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AAL Candida Antibodies results

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AAL Candida Antibodies results

Posted by Johnelle on May 19, 1999 at 01:15:51:

Hi Walt and Bob

Just thought I'd post that I finally have my test results from AAL. My doctor has had a death in his family and his unreturned calls are two weeks old, so I just asked for a copy of the test but have no interpretation. Any insight you have or comments would be helpful.

Candida Immune Complexes 0.30 Expected range 0.10-0.90
Candida IgG Antibodies 15.00 Expected range 0.00-10.00
Candida IgA Antibodies 3.00 Expected range 0.00-10.00
Candida IgM Antibodies 5.00 Expected range 0.00-10.00

I drove my daughter to camp yesterday, and she left behind a lemonade cup with only ice remaining. I tried a bit of the ice, which had almost no detectable acidity or sweetness, but I got thick mucus in my throat almost immediately. I guess that's what you refer to as trying something sweet to see how you handle it, huh?

Johnelle




Re: AAL Candida Antibodies results

Posted by
trish on May 19, 1999 at 10:52:41:

In Reply to: AAL Candida Antibodies results posted by Johnelle on May 19, 1999 at 01:15:51:

Hi, Johnelle,

I had the same test done twice last year when I started this whole journey. When I had my first test done, I had immune complexes of 2.7!! If I am reading it right, you don't have an active candida problem right now. YAY! Your immune complexes are lower than mine were when I was declared "cured" (My test said 0.7).

I'm guessing that the high IgG means that you HAD an overgrowth in the recent past.

But, that's just a guess - we'll see if I'm right or wrong when Bob and Walt check in. Anyway, congratulations, it sounds like you're really on your way!!!

trish



Re: AAL Candida Antibodies results

Posted by
Robert McFerran on May 19, 1999 at 12:51:59:

In Reply to: AAL Candida Antibodies results posted by Johnelle on May 19, 1999 at 01:15:51:

Johnelle,

Trish is right -- congratulations, like the great majority of folks that I've worked with that have fibromyalgia they still have enough immune competency that they do not have a huge problem with candida. This supports the fact that I feel that fibromyalgia is strongly metabolically driven. If you stay with whole foods that are appropriate for your metabolism you'll find yourself much improved after 6 months -- to the point where you can do more exercise. After a year you'll find the symptoms only a memory of the past.

When you get to this point you will understand what mechanisms brought you to where you are now. Your continuing skilled relaxation will be a critical component along with diet in resolving your leaky guts.

IgG antibodies in high titers are indicative of a past candida infection -- perhaps up to two years ago.

Bob



How can I not have CRS?

Posted by Johnelle on May 19, 1999 at 19:26:31:

In Reply to: Re: AAL Candida Antibodies results posted by Robert McFerran on May 19, 1999 at 12:51:59:

Thanks, Bob and Trish

I would be elated at this news if I weren't so skeptical about it! Too many signs have pointed to CRS very recently. And Lord knows I have certainly fed any critters that were there up till about two months ago. I've been doing the Nystatin and GSE about 7 weeks now, but surely it's not possible that could work so quickly. Do I dare quit?

What is the explanation for my getting such thick mucus in my throat whenever I get a trace of sugar? Just thinking, though, maybe it's one type of sugar that sets me off, because sometimes I am affected terribly and other times not at all. For instance, the more expensive the chocolate, the more I seem to have an allergic reaction, i.e., my throat gets raw as I swallow it. I will actually get a raspy voice if I take 4-5 bites of a chocolate from a store that sells candy by the pound, the good type chocolate.

Up until I eliminated grains I would get this same mucus with just one bite of some breads.

I had no bad feelings when I did the Pepto test, but about the 3rd or 4th day I had one totally black stool, like charcoal or something. What could that have meant?

I have been unable to do the GSL test for parasites because you can't be on anti-fungals when you do it. Should I stop the Nystatin and GSE now and test for parasites? It would be heaven to get that terrible taste out of my mouth forever!

And how do I go about testing different forms of sweeteners, such as fructose, sucrose, all that stuff; is there a way?

I hope you can remember all these questions, so I can get all those wonderful answers you always seem to have!!!!

Johnelle



Re: How can I not have CRS?

Posted by
Robert McFerran on May 19, 1999 at 23:58:28:

In Reply to: How can I not have CRS? posted by Johnelle on May 19, 1999 at 19:26:31:

Johnelle,

If you have read BIOBALANCE you will know that Dr. Wiley found that candidiasis was over-diagnosed AND that in many instances eating a diet mismatched to inherited metabolism would mimic the problems that those with candidiasis exhibited. I agree with him. As I mentioned I rarely find a person diagnosed with fibromyalgia that DOES have a candida problem. More importantly for you -- they have successfully overcome their problem IF they adhere very closely to their diet WITHOUT ANY ANTIFUNGAL THERAPY.

The missing link here that Dr. Wiley did not mention is the fact that all folks with candidiasis have a leaky gut. Folks that are eating a diet mismatched to inherited metabolic needs and exhibiting symptoms ALSO have leaky gut syndrome. You Johnelle have leaky gut syndrome but not candidiasis. Of course if you would be medicating yourself rather than getting at the root of this problem you would have a VERY good chance of having your immune system succumb to candidiasis within the next couple of years.

The sugar you are eating is NOT a whole food -- none of the sugars that you mention in your post are whole foods -- so you'll react if you eat them. Also many folks have found that cane and date sugar are major food allergens. This can also provoke the hyper-acute response that you've seen.

As far as chocolate goes -- you'll probably be surprised to find that wheat often finds it's way into chocolate processing.

You are on the road to wellness -- all you need to do is lose the mindset of 'cheating'.

Don't borrow trouble. I really doubt that you have problems with candidiasis and/or other parasites. The PERFECT whole foods, metabolic diet along with your skilled relaxation and TIME will resolve your problems. Unfortunately you'll NEVER be able to go back to your old dietary antics. It IS what brought you here in the first place.

Bob



Re: How can I not have CRS? (Perhaps unimportant at this stage?) (ARCHIVE in candida)

Posted by Walt Stoll on May 20, 1999 at 10:26:03:

In Reply to: How can I not have CRS? posted by Johnelle on May 19, 1999 at 19:26:31:

Hi, Johnelle.

Bob & I have agreed to disagree about this test.

So far as I am concerned, there IS no laboratory test that works as well as Dr Crook's Candida Questionaire for diagnosing this problem in those with chronic conditions not resolved by conventional means. There have been several professional articles that have found that to be true.

That is why I try to get the person to be knowledgable about all this before deciding what to do next. Why spend money when the most accurate way to the diagnosis is free?

Of all the lab tests I have had experience with, the repeated purged stool for parasites is the most accurate--
even though it leaves a lot to be desired as well. Besides it has the added potential of finding some of the many other parasites the CDC says Americans have as causes of chronic symptoms. Candida is but one of the at least dozens of parasites that can cause similar symptoms---and ALL are caused by LGS.

I would agree with Bob that candida is possibly overdiagnosed by those who are just learning about it. Perhaps that is better than what used to happen when candida was ALWAYS missed.

As you know, I am a lot more interested in dealing with WHY one might be susceptible to candida than whether they have candida or not. In the end, once the susceptibility factors have been dealt with, the candida would be much easier to treat, if that were necessary, anyway.

Making sense?

Namaste` Walt



Re: How can I not have CRS?

Posted by Johnelle on May 20, 1999 at 11:35:24:

In Reply to: Re: How can I not have CRS? posted by Robert McFerran on May 19, 1999 at 23:58:28:

Bob

Maybe I need to elaborate on my mucus problems. I ate 1/4 of an apple this morning with almond butter. For about ten minutes afterward I had phlegm in my throat that I was coughing up. This is a problem with a whole food; correct? How am I to interpret it?

Are you comfortable with my discontinuing Nystatin, GSE, acidophilus/bifolus and Caprylic acid?

Johnelle



Re: How can I not have CRS?

Posted by
Mike Kramer on May 20, 1999 at 12:25:06:

In Reply to: Re: How can I not have CRS? posted by Johnelle on May 20, 1999 at 11:35:24:

Johnelle:

I will give you my response, but I am sure we both are eager to hear from Bob.

1. If the antifungals weren't helping me and I had tested negative for candida, I would stop taking the antifungals. If I had noticed the antifungals were helping me and I had tested negative for candida, I would say "so much the worst for the lab test" and stay on the antifungals.

2. I am an HG. I l o v e almond butter and any other kind of nut butter. Yes it's a whole food (sort of, since it's canned, but that's another story). But I still react to it badly. So unless I want it so bad that I want to upset my stomach, I stay away from it. Same thing for apples.

3. It's tough to eat a very restricted diet. If my veggies are more than a tiny accompaniment to my meat, I pay the price. I miss my starches; I miss my sweets. But I don't miss my bloating, cramps, and diarrhea. I used to think that once I found my "cure" I would be able to eat "like a normal person." With the help of this board I have lowered my expectations. I hope that some day I will be a less extreme HG. It isn't easy being extreme.

Mike



Re: How can I not have CRS? (Perhaps unimportant at this stage?) (ARCHIVE in candida)

Posted by
Robert McFerran on May 20, 1999 at 12:27:53:

In Reply to: Re: How can I not have CRS? (Perhaps unimportant at this stage?) (ARCHIVE in candida) posted by Walt Stoll on May 20, 1999 at 10:26:03:

Hi Walt,

I used to hold the same opinion as you since I didn't have anything else (other than your experience) to go on. However as I started running different folks with different types of arthritis through the elimination diet, the metabolic diet, skilled relaxation and testing for parasites (including candida albicans) some things that changed my opinion emerged.

I have worked with over 20 folks with fibromyalgia so severe that they were actually diagnosed by rheumatologists. Not that rheumatologists would have a better understanding of what is going on -- but the rheumatologists always do run EXTENSIVE blood work to rule out other rheumatoid diseases. As you know in the end when they can't apply one of the other labels and the pain pattern is consistent with fibromyalgia they give it that label.

With all of the folks that I've worked with I've asked them get the Candida Immune Complexes test run since candida overload is so often associated with leaky gut syndrome (something that all folks with fibromyalgia have). Well, to date NONE of the folks have come back positive with this test. All of them have been able to completely resolve their fibromyalgia after a year of strict adherence to a whole foods diet (sans major food allergens) matched to their inherited metabolism, exercise and skilled relaxation.

Striking is that many of these folks were so bad that they were on complete disability. ALL of them regained their health without anti-fungal therapy.

To close the loop a bit more I've found that over 90% of the folks with SEVERE rheumatoid arthritis have a significant candida problem that is confirmed using the Immune Complexes test. These folks will find very little relief until after 3-6 months of sustained anti-fungal therapy.

I still ask that folks with fibromyalgia take the Candida Immune Complexes test in search of someone that will have this as part of the problem. I do think I will someday find one -- but it will be rare.

Unfortunately this experience shoots the whole questionaire approach in the foot (at least for me). ALL of the folks that had fibromyalgia would score relatively high for candidiasis using the questionaire -- when it really wasn't there.

I've also found stool tests to be equally inconsistent. In other words they have come back negative when the person has a raging case of candidiasis that is subsequently confirmed by the Immune Complexes test -- and improvement after anti-fungal therapy. As you know the stool test will also give a false negative after you start anti-fungal therapy and therefore is of no use to monitor the effectiveness of anti-fungal treatment during therapy. The Immune Complexes test does correlate with improvement during therapy. It's not 100% -- but I still think it's the best way to go.

Bob



Re: How can I not have CRS?

Posted by
Robert McFerran on May 20, 1999 at 12:37:05:

In Reply to: Re: How can I not have CRS? posted by Johnelle on May 20, 1999 at 11:35:24:

Johnelle,

Please see Walt's reply and my comments on the same subject to one of your previous notes on this topic.

I personally would be comfortable with you stopping the nystatin, caprylic acid and GSE. I would still take an occassional acidophillus/bifudus capsule -- especially if you are taking birth control pills and after any use of antibiotics.

As far as the apple and nut butter goes you need to ferret this one out. What happens when you eat the nut butter alone? What happens when you eat the apple alone? Is the apple organic -- in other words do you have the same response with an organic apple that you would have with a non-organic (pesticide and wax coated) apple?

If any of these things generate the phlegm then you know that you should not eat it.

Bob




other types of yeasts than candida

Posted by
Dawn G. on May 20, 1999 at 14:18:47:

In Reply to: Re: How can I not have CRS? (Perhaps unimportant at this stage?) (ARCHIVE in candida) posted by Robert McFerran on May 20, 1999 at 12:27:53:

Bob,

It seems to me that the antibody tests will only catch cases of actual Candida species. When I did the CDSA it found a yeast that would take me three days to type out its name but it wasn't a Candia. I don't think the immune complex tests would have caught this?



Re: other types of yeasts than candida

Posted by
Robert McFerran on May 20, 1999 at 18:01:12:

In Reply to: other types of yeasts than candida posted by Dawn G. on May 20, 1999 at 14:18:47:

Dawn,

You have hit upon another very important issue.

You are correct that the IgG, IgA and IgE titers are specific only for candida albicans -- and there are other candida species that are just as opportunistic and equally damaging to the intestinal tract. The immune complexes test also measures candida mannin -- and I think that it is not specific for candida albicans.

I 'backed into' this realization when I found that most of the folks that have severe rheumatoid arthritis seem to do BEST with the prescription anti-fungal drug Lamisil. Any pharmacist will tell you that Lamisil is not very specific for candida albicans. It is actually better for some of the other candida strains.

Once you have a leaky gut in place you will, by necessity have altered immunity. How much it's altered depends on a lot of other variables.

If we lose enough immunological reserves so that candida albicans flourishes it make sense that other fungal and non-fungal micro-organisms can do the same. Perhaps this is why a broad spectrum anti-fungal like Lamisil works so well in some cases.

Bob



"Is isn't easy being extreme" -- classic statement!

Posted by Johnelle on May 20, 1999 at 23:03:23:

In Reply to: Re: How can I not have CRS? posted by Mike Kramer on May 20, 1999 at 12:25:06:

Mike and Bob and Walt

Isn't that a great statement Mike made ... "It isn't easy being extreme". I can just see a cartoon with that caption underneath. I KNOW the feeling, Mike; I'm H-G also, and the more extreme I am the better I feel!

Interesting questions about the apple. I eat almond butter with no problems. The apple ... it's been sitting in the icebox so long waiting till I could try fruit again that I can't remember whether it was organic or not. I did soak all my fruit in Shaklee Basic H to remove as much as possible of the wax and pesticides. I will go buy an organic apple and try again. ALL fruit has been causing the phlegm for quite some time, however. What do you make of that, Bob?

Truthfully, the Nystatin, etc. hasn't seemed to make a difference at all. I'm off that nasty stuff as of today! I plan to remain absolute on the whole foods diet for six months, then stay on it except when traveling probably.

I got home from a meeting tonight and would have thought I'd want to polish off that apple before bedtime, but lo and behold, what I really wish I had was some fried lambchops! I'll dream about it till breakfast; it's already thawing.

Thanks, everyone!
Johnelle




Re: How can I not have CRS? (Perhaps unimportant at this stage?) (ARCHIVE in candida)

Posted by Walt Stoll on May 21, 1999 at 11:48:21:

In Reply to: Re: How can I not have CRS? (Perhaps unimportant at this stage?) (ARCHIVE in candida) posted by Robert McFerran on May 20, 1999 at 12:27:53:

Hi, Bob.

See my note to Johnelle.

I always try to get the person to deal with the causes before the effects. Since candida is an effect of LGS, the approach you mention here should work fine in the majority of the cases.

As I said to Johnelle, perhaps the presence of candida-related syndrome is not important.

Perhaps the consistantly negative blood test is not negative because of the absence of candida but is just wrong----not that it matters much in my opinion. I would MUCH rather see people do what you are describing here &, if there are still symptoms in a 6-12 month period, to THEN vigorously address the C-RS question.

Is this making sense to you?

Walt



Re: other types of yeasts than candida (more significantly)

Posted by Walt Stoll on May 21, 1999 at 11:53:54:

In Reply to: other types of yeasts than candida posted by Dawn G. on May 20, 1999 at 14:18:47:

Hi, Dawn.

Of course, you are right. However, I have yet to see any research that said that any other kind of yeast can cause these chronic problems.

Having said that, however, your note touches on what I DO think is important.

Since none of the parasitic problems (of which there are at least dozens--candida being only one) can exist without first the person having LGS, the LGS tests & approaches are a lot more important (at least in the beginning) than the tests for ANY parasites. The candida blood test only checks (if it even does THAT reliably) for one of the dozens of things that can make LGS worse by further damaging the lining & alerting the immune system.

Walt



Re: other types of yeasts than candida

Posted by Walt Stoll on May 21, 1999 at 11:55:07:

In Reply to: Re: other types of yeasts than candida posted by Robert McFerran on May 20, 1999 at 18:01:12:

Hi, Bob.

Please see my note to Dawn on this subject.

Talk at me.

Walt



Re: How can I not have CRS? (Perhaps unimportant at this stage?) (ARCHIVE in candida)

Posted by
Robert McFerran on May 21, 1999 at 13:03:21:

In Reply to: Re: How can I not have CRS? (Perhaps unimportant at this stage?) (ARCHIVE in candida) posted by Walt Stoll on May 21, 1999 at 11:48:21:

Walt,

Of course what you are saying makes sense. The real problem here is the idea of testing anything is problematical. Of course the blood test could be incorrect. Of course the stool test could be incorrect. I guess that I could suggest that multiple tests, say 5 blood tests and 5 stool tests should be run in hopes that we get a more definative answer. Of course then the problem becomes if we got one out of five with a 'positive' then how can we be confident that it just wasn't a 'false positive'. Beyond that the expense becomes prohibitive at roughly $100/per test with insurance at best only picking up the cost for one test every 3-6 months or so.

In the past the best strategy was to go ahead and run a theraputic trial of nystatin. The worst thing it could do is do nothing and perhaps it might help. The risk/reward ratio was right. Johnelle could take this course.

Her only REAL risk is that she would lose grasp of what were the MAJOR things that she would need to do to recover -- in this case skilled relaxation and allergen free metabolic diet. Instead she would be obsessing about things like the life cycle of candida albicans when it has no impact on her specific case.

The REAL problem comes not for folks with the H-G or Mixed metabolic types (like Johnelle) but with the Agriculturists who try the prescribed 'anti-candida' diets when fighting a yeast problem. An example might help here.

A woman from San Diego had fibromyalgia for 6 years. She moved from the uselessness of allopathic medicine and tried alternative methods including Chiropractic, massage therapy, accupuncture and Chinese medicine. She finally found a M.D. that was trained in Environmental Medicine who unleashed thousands of dollars of testing including stool tests and candida antibody tests to determine if candidiasis was a predisposing problem for this woman. Both tests came back negative yet he still decided to put her on nystatin powder and an 'anti-candida' diet. What could be the harm?

As soon as she went home and started with the nystatin and low carbohydrate 'anti-candida' diet she went into a tailspin and found herself back in the doc's office three days later with more fatigue and pain than she ever had before. Her doctor told her not to worry -- what she was experiencing was a 'die-off' reaction from the yeast. She was told to "hang in there" and that the die-off would subside. The symptoms did not abate and somewhat happily the woman abandoned both the anti-candida diet and the nystatin -- as well as anything else that the Environmental Medicine doc had suggested.

When indroduced to this woman it quickly became obvious that she was a very EXTREME Agriculturist. Her symptoms were exacerbated not by the nystatin but by the anti-candida diet that was also prescribed. I had her focus on getting to her 'best' diet initially and then had her add skilled relaxation. Within 6 months she was back on her feet and looking for work. After a year her problems were completely resolved. In her case she told me that the most critical component of her health regimine was diet. That didn't surprise me since she was, metabolically speaking, VERY EXTREME.

None of this really effects Johnelle (she could continue with the anti-fungal therapy with little risk). I did want to point out however that docs (both alternative and allopathic) are out there diagnosing candidiasis left and right based on symptomology. Unfortunately the low carbohydrate 'anti-candida' diet is as much as part of the prescribed therapy as the anti-fungal. In the end this won't work for a great percentage of patients. Many patients will be actually harmed by the mis-diagnosis of candidiasis -- not by the nystatin -- but by the diet.

Finally, there are all those folks that DO have candidiasis that are NOT diagnosed. They won't resolve their problems either.

Bob



Re: other types of yeasts than candida

Posted by
Robert McFerran on May 21, 1999 at 13:16:42:

In Reply to: Re: other types of yeasts than candida posted by Walt Stoll on May 21, 1999 at 11:55:07:

Hi Walt,

I agree.

Once you have a leaky gut then immunity WILL BE ALTERED. How it is altered can vary in a thousand different ways. In most cases the more 'opportunistic' micro-organisms will become problematical first.

I have read studies that suggest that other species of candida can and do damage the intestinal tract, BUT I really think it's a moot point. As you've mentioned so many times before our best hope is to resolve the leaky gut and hopefully regain normal immunity instead of focusing too much on the thousands of different ways that dysbiosis can present itself in the gut.

Bob



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