Diabetes Archives

No benefit to aggressive blood sugar lowering?

[ Diabetes Archive ]
[ Main Archives Page ] [ Glossary/Index ]
[ FAQ ] [ Recommended Books ] [ Bulletin Board ]
   Search this site!
 
        

No benefit to aggressive blood sugar lowering?

Posted by Mike-S [10264.9791] on July 26, 2011 at 14:51:51:

Dr. Stoll: What do you think of this? IMO BG should be low enough to minimize or better yet eliminate diabetes complications without hypoglycemia:


Researchers find no benefit to aggressive blood sugar lowering


http://www.endocrineweb.com/news/type-2-diabetes/6556-researchers-find-no-benefit-aggressive-blood-sugar-lowering


Mike-S



Follow Ups:



Re: No benefit to aggressive blood sugar lowering? Archive.

Posted by Walt Stoll [93.9765] on July 26, 2011 at 15:20:33:

In Reply to: No benefit to aggressive blood sugar lowering? posted by Mike-S [10264.9791] on July 26, 2011 at 14:51:51:

Hi, Mike.

The fact that aggressive control of blood sugar levels does not seem to reduce long term diabetic complications has been known for at least 50 years. This contraintuitive fact is no fun to know but, unfortunately it is true, IMO.

Certainly the triggering of hypoglycemia is a LOT more damaging and risky than the hyperglycemia.

Hope this helps.

Walt


Go to First Post in this Thread

Follow Ups:



Re: No benefit to aggressive blood sugar lowering? Archive.

Posted by Juli [12327.9741] on July 26, 2011 at 15:45:01:

In Reply to: Re: No benefit to aggressive blood sugar lowering? Archive. posted by Walt Stoll [93.9765] on July 26, 2011 at 15:20:33:

Hi Walt,

How is hypoglycemia more damaging to the body? What about mild hypoglycemia? I have had that for years, no matter what I do, have to eat frequently, lots of proteins and fats, but still have to eat frequently and used to have many many low blood sugar moments that triggered panic.


Go to First Post in this Thread

Follow Ups:



Re: No benefit to aggressive blood sugar lowering? Archive.

Posted by Sapphire [735.9683] on July 26, 2011 at 17:12:24:

In Reply to: Re: No benefit to aggressive blood sugar lowering? Archive. posted by Walt Stoll [93.9765] on July 26, 2011 at 15:20:33:

Dr. Stoll,

I thought it was the high blood sugar that causes the damage to the cardiovascular system, so it does seem like lowering the blood sugar would prevent the cardiovascular damage. If it's not the high blood sugar causing the damage, is it known what is?

Sapphire


Go to First Post in this Thread

Follow Ups:



Re: No benefit to aggressive blood sugar lowering? Archive.

Posted by samm [1003.7683] on July 26, 2011 at 18:22:14:

In Reply to: Re: No benefit to aggressive blood sugar lowering? Archive. posted by Walt Stoll [93.9765] on July 26, 2011 at 15:20:33:

what are the damages and risks of 'triggering hypoglycemia'?

My young son was diagnosed with type 1 around the time the DCCT was finishing and I asked his doctor if there were any risks to hypoglycemia, besides the risk of going TOO low. He told me , no, that was the only risk.

More recently, I've learned that hypoglycemia is related to OCD, which has become a problem for my son.
What other risks and damage from hypoglycemia, besides the obvious ones of passing out, coma, and death?


Go to First Post in this Thread

Follow Ups:



Re: No benefit to aggressive blood sugar lowering? Archive.

Posted by Walt Stoll [93.9765] on July 27, 2011 at 07:07:34:

In Reply to: Re: No benefit to aggressive blood sugar lowering? Archive. posted by Juli [12327.9741] on July 26, 2011 at 15:45:01:

Juli,

Are you giving yourself injectable insulin or taking hypoglycemic pills?

Walt


Go to First Post in this Thread

Follow Ups:



Re: No benefit to aggressive blood sugar lowering? Archive.

Posted by Walt Stoll [93.9765] on July 27, 2011 at 07:30:56:

In Reply to: Re: No benefit to aggressive blood sugar lowering? Archive. posted by Sapphire [735.9683] on July 26, 2011 at 17:12:24:

Sapphire,

It is embarrasing for a physician to have to admit that no one knows why the secondary and long term complications of diabetes happen. All we know is that they are not related to the level of sugar in the blood.

Walt


Go to First Post in this Thread

Follow Ups:



Re: No benefit to aggressive blood sugar lowering? Archive.

Posted by Walt Stoll [93.9765] on July 27, 2011 at 07:33:39:

In Reply to: Re: No benefit to aggressive blood sugar lowering? Archive. posted by samm [1003.7683] on July 26, 2011 at 18:22:14:

Thanks, samm.

I was not aware of the OCD relationship. I would like to see the research (replicated) indicating this.

Walt


Go to First Post in this Thread

Follow Ups:



Re: No benefit to aggressive blood sugar lowering?

Posted by craig [8177.9622] on July 27, 2011 at 10:27:23:

In Reply to: No benefit to aggressive blood sugar lowering? posted by Mike-S [10264.9791] on July 26, 2011 at 14:51:51:

Dr.Stoll, from what I've read and what little I know, is it possible the glucose lowering came AFTER the damage had been done?
I ask because of my understanding of how damaging glycation is to the organs .... excess free radicals,etc. Perhaps the "agressive lowering" just came too late? Since glycation increases with glucose levels, lowering those levels wouldn't reverse the damage already done??? Just a thought.


Go to First Post in this Thread

Follow Ups:



Re: No benefit to aggressive blood sugar lowering? Archive.

Posted by Sapphire [735.9683] on July 27, 2011 at 10:47:17:

In Reply to: Re: No benefit to aggressive blood sugar lowering? Archive. posted by Walt Stoll [93.9765] on July 27, 2011 at 07:30:56:

That's so fascinating, Dr. Stoll, there is so much we still don't know about the human body.


Go to First Post in this Thread

Follow Ups:



Re: No benefit to aggressive blood sugar lowering?

Posted by Walt Stoll [93.9765] on July 27, 2011 at 12:29:51:

In Reply to: Re: No benefit to aggressive blood sugar lowering? posted by craig [8177.9622] on July 27, 2011 at 10:27:23:

Thanks, Craig.

Sounds reasonable. Now, if you can get some specialists (credibility) to set up some research protocol--one that lasts at least 20 years, that is unlikely to produce any way to produce a way to make money from the results, perhaps you could prove it.

Let us know what you learn.

Walt


Go to First Post in this Thread

Follow Ups:



Re: No benefit to aggressive blood sugar lowering? Archive.

Posted by Juli [673.9741] on July 27, 2011 at 15:44:50:

In Reply to: Re: No benefit to aggressive blood sugar lowering? Archive. posted by Walt Stoll [93.9765] on July 27, 2011 at 07:07:34:

Neither, I just simply have hypoglycemia attacks, I do not have diabetes either.


Go to First Post in this Thread

Follow Ups:



Re: No benefit to aggressive blood sugar lowering? Archive.

Posted by Walt Stoll [93.9765] on July 27, 2011 at 16:03:23:

In Reply to: Re: No benefit to aggressive blood sugar lowering? Archive. posted by Juli [673.9741] on July 27, 2011 at 15:44:50:

Then, Juli.

Hypoglycemia is not a danger, or dangerous, then, for you! It is just a bother and a risk factor for future development of frank diabetes.

Hope this helps.

Walt


Go to First Post in this Thread

Follow Ups:



Re: No benefit to aggressive blood sugar lowering? Archive.

Posted by Sapphire [735.9683] on July 27, 2011 at 17:18:33:

In Reply to: Re: No benefit to aggressive blood sugar lowering? Archive. posted by samm [1003.7683] on July 26, 2011 at 18:22:14:

Samm...

"Brief or mild hypoglycemia produces no lasting effects on the brain, though it can temporarily alter brain responses to additional hypoglycemia. Prolonged, severe hypoglycemia can produce lasting damage of a wide range. This can include impairment of cognitive function, motor control, or even consciousness. The likelihood of permanent brain damage from any given instance of severe hypoglycemia is difficult to estimate, and depends on a multitude of factors such as age, recent blood and brain glucose experience, concurrent problems such as hypoxia, and availability of alternative fuels. It has been frequently found that those Type 1 diabetics found "dead in bed" in the morning after suspected severe hypoglycemia had some underlying coronary pathology that led to an induced fatal heart attack. Recently, several of these individuals found "dead in bed" were wearing Continuous Glucose Monitors, which provided a history of glucose levels prior to the fatal event. It has been found in several cases, that the fatal event was preceded by at least two hours of blood glucose levels under 40 mg/dl, possibly lower as the continuous glucose monitors are not accurate at levels below 40 mg/dl. The individuals failed to respond to the audible alarms produced by the continuous glucose monitor which may have been "alarming" for many hours prior to the fatal event. The vast majority of symptomatic hypoglycemic episodes result in no detectable permanent harm.[25]"



Go to First Post in this Thread

Follow Ups:



Re: No benefit to aggressive blood sugar lowering? Archive.

Posted by Juli [673.9741] on July 27, 2011 at 18:18:58:

In Reply to: Re: No benefit to aggressive blood sugar lowering? Archive. posted by Walt Stoll [93.9765] on July 27, 2011 at 16:03:23:

Thanks Walt, what causes benign hypoglycemia in otherwise healthy adults? Is it the liver? fast metabolism? stored stress? adrenals? or who knows? I eat perfectly, exercise and meditate, so that is the best I can do... My mother has a milder form and so does my daughter, but men just don't seem to have to eat as much as women, lucky you all are!


Go to First Post in this Thread

Follow Ups:



Re: No benefit to aggressive blood sugar lowering? Archive.

Posted by Walt Stoll [93.9765] on July 28, 2011 at 07:48:43:

In Reply to: Re: No benefit to aggressive blood sugar lowering? Archive. posted by Juli [673.9741] on July 27, 2011 at 18:18:58:

Juli,

Directly related to chronic bracing and storage of stress effect in the hypothnalamus. See (1)the automatic buffering system of muscle glycogen-->liver glycogen-->blood glucose. (2) Genetics.

Hoe long have you practiced certified effective SR at least twice a day? Perhaps you are one who needs it at least 3 times a day.

I would bet that, if you had a deep, total body, therapeutic massage, 3 times a week, for a few weeks in a row, that you would see an immediate improvement in your symptoms that would last at least a month or so.

Let us know what you learn and how you do.

Walt


Go to First Post in this Thread

Follow Ups:



Re: No benefit to aggressive blood sugar lowering?

Posted by Mike-S [10264.9791] on July 28, 2011 at 12:03:21:

In Reply to: No benefit to aggressive blood sugar lowering? posted by Mike-S [10264.9791] on July 26, 2011 at 14:51:51:

https://www.iqwig.de/index.1313.en.html

https://www.iqwig.de/download/A05-07_Executive_Summary_Blood_glucose_lowering_to_near-normal_levels.pdf



Go to First Post in this Thread

Follow Ups:



Re: No benefit to aggressive blood sugar lowering?

Posted by Mike-S [10264.9791] on July 28, 2011 at 12:06:02:

In Reply to: Re: No benefit to aggressive blood sugar lowering? posted by Mike-S [10264.9791] on July 28, 2011 at 12:03:21:

https://www.iqwig.de/index.1313.en.html

https://www.iqwig.de/download/A05-07_Executive_Summary_Blood_glucose_lowering_to_near-normal_levels.pdf


Mike-S



Go to First Post in this Thread

Follow Ups:



Re: No benefit to aggressive blood sugar lowering? Archive.

Posted by Juli [673.9741] on July 28, 2011 at 15:52:53:

In Reply to: Re: No benefit to aggressive blood sugar lowering? Archive. posted by Walt Stoll [93.9765] on July 28, 2011 at 07:48:43:

So, does that mean because the muscles are bracing, the blood glucose has to leave the blood and liver to go to the muscles to replace the loss caused by bracing???


Go to First Post in this Thread

Follow Ups:



Re: No benefit to aggressive blood sugar lowering? Archive.

Posted by Walt Stoll [93.9765] on July 28, 2011 at 18:03:07:

In Reply to: Re: No benefit to aggressive blood sugar lowering? Archive. posted by Juli [673.9741] on July 28, 2011 at 15:52:53:

No, Jodi.

The way it works is a tripartite backup system of survival (present in every normal person): when the glucose level gets too low it causes the release of adrenalin from the adrenals. This in turn releases muscle glycogen into the blood which turns into glucose immediately to maintain the appropriate level for function. When THAT is exausted the liver begins to release it's tertiary glycogen storage [the last gasp of survival].

Remember, the brain cannot use oxygen without glucose being present.

When the muscles are constantly bracing, the muscle glycogen is very low so the first line of defence is alredy compromised. So far, there is no way known to stimulate release of liver glycogen {the last gasp before death} so it behooves us to keep as high a muscle glycogen storage as we can. We cannot do this efficiently if we are bracing all the time.

Hope this helps.

Walt


Go to First Post in this Thread

Follow Ups:



Re: No benefit to aggressive blood sugar lowering? Archive.

Posted by Juli [673.9741] on July 28, 2011 at 19:14:32:

In Reply to: Re: No benefit to aggressive blood sugar lowering? Archive. posted by Walt Stoll [93.9765] on July 28, 2011 at 18:03:07:

That explains it perfectly, you are sooo wonderful, Dr. Stoll, you have taught me so much over the years, and all for free!!! God bless you!


Go to First Post in this Thread

Follow Ups:



Re: No benefit to aggressive blood sugar lowering? Archive.

Posted by AT [8783.9772] on July 28, 2011 at 20:37:41:

In Reply to: Re: No benefit to aggressive blood sugar lowering? Archive. posted by Walt Stoll [93.9765] on July 28, 2011 at 18:03:07:

Walt, I thought that caffeine caused a release of glucose from the liver.


Go to First Post in this Thread

Follow Ups:



Re: No benefit to aggressive blood sugar lowering? Archive.

Posted by samm [1003.7683] on July 29, 2011 at 08:32:27:

In Reply to: Re: No benefit to aggressive blood sugar lowering? Archive. posted by Walt Stoll [93.9765] on July 27, 2011 at 07:33:39:

it was in a book on OCD. They believe that strep throat can be the initial problem and then hypoglycemia .

Richard Bernstein MD, in his book , Diabetes Solution, attributes his lack of complications from diabetes over 50 years (type 1, diagnosed at age 12) to his aggressive blood sugar control andlow carb diet. I learned a few good things fromhis book (like avoiding long acting insulin) but found him a little obsessive about staying at 90 (using glucose tabs whenever one gets below that). I believe in real food instead of glucose tabs and don't believe any meter is accurate enough to be making minute adjustments to 'stay' at 90.

One ADA book on diabetes I read said virtually every amputation in a person with diabetes was in smokers, so that's one big cause of complications.

But you didn't answer my question- what ARE the specific problems you see associated with the triggering of hypogycemia?


Go to First Post in this Thread

Follow Ups:



Re: No benefit to aggressive blood sugar lowering? Archive.

Posted by Walt Stoll [93.9765] on July 29, 2011 at 08:36:58:

In Reply to: Re: No benefit to aggressive blood sugar lowering? Archive. posted by Juli [673.9741] on July 28, 2011 at 19:14:32:

Thanks, Juli.

Walt


Go to First Post in this Thread

Follow Ups:



Re: No benefit to aggressive blood sugar lowering? Archive.

Posted by Walt Stoll [93.9765] on July 29, 2011 at 08:39:55:

In Reply to: Re: No benefit to aggressive blood sugar lowering? Archive. posted by AT [8783.9772] on July 28, 2011 at 20:37:41:

Yeah, AT, but not much.

Walt


Go to First Post in this Thread

Follow Ups:



Re: No benefit to aggressive blood sugar lowering? Archive.

Posted by Walt Stoll [93.9765] on July 29, 2011 at 08:53:39:

In Reply to: Re: No benefit to aggressive blood sugar lowering? Archive. posted by samm [1003.7683] on July 29, 2011 at 08:32:27:

Samm,

Type I diabetes is a very different condition than type II.

Walt


Go to First Post in this Thread

Follow Ups:



?? for MikeS

Posted by Jayne [10093.9789] on July 29, 2011 at 11:03:00:

In Reply to: No benefit to aggressive blood sugar lowering? posted by Mike-S [10264.9791] on July 26, 2011 at 14:51:51:

do you take D3?



Go to First Post in this Thread

Follow Ups:



Re: No benefit to aggressive blood sugar lowering? Archive.

Posted by samm [1003.7683] on July 29, 2011 at 14:12:10:

In Reply to: Re: No benefit to aggressive blood sugar lowering? Archive. posted by Walt Stoll [93.9765] on July 29, 2011 at 08:53:39:

that I know, but Bernstein treats both kinds in his clinic in NY.
Bernstein has an interesting background. He grew up to be an engineer and married a doctor. When glucose meters were invented, they apparently were intended to help ERs tell the difference between a drunk and a hypoglycemic, so the machines were only available to doctors and hospitals. Bernstein's wife bought him a meter and he took an engineer's approach to diabetes and came up with a lot of ideas, after experimenting. BUT, he couldn't get his ideas published, because he had no medical background, SO, at age 45, the man went to medical school, became a doctor, and started treating diabetes and publishing his ideas.


Go to First Post in this Thread

Follow Ups:



Re: ?? for MikeS

Posted by Mike-S [10264.9791] on July 29, 2011 at 15:59:01:

In Reply to: ?? for MikeS posted by Jayne [10093.9789] on July 29, 2011 at 11:03:00:

Yes I do take vitamin D3 - twice a day 2000iu each time. Mike-S


Go to First Post in this Thread

Follow Ups:



Re: No benefit to aggressive blood sugar lowering? Archive.

Posted by Walt Stoll [93.9765] on July 29, 2011 at 16:55:24:

In Reply to: Re: No benefit to aggressive blood sugar lowering? Archive. posted by samm [1003.7683] on July 29, 2011 at 14:12:10:

Thanks, samm.

I am very familiar with this symdrome. It is VERY difficult for physicians, and non-physicians, to accept that there seems to be no relationship between levels of glucose in the blood and the secondary complications of "diabetes".

Walt


Go to First Post in this Thread

Follow Ups:



Re: No benefit to aggressive blood sugar lowering? Archive.

Posted by Ron [3468.9604] on August 15, 2011 at 10:13:55:

In Reply to: Re: No benefit to aggressive blood sugar lowering? Archive. posted by Sapphire [735.9683] on July 26, 2011 at 17:12:24:

Hi Sapphire,

From what Walt has explained, I see a connection between Adrenalin depletion and gradual Cardio-Vascular
impairment.

This string is quite eerie and topical,
considering what happened to Walt so soon afterward.

Dealing with stress, bracing and the fight-or-flight response was proof that Walt was doing something right.





Go to First Post in this Thread

Follow Ups:



[ Diabetes Archive ]
[ Main Archives Page ] [ Glossary/Index ]
[ FAQ ] [ Recommended Books ] [ Bulletin Board ]
   Search this site!