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On the way to work, I heard an interview on the radio regarding beef. If you can stand it, (I couldn't read the Dying Piece by Piece Article.) go to this site and take a look at what you are really eating:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/nation/specials/food/
There is a special on PBS tonight at 9pm called Modern Meat. Go to this link to read about it.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/press/2017i.html
It's really disgusting. If you eat hamburger, you could be eating hundreds of cows in one hamburger, along with the bacteria from the feces of all those cows.
Did you know that we are also importing beef from other countries? One of the fast food chains, I think McDonalds, is going to start using foreign beef in their hamburgers – not that any of us here eat that anyway. Bye, Bye beef for me.
In Reply to: Modern Meat posted by Donna E. on April 18, 2002 at 12:28:40:
These fears seem completely irrational to me.
What's wrong with eating a hamburger made of meat of different cows?
The bacteria you are talking about is the same bacteria you have on and in you.
And the beef McDonalds is going to start using soon is said to beef from New Zealand, and it's said to be grass-fed, the good kind.
I never believed that good decisions could be made under the influence (of emotions).
In Reply to: Re: Modern Meat posted by R. on April 18, 2002 at 12:52:57:
Did you even read the articles? Even the FDA is concerned and the AMA is getting involved. My question is what's wrong with you? These facts go way beyond emotions.
Tell that bacteria story to the people who have lost loved ones due to eating it.
In Reply to: Modern Meat posted by Donna E. on April 18, 2002 at 12:28:40:
I had to make a decision back in 98, I had been thinking about raising my own meat but had not made a decision yet, what helped me was The local supermarket where I used to buy my meat recalled all the hamburger they sold that week because ther was a bacteria in it. I did not buy any that week so I was ok but that made my decison for me. My family could do better than that. My sister raises her cattle I decided to raise rabbits and ducks we swap so we have some of each.
Charity
In Reply to: Re: Modern Meat posted by Donna E. on April 18, 2002 at 12:59:48:
No, I didn't have time to read the articles. I was replying to YOUR statements. Were they irrelevant? I'd appreciate it if you made an attempt to be more polite here.
Policies of FDA and AMA are based on Pasteur's theory that microbes cause disease. I don't agree with that theory, at least not completely. For more of what I am talking about, read
In Reply to: Re: Modern Meat posted by R. on April 18, 2002 at 13:54:37:
Sorry, I was a little rude. I read your article and feel that it is talking about something totally different than what is happening with the beef/cattle industry and how meat is being produced and how and why deadly pathogens (resistant pathogens at that) are contaminating our food supply.
I don't have time to go into detail, read the articles if you can, it will bring a better understanding to what I said.
Grass fed, this fed or that fed - bottom line, were they given antibiotics or hormones and where and how were they slaughtered has a lot to do with the quality and safety of the meat.
Thanks for discussing this with me. I was just so freaked out by the radio program. I work at an educational institution and have been checking books out of the library on modern food supply and it's scaring me a little bit. Did you know that they even use antibiotics in raising fruits and vegetables and that residue from this is in that food as well? I have a lot more to research to do, but for now I feel like the only way to get truly safe and nutritious food is to grow it yourself - even the animal products.
In Reply to: Re: Modern Meat posted by Donna E. on April 18, 2002 at 14:19:11:
Apology accepted.
Yes, the article I mentioned doesn't talk about cows. The reason I brought up this issue is to provide food for thought about what causes disease. I don't think "microbe chasing" is the right direction. Since FDA and AMA believe in the Pasteure's germ theory of disease, a direction in which they will go to try to rectify the situation is very likely irradiation of food to kill germs. Lawmaking work in this area is being done. And I don't want my food irradiated. If you compute percentage of people who get sick from food, it will be small. And these people are mostly those with weak immune systems. As a matter of fact, I've heard an interview with a microbiologist, and he said that a healthy individual can eat feces by a spoon and not even get ill. Do you know that animals sometimes eat feces? Are you aware of animals washing their preys and taking extra precaution to stay away from the prey's feces. I don't think so. Microbes are not as dangerous as most of us have been brought up to believe.
As far as antibiotics or hormones in food, they should stop that, but I doubt they will do that.
I didn't know they use antibiotics in raising fruits and vegetables? Where did you get this information? Any particular brands? Can they be identified?
I agree that growing your own food is best. However, this doesn't suit everyone, and there are places where you can buy plant and animal based food that is of an acceptable quality: organic, pastured (if animal based), etc.
In Reply to: Modern Meat posted by Donna E. on April 18, 2002 at 12:28:40:
Thanks Donna,
I have been seeing the same stories on the news. We want to start raising our own beef ourselves. It was apolling to read about the treatment of the cows at the slaughter
houses.
Barb
In Reply to: Re: Modern Meat posted by R. on April 18, 2002 at 17:16:25:
Thanks.
I really do buy the microbe theory. I'm sick with one - Candida. History tells the best story for me. Ignaz Semmelweis was persecuted for his contention that physicians should wash their hands before doing any procedures on patients. When Joseph Lister (the "pioneer" of antisceptic treatment) actually saw the microbes in a microscope and proved that they exist, was Semmelweis's work acknowledged. Would you want a doctor performing an exam or procedure on you who had just dipped his hands in cattle feces or any other feces for that matter? Would you really eat something with a spoonfull of feces on it? That's what you're likely to get with your meat. Cooking takes care of killing most of the bacteria, but there are the unfortunate people who have gotten sick and worse who have died from undercooked meat. I think one death from this is too many, let alone a small percentage of the population - that's a lot of people.
As far as the fruits and vegetables, I found that in a publication called "The effects on human health of subtherapeutic use of antimicrobials in animal feeds / Committee to Study the Human Health Effects of Subtherapeutic Antibiotic Use in Animal Feeds, Division of Medical Sciences, Assembly of Life Sciences, National Research Council"
Even though it says animal feeds in the title, one paper in this publication talks about use of it in pears and other fruits. I still have a lot to research and these are old papers, but I have heard (I work for an educationl institution that has an agricultural program.) that antibiotics are used on plants as a pesticide to keep them from getting destructive bacterial diseases that can destroy crops.
And, by the way, they are already irradiating food and have been since 1997 when it was approved by the FDA. I don't think it's a widespread practice and is done mostly on chicken. But, in 1999, FDA regulations state that labeling is supposed to be put on any irradiated products. The "label" is a picture of two green leaves - not words saying that the product is irradiated.
Just food for thought and my point of view. Thanks again for the discussion.
In Reply to: Re: Modern Meat posted by Donna E. on April 18, 2002 at 14:19:11:
The theory itself is very compelling, but the proof is in the testing.
Common sense says that meat is "dirty" and filled with all kinds of unwholesome additives
There are several problems with what you posted, the first of which was the source of the
A. Who owns that radio station.
B. The owner controls what goes out on the airwaves.
C. Who has something to gain by that "bulletin" being broadcast.
D. Is anyone going to critically evaluate that bulletin or are they just going to "knee jerk" respond to it?
The second thing to consider is the nature of reality itself.
So "tainted meat" for example has been given power because you and several other million
You aren't going to think twice about it, and with good intent, are going to spread
And no, I'm not making this more difficult than it already is. A Paradigm Shift is in order
It is much easier to get up in arms about the latest so-called threat, then to evaluate
In Reply to: Modern Meat posted by Donna E. on April 18, 2002 at 12:28:40:
US Children Getting Majority of Antibiotics from McDonald's Meat
In Reply to: Re: Modern Meat & Emotional Decisions posted by Gregory on April 18, 2002 at 18:45:12:
Hi Greg,
If you read my original post, I wasn't trying to impose any belief on anybody. I just gave references for people to look up the information for themselves. This is an information board, where we all share our point of views, even you, and I respect your view - I just don't agree. No big deal.
The radio interview was done by the guy who is either hosting or helped produce the program that will be shown tonight on PBS. I don't know what the program will show all together, it could have information that goes your way as well.
After I heard this, I did a little research to dig deeper into this issue - I like to have lots of information before I come to a conclusion.
I did not come across any information in my researching that says the way we slaughter animals and the way we produce our meat products is safe. Even the government agencies agree, that's why they passed laws that allow irradiation.
This was not an emotional response on my part, I educated myself before I posted. I had already been doing some research in that area.
Do you know what goes into raising beef a mass production environment? Do you know how they are slaughtered in a mass production environment?
As far as the meat being tainted because millions of people believe it is tainted and therefore make it so is not in my reality - you're right. Did you read about the people that got sick and the little girl that died from a sizzler? The little girl didn't eat meat. She ate watermelon that had been exposed to the tainted meat - I don't think she was making this reality by the belief that it was contaminated, and neither were her parents.
And, what about the multitudes of people who don't even know or think about this? How many of those people at sizzler do you think thought this way? Probably none, or they wouldn't have been there eating the beef.
In order to use critical thinking, you have to have information and be educated. I'll bet that you didn't even check out any of the information that I posted so that you could refute anything that I have said. I don't see any postings from you showing me where to look to see if our meat is safe.
I am a very spiritual person and definitely believe that our thoughts and beliefs make our reality. But, everybody's thoughts and beliefs affect everyone else. And, there are certain laws that God put into place not to be violated. For instance, no matter how much I believe that if I jump off of a building that I will float, it's not going to happen without help from something I have created physically.
One last thing. Critical thinking is what brought me to Dr. Stoll - not believing everything that EVERY SINGLE doctor told me. I searched outside the realm and found my place here.
Thanks for the thoughts.
In Reply to: No wait, Mickey D's is good for you, read this! posted by joker on April 18, 2002 at 19:07:49:
nmi
In Reply to: Modern Meat posted by Donna E. on April 18, 2002 at 12:28:40:
That is so GROSS!!! Turned my stomach! ;-(
In Reply to: to Donna - : Modern Meat posted by Barb on April 18, 2002 at 17:17:46:
Barb, maybe you'll be able to sell good meat to us here at reasonable prices.
Why don't you join Weston Price Foundation? And native-nutrition yahoo group.
In Reply to: Re: Modern Meat posted by R. on April 18, 2002 at 13:54:37:
These are very interesting theories, R. A year ago I had no clue of anything but germ theory (and a sort of corollary "be healthy so the germs won't getcha"). But I do wish that writer had left off the bit about the shape-shifting. It sort of cuts into his credibility. While it doesn't bother me (I shrug off things I don't understand) - as background material for the theory I would not refer a skeptic to that link!
In Reply to: Re: Modern Meat posted by R. on April 18, 2002 at 13:54:37:
R.
Maybe you are the one who needs to be more polite here. Your manner comes across obtrusive and brash at times. Time to take a look at yourself and stop pointing the finger at others on the board.
In Reply to: Re: Modern Meat posted by R. on April 18, 2002 at 17:16:25:
I don't eat ground meat, unless I grind it myself and eat it right away. Has not so much to do with possible bacteria as with the oxidation. When meat is ground, it increases the surface area x 100,000 or some huge amount, and then it sits around oxidizing until you eat it. I don't want it oxidizing until it's in my digestive tract!
I dunno though.... some raw foodists will sometimes purposely eat certain kinds of old meat, for various reasons. Gotta admit this is well outside my comfort zone. :-)
In Reply to: Modern Meat posted by Donna E. on April 18, 2002 at 12:28:40:
What the disapointment!
So McDonald is not going to use any more red worm meat to make their famous burgers?
Look like I will have to find another red worm burger supplier.
Do we have to change to Kanguru burgers at Burger King now?
In Reply to: Re: Modern Meat posted by R. on April 18, 2002 at 13:54:37:
"Policies of FDA and AMA ..." ... Politics and .... protection ..... ?"
FDA Federaly Distributed Adversaries?
In Reply to: I always like them rare! posted by Disapointed! on April 18, 2002 at 21:12:05:
Dont knock Kanguru burgers till you try them! ;-)
In Reply to: Re: to Donna - : Modern Meat posted by R. on April 18, 2002 at 20:24:24:
What a thought, I have been looking for a home business.
In Reply to: I always like them rare! posted by Disapointed! on April 18, 2002 at 21:12:05:
I didn't find the red worm meat. Sounds like what goes
I am not keen on eating ground meat, even if I had it
VF
In Reply to: Re: Modern Meat & Emotional Decisions posted by Donna E. on April 18, 2002 at 19:15:25:
I read Greg's post and laughed so hard I almost fell of my seat. I loved your response. This guy I think loves to hear himself talk sometimes. I was in a discussion about vegetarian lifestyles and I don't think he ever really read what I posted he picked up a few words and then made a very pretty response back that had nothing to do with what I had said.
You explained how you felt when you heard this radio station and then you researched it. So maybe emotion guided you to research the topic. More power to emotion then! Something had to make it important enough to research it. And by the way thanks for the information.
I loved your remark on people thinking themselves sick by thinking they are eating tainted meat! I couldn't believe he really said that you were making yourself sick. That's just way to funny. Actually sad.
I'm not trying to jump on the Greg guy I've read alot of his post and alot of the time he has some very good points. But he'll never admit that sometimes he is way off base and those posts I enjoy also.
a thought
In Reply to: To R - - : Modern Meat posted by Barb on April 18, 2002 at 22:51:08:
I don't know, but you can ask those who do. That yahoo group is a good place for exchanging ideas.
In Reply to: Re: Modern Meat posted by Jan on April 18, 2002 at 20:26:55:
I agree.
Did you also read articles linked to in that article?
In Reply to: Re: Modern Meat posted by Bored Observer on April 18, 2002 at 20:31:46:
Too vague. Be more specific.
In Reply to: Modern Meat posted by Donna E. on April 18, 2002 at 12:28:40:
Thanks, Donne.
Perhaps the internet will save us from this craziness?!!
Hope springs eternal.
Survival of the fittest. Those who refuse to learn will die a horrible death, young in life, and those who care to learn will survive.
Namaste`
Walt
In Reply to: Ground meat and fat are oxidized, that's why I'd rather not eat them posted by Jan on April 18, 2002 at 20:33:47:
I've been wanted to buy a meat grinder. Do you know where I can get an electric one for a reasonable price?
I didn't think about the oxidation.
Not only raw foodists eat old meat, but animal predators too. I've read of tigers or some other predators that would let their prey "hang in there" before they eat it. Also, Eskimo's traditional way of eatng fish is to first let it rot. Also, Kimchi (sp?) is a mix of rotted fish and something else, if I am not mistaken. It's a Korean thing.
In Reply to: Re: Modern Meat & Emotional Decisions posted by Donna E. on April 18, 2002 at 19:15:25:
Start with de-stressing your body. I don't see that listening to troubling news reports
It seems not.
I did ask you to consider who might have a vested interest in this "news report" which you
And then there are those video links you so helpfully provided. A few choice links concerning television & video are in order.
Link #1. A Developmental Perspective on the Effects of Television Viewing
Link #2. Television Violence: A Review on the Effects of Telvison of Children of Different Ages.
Link #3. Television Addiction Is No Mere Metaphor
I have considered the points you made. I ask you in good faith to consider mine.
In Reply to: Well said Donna!!! posted by a thought on April 19, 2002 at 09:12:45:
A thought, or maybe thoughtless is more accurate.
You just didn't get it. The idea here is that you create you world. People got along fine
When the pills are gone, what? Maybe rely on the foods that the vitamins came from? How's that
As for your debate, frankly you are either feebleminded or you have a learning disablity for me
Even you.
WITL,
In Reply to: Re: Modern Meat posted by R. on April 19, 2002 at 13:10:56:
Yes. Utterly fascinating. And I'm left with saying "it makes huge intuitive sense to me." This of course, is not really good enough.
I first was introduced to this controversy last year when inadvertently "refereeing" in an huge argument between two people it seemed like were going to kill each other! One was a pro-vaccinationist .... He was the far more hysterical of the two... It was quite interesting to behold.
I never cease to be astonished at the vehemence against ideas. IDEAS. Ideas that don't hurt anyone but simply threaten entrenched "world views."
In Reply to: Re: Ground meat and fat are oxidized, that's why I'd rather not eat them posted by R. on April 19, 2002 at 13:18:40:
Are you sure you need motorized? A hand grinder is so much cheaper and works fine if you're not running a restaurant. (at least in my opinion!)
In Reply to: Re: Modern Meat posted by Jan on April 20, 2002 at 19:36:35:
Jan, if you have more info on this topic, please share it with me. I find myself somewhere between the two theories.
In Reply to: Re: Meat grinders posted by Jan on April 20, 2002 at 19:43:05:
Oh, great! Thanks for the links.
I know that a hand grinder would be cheaper, but none of my tables have sufficient edges to allow me to attach one of these grinders.
Also, a hand grinder I saw on a site you referred me to is only about $50 cheaper. While, it's not nothing, I think a motorized would save me time grinding raw meat (it's kind of tough), and I want to minimize time spent on food preparation.
In Reply to: Re: Modern Meat posted by Donna E. on April 18, 2002 at 18:00:52:
Interesting discussion. I certainly wouldn' eat something that had feces in it, if I could help it, because my 'yack' reflex is too strong. Hamburgers have never appealed to me anyway.
I just remembered reading for couple of years ago a report on a treatment of Crohn's syndrome patient by feeding her a feces solution (from a healthy human bowel, that is) through the nose.... I remember the picture in the local newspaper (in Norway) that disgusted a lot of people, but the therapy worked, it was reported. The person needed a healthy bacteria flora, and that's how it was done. Unfortunately I don't have any links on the therapy and the reasoning behind it. Maybe someone here will know more.
That said, I still wouldn't eat anything that was potentially contaminated. The amount of chemicals that end up in our food scares me, as I believe there is a critical line for how much we can tolerate. It is difficult to know what we eat nowadays, and should be a cause for concern.
Sonja
In Reply to: Or maybe you just didn't get it. A thought for you. posted by Gregory on April 20, 2002 at 15:23:45:
Well you must be super smart or something because us little simple people just can't follow along. It must be lonely at the top always breaking down what you are thinking to such simple terms for us simple people. Of course I've always thought that if you want to be understood you speak to be understood.
If you read back on some of the post I'm not the only one not getting what you are saying. Or believe that you are just out to be the preachy man. Of course I'm always amazed at the number of smart people who just can't seem to get the simple things. Maybe because you always think you are so smart you never think it could be so simple.
Donna heard something that caused her to want to research it. She did and decided to share it with other people just as an FYI. Now people can debate it and bring forth other ideas ON THE SUBJECT. Your BS doesn't put forth any value to the debate. You picked up on a comment on emotion. Then to try and make it stick you put in a bunch of BS to make it sound really good. Well sorry I didn't buy it. I read your post and found it funny because of all the extra BS in it. Oh yes I'm sure there are some very serious conditions where people make themselves sick thinking there are germs in all the food. There is a word for that but I'm so stupid I just can't think of it.
Come on Greg Old boy, you don't get it. Way not bring some of the high smarts of yours into the discussion about what Donna was saying? How about something to show the information wrong? The crap about her being emotional and stressful causing her to make herself sick over the meat is bull. And I'm not the only one who thought so!!! She didn't sound over emotional to me. And even if she was and the information was wrong well you haven't proven a thing against that information.
As for your response to mine well again thoughtless here just don't get it. I must be sooo stupid. I think your discussion has some merit to it. If we were discussing that condition but we are not.
a thought who is just thoughtless......
PS Thanks for the info on the vitamins I'm not sure why you put in all that info but I did understand it I just didn't think it had anything to do with the response I posted that you were responding to.
In Reply to: Blah Blah Blah You Don't get it!! posted by a thought on April 21, 2002 at 15:09:09:
if you would check the archives, under "philosophy" you would see not only other instances
What that means is that she is not going to accept anything that will accept her view of what is
But I don't suppose you believe that either. Perhaps it's too complex to understand.
Lightwalking,
In Reply to: us little simple people just can't follow along. too bad. how sad. posted by Gregory on April 21, 2002 at 15:34:10:
"don't confuse me with the facts." -- I've heard that phrase before but never thought about it. Now it seems so funny!
In Reply to: Blah Blah Blah You Don't get it!! posted by a thought on April 21, 2002 at 15:09:09:
"And even if she was and the information was wrong well you haven't proven a thing against that information."
The information (cruelty, antibiotics, artificial hormones, etc.) talked about in the articles is probably is true. However, what Donna's message came down to, close to the end of it, is bacteria in meat. There's much evidence that microbes morph into different forms based on the environment they are in. Candida is one of them. It's known to always exist in us, and until certain time, it is thought of as harmless and actually, useful (it's said to remove some toxins). But when the environment changes (due to consumption of refined foods, chronic stress, taking antibiotics, and what not), candida morphs into something else that is now harmful. So what is primary cause for disease here, microbes or terrain?
As far as Donna's post being very emotional is concerned, the following phrases of hers hint to that:
"If you can stand it, (I couldn't read the Dying Piece by Piece Article.) go to this site and..."
I am not discounting all that information. Cruelty should be dealt with. And I am not fond of eating feces myself. However, as I said before, FDA and AMA's solution to this will be irradiation of meat to make it "safer" because so many people believe so much into microbes being a primary cause of disease. And I don't want grocery stores to gradually switch to carrying only irradiated meat. This can easily happen as it happened to raw milk. It used to be raw milk sold in the US, but now it's pretty much only pasteurized.
There's no reason to stop eating beef. Just buy it somewhere else. There are good places to get good beef (even grass-fed and maybe even organic) at reasonable prices. But if you can grow it yourself, more power to you! If you can share it with others, even more power to you!
In Reply to: Want more info posted by R. on April 20, 2002 at 21:37:16:
Wish I did have more info....
Beyond hundreds of links to anti-vaccination sites (which you probably already have) - I haven't much original of my own that's worth a dialog on this subject. Haven't digested those materials too well .... I have tried and become overwhelmed.
The argument in question was about polio. The 'anti-vaccination' guy tried to argue that because some of the official statistics on polio vaccination success were manipulated by reclassification of disease and redefining of the criteria for the disease - this, therefore, is but the tip of the iceberg of doubt - until the data is examined better. OK, we KNOW this happens in medicine - statistics are played with so as to produce a desired perception. But to THAT great an extent?
Then he points to the controversies over the microbe theories of disease. OK, very interesting indeed... Now the pro-vaccination guy says b.s., the parting of the ways with Pasteur was an "80-year old medical controversy that was discredited even its own day" and that d'oh, of course we need better living conditions and a good "terrain" and of course this is a no-brainer. (lip service without really understanding)
Like you, I am in the middle on this. Vaccinations were expedient in wiping out disease even if they weren't the ONLY factor. (assume you agree?) But are they the best way, NOW? Are not lots of kids having problems with them? Should it be mandatory...big question. The main reading I did about the problems was a series of articles in the Townsend Letter for Doctors.... (Walt says, here in the archives, that he put a lot of his own resources into these questions and came up ambiguous. I think that is quite telling....)
It seems clear that the vaccination question is not as simple as people would like it to be. I do have a problem with any medicine that can also create disease. (which happens with vaccines). It is not that we need better, safer vaccines. Our whole paradigm of disease is seriously skewed...
But I'm also amazed that people who are anti-vaccine seem unwilling to reconcile their worthy idealism with the fact that vaccines HAVE worked as a stopgap, like it or not. Does not mean it is the BEST way. To create an ideal world, we need pratical steps get there from here. We don't simply stop vaccines cold. (do we?)
Anyway, MY role in that argument was just trying to get them to listen to each other better, and keep my head above water.
Well, I hope this was a little more useful than an "I don't know." ...
In Reply to: To R. - re vaccines, wish I did have more info.... posted by Jan on April 21, 2002 at 18:09:24:
Well, the only thing I am sure of is that vaccines must not be mandatory. Whether they work or not, I want to have freedom of choice, and I want the same for my kids (whenever I have them). This also applies to irradiation, being able to buy raw milk, etc.
As far as vaccines being a factor in wiping out disease... I am not sure. Talking about a helping factor here... After having looked at these disease decline graphs, I really doubt vaccines helped. Of course, this is assuming that this data is correct. Do we ever know? :)
Some sources:
- http://www.whale.to/a/lanka.html -- this one requires a very open mind to even consider. I started reading it and will finish it later.
In Reply to: Blah Blah Blah You Don't get it!! posted by a thought on April 21, 2002 at 15:09:09:
I had been a vegetarian for many,many years. My health and body suffered, but I was too ignorant of what I was doing to it, or just really didnt want to know that it may have been caused from no meat, until I found this board.
I was very emotional in my views when it came to meat. The sheer cruelty of it all upset me, plus the supposed negative health effects from it that were being touted around at the time. I was willing to put my health on the line to avoid consuming meat, and in essence, that is exactly what I did. OH, well, youlive and learn. ;-)
Many years later I tried to re-introduce it into my diet. Thinking it would help my health, but I still had a strong guilt reaction about eating the meat and it passing through my lips. Guess what, big surprise, I got a bad reaction. Not thinking it could be due to my emotions and thinking. My thinking was, see, its not good for me after all. I tried it a second time thinking maybe it was something other than the meat , got same reaction again. Still hadnt changed my negative, emotional views on meat. Felt like an ogre for eating it at the time. Strange, I know!
After doing some more research, asking questions here, probably too many questions, bugging many board members,R. HY, Gregory, etc. I took the plunge, but it was different. I no longer had my guilt trip about consuming meat. I totally changed my thinking and thus it changed my reality. My body responded positiviely to the meat. There was no negative reaction this time. My health improved so much just from including meat back into my diet.
Almost Two months on, My health is still improving. I am very thankful for it, even though at times, I wonder why I just didnt connect the two together before. My lack of meat and health decline. Of course, I only eat organic, grass fed meat. And no problems, health continues to get better and better.
Some more food for thought......
In Reply to: us little simple people just can't follow along. too bad. how sad. posted by Gregory on April 21, 2002 at 15:34:10:
Well I liked the response from Sensual very honest and I can understand. I don't think reacting with emotion is always bad sometimes it is. I know from experiance myself that if you fly off the handle a little later reason steps in. I don't think Donna was flying of the handle because of some of the other things she said. Raising your own beef or buying organic beef is more healthy. Grass-fed beef is more healthy. Whether you choose to eat grass-fed etc...because of a fear of commerical processing is still a more healthy way to eat.
She did say bye bye beef but she also said she was going to raise her own and that she and her sister swap home grown meat. It's still a better idea even R said so in his post that organic and grass-fed is best.
Sensual and R made posts that were not insulting they made good points. I know my post to Donna regarding Gregs wasn't so nice I won't deny that I was making a point that I still believe which is I think he was way off base. I know you can make yourself sick if you think on it hard enough but Donna wasn't going to stop eating meat just commerically processed meat and that is a better healthy way to eat meat. So I don't think she was being overly emotional and flying off the handle.
However we all have our own points of view. It's a shame Greg can never see anothers point of view that's probably my biggest "beef" with the guy. It's his way or you're stupid don't get it etc..... And shame on you if you don't get what he is saying!!
Greg you are quick to insult, I don't like people who look down their nose like you do. If you would be honest with yourself you would admit you could communicate in a more open way. Sensual and R are proof that you can make your point without insulting or belittling the other person. I've said this before to you and you just don't get it.
So to bad so sad for you, some of the best ideas I heard of came from people I judged stupid or didn't get it to quickly.
a thought
In Reply to: Thanks for responses Sensual & R Greg to bad so sad posted by a thought on April 22, 2002 at 09:52:00:
Ask me no questions, I give you no answers. That way I won't step on your toes.
Lightwalking,
In Reply to: Tell you what: 'thought..." posted by Gregory on April 22, 2002 at 10:14:10:
Sounds fine to me, it's a shame I do understand alot of your posts and they are usually very good with lots of ideas. It's just the ones I question that seem to be the problem with the insults. To bad everyone can learn something.
While you are lightwalking try being a little nice to those you judge stupid. You catch more flies with honey....
a thought
In Reply to: Tell you what: 'thought..." posted by Gregory on April 22, 2002 at 10:14:10:
Can't We All Just Get
In Reply to: I believe you missed my point Donna. posted by Gregory on April 19, 2002 at 21:25:45:
I really do understand what you are saying, Gregory. I was raised in a church called Metaphysical Fellowship in Oregon. I know all about the belief system that you are talking about. I've been through all kinds of meditations, healings, out of body experiences, etc. These people and my mother told me all through my childhood that my beliefs were making me sick. The thing is I have been sick from the time I can remember. The doctors started shoving antibiotics down my throat from the time I was 9 months old from a cold I developed (I must have developed a faulty belief system from then.) I was overdosed on Tetracycline - something they don't give to children anymore because of how damaging it is to growing parts of the body. Well, I'm one of the unfortunate victims who were damaged. And, if it weren't for this training in meditation, prayer to God, and God wanting me to be on this Earth at this time for some reason, I probably wouldn't be alive today. I almost bled to death on the operating table when I was 2 having my tonsils removed by a butcher and then I almost died when I was 14 from a horrible bacterial infection. My mom let it go for two weeks before I received medical care - it took me a long, long time to recover from that one. They had to carry me into the hospital because I couldn’t walk anymore. I prayed, I wished, I begged for healing. People from the “church” came to my house to give me healings – I “believed” I would get better, but I didn’t until I was finally given the medical care that I truly needed.
I know this is a long post and if you don’t address anything in here that I bring up, I would really appreciate it if you could explain the little babies who die from this tainted beef or any other type of "contaminated" substance? How do their beliefs tie into your theory?
How did that unsuspecting three-year-old die from eating watermelon that had been splashed with blood from tainted meat? Even her parents didn’t suspect anything. How did her beliefs kill her or her parent’s beliefs? How do little babies die of bacterial meningitis, the flu and other horrible diseases?
And what about the people who are not as enlightened as you? How are they protected? What if they never have the good fortune to meet someone as enlightened as you that can show them the error of their belief system? I am not being sarcastic here - I mean it. Why would God only give a few the insight and wisdom needed to lead a healthy, wonderful life?
The link that you provided that rambled on and on about the "particular electrical field of your human biological machine", etc, etc, blah, blah. Who is that guy? E.J. Gold? Isn't he a Sci-Fi writer and a developer of computer games? He reminds me of L. Ron Hubbard. Very obtuse and not very credible to me.
Further, if I weren’t interested or open to what you were saying, I wouldn't even respond to you. I am very interested and I am considering what you have to say, or I wouldn't have visited the links you provided. I just wish you would be a little less esoteric about what you have to say. That really isn't necessary and looks to me like a way to avoid directly answering the hard questions.
Thank you to "A thought", who is absolutely right, "God" didn't put us all on Earth together - some with a knowledge that is so much above everybody else and so mysterious that the majority of humanity can't get it and the rest of us little stupid, unenlightened people just have to plod through life with our faulty belief systems killing us and making us sick.
In Reply to: Re: I believe you missed my point Donna. posted by Donna E. on April 22, 2002 at 12:41:07:
Before we go on, I'd like to bring out Exhibit A. The Game Of God wherein you will find the True Nature of God.
I read it cover to cover. It is quite an eye-opener.
So to answer some of your questions, such as: How did that unsuspecting three-year-old die from eating watermelon that had been splashed with blood from tainted meat?
Or: How do little babies die of bacterial meningitis, the flu and other horrible diseases?
What you get is the same sort of sensibility as if you had walked into the middle of a movie.
Enlightenment is not the end all and be all. It is simply an awareness that the causal
EJ Gold has some very useful paradigms to explain this.
Finally to address one of your last points: Thank you to "A thought", who is absolutely right, "God" didn't put us all on Earth together - some with a knowledge that is so much above everybody else and so mysterious that the majority of humanity can't get it and the rest of us little stupid, unenlightened people just have to plod through life with our faulty belief systems killing us and making us sick.
There is a lot of confused and emotional thinking in that statement, so let me address
"God" didn't put us all on Earth together - some with a knowledge that is so much above everybody else..."
Nonetheless that is exactly what has happened. Avatars, Lightworkers, Starseeds all walk
and so mysterious that the majority of humanity can't get it..."
I don't know that they are protected Donna. People often do not want to enlightenment.
Lightwalking,
In Reply to: Very Well Donna. Don't Say I Didn't Warn You. posted by Gregory on April 22, 2002 at 14:52:03:
This time, I think you gave me more credible links to check out. I have quite a bit to munch on to try and understand where you are coming from. If you don't mind, I'll contact you by e-mail so we don't clog the board up with our back and forths.
In Reply to: Ok, You've given me quite a bit to munch on LOL posted by Donna E. on April 22, 2002 at 17:09:16:
In Reply to: Oh, please don't be afraid to clog the board. This topic is very interesting. nmi posted by R. on April 22, 2002 at 19:14:23:
It's very interesting to me too. I really want to continue on the conversation with Gregory. But, I am afraid I have been offending a few people who seem to be regulars here. I've been accused of making diagnoses and going way out of my league, when I thought I was only posting information that I thought would be found useful or interesting.
I guess I don't really know how to control the tone of my messages. I try to keep them short. In any case, I don't think I'll be posting here anymore.
Thanks anyway. (I think. I am not sure anymore that people actually mean what they write. I hope you meant what you said.)
In Reply to: Re: Oh, please don't be afraid to clog the board. This topic is very interesting. nmi posted by Donna E. on April 22, 2002 at 19:34:52:
nmi
In Reply to: Re: Oh, please don't be afraid to clog the board. This topic is very interesting. nmi posted by Donna E. on April 22, 2002 at 19:34:52:
They [the regulars] will have to get used to that then. What they say shouldn't discourage you from posting. You have obviously started an interesting discussion.
I always mean what I say. Or try to, at least.
In Reply to: This topic is very interesting. - this has gotten way off the subject.....nmi... posted by Kim on April 22, 2002 at 20:35:56:
In Reply to: Ok, You've given me quite a bit to munch on LOL posted by Donna E. on April 22, 2002 at 17:09:16:
You have garnered interest in a topic by deciding not to talk about it. I wonder why the topic
Why is that "R.?" And Kim, likewise, what draws you to this topic? Now that you've painted
Lightwalking,
In Reply to: Snacks Before Bedtime - Something To Munch On posted by Gregory on April 22, 2002 at 21:46:19:
It appears that YOU have painted Donna into the corner.
Let me preface what I'm going to say Donna, by first saying that I believe R.'s theory.
and therefore is "bad" for you, ultimately poisoning you.
warning itself. You heard this on the radio. Without stopping to think
This is the purview of Critical Thinking which I like to indulge in.
It saves me from making Emotional Decisions which later turn out to be faulty and indefensible.
You have invested quite a bit of energy into believing what you have heard, and incorporated
it into your world view. Since we all do this, all the time, you probably never give it a
second thought (or even a first one for that matter), and simply accept it and thus empower
it. My point is that you are simply creating the circumstances that you live in and believe.
people believe in the concept. Except it isn't a concept for you, but reality, sitting
right there in the front seat of your car, as you listen to the latest news report. You
empower that meat to harm you. The point that R. is making is to some extent, since you
believe it is harmful, you are going to direct your body to react to harmful in a way that
is consistent with harmful meat. Your body of course is going to oblige.
the word (or impose your world view on others. Take your pick).
as a different view may clarify the bigger picture.
whether a threat exists at all.
Lightwalking,
Gregory
Follow Ups:
No wait, Mickey D's is good for you, read this!
Posted by joker on April 18, 2002 at 19:07:49:
Follow Ups:
Re: Modern Meat & Emotional Decisions
Posted by Donna E. on April 18, 2002 at 19:15:25:
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That was great-thanks for the laugh nmi
Posted by Donna E. on April 18, 2002 at 19:23:04:
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Re: Modern Meat
Posted by Candy Apple on April 18, 2002 at 19:39:30:
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Re: to Donna - : Modern Meat
Posted by R. on April 18, 2002 at 20:24:24:
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Re: Modern Meat
Posted by Jan on April 18, 2002 at 20:26:55:
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Re: Modern Meat
Posted by Bored Observer on April 18, 2002 at 20:31:46:
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Ground meat and fat are oxidized, that's why I'd rather not eat them
Posted by Jan on April 18, 2002 at 20:33:47:
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I always like them rare!
Posted by Disapointed! on April 18, 2002 at 21:12:05:
Shocks!
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Re: Modern Meat
Posted by Alive and Well on April 18, 2002 at 21:25:42:
AMA a Doctors Labor Union on Doctors in Labor Union?
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Re: I always like them rare!
Posted by Candy Apple on April 18, 2002 at 22:48:26:
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To R - - : Modern Meat
Posted by Barb on April 18, 2002 at 22:51:08:
How can I ship eggs? :o)
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Re: I always like them rare!
Posted by Vince F on April 19, 2002 at 01:09:30:
into any liquid tomatoe products but tomatoe worms are
probably a yellowish green.
ground. I did find a story about Sliced salami being
tainted and something about watermellon. I had read a book
about puzzling causes of sickneses and people geting
salmonella from sliced watermellon and they concluded that
it was either on the outside of it before being sliced or
the knife used to cut it was contaminated. Washing foods
seems like the best idea. Wish I would have done that with
a steak that a waitress gave me that someone didn't finish
to give to my hounds. I don't eat in the diner because
Everything there gives me a problem. I figured that the
steak was cooked but it gave my hounds the runs...
Follow Ups:
Well said Donna!!!
Posted by a thought on April 19, 2002 at 09:12:45:
Thanks for the info
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Re: To R - - : Modern Meat
Posted by R. on April 19, 2002 at 13:08:44:
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Re: Modern Meat
Posted by R. on April 19, 2002 at 13:10:56:
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Re: Modern Meat
Posted by R. on April 19, 2002 at 13:11:45:
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Re: Modern Meat (Archive in diet.)
Posted by Walt Stoll on April 19, 2002 at 13:13:34:
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Re: Ground meat and fat are oxidized, that's why I'd rather not eat them
Posted by R. on April 19, 2002 at 13:18:40:
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I believe you missed my point Donna.
Posted by Gregory on April 19, 2002 at 21:25:45:
I did indeed read the links you supplied. They are irrelevant as they simply reinforce
what I said before. You believe that the meat is going to harm you, and therefore it will.
However, if your bodymind health were stronger, it couldn't harm you. Your inner terrain is
going to change as a consequence, and thus susceptable to damage from this meat. You will
blame it on the meat, rather than on your own weaknesses.
does you any good. I myself have stopped listening to both television and radio news, for this
very reason. I mentioned Critial Thinking to see if you could discern the difference
between Real News vs. Fake News.
seemed to have dismissed completely. However,you seem to be completely unaware that In the US, five major consortiums control nearly all the television and radio networks
and that these folks are the same ones who are interested in the status quo remaining the
way it is. People continue to buy their eggs, meat, potatoes, bread, even if,
technically these things are no longer food.
Lightwalking,
Gregory
Follow Ups:
Or maybe you just didn't get it. A thought for you.
Posted by Gregory on April 20, 2002 at 15:23:45:
before vitamin supplementation. Vitamins proliferated, and people, unable to figure out that
eating the right foods
(that after all are the source of the vitamins) rely instead on the vitamin pills.
for a radical food concept? If you need megadoses of something, then you need to correct
the underlying mechanism that is out of whack that requires the megadosing in the first place.
to have to keep breaking it down into something your mind can handle. You "debate" seemed biased
from the start, but as someone else said, we are all entitled to our wrong opinions.
Gregory
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Re: Modern Meat
Posted by Jan on April 20, 2002 at 19:36:35:
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Re: Meat grinders
Posted by Jan on April 20, 2002 at 19:43:05:
My favorite is the Family Grain Mill which I got for all its attachments - meat grinder included. You can get a motorized base for it (which I did not). Pleasant Hill Grain has it but I can't find it on the site right now. meat grinders at various prices
There appears to be a good selection at all prices at http://www.pierceequipment.com/grinders.html
Then there are yard sales and of course E-bay ....
Follow Ups:
Want more info
Posted by R. on April 20, 2002 at 21:37:16:
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Re: Meat grinders
Posted by R. on April 20, 2002 at 21:54:44:
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Re: Modern Meat
Posted by Sonja on April 21, 2002 at 00:53:44:
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Blah Blah Blah You Don't get it!!
Posted by a thought on April 21, 2002 at 15:09:09:
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us little simple people just can't follow along. too bad. how sad.
Posted by Gregory on April 21, 2002 at 15:34:10:
and that being the case, why bother explaining it at all?
to what I was proposing, but the merits of it. Donna E acted very reactionarily, according
to her belief system. I'm glad she did the research, but in the end (and from the beginning) it
simply reinforced what she already believed. Out of hand she disregarded what "R." had to say, dismissed it out of hand.
happening or if you will, her reality. A case of "don't confuse me with the facts. My mind is
already made up!" Anything that disturbs that reality is rejected out of hand, and in HER
reality, her belief about the food will cause her to get sick. someone else eating that same
food will not get sick. It is not their reality. So much of what you believe dictates reality.
Gregory
Follow Ups:
Re: us little simple people just can't follow along. too bad. how sad.
Posted by R. on April 21, 2002 at 17:21:15:
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Re: Blah Blah Blah You Don't get it!!
Posted by R. on April 21, 2002 at 17:55:59:
"It's really disgusting."
"Bye, Bye beef for me." -- all kinds of beef? Have been eating it with no problems so far, but hearing that radio program, the beef is deadly now?
Follow Ups:
To R. - re vaccines, wish I did have more info....
Posted by Jan on April 21, 2002 at 18:09:24:
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Re: To R. - re vaccines, wish I did have more info....
Posted by R. on April 21, 2002 at 19:54:39:
- http://www.whale.to/v/germ.htm
- http://www.whale.to/v/disease2.html
- http://www.whale.to/m/statistics.html
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Re: Blah Blah Blah You Don't get it!!
Posted by Sensual on April 21, 2002 at 23:13:17:
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Thanks for responses Sensual & R Greg to bad so sad
Posted by a thought on April 22, 2002 at 09:52:00:
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Tell you what: 'thought..."
Posted by Gregory on April 22, 2002 at 10:14:10:
I'll hold dialog with those who DO understand, and I'll stay out of your way.
You, in turn, stay out of mine. Just don't post (to me) and we'll get along fine.
Gregory
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OK "Greg"
Posted by a thought on April 22, 2002 at 12:11:59:
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Re: Tell you what: 'thought..."
Posted by Rodney on April 22, 2002 at 12:18:09:
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Re: I believe you missed my point Donna.
Posted by Donna E. on April 22, 2002 at 12:41:07:
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Very Well Donna. Don't Say I Didn't Warn You.
Posted by Gregory on April 22, 2002 at 14:52:03:
First Question: Do you know the True Nature of God?
I will answer for you: No, you do not.
How do I know? From the questions you give as rationale.
The child died because the child's soul decided it was time to leave.
Same answer. The reason why it doesn't make sense is because you are looking from an
Earthbound perspective rather than a Soul level. Also having no memory yourself of why
you have incarnated this lifetime and what goals you have set for yourself it is impossible
to guage what methods your soul has chosen to fulfill them.
Things happen for no apparent reason, cause and effect seem out of proportion, and so on. You
gradually assign value to people, places and situations. Sometimes you hit the mark, and
sometimes you don't. If you search for enlightenment you realize at some point you don't
have the whole picture.
relationships that other people make are limited and based on a model they are in control
and are not, each and every one of us fulfilling our soul goals.
Some of these paradigms will
resonate. You'll grok it immediately. Some require some thought and expanding your mind.
what I can.
the earth. Famous Avatars like Buddha & Jesus the Christ are world famous. As are Lightworkers
like Ghandi and Martin Luther King.
Despite the best efforts of Avatars and a whole host of support personnel, the majority of humanity DOES NOT get it. In that you are correct, although for the wrong reason.
and the rest of us little stupid, unenlightened people just have to plod through life with our faulty belief systems killing us and making us sick..."
That is true, you don't. That would mean searching if not for enlightenment,
then at the very least, a higher truth. I can't say that I see much of that. What I do see is
a refusal to even look. You seem far more interested in defending your worldview, then
considering that there might be something beyond, and thus you remain trapped in Maya, the Grand Illusion
One final point to address: And what about the people who are not as enlightened as you? How are they protected? What if they never have the good fortune to meet someone as enlightened as you that can show them the error of their belief system?
It is no blessing as it shatters belief systems. It is easier if you don't have a particular
attachment to your belief system to begin with. Much like a child not believing the iron is hot
and continually testing, I guess when you've been burned enough, the importance of finding
off switch becomes paramount.
Gregory
Follow Ups:
Ok, You've given me quite a bit to munch on LOL
Posted by Donna E. on April 22, 2002 at 17:09:16:
Follow Ups:
Oh, please don't be afraid to clog the board. This topic is very interesting. nmi
Posted by R. on April 22, 2002 at 19:14:23:
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Re: Oh, please don't be afraid to clog the board. This topic is very interesting. nmi
Posted by Donna E. on April 22, 2002 at 19:34:52:
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This topic is very interesting. - this has gotten way off the subject.....nmi...
Posted by Kim on April 22, 2002 at 20:35:56:
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Re: Oh, please don't be afraid to clog the board. This topic is very interesting. nmi
Posted by R. on April 22, 2002 at 20:36:10:
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What subject is that? nmi
Posted by R. on April 22, 2002 at 20:38:23:
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Snacks Before Bedtime - Something To Munch On
Posted by Gregory on April 22, 2002 at 21:46:19:
Very impressive Donna.
is so interesting.
Donna into a corner...
Gregory
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Gregory - Snacks Before Bedtime - Something To Munch On
Posted by Kim on April 23, 2002 at 00:07:26:
Sorry Gregory, I have to tell you I'm rooting for Donna.
I'm not getting into this arena. I'm no match for you.
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Re: Gregory - Snacks Before Bedtime - Something To Munch On