Greetings! I was wondering if by chance you could direct me to any studies the have been performed specifically with the hcl form of glucosamine.
Thank You, Tony
Follow Ups:
Re: glucosamine hcl
Posted by Deb on January 22, 1999 at 16:47:17:
In Reply to: glucosamine hcl posted by Tony Simpson on January 22, 1999 at 12:57:04:
Hi Tony,
I have some information about the differences between hcl & sulfate. It originally came from the company that manufactures the hcl. It refers to the original studies, tho unfortunately, it doesn't say where to find details. It seemed to me to be reasonable, but I would be interested in what other people make of it.
Walt/Bill - is it OK to post this kind of thing, which looks like it was a fact sheet, published by the co for public info. Or would you rather I didn't?
If it's not OK to post, I can e-mail it you, Tony.
Cheers, Deb
Follow Ups:
Re: glucosamine hcl
Posted by Walt Stoll on January 23, 1999 at 10:21:00:
In Reply to: glucosamine hcl posted by Tony Simpson on January 22, 1999 at 12:57:04:
Hi, Tony.
This is the responsibility of the manufacturer (or distributor) to provide. Ask BOTH the distributors (or manufacturers) of Glucosamine Sulfate AND Glucosamine HCL.
Let us know what you learn.
By the way, a good resource woud be your veterinarian since vets have been using this stuff for years.
Walt
Re: glucosamine hcl
Posted by Walt Stoll on January 23, 1999 at 11:06:46:
In Reply to: Re: glucosamine hcl posted by Deb on January 22, 1999 at 16:47:17:
Dear Deb,
So long as it doesn't mention a trade name, it is EXACTLY the kind of thing we need to have posted on this BB.
Thanks, Walt
The glucosamine info....
Posted by Deb on January 23, 1999 at 19:07:34:
In Reply to: Re: glucosamine hcl posted by Deb on January 22, 1999 at 16:47:17:
Hi all,
Here is the info I have on glucosamine. I have taken out the info about the manufacturers, but can e-mail it to Tony or anyone else who wants to contact them. They should be able to direct you to the original studies. Any comments on the scientific valdity of what they say would be appreciated.
Thanks, Deb
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GLUCOSAMINE HYDROCHLORIDE vs. SULPHATE
There is discussion over which of the two glucosamine salts, hydrochloride or sulphate, is preferred for the treatment of osteoarthritis. The answer is straightforward - both salts, in the pure form, deliver equally effective amounts of the desired glucosamine to joint cartilage. If there is a preference, it should be based on the relative purity and economics - not on the specific salt. Historically, the sulphate was used for the initial European clinical studies because it was made available for that purpose by an Italian Pharmaceutical company which had a proprietary position on the sulphate. Thus, it was to their marketing advantage to supply only the sulphate and ignore the hydrochloride.
The original researchers, however, clearly relate all of the observed benefits relative to osteoarthritis to 'glucosamine' not to the sulphate. When ingested, glucosamine sulphate is fully ionised in the stomach by the relatively strong concentration of hydrochloric acid (pH 1-3) naturally present. As a result, glucosamine ions and sulphate ions are thoroughly mixed with an overwhelming number of chloride and hydrogen ions from the hydrochloric acid. If you could stop at this point and
recover the glucosamine salt, you would got 99+ % glucosamine hydrochloride as the sulphate is essentially lost due to its very low concentration relative to the extremely large amount of hydrochloric acid present.
As reported by Setnikar1, 54% of the glucosamine that moves into the small intestine (pH 6.8) exists in it's un-ionised, amine form (not a salt at all) while 46% is ionised (the amine group is protenated and positively charged). In the blood at pH7.4, 75% of the glucosamine is present as the neutral amino, while only 25% is ionised. Since ionisation or high polarity is usually an obstacle in the crossing of cellular membranes, the ability of glucosamine to exist predominantly in its less polar, un-ionised form in the small intestine and, even more so, in the blood contributes directly to it's bioavailability. The specific salt form is relevant only as a convenient delivery vehicle with the proviso that the salt must readily dissolve (ionise) in stomach acid when ingested - the hydrochloride & the sulfate equally meet this requirement.
The real issue therefore, becomes one of purity (and stability). Our highly stable D-Glucosamine hydrochloride is domestically manufactured in an FDA approved, GMF plant and is 99%+ pure with less than 0.1% ash on ignition. Glucosamine sulfate, on the other hand, must be prepared with a co-mixture of sodium or potassium chloride in order to prevent the glucosamine sulfate from decomposing & turning brown. For this reason, virtually all of the glucosamine sulfate imported into the US is only 74% pure with the remainder being sodium or potassium chloride (this accounts for the high % of ash found in the sulfate on ignition). In a dietary supplement market that is under constant government & media scrutiny, purity & stability are key elements for success.
There is also the additional question of economics. Because glucosamine sulfate is made from glucosamine hydrochloride, it is significantly more expensive - approximately twice the price of the hydrochloride. The necessary addition of 26% sodium chloride to maintain stability further dilutes the sulfate and significantly adds to the cost of the sulfate on an active glucosamine basis. Conversely, D-Glucosamine HCl provides a high purity, stable source of glucosamine that is readily absorbed by the body and is economically priced. It is the most cost effective form of glucosamine available.
Comparison :
· Functionality - Both the hydrochloride & sulfate dissolve (ionise) completely in the stomach's hydrochloric acid, which makes all of the glucosamine present, regardless of the source, readily available for absorbtion in the small intestine. Once absorbed into the blood stream, the glucosamine, independent of the original salt, is equally available to the body
· Purity - Glucosamine Hydrochloride is highly stable & manufactured to a purity of over 99%. On the other hand, the sulfate is only 74% pure as it must be stabilised with approximately 26% sodium (or potassium) chloride to prevent it from decomposing (turning brown) and losing it's effectiveness.
· Active Glucosamine - The neutral aminosugar, glucosamine, is the real bio-active material that acts as the precursor to the body's synthesis of glucosaminoglycans, hyaluronate, proteoglycans, and collagen - all the necessary components to repair & maintain healthy cartilage & joint function. Based on the aforementioned purity & the relative molecular weights of glucosamine & each of it's salts, simple math shows that Glucosamine Hydrochloride delivers 81.3& active glucosamine while the sulfate supplies a meagre 47.8%.
· Equivalent dosage - the suggested daily dose is 1500mg of Glucosamine hydrochloride. In order to get the equivalent amount of glucosamine found in 1500mg of the hydrochloride, you would need to take 2608mg of the sulfate.
· Daily & Monthly Usage - If both products are packaged in 750mg capsules, you would have to take 3.5 sulfate capsules daily compared to only 2 hydrochloride capsules on order to get the same amount of active glucosamine. On a monthly basis, you would need 104 capsules of sulfate to equal 60 capsules of hydrochloride. If packaged 60 to a bottle, you would need to buy 1.73 bottles of sulfate compared to only 1 bottle of hydrochloride.
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Follow Ups:
Re: The glucosamine info....
Posted by Walt Stoll on January 24, 1999 at 11:51:55:
In Reply to: The glucosamine info.... posted by Deb on January 23, 1999 at 19:07:34:
Thanks, Deb.
I REALLY appreciate your taking the time to share this with us. I guess I will have to change my mind about what I have been saying. Some of this information I have never seen before. Do you have more references I could look up?
Namaste` Walt
Follow Ups:
Re: The glucosamine info....
Posted by Nancy on January 24, 1999 at 13:43:02:
In Reply to: The glucosamine info.... posted by Deb on January 23, 1999 at 19:07:34:
deb
Do you think you could explain to me how you copied that article and sent it to the BB? Walt and I have been wondering how to do it.
Thanks.
Where the info came from & how I posted it....
Posted by Deb on January 24, 1999 at 19:25:00:
In Reply to: The glucosamine info.... posted by Deb on January 23, 1999 at 19:07:34:
Hi Nancy & Walt,
This info came to me as a bad photocopy of a fax. Normally I would scan something like this to get it into Word. In this case I had to retype it, and saved it as a Word doc.
To get it into the message, I went to my Word doc, highlighted the part I wanted to copy, selected Edit Copy. Then went back to my BB message, clicked inside it, right-clicked my mouse to get a context-sensitive menu, and selected Paste.
In most computer applications, if Edit Copy or Edit Paste isn't available on your main menu, clicking the right hand button on your mouse, instead of the left, will give you a menu. So this technique works to transfer info between most applications : in the first app - highlight, right-click, Copy, then in the 2nd - click in the position you want, right-click, Paste). I use it mostly to copy info from the internet into Word docs, but can also be used for Word to e-mails, e-mails to BB messages, etc. The only times it does't seem to work is if the Interent info is in Adobe Acrobat, or if it is in a table.
Is this what you wanted to know?
Walt,
I don't have any more references, but the company this info came from is : Wilke International, Inc. 15036 W. 106th Street, Lenexa, KS 68215, USA. Tel : (913) 438-5544, Fax : (913) 438-5554 if anyone wants to contact them direct for their references.
Deb.
Follow Ups:
Re: Where the info came from & how I posted it....
Posted by Walt Stoll on January 25, 1999 at 11:38:26:
In Reply to: Where the info came from & how I posted it.... posted by Deb on January 24, 1999 at 19:25:00:
Thanks, Deb.
Once again the old "right click button gambit" eh? I guess I an just going to have to bite the bullet & learn about that right button, aren't I?
Namaste` Walt
Re: The glucosamine info....
Posted by Avani Hirway on January 25, 1999 at 22:32:14:
In Reply to: Re: The glucosamine info.... posted by Walt Stoll on January 24, 1999 at 11:51:55:
Hi Walt,
I have some pain in my joints (mostly my knees)
every once in a while especially when my body is exposed to cold temperatures. I feel much better when I let hot air
blow on my knees or cover my knees with a blanket. My grand
father has arthritis and my mother has similar symptoms as I
do. I was wondering if it is okay to take Glucosamine eventhough we don't have swellings/a serious condition yet( D-Glucosamine HCl?) or do you recommend any diet/medication so that the condition does not get aggravated further.
Thanks,
Avani
Follow Ups:
Re: Where the info came from & how I posted it....
Posted by Nancy on January 26, 1999 at 21:28:03:
In Reply to: Where the info came from & how I posted it.... posted by Deb on January 24, 1999 at 19:25:00:
Deb
Now this in interesting stuff! I'm intrigued enough to have printed out your instructions so I can experiment with it over the weekend when I have more time. I just love learning about computers, and I'm from Missouri, so I do better when kind people like you show me.
If you were to scan something into Word (I'm not sure if I can do that yet or not--I just got my scanner for Christmas), how would it come out? Looking like the bad fax copy or looking like everything else on the BB? I really want to learn how to do this! If it turns a bad fax into a perfect typed copy, that is truly remarkable! This, I've got to learn!
Thanks so much!!
Follow Ups:
Scanning documents
Posted by Deb on January 26, 1999 at 23:39:10:
In Reply to: Re: Where the info came from & how I posted it.... posted by Nancy on January 26, 1999 at 21:28:03:
Nancy,
You will need software with OCR (optical character recognition) capabilities for your scanner. Then when you scan something you can choose whether it scans as a picture, or whether it tries to convert it to letters. The better the quality of what you are scanning, the less errors there will be. With the bad fax, there were so many errors, it was quicker to retype it. But if I have a clean document, I don't usually have to fix up much.
Take a note of my e-mail address (wheelsnz@ihug.co.nz) and feel free to contact me direct if you have any more questions.
Deb.
Re: The glucosamine info....
Posted by Walt Stoll on January 27, 1999 at 12:32:16:
In Reply to: Re: The glucosamine info.... posted by Avani Hirway on January 25, 1999 at 22:32:14:
Dear Avani,
I see no reason why glucosamine could not be used as a preventive. Check with your vet.
In the long run, remember, the management of chronic conditions (like arthritis) will never be something you TAKE but something you DO.
Walt
Follow Ups:
Re: The glucosamine info....
Posted by Avani on January 27, 1999 at 13:04:17:
In Reply to: Re: The glucosamine info.... posted by Walt Stoll on January 27, 1999 at 12:32:16:
Dear Dr. Stoll,
I just ordered copies of your book though I am not
sure if it contains prevention techniques for arthritis.
I saw books by Dr. Theodosakis on Arthritis Cure.
Would you recommend the techniques there? I have no idea
what the preventive techniques you are alluding to are?
It would help me a lot if you could just give me some reference.
Thanks a lot for your help!
Avani.
Follow Ups:
Re: The glucosamine info....
Posted by Walt Stoll on January 28, 1999 at 14:00:55:
In Reply to: Re: The glucosamine info.... posted by Avani on January 27, 1999 at 13:04:17:
Dear Avani,
My book should be all you need IF you read the entire book. If you just go to the chapter about arthritis, you will miss stuff you need. Also, there are volumes of references in the back that relate to the text. A good one would be Robert Anderson, MD's book about wellness.
Walt