i GATHER THAT THERE ARE NO DOCUMENTED ACCOUNTS OF SIDE EFFECTS, BUT ARE THERE RESEARCH STUDIES WHICH DEMONSTRATE THE EFFECTIVENESS OF GLUCOSAMINE AND CHONDROITIN? THANKS
Dear Chetan,
This is another time when the manufacturer needs to be appraised of the suspected connection. They should be able to tell you more.
Also, you might use the search feature for this BB & read everything you can find about glusosamine, glucosamine side-effects AND those conditions frequestly treated with glucosamine. There are many other things that work better in the long run without any risk of side effects.
THEN, if you still have questions, write again.
Walt
Dear Bill,
Use the search feature provided for this BB & read everything you can find that is related to your question.
I hope Doc Dave will jump in here because I know that alignment alterations would be of immense help to you at least at the beginning. A combination of Chiropractic and Rolfing would do you a world of good.
Next, Iwould recommend you consider no weight bearing exercises for a couple of years until your susceptibilities can be dealt with. All communities now have underwater exercise facilities in their indoor pools for people like you to get the necessary exercise without weight bearing.
The most weight bearing you should do is whatever you HAVE to do just geting around with daily necessities. At this stage, every step you take is one less you will have for the rest of your life. You need the closest parking place to where you are going and should live on one floor and should use the elevator instead of the steps whenever possible--you get the idea!
In a year or two, you will begin to be able to use your knees a little more & shoujld be able to get back to normal use for your age by the end of 2 years. In the meantime, you need to become a student of why this happened to you & what you have to do about those causes.
Let us know how you do AND write with any more questions.
Walt
I am a 58 yr old male diabetic.
I take insulain 2x daily,
10units in a..m and 30 units in p.m. I started takeing 3 Glucosamine Chondroitin daily. My blood sugar has elevated, could it possibly be from the GC? I started taking
the GC for pain in hips, doctor said cartlidge not as good as
schould be.
Would appreciate any help you could give me on this.
Thanking you in advance
Jim Skinner
Someone told me that cosamine is not the same as glucosamine. Is that correct? What is the difference?
Dear Dr. Stoll:
Found your internet site via Infoseek Search engine, searching for Glucosamine Sulfate information. My interest in glucosamine sulfate is for its properties (make cartilages grow back) to repair a torn cartilage. I am a 58 year old male with a torn cartilage in my left knee (which got torn about 2 YEARS ago by going fast up & down steps for "aerobic exercise purposes"). My right knee, which never got injured, but which I have been using more is now starting to hurt a bit. Other than these knee problems and borderline-high blood pressure (which I control with vitamins and mineral/herbal supplements), I am in good health.
The torn cartilage must not be too large because I can do a normal life (including waking for 2 or 3 miles/day) except that my left knee hurts when I go up steps (it does not hurt going down steps). I can squat and bend and touch my toes with minimum or no pain. I never had any swelling in the knee.
I am not particularly looking forward to the arthroscopic surgery and was thinking about trying the glucosamine sulfate in about 1000 or 1500 mg 2 or 3 X/day. I have only seen 1 posting on your site about rebuilding "worn down cartilages" by Curt Barrett on 8-18-97 and you did not seem to be too optimistic about it.
Looking over your site I saw that:
1. Glucosamine HCl is not as effective as the sulfate form.
2. For best effects glucosamine sulfate should be taken "in between meals". I assume an hour before meals should be adequate.
3. Main side effects of glucosamine sulfate is intestinal gasses. loose stools and abdominal pain. I did use your search engine and got a ton of findings.
4. Chondroitin sulfate taken orally is ineffective. (too large a molecule to be absorbed)
Questions:
1. What do you think of glucosamine sulfate for this case? Is this the impossible dream? Have you heard of any successful cartilage rebuilding by glucosamine sulfate?
2. Is my # 2 assumption above OK (about taking the glucosamine 1 hr. before meals).
3. How about dosage?. I was thinking in trying 500 mg 2 x/day for about 4 days and if there were no side effects increasing it to the recommended 1500 mg/day.
4. How soon should I expect to see a benefit from taking the glucosamine? Weeks or months.?
5. Is there any other vitamin or supplement that may be synergistic to help the glucosamine repair a cartilage?
6. There are many postings on your site about "mad cow disease". I thought the glucosamine sulfate was synthetically made. Is it? Do you know if most of the glucosamine sulfate is imported or made in the US?
This is a long posting, but you have complained that people don't give you enough details of their case. Thank you, in advance, for your guidance and help.
Antonio Alvarez
Coraopolis, PA
Dear sir,
Just recently found your site. Enquiring about the benefits of glucosimine sulfite/chrondroiton. First of all, what is it, and will it help relieve low back pain? I have suffered from this condition for 26 years, starting with a farm related injury. For the past 14 years I have been at a lower physical stressing job but continue to have bouts with my lower back. An acquaintance who hurt her back in a traffice accident revealed that a medical doctor, one whom I had seen also, recommened a non-prescription medicine call glucosimine sulfate chrondroiton. Please enlighten me.
Thanks,
Daniel J. Markell
I just purchased (yesterday) a book by Theodosakis, MD, Adderly, and Fox called "The Arthritis Cure". They recommend this compound with chondroitin sulfate. They cite a number of overseas studies that indicate fairly permanent relief. I wanted to check on the Internet and found your BB after fighting my way through stacks of www pages discussing its use in horses and dogs.
The Arthritis Foundation condemns it without reason citing no long term studies but admits it is efficacious in the short term. I just scolded them for being negative and condemning a product because there is no long term study. Apparently, the product is not deleterious or the FDA would have stepped in a long time ago.
The book is interesting (I have not read yours and did not know it existed until seeing the BB) but, like you, would like to know other's experience with it.
Thanks for having this link: it is great to find some information to back up what I have read.
Herb Phillipson, Jr. 502 Sunnyside Drive, Dowagiac, MI 49047
hep@iname.com
In Reply to: Re: glucosamine posted by Herb Phillipson, Jr. on March 02, 1997 at 12:27:19:
Dear Herb,
Thanks for sharing your information. I couldn't agree more. In MY experience, the reason it is not being supported by the Arthritis Foundation & the FDA is that ANY health-care provider can recommend it--it does not require a prescription. The Arthritis Foundation is supported by the AMA BECAUSE the AF only supports things recommended by the Allopathic Monopoly.
I still remember an hour TV appearance I participated in back in about 1983. On the panel was the head honcho of the AF, the president of the state medical association, a representative from the FDA & myself. I spoke positively about the favorable results I had seen with diet, exercise, skilled relaxation & essential oils. None of us knew about chondroitin & glucosamine back then.
I was roundly denounced as a quack by every one of the other participants. They all said that physical therapy & prescription drugs were the only things worth considering. THEN, I was gratified to see the rest of the program used up by one after another of audience participants telling their own personal stories about their lack of improvement with conventional treatments & their remarkable improvements doing exactly what I had listed as being effective. Since none of the other panelists dares to suggest that any of these approaches were dangerous, they just tended to sit in stunned silence for the rest of the program.
That was more than 14 years ago & still the AMA is harassing out of practice those physicians who dare to offer these simple, safe, inexpensive & effective alternatives to the Allopathic Monopoly. If these things were only available by prescription, they would have been the "standard of practice" at least for the past 10 years.
You would be greatly benefitted by reading my book since it would help you integrate what you are learning with the many other complementary options now available. None of us are saying that glucosamine is the solution to arthritis. It is just an adjunctive treatment that is probably closer to helping the basic metabolic causes of this condition than ANY of the prescription items we MDs make so much money prescribing.
This is one reason I end so many of my communications with the saying: Walking in light is our only hope!"
Welcome to our BB.
Walt
In Reply to: Re: Glucosamine Sulfate Side Effects posted by BARBARA WEINBAUM on March 01, 1998 at 01:56:18:
Dear Barbara,
Most of those I know of have been done on animals & would be available from your vet. Veterinarians have used this stuff very successfully for a number of years.
Also, you could at least get a line on human studies by contacting Bastyr University at (206) 523-9585.
Let us know what you learn. If you have this question so must many others.
Walt
In Reply to: GlucosamineChondroitin posted by James Skinner on March 01, 1998 at 14:12:27:
Dear James,
So far as I know, there is no evidence that glucosamine can elevate blood sugar. The "glucose" is bound in such a way that it has no glucose effect.
You might try calling (800) 522-6382 and leaving a message for Jim Shaddle with this question. Let us know what you learn.
Walt
In Reply to: Re: cosamine-DS posted by Corinne Desmonde on March 01, 1998 at 15:40:02:
Dear Corinne,
Cosamine DS HAS glucosamine in it. However it is a combination of substances that are supposed to be cofactors in the action of glucosamine (whatever it is) and so one might get more benefits. I know of no substantive research indicating that it is worth the difference in cost.
Read the label for what all is in it.
Walt
In Reply to: Glucosamine Sulfate for Repairing Knee Torn Cartilage posted by Antonio Alvarez on March 01, 1998 at 21:55:09:
Dear Antonio,
I congratulate you on the excellent job of doing your homework before asking your questions!
You are right, I do not have much hope for your avoiding surgery. However, I have seen too many "spontaneous remissions" of chronic conditions--incurable by standard approaches--to say that this COULD not work.
HOWEVER, I would encourage you to look again at those search subjects about what to avoid to help this not become a bigger problem. Remember, the biggest reason for the surgery is to remove a piece of cartilege that gets pinched in the joint & causes pain and DAMAGE to the healthy bone surfaces--eventually causing arthritis which CANNOT be surgerized.
Untill this is resolved, the very last thing you should be doing is "squats", "knee bends" "walking"--as a matter of fact ANY weight bearing exercise. You need to plan on doing no more of that than you just have to do during every day activities. Ride when you can. Definitely use the elevator instead of the steps, etc. To keep up muscle strength, you should be enrolled in your community's under water exercise program and do it at least an hour 3 times a week. Once your cartilege has been removed, you might consider restarting weight bearing exercise in about 6-12 months IF you follow the rehab recommendations religiously.
In answer to your specific questions:
1. I have never heard os glucosamine repairing a torn cartilege. However, I have heard of spontaneous resolution beyond "scientific" explanation.
2. I have not heard that it made much difference when you took glucosamine but the daily dose should be 1500 mgm. Tapering up the dose is probably a good idea IF you have a sensitive stomach. Weeks.
5. Cosamine DS is a product that combines many of the synergistic substances with glucosamine. Ask your vet.
6. I may be showing my ignorance, here, but I thought that glucosamine was extracted from the shells of shellfish.
Walt
In Reply to: low back pain posted by Dan Markell on March 01, 1998 at 23:33:08:
Dear Dan,
There are a lot more factors here than would be resolved by glucosamine. At best, glucosamine would be better for you than NSAIDS but would still be of temporary benefit.
As I have said for many years: the resolution of chronic conditions like this will NEVER be from something you TAKE but by something you DO.
Use the search feature for this BB & read everything you can find about spinal conditions. You will begin to see WHY your problem has persisted & what options you have to resolve it. In the meantime, the glucosamine might even help. Just don't get fooled to think that it will be the solution to thie problem.
Once you have the above under your belt, if you still have questions, write again.
Walt
In Reply to: Glucosamine Sulfate for Repairing Knee Torn Cartilage posted by Antonio Alvarez on March 01, 1998 at 21:55:09:
I have had about a 95% success rate with problems exactly as you describe. The tibia is torqued externally and many times must be mobilized to correct the postion. However, you might try a couple of lifestyle changes and find success.
The "toes pointed out" position is the culprit. The most common places this seems to occur are sitting in the car, sitting in a recliner, and lying supine(on your back) in bed. While each one is not too bad alone the combination seems to have a significant effect. If the cartilage is truely torn(many times it isn't) then surgery seems to be in the future at some point.
Conciously keep your toes from pointing out(externally rotation the tibia) for about a week and see if you have less pain. If this doesn't "get rid" of the problem but helps you might find a chiropractor in your area who works with extremeties and would be familiar with what is called the "anterior media tibia" or "external tibia".
Good luck with all of it.
After taking 1 and 1/2 bottles of Glucosamine I started taking Chrondotine and developed a lot of eye itching so stopped taking either medicine. After several weeks, I took 1 or 2 capsules of Glucosamine and developed a severe allergic reaction. I went to the Emergency room and had a shot of Epenephrine on two different days.
In Reply to: Glucosamine Sulfate for Repairing Knee Torn Cartilage posted by Antonio Alvarez on March 01, 1998 at 21:55:09:
just read your post re torn cartilege. I had knee arthroscopy four days ago because of severe pain in my l knee due to torn cartilege and arthritis. i am 54 yrs old and in otherwise good health...you mentioned concern about having arthroscopy, well I had no pain after the first 8post-op hours, and on day 4 I am having some stiffness but walking about better than when i had pain. I do hope to try glucosamine to aid in repairing the old worn out cartilege...hope this helps you in your concern about not wanting an arthroscopy.
In Reply to: Re: tendonitis posted by Jim Taylor on March 05, 1998 at 11:14:43:
Dear Jim,
Naproxin is simply a symptom reducer and works like aspirin or any other NSAID (non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drug). It doesn't even do as much as glucosamine might do for this--so far as actually healing the problem.
I am sure that Doc Dave will have some suggestions for you. If you do not get a note from him in a few days, just write about your problem again & title it something with Doc Dave in the title (to draw his attention).
ALSO, consider that your injury is a common one. Why don't all those with this injury end up like you? You HAVE to have a certain susceptibility to this for it to have become chronic. The most likely would be total body "bracing". This cause, in turn, would make you susceptible to LGS. IF you had actually begun to have THAT, the leaking peptides would inevitably call the attention of your immune system to the injured areas & create the autoimmunological part of all arthritic conditions.
I know that your diagnosis is presently tendonitis. However, all of those structural "itises" have the same basic causes. Your "grinding" says that you already have arthritis in an early stage.
Once you become a student of your condition, you will better understand what I am saying & recommending.
At this stage, had I what you have, I would learn an effective skilled relaxation technique and practice it at least 20 minutes twice a day. This has been discussed many times right here on the BB. I would have a Rolfer see me in consultation. I would do whatever Doc Dave suggests.
I would also consider going to the link: Essential Oils. & glucosamine sulfate 1500 milligrams a day--realizing that they are not the solution to this probvlem but would help with the healing process while you DID deal with the causes. You would be surprised, however, how much relief you would get by combining the essential oils and the glucosamine.
As you get well, please share your experiences with us here on the BB. Others deserve to learn that strictly conventional treatments, to which you have been already exposed, RARELY resolve chronic conditions. Unfortunately, when they DO, all it does is direct your attention away from the susceptibilities that caused this to happen following your injury--and it (or something worse) will happen in the future.
If any of this is making any sense to you, and you have more questions, write again.
Walt
In Reply to: Re: Glucosamine Sulfate for Repairing Knee Torn Cartilage posted by Walt Stoll on March 03, 1998 at 13:12:36:
Dear Dr. Stoll:
This is to thank you for message of March 3. I want you to know that you have been the ONLY doctor (I saw a GP and 2 orthopedic surgeons) that warned me of the potential of my torn cartiladge problem becoming a bigger problem by my exercising (squats, knee bends and walking). I am VERY GRATEFUL to you for this. Effective as soon as I got your message I stopped the squats & knee bending and replaced them by non-weight bearing exercise. (I am sure going to miss walking when the weather gets better). My knees (both) do not hurt during routine daily activities but sometimes they feel "tight" and also click quite a bit.
I started the glucosamine sulfate on 03/03/98 with one 500 mg capsule. Next day I took 2 - 500 mg capsules and went the recommended 500 mg 3x/day dosage the following day. So far, I HAVE HAD NO SIDE EFFECTS.
I tried a couple of the Internet search engines to find info about the cosamine DS and I ended back in your site. I think I am going to stay with glucosamine sulfate alone, plus avoiding the exercises I was doing and keeping my toes straight (per Dr. David Ferguson).
I am going to give these changes 4 to 6 weeks to see if they helps any. If they do not help any I will probably have the arthroscopic surgery. My urgency on this is because although I never injured my right knee, it recently started to hurt a little bit. I think this may be due to using it a bit more than normal these past 2 years. I am also planning to retire this year and want to take care of this while I am employed.
By the way I really do not want to have the arthroscopic surgery because of the poor experience with it of 2 coworkers of mine (one 2 years ago and the other about 8 years ago) and both of them are in much worse shape than I am (even without surgery). They can not squat, or do knee bends. One of them even had to have a whole knee replaced 2 years later.
There is not a single copy of your book in any library in Allegheny County (which covers Pittsburgh & vecinities). I asked my local library to find a copy of it anywhere in the US (this is a free service). If they can not find it I will probably order your book special of 4 x $ 20.00 and distribute the other copies around here. Maybe even donate one to our library.
Again, thank you for your help. I really appreciate it. I wish I had been in touch with you a long time ago.
Antonio
In Reply to: Re: Glucosamine Sulfate for Repairing Knee Torn Cartilage posted by David Ferguson, D.C. on March 05, 1998 at 21:40:27:
Dear Dr. Ferguson
Thank you for your reply to my posting. Well, you hit 2 out of 3 on the "toes pointed out" problem. I did sleep on my back with both toes pointing out and drove with my left foot pointing out. Yesterday, when I received your reply, I started to keep my toes straight. I will let you know next week how I am doing.
By the way an MRI did show a torn cartilage in my left knee (I believe it was the medial meniscus), HOWEVER in another web site I saw that MRIs sometimes give false positives on people over 60. Could it be possible that it also gave a false positive in my case at age 58?.
Thank you very much for your help and interest.
Antonio
In Reply to: Re: Glucosamine Sulfate for Repairing Knee Torn Cartilage posted by harriet on March 06, 1998 at 18:13:13:
Harriet:
Thank you for your encouraging comments on your arthroscopic surgery. I hope you continue to do fine. I think I will give the glucosamine sulfate, plus a couple of life style changes, (see my reply to Dr Stoll of today) about 4 to 6 weeks. If I see an improvement I will continue with them, if not I will have the arthroscopic surgery.
I am interested in following up how you do. Maybe in 2 or 3 weeks I will send you an e-mail to see how you are coming along. You see, 2 coworkers of mine had the arthroscopic surgery of the knee (one 2 years ago and the other about 8 years ago) and both of them are in much worse shape than I am (even without surgery). That is why I was not looking forward to the arthroscopic surgery.
Good luck. Hope you recover fast.
Antonio
In Reply to: Re: Glucosamine Sulfate for Repairing Knee Torn Cartilage posted by Antonio Alvarez on March 07, 1998 at 21:39:05:
Antonio, I just read your response to Dr Stoll..what i did not say in my last post to you is that I have also been told that a total joint replacement for my knee is almost inevitable.. this did not sound good to my ears, but if you get enough knee pain as i had a few weeks ago, You really won't care what has to be done..the arthroscopy is supposed to buy me some time. i will be happy to keep you posted. I did some searching for more information and found some traditional but helpful and informative answers via the ameriscan academy of orthopedic surgeons on the web, also try www.rothmaninstitute.com, the one thing that I know can help is to strengthen your quadriceps muscles ...... leg lifts with very low weight, many reps. email me whenever you like. good luck
In Reply to: Re: Glucosamine Sulfate for Repairing Knee Torn Cartilage posted by Antonio Alvarez on March 07, 1998 at 21:46:28:
The false positives apply to everyone but get more likely as we get older. 58 ain't that old ;-) but it's old enough to have significant degeration which makes the MRI more difficult to read. 40% of the population without back pain has a buldging disc on MRI. MRI is a great diagnostic tool but more than one tool is needed to make a correct diagnosis. And a correct diagnosis is necessary before anyone even thinks about cutting someone open.
Try the conservative approaches first if the knee is not getting worse. If my suggestions help but don't completely do the trick it would be advisable to see a chiropractor who does extremity work for an evaluation. Of the approx. 30 people I have had within the last year who had similar symptoms I found one with a torn meniscus that required surgery and 1 that did not respond to my treatmet. The rest are very happy.
In Reply to: Re: Glucosamine Sulfate for Repairing Knee Torn Cartilage posted by harriet on March 08, 1998 at 10:54:26:
I was sorry to hear about your prognosis of needing total knee replacement. Check with your doctors and Dr. Stoll. Maybe if you take glucosamine sulfate or something similar and do your re-hab + other exercises maybe you will not have to go thru your whole knee replacement. If you take the diagnosis of future knee replacement as certain you will really need it. Fight it out, both physically (exercises & supplements) and mentally!!!
I took a quick look at the Rothman Institute web site and looks real good. If you know of other good internet medical-related places let us know.
Antonio
I am concern with bovine spongiform encephalopathy (BSE) transmission by drugs. Are glucosamine and chondroitin sulphate produced from bovine tissues ?
Does glucosamine have any affect on blood-glucose levels?
Hi,
My dog Oreo was struck by a car when she was 6 months old. She has a pin in one of her back legs. Both of her back legs are really in bad shape. She is 12 now. About two years ago I put her on Ester C to help with the pain and stiffness. It made a world of difference but now she is once again in a lot of pain. People who don't know her don't know she is 12 because she's got the spirit of a two year old. I want to help her but the vets can't seem to do anything. I have heard a little about glucosomine, but not much. Would you suggest it for her. She is a 55 pound black lab, blue heeler cross. If so, in what doses and should I also include anything else? Any help you can give me would be wonderful.
Thank you,
Misty and Oreo
Walt,
Curious about what your book is about. I am recommending
glucosamine chondroitin to my father in law,70, who has congestive
heart failure and diabetes. He has osteo-arthritis in his
knee and is in constant pain. He cannot have an operation.
The Dr.s will not put him under because of his heart. Is your
permanent cure something for him? Thank you. Janis
In Reply to: chondroitin sulpfate posted by Andre on March 09, 1998 at 11:12:41:
Dear Andre,
Since no one yet knows, for sure, how this "organism" is transmitted no one knows, for sure, the answer to your question. Within the past month, educational TV had a wonderful 1 hour program bringing right up to date what IS known about this "prion" transmission. Apparently the cattlemen in Texas never saw it (grin).
From what I know, I think your concerns are valid. Were it me, I would avoid ANYTHING coming from a warm-blooded animal source till this is worked out.
To MY knowledge, the glucosamine comes from the shells of sea creatures & would not fit this description. However, the chondroitin probably comes from chickens, pigs or beef since that is the most common resource in THIS country.
I am open to being educated about this.
Walt
In Reply to: arthritis in dogs posted by Misty Weitzel on March 10, 1998 at 06:10:56:
Dear Misty & Oreo,
Listen to Doc Dave.
ALSO, I had a similar problem with my Airdale (Shakti) about 10 years ago and a vet acupuncturist came to my house & cured her on the spot. I had had her from 8 weeks & she died on her 14th birthday. She lived about 8 years after that & never had another problem with arthritis. She had so completely stopped using her left back leg that it had atrophied to less than half its size due to disuse. Everything came back.
I would bet that the altvet website could direct you to the closest vet trained in acupuncture.
There would be no harm in trying the glucosamine sulfate. Vets have used it in cases like this for many years. I know the doses for humans this size but not for dogs.
I am a dog person too. I had to put Shakti down 2 years ago and, finally, when I had gotten over "replacing" her--something that would be unfair to any new companion--we got our present "sweetie" a 90 pound black Lab named Sheba.
Good luck from Walt & Sheba.
In Reply to: Re: Glucosamine Sulfate posted by Janis on March 10, 1998 at 16:23:58:
Dear Janis,
Only God has a permanent cure for what your father-in-law has. However, my book is about educating the reader about things the conventional monopoly doesn't take the time to tell them that they could do to help themselves.
At the very least, the information in my book would give him the opportunity to greatly improve the quality of the rest of his life. At the best, he could resolve many of his problems presently considered conventionally incurable.
However, HE is the one who has to learn this stuff, The problem is NOT that these approaches do not work, it is that the individual has to take responsibility for doing something. We MDs, in continuing to support our monopoly in this country have had more than 100 years to brainwash the public into thinking that WE were the ultimate authority & that people should just pay us to do all their thinking for them. This is the main reason we now have a "disease-care crisis" in the USA.
I am sure that you can tell that you have pushed my "buttons" about this. Thanks for letting me use your note as an excuse to ventilate it again to the BB.
Walt
In Reply to: Re: Glucosamine Sulfate Side Effects posted by BARBARA WEINBAUM on March 01, 1998 at 01:56:18:
I took glucosamine sulfate for about 6 weeks and noted a significant reduction in my arthritic symptoms. For example, my ankle "catches" when I use the clutch of my car. I did not experience this at all for about 3 weeks, but it did return when I stopped taking glucosamine/chondroitin supplements. I decided to hold off on taking more until I learn more about the side effects.
In Reply to: Re: Glucosamine Sulfate for Repairing Knee Torn Cartilage posted by Antonio Alvarez on March 07, 1998 at 21:39:05:
Dear Drs Stoll & Ferguson:
It has been about a week since both of your replied to my posting. This is to give you an update on my condition.
Dr. Stoll, I have been on glucosamine sulfate, on a full 1500 mg/day dosage, since 03/05/98. So far, no side effects ... I think. So far no appreciable improvement either. I will give you a follow-up on this in a couple of weeks.
Dr. Ferguson, your suggestion of suggestion of toes straight might be helping a bit but not too much so far. (Maybe less clicking in the knees).
I did make an appointment with a chiropractor. I selected one from the yellow pages that had an ad " specializing .... in shoulder & knee pain...arthritis". He was the only one in the phone book of Pittsburgh & vicinities in which the word "knee" was mentioned. I called him (he came to the phone) and told me he did the anterior media tibia, external tibia and extremity work. There were several chiropractors specializing in sports injuries, which I would have called if the first one did not do extremity work.
This is what he did (I would appreciate your comments regarding if he is in the right track and/or if he should be doing anything else and/or if I should find someone else):
1. Passed about 10-15 minutes of "interferential current" to each knee. (I told him that my "good knee" was also starting to hurt).
2. He passed about 10 minutes of ultrasound in the bad knee only.
3. He did a full range of motion test on each knee. He said that my torn cartilage must be very small because I had no pain to any of the movements he did to my knee. He said that most of his patients with torn cartilages had a good amount of pain when he does this test. I told him that my main pain was in going up steps, small going down.
4. He manipulated (pulled and pushed) my legs. I had no pain in any of this.
5. He manipulated a vertebrae that he said had nerves that supply impulse (or blood?) to the lower leg (vertebrae L5 in a picture he gave me).
6. He suggested I do 100 leg lifting/day to strengthen the quadriceps muscles. Also 30 minutes worth of stationary bike with no tension (resistance).
He looked at X-rays of my knees, taken by one of the orthopedic surgeons in January, and he said that they are clear with no problems in them.
I will be back for weekly treatments (do you think weekly treatments initially are OFTEN enough?) during the first month and less often later. He said that I should see changes in 2 or 3 weeks.
He thinks the prognosis is good (the good knee should be no problem and the bad one should recover).
Again, I will appreciate any comments from both of you or anyone else seeing this posting. Thank you, again, for your help.
Antonio Alvarez
In Reply to: Re: Glucosamine Sulfate for Repairing Knee Torn Cartilage posted by Antonio Alvarez on March 13, 1998 at 22:14:21:
Sounds like you are on the road to recovery. The main thing he should be doing is correcting the knee misalignment. Once a week is usually enough for knee problems but rarely enough for acute back or neck problems. The knee is a very uncomplicated joint in comparison to the spine. When he is correcting the misalignment of your knee(if it's an externally rotated tibia) is a movement that would be turning that tibia internally(toes in). Also 2-3 weeks sounds about right. DO NOT DO THE EXCERCISES IF YOUR KNEE IS HURTING. He may correct it and you turn right around and misalign it again and proceed to excercise it and create more inflammation. Light excercise is good if things are "lined up".
Keep us updated.
In Reply to: Re: Glucosamine Sulfate Side Effects posted by Brian Mickelson, RN on March 11, 1998 at 13:22:36:
I feel light-headed and have a headache when i take the
glucosamine and chondritin tablets. Why is this. Is there any more research done on this?
In Reply to: Re: Glucosamine Sulfate Side Effects posted by sharon valdez on March 13, 1998 at 02:53:01:
Dear Sharon,
Thanks for the testimonial. I hope you will remember that "The resolution of chronic problems like arthritis will never be something you TAKE but something you DO."
I have been trying to get this point across for 20 years.
Glucosamine improves symptoms in the healthiest way that has yet been discovered. However, arthritis is not a glucosamine deficiency disease. Until you decide to learn WHY you have what you have & do something about the causes, the problem will inevitably return no matter how long you take the glucosamine.
Walt
Dr. Stoll,
My friend has Rhemetoid Arthritis and is taking Methodextrate and Prednisone and sometimes naprosyn.
Can she also take Glucosamine and Chondritin?
Judy
In Reply to: Re: Glucosamine Sulfate for Repairing Knee Torn Cartilage posted by Antonio Alvarez on March 13, 1998 at 22:14:21:
Dear Antonio,
Sounds like he knows what he is doing. However, I am no Chiropractor & we were discouraged from learning any of this when I was in medical school. Doc Dave is the only one who could comment on your questions. If he doesn't notice your note in a few days, send it again with his name in the title so he will see it.
I will look forward to learning from you both.
Walt
In Reply to: Re: Glucosamine Sulfate Side Effects posted by Brian Mickelson, RN on March 11, 1998 at 13:22:36:
After taking the first pill, I was dizzy most of the day after. I also take synthroid,Voltarin and Amitriptiline.
Are there contraindications for taking Cosamine and Tamoxifen. The patient had a meniscus operation 15 years ago and 2 years ago a mastectomy and chemotherapy and now tamoxifen. Her knee is causing her a lot of pain and she has heard that cosamine can help but is worried if it affects the tamoxifen or vice versa.
In Reply to: Rhemetoid - Predisone/Methodextrate and Glucosamine and Chondritin posted by Judy on March 15, 1998 at 11:28:30:
Dear Judy,
I know of no reason why not. However, at best the glucosamine would be of temporary benefit at best.
When you think she is ready to get rid of the problem, have her use the search feature provided with this BB (possibly in the archives already) & read everything she can find on the subject AND everything Robert has written on the subject. The search feature can find authors too.
THEN, if she has more questions, have her place them here on the BB.
Walt
In Reply to: Cosamine DS and Tamoxifen posted by Sue Gilad on March 16, 1998 at 00:34:09:
Dear Sue,
I do not know. I doubt that there would be any negative interaction with two such dissimilar substances. However, she could find out by contacting the manufacturer of Cosamine and the producer of Tamoxifen. Also, if she (or you) has a friendly pharmacist s/he could look it up for you.
HOWEVER, having said that, I would urge ANYONE with this combination to learn the underlying causes that contribute to both conditions. The same things that would improve one would also improve the other. This would require the patient to become an expert in her overall condition.
Toward that end I would recommend (in this order) reading a copy of my book (link below) and then, if she wanted to understand the interrelationships at a deeper level, reading "Mind as Healer, Mind as Slayer" by Dr Pelletier also referenced in the back of my book. My book would serve as an easy introduction to the concepts ANN does a lot better job of helping her see what she could actually DO. Pelletier's book goes deeper into the interrelating causes.
THEN, if she has more questions, I hope she can post them here on the BB. Although YOUR understanding this would be helpful in general, to all your patients, SHE is the one who has to understand this stuff.
It is not a case of whether it works but whether the patient is willing (or able) to dedicate themselves to learning.
Walt
Dear Dr. Stoll I was wondering if you could email me more information about this drug. I have two grandmothers that suffer from chronic joint pain and was wondering if they could take it. I have only heard good things about this product but was wondering what are the side effects if any.
thank you
jason alexander
In Reply to: Re: Glucosamine Sulfate Side Effects posted by Brian Mickelson, RN on March 11, 1998 at 13:22:36:
i take 500 mg of gluclosamine and also take toparal for
high blood pressure.are ther any side effects to be concerned about????
In Reply to: Re: chondroitin sulpfate posted by Walt Stoll on March 11, 1998 at 13:37:03:
Dr Stoll
A company here in Australia markets shark cartilage and claims that it contains naturally occurring glucosamine and chondroitin sulfates. I take it, along with other things, for OA of the hip.
Regards
Rory
In Reply to: Re: Glucosamine Sulfate Side Effects posted by Walt Stoll on March 12, 1998 at 11:16:06:
I had taken over 1 bottle of Glucosamine when I decided to add Chondrotin also. After taking 1 a day of both for about a week my eyes started itching and my eyelids got red, maybe from rubbing them. I took no more of either for 2 or 3 weeks and decided to try just the Glucosamin again. I took either 1 or 2 capsuls and had a severe reaction.
I went to the emergency room twice and had a shot of Epenephrine, also took several other medicines for 6 days. My hives were terrible and my mouth swelled up. OK now
In Reply to: Glucosamine Sulfate side effects posted by Jason Alexander on March 18, 1998 at 15:58:10:
I have a similar question. I started taking glucosamine chondroitin two days ago. Since that time I have been feeling "wierd." This includes a really bad headache, lightheaded, and very tired. I'm wondering if these feelings are related to the Glucosamine?
I just bought some Glucosamine Chondroitin and am preparing
to start taking it for my knees. Would it be OK to take them
if I'm on blood pressure medication?
Also, my brother has a pet shop & he sells Arthramine Joint
Support medicine for dogs which is used for joint problems.
It contains bromelain, feverfew, Glucosamine(HCI), Quercetin, base of liver(beef), brewers yeast & rice bran.
This might be what the lady on TV got from her vet, which
she took. Know anything about this medicine? Can humans
take this? Thanks, Gus
In Reply to: Re: Glucosamine Sulfate Side Effects posted by Rosanne Carter on March 19, 1998 at 12:03:27:
Dear Rosanne,
Thanks for your note!
Sometimes it takes a combination of stuff to trigger a sensitivity to anything. Had you not added the chondroitin, this MIGHT never have happened (no guarantee). However, now that the sensitivity is established, it would be dangerous for you to take it again.
HOWEVER, this experience tells me that you likely have the LGS that is the most common cause of arthritic conditions. At best, your glucosamine would have given you temporary benefits.
Consider using the search feature for this BB & read everything you can find about glucosamine side-effects.
Walt
In Reply to: Re: Anyone have any ideas for CHRONIC HIVES posted by dp on March 23, 1998 at 14:01:07:
let me also add that for the past month or so i've been using l-glutamine and glucosamine to help repair the intestinal wall and it really seems to help.
In Reply to: Re: Glucosamine Sulfate side effects posted by Nancy on March 19, 1998 at 14:47:32:
Hi, this is Don. Has anyone experienced "foul and growly" lower intestinal responses to Glucosamine/Chondroitin pills?!! We're talking REAL foul!! I'll be interested to hear from others. You can remain anonamous,...with this problem you'll want to!!!!!!
I was wondering if anyone knew if glucosamine sulfate or any type of glucosamine passes through the liver.
thanks
In Reply to: Re: Glucosamine Sulfate side effects posted by Don Kenney on March 25, 1998 at 15:04:59:
Dear Don,
Apparently this depends almost exclusively on the manufacturer. Use the search feature & archives to find the post that told of which producers do not cause this side-effect. It was within the past 6 months.
Please remind the rest of us who that was.
Walt
Dear Dr Stoll;
I would be interested to know which brand of glucosamine and chondroitine sulfate available in Canada seems to be working best. It would be useful to know haw the quality of ther product can be determined. The product really is what its label clamis it to be.
Thank you,
Regards,
AB.
Can you tell me if you know of any studies that are being done about the effects of this combination with other prescription medications such as coumadin? As far as I am aware there are no completed clinical studies at this time but as I work in a pharmacy, I am getting questions of this nature. Thank you.
In Reply to: glucosamine sulfate posted by adam kemp on March 27, 1998 at 00:15:01:
Dear Adam,
Yes.
Walt
In Reply to: glucosamine/chondroitine sulf. posted by Andre Biel on March 27, 1998 at 15:36:04:
Dear Andre,
I did not keep the information about the best manufacturer (as I probably should have). However, it is in the archives and you can find it.
UNFORTUNATELY, we can lay this varied quality on the market at the feet of the AMA. They have doing all they can, over the past 100 years, to lable everything but what they say as quackery. As a consequence, nothing but conventional medicine is taken seriously & so there is not enough standardization and quality control regulation with products like this as there should be: "everything is quackery so why bother".
Walt
In Reply to: glucosamine sulfate & Chondroitin posted by s. easton on March 27, 1998 at 22:08:30:
Dear s.,
I know of none but thee must be some at least in the Veterinarian literature. I would start by calling my vet.
You should also get good information by contacting the manufacturers & telling them of your position & interest.
Let us know what you learn.
Walt
In Reply to: Re: glucosamine sulfate & Chondroitin posted by Walt Stoll on March 28, 1998 at 13:13:06:
dear Doctor,
As a physical therapist, I get many questions re: the use of glucosamine in DJD. Most recently I was asked if there is evidence reporting lung "damage" with glucosamine use.
I will appreciate any input you may provide.
Thank you.
Dr. Stoll,
My father would like information on where he can obtain Chicken cartilage. We have searched the net, and can't find a source. Would you please help us.
Sincerely,
Ken Findley
In Reply to: Re: glucosamine sulfate & Chondroitin posted by e viers on March 28, 1998 at 13:38:29:
Dear e.,
I know of none. However to be sure, I would contact the manufacturer AND go to my veterinarian & ask the same question. Vets have used this stuff for years.
Walt
In Reply to: Re: Chicken cartilage for knee pain posted by Ken Findley on March 28, 1998 at 14:23:50:
Dear Ken,
I have no idea even if this is one of the sources of chondroitin sulfate. Besides, I have yet to see convincing evidence that the oral chondroitin does anything.
I would go to my healthfood store and talk to the Naturopath who runs it.
Walt
Dear Barbara,
Cortisone, at best, gives temporary relief of symptoms for this condition (orally or by injection). At worst, while relieving symptoms, it actually increases the long term damage. Make those docs using this explain this to you in depth. if they will not, you are going to the wrong docs & will have to go to the library and become an expert in your own right. Without knowing more, it seems that this might have already progressed so far that surgery will eventually be needed. However during the growth phase, there is the possibility that, dealing with causes could still produce miracles.
If I knew the part of the country you were from, perhaps I could personally recommend a competent and advanced physician to guide her individually. If she were mine, that is who I would find.
No one would deny that this was an autoimmune condition. The purpose of the cortisone is to dull that reaction process. Since LGS is the most common (and potent) cause of this kind of autoimmune problem-----------
Walt
walt thank you for your re we live in australia inthe back of beond hard to find dr that dont want to find cures they just like to use you as a guinepig but thats probly because they dont know but when you see a beaut girls life distroyed it herts so much i do read heaps and get the knoledge ican she has been on
all health tablets for vitamins for diff but they couldt even diagnose her 3 years ago when she first got very ill i just feel scered of taking the wrong road with these drugs i have started her on glucos/chondroitin would you use cortisone on your child?
Barbara
In Reply to: Re: Glucosanmine Chondroitin posted by walt stoll on March 01, 1998 at 14:44:28:
Dear Barbara,
I might use the cortisone in a life threatening situation. However, that is a short term use. There is little, if any, risk to that. The problem comes when cortisone is used for months, or even years--or even intermittantly many times.
The problem is that the conventional doc (allopath) has been taught a fatally simplistic way of thinking about chronic conditions. That means that they do not KNOW how to manage chronic conditions. Since suppressing the symptoms is all we are taught, is it any wonder that patients are not told of all of their options?
What a wonderful place to live!
Walt
My 12 years old daughter was just diagnosed with Chrondomalacia in both knees. She has never been very athletic and had no injuries. The only thing we can think of that may have caused the condition is that fact that she has not been in very good physical condition due to a severe anxiety disorder which interferes with her eating. Then, with starting the more strenuous activities in PE at Junior High, maybe it was too much for her.
Anyway, I feel like I am getting the run around from the doctor. She gave us some neoprene knee supports, told her to take Aleve 2x a day and asked a physical therapist to set up a home program for her. My daughter is in so much pain she has fallen and nearly fallen numerous times because her knees cannot support her weight. I called the office today and was told to have her ice her knees. I thought this only helped during the first few days of the injury. She has pain that has gotten increasingly worse since November 1996.
Any suggestions on what to do? Everything she does seems to cause pain and I fell so bad for her. She wants to do Irish Step Dancing and Scottish dancing, but can barely walk most of the time. I am very concerened that she is going to get hurt when she falls.
In Reply to: Chrondomalacia posted by Sandy Harrison on March 19, 1998 at 23:33:23:
Find a chiropractor in your area who deals with extremities.
Chondromalacia patella is usually a result of incorrect "tracking" of the patella. This is due to minor misalignments of the tibia in relation to the femur. I don't know how to explain it in basic terms but here goes my best.
The tendon from the quadraceps muscles attaches to the superior part of the patella and a ligament from the bottom of the patella attaches to the tibia on the tibial tuberosity(that bump below your knee cap). When a knee bends and straightens the patella must run in a groove that exists underneath it. If the lower leg(tibia primarily) is rotated this will cause the patella to track incorrectly and cause abnormal wear of the cartilage underneath(thats where the grinding sound comes from). The patella rubs on one side of the track more than the other.
It sounds as though you daughter is quite advanced into this problem thus making correction more difficult due to the amount of damage already done. Chiropractic and glucosamine sulfate would be your best bet at this point.
I had a 15 year old gymnast just last week with this very problem(not quite as bad) in one knee. They had been "everywhere" also. I corrected the misalignment and showed here how to minimize re-misaligning it and told her to come back in a week. This was on last Mon. This Mon. she returned and reported that she felt no pain Mon-Sat but had some on Sun and that day. We corrected things again and I expect here to make the full week without pain(she is still in gymnastics class). I hope to have it stabalized and on a once/two month maintence basis by April 1.
This was the first time she had gone without pain in months and needless to say they were quite pleased. Hopefully in sharing this with you it will give you some ideas about correcting the cause of the problem and not just trying to get rid of the symptoms.
In looking for a chiropractor you will want to find someone who is familiar with what is called an external tibia AKA: anterior medial tibia. It is the cause of many, many knee problems and should be familiar to any chiropractor who deals with knees. Don't be afraid to call around and talk directly to the Dr.
The glucosamine sulfate will help the healing time of the cartilage once the knee is realigned.
The P.T. probably gave you some exercises to strengthen the quadraceps(front thigh) muscles. This rarely helps. The only time it does much is if extensive strengthening of the vastus medialis(one of the QUADraceps muscles) occurs. This can pull the patella more across the middle of the groove and result is some relief. It's completely illogical as abnormal strengthening of any muscle group is not normal for a person. Looking at the cause of the problem should be the primary concern. The ice is correct as it will help reduce the inflammation but is of no corrective value, obviously.
Hope you at least try this route. Let us know how things go and if you have anything you want me to elaborate on or have any questions feel free to post them.
In Reply to: Chrondomalacia posted by Sandy Harrison on March 19, 1998 at 23:33:23:
Dear Sandy,
How much does your daughter weigh?
Other than that question, Listen to Doc Dave.
The advice you are presently getting from your conventional doc si superficial symptom supression at best. Mainly, they are just getting you off the phone.
Walt