supplements that might produce dangerous side effects in those taking them contrary to the labeling instructions. Even water will kill if taken in excess.

I suggest you read two important books on the subject of pharmaceuticals and government oversight: 1) "Prescription for Profits: How the Pharmaceutical Industry Bankrolled the Unholy Marriage Between Science and Business, by Linda Marsa; and, 2) "The Big Fix: How the Pharmaceutical Industry Rips Off American Consumers," by Katharine Greider.

"When a prescription drug goes to market, the consumer knows that it has been tested in the lab, tested on lab animals, and tested on people."

However, they may not know the drug's sponsor is the sole source of test data upon which the FDA bases its opinion.

"They know that the tests showed evidence that the drug works."

However, they often don't know how the drug companies, and the FDA, defines "works." The fact that individual markers of disease are responsive to a drug in limited clinical trials doesn't mean the drug is safe, effective or "proven." Nor does it provide information as to the long-term affects on overall health. The list of potential side effects may appear comprehensive as a review of the drugs negative qualities, but in reality falls far short of that. Further, it isn't well understood by the public that a "successful" drug may not "save" more lives than it terminates through attrition. This is the drug industry's dirtiest little secret. While a few drugs may at times extend life as a result of their ability to control dangerous disease symptoms, there is no requirement by drug companies to assess the percentage of patients who die sooner than they would have without them.

"They know that the drug was tested for toxic effects and that if any side effects were found that they will be listed on the insert."

The clinical trials are just long enough to list the majority of short-term effects, not those which would become apparent over longer periods of time. A variety of studies (how many sponsored by the pharmas?) have brought this to light recently.

"In other words, PROVEN safe, unless otherwise noted."

Again, WHOSE definition of "Proven," and WHOSE definition of “Safe?”

"They know that there are controls in place to make sure that what is on the label is what is in the bottle."

And therein lies the question: Do you want what's on the label??

-----------
"…, the published studies are also read by those who are searching for a way to market [natural supplements] … based on some obscure referrence that is made in such a study."

I agree, there are plenty of natural supplements providing limited value to overall human health, but to be fair, it depends on the individual condition and the individual's comfort level with the particular supplement chosen. For instance, some people are not going to take a whole food supplement powder, and will take "Centrum" instead, even though there are far more nutrients in the powder. The fact that some herbal formulas are more effective than others simply underscores the fact that we have choices, and choices are better than no choices.
More importantly, your observation points to how pharmaceuticals extend their sales of existing drugs, recycling them for completely new uses. Here's how it works. Existing drugs are evaluated for about 3 months in "tests" that consider their effects in conditions they were never designed for. If even minimal symptom-management benefits are observed, these drugs are approved and the drug company gets to remarket that drug just like a car company that markets a new model by using the same chassis with a new exterior. Of course, there are plenty of instances where the drug in its original use was a money loser, so the drug company is simply trying to recover its original R&D costs. This is extremely in the industry, but most people aren't aware that FDA doesn't require stringest clinical trials before these drugs are "approved" for conditions they were not originally designed for. Yes, the drug had already been tested for "safety" on the front end, but this ripshod process gives you some idea how market-driven the test-and-review system really is. Since drugs are so dangerous, this is really a serious matter for which FDA is ultimately liable.

--------------------

When questioned about the veracity of the JAMA 1998 study which culled mortality statistics related to prescription and OTC medications (I could not locate the original question.)

JAMA's study specifically evaluated mortality caused by complications attributed to side effects of the drugs themselves. If the patient's underlying condition was listed as the cause of death, even the possibility of accelerated death resulting from drug effects would not have been counted. In other words, the counting process assumed mortality from the underlying disease UNLESS the mortality was obviously drug-induced. Obviously, many more deaths than this occur from disease in the United States, but the fact is, the number of deaths occuring due to drug drug side effects is almost certainly more we are counting, perhaps dramatically more. It isn't that JAMA's method of collecting data was flawed, it just wasn't comprehensive.

Some like to talk about all the people that drugs save, people who live longer because of the drugs they take. They are completely in the dark and swallow the pharma-owned-press PR spin like it was candy. Sure, there are a small percentage of people whose lives ARE extended by prescription medication since even symptom-managed protocols can avert medical crisis in some patients, but we are talking about a very small percentage. And those numbers are dramatically offset by all the mortalities CAUSED by prescription and OTC drugs.

I don't know the exact percentage of prescription drug deaths relative to the total number of prescription drug users. But I can come pretty close. If even half of every American routinely takes a prescription drug (it's probably lower, so my result will be all the more conservative), the percentage would be .087%. That's roughly one death out of every 1,000 people taking a prescription drug! Now, my question to you is this: what happens when a natural supplement or food item kills one person out of one thousand? The answer is that our all-protecting FDA issues a dire warning to the public and proceeds to ban that product from the marketplace, as it recently did with Ephedra, under the guise of "protecting the public."

The recent Ephedra announcement (and the ban effective 4-12-04) was due to a potential association with TWO mortality events (not proven according to the Dept. of Health and Human Services). How many people have been taking ephedra-based products, and what is the percentage of suspected mortality? I wasn't able to get an exact figure on numbers of users, but it's at least one million people, so let's use that conservative number. This means the FDA has banned a natural supplement on the basis of a 0.0002% suspected mortality event! This amounts to just one person out of half a million people! What's more, the forensics are inadequate to scientifically validate causation! But there's more. The ban only applies to natural ephedra supplements, not to the hundreds of evidentially more dangerous synthetic ephedrine alkoloids already available in all those "safe" OTC cold formulas sitting on our store shelves, which are PROVEN in the JAMA study to contribute to at least 120,000 deaths each and every year!

The facts:

> No scientific evidence exists to show that KAVA causes liver damage. The forensic evidence that does exist suggests its affect on liver enzymes may contribute to hepatic abnormalities in those consuming alcohol, sedatives, or anti-depressants at the time. It may also compromise liver function in those with existing liver disease. Consequently, those with hepatic disfunction, and those using these medications, should avoid its use.

> Adverse liver effects in people consuming Kava (there have been a few dozen out of MILLIONS of users, but only TWO deaths) were never tested for previous hepatic abnormalities. One of those receiving a liver transplant was a heavy alchohol user.

> People may experience allergic-like reactions to Kava as they may with any other herbal product, or prescription medication.

> Kava is approximately the 8th-selling supplements world-wide, and the number of deaths attributed to its use is zero, although FDA believes it may be implicated in several deaths. Keep in mind, there are millions of people using KAVA all the time, and yet, in a single year, aspirin kills more people than Kava has killed during your entire lifetime!

> Consumption of OTC pain killers kill more people, including children, in ONE year than ALL natural supplements combined have killed over the past TEN years.

> FDA is a corrupt bureacracy that clearly deserves to be reorganized from the ground up, with new levels of oversight, controls, and test-and-review methods. Most drugs should simply be banned for good. There are very few safe classes of drugs, so the size of FDA could be reduced dramatically, saving the taxpayer many millions of dollars. "Falsification by Distracting Anecdotes" (FDA) is not an example of public health service, it’s an abuse of public trust.

To help fight the EU Foods Directive that is the main tool of pharmaceutical companies to destroy our access to natural supplements, please support the ANH NON-PROFIT legal effort before it's too late. We have months, not years.

Follow Ups:


Re: Let the games begin! (Archive in CODEX.)

Posted by Bob M. [1697.203] on April 05, 2004 at 22:02:31:

In Reply to: Re: Let the games begin! (Archive in CODEX.) posted by Isis [664.4] on April 05, 2004 at 09:24:44:

Isis…
No, the end is NOT coming. The brawl is just beginning. Dr. Stoll is a beacon who's been bringing these outrages to our attention for quite a while. Now, it's time for us to get off our butt and do something.
Judicial and bureaucratic activism, supported by the best politicians money can buy, are ripping away even our most innocuous freedoms on a daily basis. America is a candy store for the rich and powerful…only they have the key. The working middle class doesn't. We are admitted only after the store closes, to sweep the floor and re-stock the shelves. Then we're booted out, where we stand, open-mouthed, empty handed, looking in. But just 'til the shelves need re-filling…then we're let in again. I think it's called taxation. Oh, yes…and exorbitant prices.
Have you noticed that there are no more mom and pop stores…places where you could walk in, be greeted by name and buy a quality product, quite possibly something made in the USA? Something that might last past two washings or a bit of use? Shortly, the American landscape will just have huge depots, great warehouses crammed with junk, strategically located for easy access by a populace numbed by a constant stream of electronic entertainment and for whom the concept of quality is alien. As the formerly free-ranging American mind is thus lassoed and controlled by the ever-present media, so also is our quest for health in a world where corporate greed has sacrificed the living tissue of the population to its bottom line.
We who seek natural healing, we who look back to the evolutionary forces that allowed us to survive because nature's benevolent wisdom put everything on the planet that we needed, WE are the enemy of those who have made us ill and who seek to profit even more from the harm they have already inflicted. (Long sentence, but stay with me….)
"They" made us sick. "They" made money MAKING us sick. Now, they want to make MORE money pretending to heal us. And if, through enlightenment, we find ways to haul ourselves out of the mess THEY'VE made and thereby deprive them of the profits they seek, we and our methods will first be condemned as "dangerous," next "regulated" and finally removed from all public access. Wanna get better? Gotta come to us…cost ya $'s for a prescription for 25 mgm of vitamin C (Ah, wrong…it's ascorbic ACID) and you're gonna pay the drug company's inflated price for their brand name product. Generic vitamin C? Not available. Rose hips? Liable to stunt your growth.
I think we all know what's going on. Dr. Stoll has been sounding the alarm for years. Well, it's up to us now. We must be focused. We have to arm ourselves with the knowledge of what's going on and what the remedies are. Then, we must act. We must bring overwhelming pressure upon the legislative courtesans who are dancing to the tunes the corporate fiddlers are playing.
No, not the end, Isis. The beginning. We're going to use the tools at hand to gather a great wave of anger, outrage and righteous indignation and aim it at those who want to steal our rights and freedoms. I'm a bit pissed off, I think you are, too, and there's room for every other like-minded seeker of nature's gift of good health.
Dr. Walter Stoll daily pays the price of all who run counter to the run-amok bureaucracy, the organizations, societies and corporations whose special interest and greed has each of us in their sights.
Well, we're gonna fight back. You watch…
Bob M.



Re: Let the games begin! (Archive in CODEX.)

Posted by Lincoln [32.20] on April 06, 2004 at 01:01:22:

In Reply to: Let the games begin! (Archive in CODEX.) posted by Walt Stoll [9.8] on April 05, 2004 at 05:32:25:

Of course companies try to protect their turf.

Why anyone should assume that supplement companies are benevolent do-gooders while pharma companies are inherently evil is beyond me. Supplement companies aren't as politically powerful as the big pharma companies, this is certainly true. But supplement companies are every bit as profit-motivated and slimey as pharmaceutical companies - maybe more so. I can name several supplement companies run by felony convicted drug dealers and/or drug users. There have been numerous reports of fake ingredients in supplements. They're all out to get your money.



Re: Let the games begin! (Archive in CODEX.)

Posted by Mary [69.123] on April 06, 2004 at 01:15:53:

In Reply to: Re: Let the games begin! (Archive in CODEX.) posted by Bob M. [1697.203] on April 05, 2004 at 22:02:31:

BRAVO, BOB!!!!!!!

I couldn't agree more!

Isis, it's time to get involved. It's amazing what taking action can accomplish.

My suggestion would be to get on John Hammel's mailing list and send a donation. That's a good start.

Follow Ups:


Re: Let the games begin! (Archive in CODEX.)

Posted by Isis [664.4] on April 06, 2004 at 07:49:50:

In Reply to: Re: Let the games begin! (Archive in CODEX.) posted by Lincoln [32.20] on April 06, 2004 at 01:01:22:

Lincoln, there may be plenty of examples of slimy supplement businesses etc. but I am going to cry if my DLPA is taken away from me. I take Twinlabs DLPA (Twinlabs has a good reputation) and it takes away my arthritis/chondromalacia/fibromyalgia pain better than narcotics, with much less damage to my body. It's an amino acid, so it's probably going to be one of the first supplements to go.

And if it does become a pharmaceutical instead of something I can buy, then I still will never see it because it will be expensive and the Army will refuse to prescribe it for me on that basis alone. I can't get any of the newer arthritis drugs, I am told to make do with motrin or tylenol. It took me raising a real fuss before I could even get Elmiron for my interstitial cystitis.

If they take my D-Phenylalanine away from me, I will go back to being unable to exercise, unable to enjoy life, being almost crippled. Interestingly enough, doctors often prescribe D-Phenylalanine for arthritis pain...

So, yes, I DO care if they take all the supplements away, and I'm sure a lot of other people feel the same way, who are benefitting from supplements.


Follow Ups:


Re: Let the games begin! (Archive in CODEX.)

Posted by Isis [664.4] on April 06, 2004 at 07:55:18:

In Reply to: Re: Let the games begin! (Archive in CODEX.) posted by Bob M. [1697.203] on April 05, 2004 at 22:02:31:

I hate to be cynical but I think there is nothing we can do.

We will be like the tribe in South America who were worked to death and discared while being paid only Coca leaves for their labor.

The gap between rich and poor is growing wider and wider. Soon only the richest 10% will be able to afford traditional medical care and medicine - the rest of us will have nothing, because our non-traditional medical care and supplements will have been taken away from us.

You see, they think they can get more money from us that way, if they wipe out alternative treatments. What they don't understand is, everyone but the top 5% of the country is getting poorer and poorer, and does not have any wealth to give, even if they are terribly sick and desperately in need of medical care.

And everything you said about there no longer being a middle class in America is right on the mark. And it's going to get worse and worse with every year.

And let's toss in problems from weather patterns changing, famine because of genetically engineered crops, lack of energy to run cars, heat homes or run businesses, etc. and the next 40 years or so will truly be hell on earth for us...



Re: Let the games begin! (Archive in CODEX.)

Posted by dd [1706.26] on April 06, 2004 at 15:09:55:

In Reply to: Re: Let the games begin! (Archive in CODEX.) posted by Lincoln [32.20] on April 06, 2004 at 01:01:22:

Lincoln,

There a quite a few wonderful supp companies that
have trials, and studies, and that have "done it right."
Please, include these companies in your comments. If
you are unaware of these companies....PLEASE
EDUCATE YOURSELF BEFORE YOU WRITE MORE OF
THIS CRAP! It isn't black and white. The pharma in
general was supposed to be about helping people, or
so we were told. Without getting into a discussion
about that aspect, it is very well understood that they
have gouged people monetarily, and many creeps have
an ulterior motive to see that money rolling in. On that
point alone, it is no different than a big corporation, with
a few big dudes making a sh_ _load of money, while
we struggle to pay for healthcare costs. If they REALLY
cared, THEY WOULD DO ANYTHING NECESSARY TO
GET US HEALTHY, AND THAT INCLUDES PAYING
FOR LONGTERM TRIALS TO SEE JUST WHAT
NATURAL SUBSTANCES DO FOR US!!!!!!!! That is not
their agenda though....you are blind if you think it is.

I want my supplements. I have done the research to
find the companies I believe in, and I WANT TO HAVE
THE CHOICE TO BUY WHAT I WANT. If the government
gives people the chioce to buy and eat things that they
know might kill them, them I WANT THE CHOICE TO
BUY MY SUPPLEMENTS!! I don't care what you think
about them being useful. FOR ME, THEY ARE, AND I
SHOULD HAVE THE RIGHT TO DO WHAT I NEED TO
DO TO TAKE CARE OF MY HEALTH!!!!!!!!!!!. End of
story!!!!!! Yes, I am yelling at you.


I WANT THE FREEDOM OF CHOICE, and this seems to
be what YOU ARE MISSING HERE!!!!!. I don't want to
have to go to a doctor, THAT DOESN'T TAKE THE TIME
TO KEEP EDUCATING THEMSELVES, especially on
holistic medicine and products, not writing me a
prescription that I ask for because they don't FEEL that
it would help me. Who are THEY??? My friggin
parents???? And just as bad....if they do agree to
write me a prescription, I will be having to pay not only
my monthly insurance, but a heft co-pay, hours of my
time, AND HOPE FOR REFILLS?????? When I
know more about the damned subject myself because I
TOOK THE TIME TO GET EDUCATED AND ACTUALLY
TRY IT OUT, I heavily resent someone else telling me
what is good for me, WHEN IS SEE A FREAKING
BURGER KING AND STARBUCKS ON EVERY CITY
BLOCK CORNER!!!!!! Give me a break Lincoln.

Why can't you just back OFF??? I am so tired of these
comments from you. YOU OBVIOUSLY HAVEN'T
TRIED ANY OF THESE SUPPS ENOUGH TO KNOW
WHAT THEY OFFER!! They DO HAVE BENEFITS, and I
am one of millions of people that are experiencing this
and can testify. We aren't nuts, and we have TAKEN
THE TIME TO FIGURE IT OUT AND TO TRY IT!!!
Doctors and scientists, and
researchers.....remember....they know what they know,
and they DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY DON'T KNOW. I
would like to see TRUTHFUL documentation on just
how much time has actually been spent on trials for
natural supplements versus man-made drugs.

PLEASE......GIVE IT A REST until you have done
research for a viable supp company, AND TRIED IT
YOURSELF. When you are SO NEGATIVE about supp
companies, IT SCREAMS TO ME AND THIS BOARD
THAT YOU HAVEN'T ACTUALLY TAKEN THE TIME TO
SEE IF IT IS VALID!! Most of us have, we have
experiemented what works for each of us, continue to
do so, and WOULD LIKE TO CONTINUE TO HAVE THE
CHOICE TO BE IN OUR OWN DRIVERS' SEAT!!

Thank you!

dd




Re: Let the games begin! (Archive in CODEX.)

Posted by dd [1706.26] on April 06, 2004 at 15:56:35:

In Reply to: Re: Let the games begin! (Archive in CODEX.) posted by Bob M. [1697.203] on April 05, 2004 at 22:02:31:

Bob,

Thank you for that. It brought me just a shred of hope to
read what you wrote. I am pretty pissed off myself.

My question to you is this...Besides giving money for the
legal battle, and besides writing our politicians, and
besides signing the petition......(done all that) what
else? Marches and protests?? The letters were a
COMPLETE waste of time. A generated letter about the
War was what I got in return. Letters don't do a dang
thing anymore. When Bush decided to go to war, even
though millions were protesting around the world, he
said he didn't care, he was going to do what he wanted.
(of course, my interpretation of what he said)!


A few months ago a group of people invaded a political
meeting in Oakland, CA. I don't remember the details,
but it was a heavy subject at hand, and they felt it was
the only way to finally be heard. I believe it was about
the violence that has been so terribly growing in their
community. When they crashed the city meeting, the
council could not proceed with the agenda. The people
weren't violent, just present, and LOUD. It made the
news and a great impact on action taken.

I am not sure that we can deal with Codex without
getting out there, literally. I think it will have to be
massive amounts of people involved. What do you
think?

Thanks again for your wise words.

dd



Re: Let the games begin! (Archive in CODEX.)

Posted by Bob M. [1697.203] on April 06, 2004 at 19:17:41:

In Reply to: Re: Let the games begin! (Archive in CODEX.) posted by dd [1706.26] on April 06, 2004 at 15:56:35:

DD...
We need YOU...thanks for your thoughts.
Yeah, we're probably going to have to get heavy-handed. But, if it works, it works.
This is a street brawl...bunch of people want our money and our freedom.
We're not going to give up either, without a fight.
Stay tuned...
Bob M.



Re: Let the games begin! (Archive in CODEX.)

Posted by Bob M. [1697.203] on April 06, 2004 at 19:20:56:

In Reply to: Re: Let the games begin! (Archive in CODEX.) posted by dd [1706.26] on April 06, 2004 at 15:09:55:

DD...
Couldn't have said it better.
I want my supplements. I have done the research to
find the companies I believe in, and I WANT TO HAVE
THE CHOICE TO BUY WHAT I WANT. If the government
gives people the chioce to buy and eat things that they
know might kill them, them I WANT THE CHOICE TO
BUY MY SUPPLEMENTS!! I don't care what you think
about them being useful. FOR ME, THEY ARE, AND I
SHOULD HAVE THE RIGHT TO DO WHAT I NEED TO
DO TO TAKE CARE OF MY HEALTH!!!!!!!!!!!. End of
story!!!!!! Yes, I am yelling at you.
Our recruiting office will stay open 'til you get here.
Bring your weapon...
Bob M.



Re: Let the games begin! (Archive in CODEX.)

Posted by Bob M. [1697.203] on April 06, 2004 at 19:35:46:

In Reply to: Re: Let the games begin! (Archive in CODEX.) posted by Lincoln [32.20] on April 06, 2004 at 01:01:22:

Lincoln…
We're not endowing supplement companies with ecclesiastical virtue…and that's not the point, anyway.
It's about freedom of choice. You have the freedom to make your views known, so do I.
And I want the SAME freedom to go to a little shop somewhere and buy whatever the hell poison I choose for my hay fever…not what some bean counter and PR flack in a pharma company wants to stuff down my throat because it's good for their bottom line.
I'm sick of being "regulated…" It's just another word for CONTROLLED, and control equals bucks.
DD's got it right…
Bob M.


Follow Ups:


Re: Let the games begin! (Archive in CODEX.)

Posted by dd [1706.26] on April 06, 2004 at 19:39:00:

In Reply to: Re: Let the games begin! (Archive in CODEX.) posted by Bob M. [1697.203] on April 06, 2004 at 19:20:56:

LOL!

Follow Ups:


Re: Let the games begin! (Archive in CODEX.)

Posted by dd [1706.26] on April 06, 2004 at 19:41:31:

In Reply to: Re: Let the games begin! (Archive in CODEX.) posted by Bob M. [1697.203] on April 06, 2004 at 19:17:41:

I'm right there with you.

dd

Follow Ups:


Re: Let the games begin! (Archive in CODEX.)

Posted by dd [1706.26] on April 06, 2004 at 22:45:06:

In Reply to: Re: Let the games begin! (Archive in CODEX.) posted by Isis [664.4] on April 06, 2004 at 07:55:18:

Isis,

Probably, you are right. But we have to fight it in case
there is a shred of hope. I am just like you. I want to
feel hope...it is difficult. I am a fighter by nature. Even
though I would like to give up the fight for human rights,
I know inside that I won't. Even though I see the truth of
how things are, my spirit keeps telling me to plug away
anyway. Futile? My head says yes it is. My "head"
would like to stop thinking about this stuff...but like you
said, we are just seeing the first effects, and the next 40
years (a least!) will be a battle. A huge battle, on
EVERY level. It isn't going to be nice, in any case.

I didn't know the exact amount of minimum wage until
the other day. For some reason, I thought it had
climbed to $8.00, but found that the federal standard
was only $5.15/hr. Unbelievable. $6.75 I think here in
California. When I was 14 (1975?), minimun wage
was $2.35/hr, and that was CRAP. Back then, we
bought a big 5 bedroom home, NICE home, with a
pool, a large lot, etc...in San Jose for $60,000. My dad
just sold that home last may for almost $800,000. Now
let me get this straight.....the minimum wage has only
gone up $4.40/hr in almost 30 years???? It hasn't
even quite tripled, but the house has gone up over a
dozen times in its value? What is wrong with this
picture?.....and....so, it seems that our reality of what is
right, what is fair, what is REALISTIC is just out the
window. A gallon of Horizon milk will take over an hour
of work to earn. That is criminal.

Poverty level is at some odd LOW level here in the bay
area, not even enough to pay rent and food. I just don't
see how some people are surviving at all. I guess
some aren't.

Well Isis....all you can do is fight the good fight,
remember who you are and what you stand for, be
loving to yourself and to others, do your SR to relieve
the stress, and watch the animals everyday to
remember peace. We may not make it, but in the
meantime, hang on to and cherish whatever you have
that makes life worth living. We are definitely in for a
bumpy ride. But, you won't be alone. There are going
to be a lot of pissed of people. I talked to as many
people about this as i can. Some look at me like I am
nuts, and some just get so freaked about losing the
right to choose. Most don't know about Codex, or they
have just heard bits a pieces.

dd

Follow Ups:


Re: Let the games begin! (Archive in CODEX.)

Posted by dd [1706.26] on April 06, 2004 at 22:57:06:

In Reply to: Re: Let the games begin! (Archive in CODEX.) posted by Bob M. [1697.203] on April 05, 2004 at 22:02:31:

So Bob,

i am really giving this thing some thought. Protests
should start NOW. i have never tried to get a protest
together. How do you go about it? How do you get the
word out about something like this. We have such
huge protests here in San Francisco. I wonder if this
will pale badly, and not look so hot if the numbers are
low. My other thought was to call up a news station, tell
them that there will be a group of people at the
Senators office, demanding that they be heard.
Coverage? Sounds radical, but will grap the publics
attention so they say, "what? what is codex?"

What do you think?

dd



Re: Let the games begin! (Archive in CODEX.)

Posted by Walt Stoll [9.8] on April 07, 2004 at 06:38:37:

In Reply to: Re: Let the games begin! (Archive in CODEX.) posted by Lincoln [32.20] on April 06, 2004 at 01:01:22:

Thanks, Lincoln.

No arguement with that. I would, however, remind you of the old adage: "Throwing out the baby with the bathwater." The solution is not to deny the public the right to choose. The current pharmaceutical scandal is a wake-up call.

Walt



Re: Let the games begin! (Archive in CODEX.)

Posted by PhillyLady [1906.913] on April 07, 2004 at 08:30:38:

In Reply to: Re: Let the games begin! (Archive in CODEX.) posted by dd [1706.26] on April 06, 2004 at 22:57:06:

dd:

I suggested a protest before on this board. No one seemed interested. I felt a march on Washington would have been appropriate.



Re: Let the games begin! (Archive in CODEX.)

Posted by dd [1706.26] on April 07, 2004 at 14:52:54:

In Reply to: Re: Let the games begin! (Archive in CODEX.) posted by PhillyLady [1906.913] on April 07, 2004 at 08:30:38:

PhillyLady,

Perhaps the board wasn't ready? Maybe now they
would respond? Couldn't hurt to try again. Have you
ever gotten one of these together? I wouldn't even
know where to begin.

dd



Re: Let the games begin! (Archive in CODEX.)

Posted by PhillyLady [1906.913] on April 07, 2004 at 15:07:28:

In Reply to: Re: Let the games begin! (Archive in CODEX.) posted by dd [1706.26] on April 07, 2004 at 14:52:54:

dd:

I am, and have been thinking about it. In the process of enlisting the help of some trusted individuals for this project. Stay tuned.



Re: Let the games begin! (Archive in CODEX.)

Posted by dd [1706.26] on April 07, 2004 at 15:27:21:

In Reply to: Re: Let the games begin! (Archive in CODEX.) posted by PhillyLady [1906.913] on April 07, 2004 at 15:07:28:

I am very interested, and will stay tuned. Let me know.
I really want to be involved.

Thanks,

dd

Follow Ups:


Re: Let the games begin! (Archive in CODEX.)

Posted by Lincoln [32.20] on April 09, 2004 at 12:53:19:

In Reply to: Re: Let the games begin! (Archive in CODEX.) posted by Walt Stoll [9.8] on April 07, 2004 at 06:38:37:

Agreed. Along with saying "don't throw out the baby with the bath water", let's add "don't bother to lock the barn door after the horse has already gotten out."

Follow Ups:


Re: Let the games begin! (Archive in CODEX.)

Posted by Lincoln [32.20] on April 09, 2004 at 13:00:08:

In Reply to: Re: Let the games begin! (Archive in CODEX.) posted by dd [1706.26] on April 06, 2004 at 15:09:55:

Once again, you've posted a very lengthy diatribe filled with NOTHING except vague generalizations and gross exaggerations of my viewpoint.

But if I follow your line of argument, it appears you it would be in favor of complete de-regulation of pharmaceutical drugs as well as supplements. Interesting. You are certainly welcome to that opinion.

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