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Hey Walt,
I'm working with a book called "America Exhausted: Breakthrough Treatments of Fatigue and FM" by Edward J. Conley, D.O. He is very clear that there is a combination of causes causing CFS.
However, this part of his book caught my attention. He says:
"Perhaps the question asked most often in my office is how much should I exercise and what type of exercise should I do?
My basic answer to patients with severe fatigue and CFS is that first of all exercise should NOT cause you to have post-exertional fatigue. By that I mean, if you exercise and the next day you feel worse, you have overdone it.
You must be very careful with aerobic exercise. Aerobic exercise includes bike-riding, walking, swimming, running or anything that gets the heart rate up.
The reason for this is that people with severe fatigue or CFS tolerate aerobic exercise poorly. The reason for this is that the enzymes of the Krebs cycle have been damaged. Remember that the Krebs cycle is how we generate energy aerobically. If the Krebs cycle is not functioning as well as it should, we cannot generate energy for aerobic exercise as well as we should.
Therefore, aerobic exercise should be done with extreme caution. You should start off very slowly and you should increase very slowly, preferably exercising every other day. This allows your body some time to recover and rebuild energy. For those people with fatigue problems that seem to improve with exercise, you can increase the aerobic exercise more quickly. The only way you would know this is through experimentation and again I caution you to start off very carefully!
Most patients with CFS/CFIDS tolerate anaerobic exercise much better than aerobic exercise. What anaerobic exercise means is that it does not increase the heart rate to a significant degree."
I thought you might find this interesting. But also, this sounds like me. Aerobics causes me to have terrible exacerbations. Basically, exertion or anything that gets my heart rate up -- even climing a set of stairs or sitting in a hot tub -- can make me feel worse. I want to do aerobics so much but it NEVER works.
It actually seems to me like during exercise, the energy production shuts down, then the adrenals kick in to provide the needed energy -- and because they're not functioning right, they simply don't shut off after that, and run non-stop after that for days and keep me awake at night, too.
In the chapter on energy production, he says,
"I hate to simplify the treatment of chronic fatigue syndrome, but if I had to put into one sentence how to cure CFS, it would be this: When we solve your Krebs cycle problems, we have solved your chronic fatigue. If you can get your Krebs cycles functioning at an improved level, then your health will inevitably improve."
He continues, "So there are several ways to determine whether a person is deficient in vitamins, minerals and amino acids. Each method has problems associated with it and is imperfect. However, only when the patient's physician knows which substances a person is deficient can a treatment plan be developed that resolves the functional blocks in the Krebs cycle energy production and improvement of the immune system."
He recommends a combination anti-oxidant with B, Carotene, E, C, and selenium along with newer antioxidants like N-acetyl-cysteine, pycnogenol, COQ10.
When you mentioned Krebs cycle in my health coaching, I didn't know anything about it and didn't really know what you were talking about. So this helps me understand better.
But I seem to be stuck. I can't get better by doing aerobics. However, taking vitamin C, B-complex, or magnesium, either by IV or orally, also causes an increase in my symptoms. Also since my last exacerbation 4 days ago, the amino acids don't seem to be making any difference at all.
I could order his formula for antioxidants, but since I react to B and C ...... I wonder if you have any thoughts about this. Do you agree that this sounds like what is going on with me? If so, do you have any suggestions for how to solve the Krebs cycle problems?
Thanks,
Happygal
In Reply to: Aerobics Exercise and CFS/Adrenal Exhaustion posted by Happygal on December 17, 2002 at 22:02:58:
Hi HappyGal,
I'm curious about one statement:
"Most patients with CFS/CFIDS tolerate anaerobic exercise much better than aerobic exercise. What anaerobic exercise means is that it does not increase the heart rate to a significant degree."
Anaerobic exercise (exercise where your body begins to procide lactic acid due to insufficient levels of oxygen) actually occurs at a higher heart rate than aerobic exercise. I wonder if he meant to say sub-aerobic exercise, meaning a heart rate that was less than 65-70 percent of maximum heart rate. Most books I read put your aerobic heart rate zone at 70-80 percent of your maximum.
How well do you tolerate low heart rate exercise? Do you still get the same effect with being kept awake at night? I've heard from some that Pyruvic acid can be used to supplement the Kreb's cycle for those trying to lose weight. I wonder if this supplement would also be appropriate here.
Take care,
Daisy
In Reply to: Anaerobic Exercise posted by Daisy on December 18, 2002 at 08:46:06:
Thanks, Daisy!
He goes on to say, "One fine example of an anaerobic exercise is weight-lifting. Most patients with CFIDS are able to tolerate weight-lifting. Again, we caution them to start off with very light weights and to do it every other day.
Weight-lifting of course does several things: 1) it helps the patient maintain muscle tone and muscle strength, in spite of the fact that they are not able to be active. 2) it allows for some increased circulation to the muscles; 3) it allows the patient to do some exercise which causes an increased production of endorphins. Endorphins are the natural painkilling substances in your brain.
The positive effects of weight-lifting have been well-documented in nearly all age groups. I recommend you begin a weight-lifting program every other day, starting at extremely light weights. If you are a woman, you may even want to start with a one pound weight doing whatever number of repetitions you can tolerate comfortably. If you are a man, you may start at between five and ten pounds. Try to work your arms and legs .... See how you feel the next day. If you feel good, continue to lift at this weight for at least two weeks before slowly increasing your weight. Again I caution you, do not increase your weight too much or too quickly. Take your time because we want you to stay with weight-lifting exercise indefinitely."
I do all right with gentle rebounding and gentle walking outside for up to 1/2 hour. The problem is I don't like cold so I tried walking in place last week inside the house. Seems it causes more exertion than walking outside because 22 minutes of that caused one of the worst exacerbations I've had for a long time. Some busy days of massage (3 - 4 sessions) can sometimes cause problems, too.
It just seems like my body doesn't take well to doing much movement. I'm fully stretched now so muscular or connective tissue restriction is not the issue. Oh, I really want to move.
Forgot to say in the last post that I have been sleeping a bit better sometimes due to unwinding from bracing -- as long as I don't get much physical activity (slow work schedule, etc.). And I see it as progress that I'm able to tolerate 3 vitamin E capsules a week and I think they are helping strengthen my body.
I'm concerned that after my writing project is over and I start working full time again that my body won't be able to tolerate that much activity.
Pyruvic acid -- I will look into it! Thanks!
Best wishes,
Happygal
In Reply to: Anaerobic Exercise posted by Daisy on December 18, 2002 at 08:46:06:
Thanks, Daisy.
I agree that he is not very clear abou this. In fact I might go so far as to say he is confused about this.
Walt
In Reply to: Aerobics Exercise and CFS/Adrenal Exhaustion posted by Happygal on December 17, 2002 at 22:02:58:
Hi, Happygal.
You are learning why teaching is such a good way to learn.
Not everyone should start with exercise. many have to do another of the legs of the stool before trying exercise. Also, there are many kinds of exercise and if aerobics are not helpful other forms should be tried. I agree with most of what he says. This was what I was trying to say when we discussed the Krebs Cycle.
Walt
In Reply to: Re: Aerobics Exercise and CFS/Adrenal Exhaustion posted by Walt Stoll on December 18, 2002 at 10:06:54:
Thanks, Walt.
So what I do not understand (it was just mentioned, we did not discuss it much and I didn't find much in the archives), and what my question is, what restores the Krebs cycle?
Whatever it is, I would like to do it.
Thanks,
Happygal
In Reply to: Re: Anaerobic Exercise posted by Happygal on December 18, 2002 at 09:17:41:
Hi HappyGal,
I think I may understand what he's talking about in terms of anaerobic activity and weightlifting. Weightlifting can actually be locally anaerobic in terms of whether the muscle group being worked is getting enough oxygen or not. That's why when you lift heavy weights, but may feel a burn in the muscle group affected. That burn is due to lactic acid, so those particular muscles are anaerobic at that point. When I lift weights, my heart rate stays around 110-120 bpm when I'm working hard. If I'm really struggling with a weight, it may go up to 140.
In contrast, anaerobic exercise occurs at the point your body as a whole isn't getting enough oxygen and lactic acid can begin to build throughout the muscles in your body. This is probably happening at the point where you are breathing pretty hard. For me, this point corresponds to a heart rate of around 172 bpm or higher (my max is 194). I'm guessing, though, that he isn't recommending this since to attain this heart rate you have to work a lot harder than you would if you were working in the aerobic zone.
Weight training has huge benefits even beyond what he says it does for chronic fatigue. I sure hope you can find something that works for you.
All my best,
Daisy
In Reply to: Re: Anaerobic Exercise posted by Happygal on December 18, 2002 at 09:17:41:
Listen to this statement:
"If you are a woman, you may even want to start with a one pound weight doing whatever number of repetitions you can tolerate comfortably. If you are a man, you may start at between five and ten pounds. Try to work your arms and legs .... See how you feel the next day. If you feel good, continue to lift at this weight for at least two weeks before slowly increasing your weight."
The statement above is too vague to have been written by anyone who has done serious hands-on study of weight training principles.
Note that Conley does not mention WHAT exercise to use the "light" weights. When he says, "lift this weight" I have to ask "How?" There are thousands of weight training lifts. Frankly, there are many ZERO-weight exercises that would be too much for anybody except the most in-shape athletes. (Hill sprints and dynamic get-ups, for example.) On the other hand, there are many exercises that a 5-10 pound weight wouldn't even be noticed. (Deadlifts and squats, for example.)
Some of the advice is fine, such as starting with a conservative weight and using a slow rate of progression, but it still smacks of someone repeating what they've read and not what they've done.
In Reply to: Re: Aerobics Exercise and CFS/Adrenal Exhaustion - question posted by Happygal on December 18, 2002 at 11:25:35:
Hi, Happygal.
Avoiding refined foods, eating the widest possible variety of whole foods and try taking the Perfect Food (green lable) supplement HY has been taking about and I have just started taking www.gardenoflifeusa.com
Namaste`
Walt
In Reply to: Re: Aerobics Exercise and CFS/Adrenal Exhaustion - question posted by Walt Stoll on December 19, 2002 at 09:34:59:
Hi Walt,
Just in case you wanted to know, Perfect Food "green label" has stevia in it. It's much too sweet for me. They have a "blue label" also, without the stevia, which I like much better. Also, you can get it cheaper at www.transformyourhealth.com.
I also just found out that Vitamin Shoppe also sells all their products now with their %30 discount.
Namaste`
Joanie
In Reply to: Re: Aerobics Exercise and CFS/Adrenal Exhaustion - question posted by Walt Stoll on December 19, 2002 at 09:34:59:
Thanks, Walt.
I can do that.
Now, I just wish I could figure out what will fix up my adrenals. Maybe another six months of SR?
BTW, all the muscles in my neck have released from doing SR during the last six months and I can hardly believe how good it feels! :o)
Namaste`
Jan
In Reply to: Re: Aerobics Exercise and CFS/Adrenal Exhaustion - question posted by Happygal on December 20, 2002 at 00:14:12:
One more thing --
Also now that I'm over this last exacerbation, my stool symptoms have suddenly improved. This healing seems to take forever, but it sure is wonderful!
Best wishes,
Happygal
In Reply to: Re: Aerobics Exercise and CFS/Adrenal Exhaustion - question posted by Joanie on December 19, 2002 at 14:36:40:
Thanks, Joanie.
To me, the stevia is just another herb and so I get an extra slice of phytochemicals :o).
Walt
In Reply to: Re: Aerobics Exercise and CFS/Adrenal Exhaustion - question posted by Happygal on December 20, 2002 at 00:14:12:
Thanks, Happygal.
There is no question that these things work--only whether people will do them.
Some tissues and functions take longer than others to respond.
Namaste`
Walt
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