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I find it hard to find a more contentious issue then bread as a food source.
It seems like a significant percentile of people involved in the health nutrition put it at the bottom of the food period as the foundation of a good diet.
While others castigate it as promoting bowel disease.
I would see the point in existing cases of gluten intolerance and Celiac disease but find it hard to believe that man has been consuming this food for eons and all of a sudden in the 20th century we decide it is bad.
Perhaps there is some generalization here as some might be talking about bleached, preservative-packed bread we find in stores and others might be talking about the healthful whole-wheat kind.
If I have to give my views my bowel habits deteriorated significantly when I cut down on bread some years ago. I find that the stool is better formed when I do consume bread (the good kind) - most probably due to the fiber. However, I do not see the same effect with psyllium which tends to clump.
I would be interested to hear about the views of others.
In Reply to: bread anyone? posted by Martin on May 25, 2001 at 14:22:35:
My mother says that Jews, since antiquity, refer to bread as the "staff of life." Some articles in nutrition circles are stating that grains are a modern phenomenon. I don't quite get that. I realize that processed grains (for cereals and snack foods) are the product of "denaturing." But people have been milling grains for simple breads for thousands of years. I'm thinking it has to be the "junk" they put into the simple grains for "improving" flavor, texture, and shelf life. I've been buying bread from Whole Foods called Golden Wheat, which uses a combination of whole wheat and unbleached white flour, sweetened with honey. I don't believe even this qualifies as wholesome in the minds of "purist" nutritionists, however.
In Reply to: Re: bread anyone? posted by Peter B on May 25, 2001 at 14:36:17:
I am by no means an expert but as I understand it here are my thoughts.
1. Whole wheat/grain bread mad without white flour is much more nutritious and therfore better than most breads we see in stores.
2. Be that as it may, there seems to be a a large amount of people who do tolerate grains well, wheteher they are whole or not.
3. And finally in regeards to saying that people have eaten breads for thousands of years, in evolutionary terms 10 thousand years is not long enough for the body to adapt, so even though bread was introdudced thousands of years ago, it could be thousands more years before our bodies adapt.
In Reply to: bread anyone? posted by Martin on May 25, 2001 at 14:22:35:
I think like with everything else that some people handle
a thing like bread well and others don't. Those with a
problem i would call, Sensitive. I think like mutations
in nature help a species survive in a different environment
I guess some of us can handle things that others can't.
Humans are probably lucky in how we can modify our
environment or diet to fit our needs and being omnivorus
helps. If white bread weakens us we have lots of support
systems to take care of us.
i say if you like bread and feel good after eating it then
it probably isn't bad for you. If you don't like whole grain
breads but eat them to be healthy and something else does
you in and the bread wouldn't have then what have you
gained ?? If you are trying to sole a problem and whole
grains solve it then even if you don't like it you are
ahead and can look at it like medicine. I once tried
increasing fiber and ate cracked wheat bread and got rectal
bleeding and panicked but cuting out the bread and extra
fiber stoped the bleeding. My dad ate whole grain and
everything else they said to and my mom's dad ate what he
felt like. Dad had a massive heart attack at 70 and died at
84. Gramps ate whatever he felt like and lived to be 104. It
took a hospital to do him in.
VF
In Reply to: Re: bread anyone? posted by Neil on May 25, 2001 at 15:13:52:
bbbbbbbbbbbbbrrrrrrrrrrrrrreeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaddddddd!
In Reply to: Re: bread anyone? posted by Vince F on May 25, 2001 at 15:35:15:
nmi
In Reply to: bread anyone? posted by Martin on May 25, 2001 at 14:22:35:
Good observation, Martin.
I believe you already have the answer: some people tolerate bread well or even thrive on it, while others are better off it.
But the explanation for this is beyond me, other than a notion that it has something to do with genetics/ metabolism.
Another relevant factor can be additives and chemical used for raising the bread. I can buy 'organic' bread in an 'organic bakery' here, which is made from organic flour, but it blocks my bowels.
On the other hand wholemeal bread from a non-organic (but leading) bakery causes no problems. I should have asked them about the concise list of ingredients I guess...
Sonja
In Reply to: I say: eat bread, drink wine and have dessert once in awhile cuz you might be dead tomorrow! nmi! posted by The key is balance on May 25, 2001 at 15:41:11:
I think eating what the body needs may be better and that
might be different for different people.
VF
In Reply to: bread anyone? posted by Martin on May 25, 2001 at 14:22:35:
Martin, I an one who does not tolerate the modern bread well. I have found that if I use kamut it does not bother me. Kamut has a long history and from what I have read it is the only true wheat. The wheat grown today is not fit for humans to eat if you get it fresh out of the field much less after milling. The plants have been genetically altered for higher production. (Again we come to dollars.) I have gotten wheat straight from the combine bin and tried to fix bread out of it and it is some better but it is just not right because of breeding in my opinion. After the milling there are barely any acids or enzymes in the wheat so it has to be helped with partial vitamins, enzymes etc. Where all the power in the seed is has been taken out so the flour will not spoil. Try kamut it may help you. Good luck
In Reply to: Re: bread anyone? posted by Sonja on May 25, 2001 at 16:40:07:
I used to have a problem with some bread products when I
had become sensitive to some things like beer and had
allergies. I think I was sensitive from drinking polluted
water. One day I got the reaction from eating donuts and
the box said it had Bromated Flour in them. I asked a baker
I knew if he knew anything about it and he claimed it was
flour made from barley that was used to make beer and
since beer bothered me with an instant hangover I figured
that was the cause.
VF
In Reply to: bread anyone? posted by Martin on May 25, 2001 at 14:22:35:
our difinitive opinion is here on the site
dr stoll's article on sugar vs refined carbohydrates
and the krebs cycle
on the opening page, www.bcn.net/~stoll , scroll down to the articles and go to sugar vs refined carbos
In Reply to: Re: bread anyone? posted by leon cavallo on May 26, 2001 at 00:23:28:
So you (or the article) are saying that whole wheat bread is in essence refined carbohydrates?
In Reply to: Re: bread anyone? posted by Martin on May 26, 2001 at 14:38:19:
whole wheat bread is a misnomer...they START with whole wheat...or at least they are supposed to...but i am not convinced they all use actual wheat berries.
what they have to do to break them up into flour and all the other processes that are required to make bread in a mass produced way, not to mention in a CHEAP mass produced way, removes/destroys those REQUIRED vitamins and minerals, so its not as good as it could be for you.
In Reply to: Re: bread anyone? posted by leon cavallo on May 26, 2001 at 16:05:09:
Perhaps you are correct.
What do you think about whole wheat bought from the store - like King Arthur's or such?
I usually make my own bread because of it is hard to find bread with no yeast in it.
In Reply to: Re: bread anyone? posted by Martin on May 26, 2001 at 22:34:41:
hi
i dont know about me, but i know dr stoll is all correct ! ;-) i also know that i-- who am way too sensitive-- feel good when i eat grains like brown rice, millet, barley, etc, but i feel bad if i eat products with broken grains.
i am not familiar with whole wheat like king arthur's etc...we just buy dry grains in bulk...completely unprocessed. i know of king arthur's flour...which is definitely not whole wheat...it is flour !
lots of products misuse the words "whole' and "grain." if you are not eating pieces of boiled plants (presumably with a fork) including both the outter cases and the germ, you are not eating whole grains...
In Reply to: bread anyone? posted by Martin on May 25, 2001 at 14:22:35:
Hi, Martin.
You would be interested to know that Dennis Burkitt, MD (the medical missionary to Africa for whom Burkitt's Lymphoma [the first true cancer caused by a virus] is named) said: "If a person wanted to do one thing that would help his health the most, it would be to eat more whole grain bread."
Dr. Burkitt was one of the first "holistic" physicians who showed how much difference a whole foods diet made towards total health.
Of course those sensitive to grains or to gluten are of a different breed.
Walt
In Reply to: Re: bread anyone? (Dr Burkitt) posted by Walt Stoll on May 27, 2001 at 09:55:41:
Good to know that there is some confirmation for this in the medical community.
I definitely feel I am healthier when I eat whole bread. I cut down on bread about 5 years ago (primarily because it is difficult to find good bread in the States) and things haven't been the same since.
I am originally from Bulgaria and there the staple is whole wheat bread (fresh from the bakery) - digestive problems are very very rare - maybe perhaps because the other staple is yogurt and people generally don't consume meat on a regular basis. Most of the produce used to be organic and genetic engineering was virtually unknown. Monsanto and others like them are starting to ruin things there though.
In Reply to: Re: bread anyone? posted by leon cavallo on May 26, 2001 at 23:07:56:
Yes sure, it is difficult to make bread with the grain whole. At least I have not seen bread made that way.
King Arthur's is _ground_ whole wheat. I assume that the nutrition of the grain is not compromised too much in the grinding process.
In Reply to: Re: bread anyone? posted by Martin on May 27, 2001 at 13:21:40:
Hi, Martin.
NO, but, the minute it is ground, it begins to deteriorate. That is why the really good bread bakeries grind their whole grain right before baking the bread. If you have never experienced bread like that try Great Harvest Bread Stores. They are a chain now and no more wonderful bread exists. Call them and ask when their whole grain breads come out of the oven (about 10-11 AM)--{grain is ground right on site at about 4 AM; just in time to make the dough and give it time to rise}. Then show up to sample their wares. Every store gives out generous slices for samples and even have butter you can put on it if you want.
At first, 20 years ago, they only had whole grain breads. Unfortunately, about 10 years ago they started to also make refined breads.
Let us know what you experience.
Namaste`
Walt
In Reply to: Re: bread anyone? (Real Bread. Where to get it.) Archive in Whole Foods. posted by Walt Stoll on May 28, 2001 at 13:09:46:
will do...
thanks!
In Reply to: Re: bread anyone? (Dr Burkitt) - Thanks Dr Stoll! posted by Martin on May 27, 2001 at 13:18:37:
Thanks, Martin.
We humans are really "fouling our nest" aren't we?
Walt
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