Candida Archives

Candida Curable Only in Apathogenic Form

[ Candida Archive ]
[ Main Archives Page ] [ Glossary/Index ]
[ FAQ ] [ Recommended Books ] [ Bulletin Board ]
   Search this site!
 
        

Candida Curable Only in Apathogenic Form

Posted by
Bernice on May 10, 1999 at 13:38:36:

Hi Dr. Stoll,

The following webpage has a fascinating article about candida:

http://www.explorepub.com/articles/darkfield.html

What it says basically, is that candida, when attacked by strong anti-fungal pharmaceuticals (like Nystatin, Sporanox, etc.) mutates into other forms that are resistant to those drugs. The author, Michael Coyle, says that when the candida fungus becomes pathogenic (mycellial, with long tentacles), it can escape into all the body's tissues and hide until the offending substance (like Nystatin, etc.) is no longer present.

That seems to be why candida is so confoundedly difficult to get rid of, even by natural practitioners, who at least acknowledge its presence. The author believes that a better way to attack candida is with the use of strong homeopathic apathogenic candida substrates, which then mate with the pathogenic candida, and overcome the pathogenic strain with apathogenic candida.

This seems to be a brilliant understanding of this fungus.

Dr. Stoll, what do you think? Do you think that this is why most anti-candida treatments are failures?

Thank you!

Bernice



Re: Candida Curable Only in Apathogenic Form

Posted by
Cheryl on May 10, 1999 at 17:05:21:

In Reply to: Candida Curable Only in Apathogenic Form posted by Bernice on May 10, 1999 at 13:38:36:

How do they recommend you cure candida? Cheryl



Re: Candida Curable Only in Apathogenic Form

Posted by Johnelle on May 10, 1999 at 17:47:44:

In Reply to: Candida Curable Only in Apathogenic Form posted by Bernice on May 10, 1999 at 13:38:36:

Bernice,

Thank you for a very informative article. You obviously
know much more than I do to have come up with your
interpretation of it. I have read it completely two times.
I am very interested to get Walt and Bob to share their
opinions about this article. It certainly sounds like the
author knows something! I don't want to overlook anything
in the treatment of candida I am undertaking. It was
discouraging (and tiring!) to think I need to do MORE, but I
definitely want to if I need to!




Re: Candida Curable Only in Apathogenic Form

Posted by
Robert McFerran on May 10, 1999 at 19:09:54:

In Reply to: Re: Candida Curable Only in Apathogenic Form posted by Johnelle on May 10, 1999 at 17:47:44:

Hi Johnelle,

I'm afraid I'm going to have to take a bah-humbug attitude to this article. The author runs fast and loose with the facts (some are true, many are not). He takes the abilities of darkfield microscopy WAY BEYOND what I believe that it really shows.

While I agree with him that the ONLY way to deal with candida over the long term is the regain immunity. We part company when trying to determine how. I strongly believe that you have to reverse the things that led you to the point where your immunity became compromised enough to let candida flourish. The thing that led to the loss of immunity is leaky gut syndrome. A diet mismatched to inherited metabolism and chronic hypothallamic overload (and subsequent loss of blood flow to the gut) are the major precursors of leaky gut.

The author suggests that diet plays a part but also suggests that homeopathic remedies are the solution. In my experience I've NEVER seen the use of homeopathic remedies in resolving a raging case of candidiasis.

The author IS correct with one very important point. The rate of relapse is very, very high with the methods used by most of the allopathic and alternative community.

Bob



Bowel Transit Time

Posted by
Mary Jackson on May 11, 1999 at 10:05:24:

In Reply to: Re: Candida Curable Only in Apathogenic Form posted by Cheryl on May 10, 1999 at 17:05:21:

Hi Walt,

You mentioned bowel transit time once. This would seem to factor into candida. From what I can tell potassium loss via kidneys or intestines would slow down the transit since potassium is involved in "adynamic ileus" when the bowels aren't working. If a person is dumping potassium taking more of it will just cause more to be dumped?
Chlorinated water would affect transit by knocking off the good bacteria that helps with digestion, so that the food is left to do more putrefaction. This was discussed on some lists I'm on. I read in Detox by Phyllis Saifer, M.D. that sugar and refined foods such as white flour take four times longer to pass through the bowels as raw fruits and vegetables. Meats leave small residues from what I understand. If anyone could elaborate further on any of this I would appreciate it. Hypothyroidism slows transit (and there can be blood volume reduction) and adrenal problems would slow transit too, because stomach acid is reduced in that case. I tend to look at things from a literal biochemical standpoint with food and such and try to adjust things that way, but I understand how relaxation alters the picture as well. Excess cortisol figures into the hypothyroidism. I read the Broda Barnes Hypothyroidism the Unsuspected Illness for these ideas on hypothyroidism.
I personally would like to "optimalize" without the meat.
Mary J.



Bowel Enlargement

Posted by
Mary Jackson on May 11, 1999 at 10:58:42:

In Reply to: Bowel Transit Time posted by Mary Jackson on May 11, 1999 at 10:05:24:

P.S. I just went to my e-mail and a person on my intestinal health list was discussing intestinal problems. She mentioned a boy with constipation and bowel enlargement (another aspect of bowel transit) being treated in another country with a sodium picolinate laxative for six months which brought his colon back to normal size. There is a hospital version of a colonics machine called PIE that was used to normalize the size of a child's intestines in 24 treatments (3 times a week for 8 weeks). I'm thinking about trying to get my diabetic daughter's and my intestines ultrasounded. Mary J.



Re: Candida Curable Only in Apathogenic Form (Not true. Archive under Candida)

Posted by Walt Stoll on May 11, 1999 at 11:17:08:

In Reply to: Candida Curable Only in Apathogenic Form posted by Bernice on May 10, 1999 at 13:38:36:

Hi, Bernice.

There is some truth to this. This form is also called "incomplete cell wall form" & several orther names. I went through this phase of understanding about 15 years ago when we had our own darkfield microscopy setup with cameras, etc. Our setup was called the "LIVCELL Machine". It soon became obvious (after several years) that MOST of the reason for the difficulty with treatment & recurrence had to do with not dealing with the LGS and NOT with not recognizing the systemic form.

This doc will not be saying this in about 10 years; sooner if he has no stock in selling something that depends on this interpretation.

We are ALL soaked in candida yeasts (the "seed" form of candida) every second of our lives. The only reason we do not all have that seed "sprout" inside us is that our normal intestinal ecology protects us. The yeast form is the seed and the "fungal form" (with the mycelia "roots") is the vegetative form. Just like an apple seed and the apple tree that grows from it.

So long as the environment is conducive to the "seed" sprouting, there will continue to be "plants" (vegetative form) growing where there are seeds.

I don't care how effectively anyone eliminates the form he speaks of. Unless the susceptibility factors are dealt with (no more LGS) the problem will continue to recur.

This doc has a piece of the truth but has a lot further to go.

I just have a few more pieces than he has right now; perhaps because I had to go through this phase of understanding many years ago. At least he is on the right track. Now, if he just doesn't think he has "the answer" he will keep looking too.

Questions?

Walt



Re: Candida Curable Only in Apathogenic Form

Posted by Walt Stoll on May 11, 1999 at 11:37:23:

In Reply to: Re: Candida Curable Only in Apathogenic Form posted by Robert McFerran on May 10, 1999 at 19:09:54:

Hi, Bob.

Sure glad to see you weigh in here. I agree with your position (see my note about this today).

"Been there, done that."

Namaste` Walt



Re: Candida Curable Only in Apathogenic Form (Not true. Archive under Candida)

Posted by
Bernice on May 11, 1999 at 12:20:09:

In Reply to: Re: Candida Curable Only in Apathogenic Form (Not true. Archive under Candida) posted by Walt Stoll on May 11, 1999 at 11:17:08:

Hi Dr. Stoll,

Thank you SO MUCH for your clarification of this issue, and all the years you've spent in really understanding it. It will save ME much time and effort, thank you.

I have a few more questions about my personal LGS/candida situation.

Background: Took strong antibiotic for 2 periods of 3 weeks each in 1997-1998. I was diagnosed with candida in Sept. 1998, but my M.D. didn't clue me in to Leaky Gut. (I'm not sure he GETS IT.) I was the one who asked for the Permeability Test from GSDL, and it came back affirmative (leaky), but not grossly so.

Current therapies:

1) I am doing SR 2x/day (feels marvelous; have noticed MUCH difference in consciousness from doing it regularly).

2) Strict anti-candida diet (bored to tears on it).

3) Also, I am continuing with a multitude of supplements, primarily for the purposes of a) killing as much candida as I can (because my symptom, arthralgias, gets noticeably worse a few days after I eat candida-feeding foods), and b)rebuilding my intestinal mucosa. Current supplements:

glutamine
superstrength oil of oregano
undecenoic acid
colostrum
deglycerrhized licorice
acidophilus
FOS
digestive enzymes
anti-oxidants
intestinal permeability factors

and some which I've forgotten from this list!

So, my question is: I am getting REALLY FRUSTRATED with how long this is taking (almost 9 months!), and I feel that THERE JUST HAS TO BE SOMETHING ELSE WHICH SHOULD BE HELPING ME TO GET BETTER FASTER.

Is there anything else, in addition to SR/food allergy avoidance/anti-candida diet/supplements that I can do? Will eradicating prodigious amounts of candida in my body help my LGS to heal faster? Should I just accept that it will take a long time? What mindset do you suggest?

I look forward to your response, and I

Thank you very much!

Bernice





I didn't see any anti-fungals listed...

Posted by
trish on May 11, 1999 at 15:20:28:

In Reply to: Re: Candida Curable Only in Apathogenic Form (Not true. Archive under Candida) posted by Bernice on May 11, 1999 at 12:20:09:

I am under the impression that it's REALLY REALLY hard, if not impossible, to get rid of candida without the use of antifungals...

Of course, I could be wrong!

be well,
trish



Re: I didn't see any anti-fungals listed...

Posted by
Bernice on May 11, 1999 at 15:46:05:

In Reply to: I didn't see any anti-fungals listed... posted by trish on May 11, 1999 at 15:20:28:

Hi Trish.

The undecenoic acid (from castor oil beans) and superstrength oil of oregano are both powerful natural anti-fungals.

Bernice



Re: I didn't see any anti-fungals listed...

Posted by
Robert McFerran on May 11, 1999 at 16:02:53:

In Reply to: Re: I didn't see any anti-fungals listed... posted by Bernice on May 11, 1999 at 15:46:05:

Bernice,

Trish is right. While some folks can effectively use the natural antifungals my experience has been that the great majority require PRESCRIPTION antifungals.

Here we see the war between the alternative medicine providers and the allopaths at it's worst. Unfortunately since your alternative medicine practicioner has too big a chip on his shoulder to 'fess up' to the fact that the natural antifungals may be insufficient to do the job and refer you to an allopath that will prescribe nystatin powder you've been forced to suffer needlessly.

I also noted that you are on an 'anti-candida' diet. Remember that the BEST anti-candida diet is one that is EXCLUSIVELY whole foods, without your individual food allergens and one that matches your inherited metabolism. I get the impression that your doc is prescribing a one diet fits all for his patients with candida. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Bob

Bob



Re: I didn't see any anti-fungals listed...

Posted by
Bernice on May 11, 1999 at 16:20:25:

In Reply to: Re: I didn't see any anti-fungals listed... posted by Robert McFerran on May 11, 1999 at 16:02:53:

Hi Bob.

Thanks much for responding!

My doctor DID have me on Sporanox for 4 months. I then had another Comprehensive Stool Analysis through GSDL, which showed no candida. Three months later, it was back, and very high! (And still on the anti-candida diet.)

I'm assuming that my LGS is the culprit.

Also, I HAVE BEEN on a 100% whole foods diet now since June, 1998, and found out my allergic foods in July, 1998, which I avoided, and am no longer allergic to (was retested).

This is why I am so intent on healing my LGS.

Thanks for your comments and help.

Sincerely,

Bernice



So glad to benefit from your knowledge, Walt & Bob

Posted by Johnelle on May 11, 1999 at 22:30:25:

In Reply to: Re: Candida Curable Only in Apathogenic Form (Not true. Archive under Candida) posted by Walt Stoll on May 11, 1999 at 11:17:08:

Walt and Bob

I cannot tell you how relieved I am to have both of you giving me your opinions about this article. I will sleep better tonight!

Johnelle




Re: Candida Curable Only in Apathogenic Form (Not true. Archive under Candida)

Posted by Walt Stoll on May 12, 1999 at 11:25:24:

In Reply to: Re: Candida Curable Only in Apathogenic Form (Not true. Archive under Candida) posted by Bernice on May 11, 1999 at 12:20:09:

Hi, Bernice.

I hope I am wrong but I have the feeling that the "anti-candida diet" you are on is NOT the one I recommend. Where did you get it? The standard "anti-candida diet" takes at least 2 years for the benefits you are looking for and THEN 95% of people that get off it have relapse. The diet below takes 3-6 months and less than 5% have relapse as they taper off it. Whole foods will be needed forever but that does not have to be so picky & is actually a much more varied diet than the standard American diet.

Next, from your note I get that you have just started doing your SR correctly (not for the "9 months" you have been doing other stuff)--am I right?

My first suggestion is to do the TOTAL elimination of refined carbohydrates diet--PERFECTLY-- (Beth Loiselle, RD's book) and not any of the "anti-candida diets" while continuing your effective SR program.

THEN, if you have enough time & energy, take a 15-60 minute walk every day (best done right before one of your relaxation terchniques).

In the meantime, if you don't mind continuing the supplements, they will help. However, of all you need to do to shorten this ordeal, they are the least important at this stage---------perhaps later when the causes of the LGS are handled, you could take them for a few weeks of a month or so.

I hope this helps clarify what you could be doing.

Walt



Re: I didn't see any anti-fungals listed...

Posted by Walt Stoll on May 12, 1999 at 11:27:36:

In Reply to: Re: I didn't see any anti-fungals listed... posted by Robert McFerran on May 11, 1999 at 16:02:53:

Thanks, Bob.

Your clarification of the whole foods, anti-allergen diet is betrter than mine.

Walt



Walt's reply re: LGS/Candida

Posted by
Bernice on May 12, 1999 at 11:41:28:

In Reply to: Re: Candida Curable Only in Apathogenic Form (Not true. Archive under Candida) posted by Walt Stoll on May 12, 1999 at 11:25:24:

Hi again, Dr. Stoll.

Thank you again for your reply and info.

Yes, you are absolutely correct -- in that I just began Skillful Relaxation (SR) 3 weeks ago (after reading all your strong encouragement to do it), not since I was diagnosed, 9 months ago. (Herbert Benson's book, "Beyond the Relaxation Response" is excellent, for anyone who wants a quick and easy explanation of how to do it, and it only costs $4.95.)

But I HAVE BEEN on a 100% whole foods diet with zero refined carbohydrates and zero cheating. And I walk at least an hour every day (no lack of energy in my symptoms, thank God!). I will take another look at Beth Loiselle's book to see if her whole foods diet is different from what I've been doing. (I'd already read it a few months ago, and remember it being very similar to what I do presently.)

Walt, when you said in your previous post, "the diet below takes 3-6 months and less than 5% have relapse as they taper off it," were you indeed referring to Beth Loiselle's book?

Thank you!

Bernice



Re: Walt's reply re: LGS/Candida

Posted by Walt Stoll on May 13, 1999 at 11:41:47:

In Reply to: Walt's reply re: LGS/Candida posted by Bernice on May 12, 1999 at 11:41:28:

Hi, Bernice.

Yes, I was referring to Beth's book. Let us know how your diet fares when compared with the information in that resource. The problem is that the slightest trace of refined carbohydrate will usually mostly destroy its effectiveness and THEN all bets are off about duration and relapse.

If you are being "perfect" with the diet, you are now doing all three legs of the "wellness stool". Remember, if one leg gives 3 points of benefit, 2 legs give 9 points and 3 legs give 27.

A small % of people will get over this with a less than perfect diet , no exercise & haphazard SR. However, some people have to be perfect in everything to get back "in the middle of the field". Humans are very different in their genetic horsepower.

Once your system gets back on top of things, you will be able to tolerate gradually increasing traces of "stressors" in your diet till just a great, healthy diet will be plenty.

Let me know what is going on.

Walt



Re: Walt's reply re: LGS/Candida

Posted by
Bernice on May 13, 1999 at 14:02:47:

In Reply to: Re: Walt's reply re: LGS/Candida posted by Walt Stoll on May 13, 1999 at 11:41:47:

Hi Walt.

Thank you for the additional clarification, and your kind message.

I will surely let you know how I fare after about a month or two, and reading/implementing Beth Loiselle's book.

Blessings, and thanks,
Bernice



Re: Walt's reply re: LGS/Candida

Posted by Johnelle on May 14, 1999 at 19:22:03:

In Reply to: Re: Walt's reply re: LGS/Candida posted by Walt Stoll on May 13, 1999 at 11:41:47:

Walt

It's confession time ...

When I was in Charleston two weeks ago there were many, many occasions to relapse with my dieting efforts. I ate ONE BITE of dessert each night, I had one bite of bread one night, and at the airport waiting to come home my devilish friend tempted me with a chocolate-covered pretzel, which I popped in my mouth, chewed AND THEN SPIT OUT.

Oh, please tell me I haven't blown everything. Since my little fling I have been remembering a comment from somewhere that the goal is to interrupt the life cycle of the yeast.

Can you tell me whether I have committed the unforgivable sin in Charleston, and what the life cycle of yeast means?

Johnelle



Re: Walt's reply re: LGS/Candida

Posted by Walt Stoll on May 16, 1999 at 10:40:01:

In Reply to: Re: Walt's reply re: LGS/Candida posted by Johnelle on May 14, 1999 at 19:22:03:

Hi, Johnelle.

I doubt that you are doomed. However, there are many areas that these actions will set back for varying periods of time.

The fact that you had been "good" while you were at home will make it easier to get back to where you were when you left home than it was in the beginning.

Walt



[ Candida Archive ]
[ Main Archives Page ] [ Glossary/Index ]
[ FAQ ] [ Recommended Books ] [ Bulletin Board ]
   Search this site!