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Dr. Stoll,
Thanks for sharing your wisdom with me yesterday during my coaching session. When I went to the health food store the only DMSO available is sold as a solvent. Is this what I should get? The clerk told me I should be very careful before ingesting it. It is 99% pure so I assume, per our conversation, it should be mixed 1 part DMSO to 2 parts aloe vera juice and taken 3 to 4 times daily - is this correct?
Also, how long should I take it and can I expect any side effects? Thanks for all the help. Mary
In Reply to: DMSO? posted by Mary on June 08, 1999 at 15:03:33:
Mary,
Until Walt gets back to you with an answer DO NOT INGEST THIS STUFF!!
I fear that there has been a breakdown in communications -- DMSO (in the manner you describe) should not be taken internally.
Perhaps you have the instructions Dr. Stoll gave you for EXTERNAL application?
Perhaps MSM was suggested for internal use instead of the DMSO?
Bob
In Reply to: Re: DMSO? posted by Robert McFerran on June 08, 1999 at 16:03:09:
thanks, Robert, I will follow your advice, although I'm pretty sure Dr. Stoll told me to mix it with Aloe Vera juice which I've been swallowing for Esophagael irritation.
It's certainly NOT an emergency so I WILL wait until I hear from Dr. Stoll. Thanks for your concern. Mary
In Reply to: Re: DMSO? posted by Mary on June 08, 1999 at 23:15:00:
correction on my last post. Dr. Stoll did NOT tell me to do anything - he merely suggested it.
In Reply to: Re: DMSO? posted by Robert McFerran on June 08, 1999 at 16:03:09:
Hi, Robert.
To MY knowledge, DMSO is administered topically, orally & intravenously.
I have used it that way myself & in my practice in KY.
If you have any basis for your concern of the oral route, PLEASE let me know.
Walt
In Reply to: DMSO? posted by Mary on June 08, 1999 at 15:03:33:
Hi, Mary.
DMSO is an industrial solvent that was accidentally discovered to have the property of penetrating tissue as though it was not there. The only reason any health food store would carry it is that it has been found to be safe & effective when tissue penetration is a desired effect. I have used it myself orally. The only thing is that that pure, it would likely cause irritation even if applied to the skin. More than 50% concentration is not recommended for skin application to avoid skin irritation and I would not use more than 30% concentration internally. If I experienced irritation I would cut the concentration in half.
It was the 70% that I recommended you dilute with the aloe vera. If you get the 99.9%, I would dilute it at least three parts aloe vera to one part DMSO.
Why would a healthfood store carry anything intended for use as an industrial solvent only?
Walt
In Reply to: Re: DMSO? posted by Walt Stoll on June 09, 1999 at 15:24:50:
Walt said, "Why would a healthfood store carry anything intended for use as an industrial solvent only?"
Just in case his point did not come across, let me beleagure the point some more:
DMSO is labeled as an industrial solvent because that's what it is.
Often the FDA, etc. won't let companies package and label products for their real practical intended use without lots of paperwork, testing, lawyers, fees, burecratic delays of tens of years, etc. So the packagers label the stuff as what it is and then they let you buy it and figure out exactly what you might want to do with it. They make no obvious health or use claims. They stay out of legal trouble that way, or at least so they hope.
The danger is that sometimes (health food) stores sell books telling you what to do with something, and they also sell that something, with no claims on the package label. (both made/published by the same company) The FDA sometimes puts 2 + 2 together and gets 4285: I.E. that UNPROVEN health claims are thereby being made for a specific (unlabeled) product.
I remember reading news reports about a case where a lot of a particular product and books about the health benefits of that particular product were confiscated by the FDA using this obscure logic. Sorry, I don't remember what product it was.
Anyway, health food stores sell DMSO (an industrial solvent and labeled as such) for the real purpose of dissolving and transporting things thru the skin without requiring cutting a hole :-)
In Reply to: Re: DMSO? posted by Walt Stoll on June 09, 1999 at 15:15:45:
My only concern was that there might be different types for different applications. I cannot find much info on DMSO anywhere. Is it OK to ingest DMSO which is sold as a solvent? I'm ready to go with it but thought I should double check. Can I expect any side effects? Thanks Mary
In Reply to: Re: DMSO? posted by Mary on June 09, 1999 at 18:03:07:
sorry I didn't read one of your posts, Walt, I already have my answer
In Reply to: Re: DMSO? posted by Walt Stoll on June 09, 1999 at 15:15:45:
Hi Walt,
My concern here is the AMOUNT taken orally.
I've used the stuff topically (didn't really help pain or inflammation -- but that I think has to do with biochemical differences that we see within the various metabolic subsets.
I've spoken with 5 people who have flown to Washington state for IV infusions (once again no benefit reported by the patients).
I know that the horse racing industry uses the stuff externally on a regular basis.
I'm aware of DMSO being used in small amounts to knock out bladder inflammation.
Chemically DMSO is a small molecule that is VERY reactive. In other words it gloms onto other molecules and can change their bioavailability (increase or decrease) radically (strong caution here for anyone concommitantly taking any other medication). I'm sure that you've noticed the strong exothermic reaction that takes place when adding water to a fairly pure DMSO solution. The above properties are what make it an interesting 'carrier' molecule. They are the same properties, chemically speaking, that might make it an effective anti-oxidant/free radical scavenger (the problem would be that it is SO reactive that the free radical would almost have to be the first molecule the DMSO sees).
I have concerns that ingesting large amounts (a couple of fluid oz. a day) might be difficult for the liver to process. Then again it might very well be 'tied-up' and made inert with other molecules far before reaching the liver for ultimate elimination.
MSM might be a safer alternative if indeed this molecule derives it's benefit from being chemically similar to DMSO. I have seen that MSM only assists the Agriculturist metabolic subset (I think it may be the same for DMSO).
I don't doubt that you've successfully used it (personally and with your patients) but the risk/reward ratio is such that I wouldn't ingest several oz. of it a day.
Having said all of this I replied to Martha out of genuine concern that she misinterpreted something you suggested -- since I had never heard of oral ingestion of any significant amounts of DMSO.
Bob
In Reply to: Re: DMSO? posted by Robert McFerran on June 09, 1999 at 18:47:26:
Robert,
I was diagnosed with systemic scleroderma 9 yr ago, and only ever developed mild symptoms. I thought I was a H-G, but it started to seem like too much meat and was slowing me down. I'm following the mixed diet.
I started using MSM 2 weeks ago in powder form. I'm up to 2 TSP a day. The skin on my fingers is loosening up and I can now pinch it where it was tight before. All of my skin has become very soft. My skin was shiny on my legs and it is now normal. I am totally off my Zantac for GERD.
MSM is organic sulfur and probably something my ancestors had in their diet on a daily basis (possibly in the water they drank).
In the book The Miracle of MSM, The Natural Solution for Pain by Stanley Jacob, M.D., Ronald Lawrence, M.D., and Martin Zucker it is stated that MSM has almost all the properties of DMSO, but without the side -effect of the oyster smell.
Just my 2 cents on MSM because I would hate to see anyone not try it just because they are a H-G type, although I think scleroderma just happens to be one of the diseases MSM and DMSO work well for. I'm not saying it's a cure (I will let you know later), but it has relieved symptoms for me
Linda J.
In Reply to: Re: DMSO? posted by Robert and Mary, MSM testimonial on June 10, 1999 at 07:50:16:
Hi Linda,
I really appreciate your comments even if they might shoot my metabolic theories about MSM to hell :)
The some 20 folks that I've had try MSM and report their results were testing it to see if it reduced joint pains (associated with arthritis), fatigue and/or allergies (both food and inhaled). The doses were incrementally increased to 2 1/2 tsp./day usually taken over the course of a month.
ALL 12 of the EXTREME H-G's reported that they were non-responders. 10 of the 12 reported no effect -- 2 of the 10 suggested that it might have made them feel worse (gastrointestinal upset).
ALL 8 of the EXTREME Agriculturists confirmed that the MSM did indeed help with arthritis pain and/or sensitivities to various allergens.
All the folks mentioned here were EXTREME (this is a major thesis of mine -- that, all things being the same, folks with EXTREME metabolisms are susceptible to developing leaky gut syndrome first, since their diets have a low probability of being EXTREME). The actual predictor is the separation on the metabolic spectrum between what a person was eating and what metabolism they inherited. In other words a Mixed type that was following what would be considered an EXTREME Agriculturist diet (a la Pritikin or Ornish) would have sufficient 'separation' metabolically speaking to induce mechanisms leading to leaky gut.
Actually my 'theories' about MSM and DMSO and their effectiveness within the various metabolic subsets have lots of holes in them. The most obvious is that if these compounds 'shift' things like metabolic output and in turn blood plasma pH they should make matters WORSE for some folks. I know that in the MIRACLE OF MSM the author puts forth the idea that there is an actual MSM molecule DEFICIENCY that is quenched by taking this supplement. This is too simple an answer for what I know is a more complex problem.
Linda, please keep us up to date on how you are doing with the MSM, metabolic diet, and of course your scleraderma. I'm glad the MSM is helping.
Bob
p.s. -- in my case the only thing that MSM did was to numb the interior of my mouth -- desensitizing it for several hours. Other than that I noticed no systemic effects. Of course my diet does not include any food allergens. Perhaps a person still eating food allergens would experience some relief?
In Reply to: Re: DMSO? posted by Robert McFerran on June 10, 1999 at 11:25:05:
Hi Robert,
Thanks for your input even though I'm a bit more confused than before! What are these "types" you're talking about?
Are they related to the blood type Diet? I' like to know if I'm a candidate for DMSO or MSM. Do you know if MSM can be mixed with aloe vera juice to enhance its effect on the upper GI system? I'm learning all I can (and this is the best health website I've found yet) but still have a long way to go. Thanks for your help. Mary
In Reply to: Re: DMSO/MSM? posted by Mary on June 10, 1999 at 11:38:45:
Thanks, Mary & Bob.
I can't disagree with anything you have said. It did, however remind me of the instructions I used to give my patients when trying oral DMSO. This is a substance that I believe should be started with the smallest dosage that might help and gradually increase it if it does not help. As soon as there are any untoward symptoms, and the benefits are not worth the symptoms, it is time to stop.
Normally, when I am recommending nutrients, it is the opposite. I do not consider DMSO a "nutrient". The largest dose likely to help is tried first and then, if there are no results, that is not going to work. If there ARE results every few months I recommend cutting the dose in half till the least effective dose for that person is discovered (for expense purposes only).
SO, you see that I really do agree with your basic premise. I appreciate the opportunity for clarification. So far as the MSM is concerned, I say let the bodymind laboratory decide.
Walt
In Reply to: Re: DMSO? posted by Mary on June 09, 1999 at 18:09:01:
Mary,
There are a lot of books on the use of DMSO available in your local library.
Let us know what you learn.
Walt
In Reply to: Re: DMSO/MSM? posted by Mary on June 10, 1999 at 11:38:45:
Hi Mary,
Dr. Stoll obviously knows more about DMSO and MSM than I do. I know that you had a health coaching session where Dr. Stoll suggested that you try the DMSO an I was not trying to interfere with that suggestion -- or suggest something else with the MSM.
It did strike me that MSM and aloe vera (used in conjunction with each other) might yield some interesting results but to date I'm unaware of anyone using that mix for the type of esophogeal problem you mentioned. You might experiment with it and report back with the results.
Linda, if you are reading this string, I would be interested to see what would happened if you too would try the MSM powder mixed in aloe vera juice to see if there is any synergy.
Bob
In Reply to: Re: DMSO/MSM? posted by Robert McFerran on June 10, 1999 at 16:24:57:
I did some searching with the new partial search engines, and all I came up with so far within this site was:
MSM (methyl sulfonyl methane)?
For the Glossary, what is it and what is it for?
Thanks
Glossary Czar
In Reply to: Re: DMSO/MSM? posted by Robert McFerran on June 10, 1999 at 16:24:57:
Hi Robert,
A few years ago I read in one of Dr Weil's books about a man who cured himself of scleroderma by drinking aloe juice, eating lemons (whole), taking vitamin E and changing his attitude about life. I tried this and found that aloe juice made me ill (diarrhea, stomach cramping) and the lemons was eroding the enamal off my teeth. I used a good quality aloe juice and it still made me sick. I think it is interesting that aloe juice has MSM in it.
I'm not sure why MSM is helping me so much. I do believe it is stopping the crosslinking of fibroblasts in my system. I do have alot of mercury fillings and maybe the sulfur is somehow counteracting the mercury toxins.
I'm totally confused as to why I did so well on the H-G diet and now feel almost like an AG type. The Lakota Indians have a very high rate of scleroderma and this is a disease they did not have in the past. I think this says alot about the introduction of junk food and stress. Why would this group of people have such a high incidence of this disease?
Linda J.
Linda J.
In Reply to: Re: For the Glossary, what is MSM? posted by RocketHealer Jim++ on June 10, 1999 at 17:05:52:
Here is a summary of the claims made for MSM. I can't vouch for the veracity of these claims. Everyone should do their own research before taking anything.
MSM is an organic sulfur compound. It is the fourth most commonplace mineral in the human body. MSM originates from the ocean, but works its way into our food supply. Unfortunately, any type of processing or heating destroys MSM. Unlike other types of sulfur, MSM is a bio-available form: the human body needs and uses it.
MSM makes cells more permeable allowing the flow of nutrients in and toxins out. This organic sulfur is used by the body to synthesize collagen, keratin, amino acids, insulin, immunoglobins
Used to treat:
Allergies
Sore Joints and Muscles
Chronic Fatigue
Elevated Cholesterol
Candida 'Yeast' Infections
Soft & Chipping Nails
Hair Loss
Skin Ailments: scars, burns, etc
Diabetes
Ulcers
Migrane Headaches
In Reply to: Re: DMSO/MSM and aloe juice posted by Linda J on June 11, 1999 at 08:52:41:
Linda,
North American Indians were genetically VERY 'pure' when compared to peppering of different gene pools that Europeans had during the last 5,000 years.
I believe that this genetic purity also implies a frailty in that they are poorly suited for rapid change in their environment (including diet).
As for the Aloe and lemon -- both are very powerful at altering blood plasma pH -- and assisting the Agriculturist metabolism. Lemon DEFINATELY hurts the H-G metabolism as does ingestion of Aloe. H-G's ingesting aloe should be cautious to take small amounts.
Bob
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