Leaky Gut Syndrome archives

Nystatin:duration of treatment

Posted by Pam on October 10, 1998 at 15:02:45:

Although I have found a doctor who is willing to work with me on CRS, it looks like I'll need to HELP him understand what I want. For instance, the first prescription he wrote was for oral nystatin suspension, complete with loads of sugar. Oh well, he does specialize in pediatrics and allergies. He probably thought, being the big kid that I am, that I would enjoy the banana cherry flavoring. :) To his credit, he immediately honored my request for a new prescription for Nystatin powder, 750,000 units, 4x a day. (Thank you Walt.)

So now, I think our next discussion will be about duration of treatment. He wrote the prescription for 10 days. From everything I've read, that's not anywhere close to being long enough. I'm not clear though on what IS long enough and how I will know when I can stop taking it. It seems to me that if Nystatin is successful, treatment typically lasts anywhere from 3 months to a year. I'm thinking of asking him to support my taking it for 6 months, but this is kind of an arbitrary number I chose. I appreciate all guidance that I can get on this.

Thanks,
Pam


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Re: Nystatin:duration of treatment

Posted by Robert McFerran on October 10, 1998 at 15:38:45:

In Reply to: Nystatin:duration of treatment posted by Pam on October 10, 1998 at 15:02:45:

Pam,

This is one reason why I strongly suggest the Candida Immune complexes test from Antibody Assay Labs.

There are VERY few docs that will go on prescribing anything ad infinitum (especially today when insurance companies are so closely monitoring what they prescribe and for how long -- BIG BROTHER IS WATCHING). Like you they (your doc and your insurance company) will want to know if you have a real problem in the first place and second how (beyond how you feel) will you be sure that you've taken a long enough course?

The test I just mentioned touts a 95% correlation with symptoms -- in other words as the immune complexes drop your symptoms drop. Once you get into the 'normal' range it might be an opportunity to taper or stop taking the nystatin.

The MINIMUM duration of treatment is 3 months and can last until you get well.

From what I've seen the bloodwork values tend to lag behind symptoms. In other words you usually feel better BEFORE the immune complexes start to drop. Unfortunately the converse is also true -- the immune complexes can start to rise (if you are relapsing) and you won't detect it until the candidiasis is already raging again.

Get the blood test -- it's a good road map and infinately better than what we had one a year ago.

Bob



Re: Nystatin:duration of treatment

Posted by Walt Stoll on October 11, 1998 at 09:42:34:

In Reply to: Nystatin:duration of treatment posted by Pam on October 10, 1998 at 15:02:45:

Hi, Pam.

I agree with most of what Bob has to say. I hope both of you will take heed of the notes 10/9/98 about the accuracy of candida questionaires as compared with ANY monitoring "test".

Three months of Nystatin is about what my experience says too. Especially if the person is dealing with the LGS at the same time. Nystatin is not a perfect solution either but, in MY experience, it is the safest, least expensive thing to try first.

So far as the money is concerned, until the monopoly gets shattered, people may have to pay for what works rather than limiting themselves to what doesn't work just because "their insurance pays for it". If you are doing the right stuff, you will not have to do it long before you don't need ANY treatment at all.

Walt



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Re: Nystatin:duration of treatment

Posted by Pam on October 11, 1998 at 13:20:59:

In Reply to: Re: Nystatin:duration of treatment posted by Walt Stoll on October 11, 1998 at 09:42:34:

Dear Bob and Walt,

Thank you both for your good advice. I plan to just take this one step at a time. Since the relationship with my doctor is new, I'd like to let it build as I continue to ask for what I want. He seems willing to work with me, without discounting my requests, but he does have an opinion about the antibody test. I haven't decided yet whether to push for it. I could instead go to a doctor who is known to treat for yeast syndrome...there are 3 in my area...but they are all very expensive and none are covered by my insurance. I know that's not the ONLY factor to consider, but it is A factor for me. If it gets in the way of my healing, I'll move on and pay the higher prices. By the way, a large bottle of Nystatin powder cost me only $3. The pre-insurance cost was $36.

As far as the questionnaires go, I have copies of Dr. Crook's Yeast Questionnaire and Dr. Trowbridge's Quiz for Yeast Syndrome. The other 2 that are mentioned are the Cornell Index and the Beck Index. Does anyone know where I can find them?

Does anyone have experience with Molybdenum and or Pantethine/Pantethenic Acid supplementation? I understand it helps to rid the body of candida waste. The link I've attached here is what I'm talking about. I'd appreciate opinions.

Thanks again.

Namaste,
Pam



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Re: Nystatin:duration of treatment

Posted by Robert McFerran on October 11, 1998 at 13:59:06:

In Reply to: Re: Nystatin:duration of treatment posted by Pam on October 11, 1998 at 13:20:59:

Pam,

I doubt that your doc is familiar with the Candida immune complexes test that I've mentioned. There have been previous candida antibody tests BUT they just measured IgG,IgM and IgA to candida albicans. The immune complexes test is MUCH more inclusive and primarily measures IgG antibodies, candida antigen, and fragments of complement to determine where you stand with this specific pathogen.

I've actually read a small book written by the guy that came up with the molybdenum connection link that you sight. He runs pretty fast and loose with the biochemistry. I think that molybdemum should be supplemented as a trace mineral but not beyond that.

As far as the pantothenoic acid goes -- it is one of the most powerful vitamins in adjusting blood plasma pH up in ALL individuals. This makes it appropriate for Hunter-Gatherers and at the same time VERY INAPPROPRIATE FOR AGRICULTURISTS. I noticed your post about supplementing of magnesium at the behest of your homeopath. I just wanted to warn you that luckily this fits your Agriculturist profile BUT extra magnesium supplementation (beyond my diet) would be totally inappropriate for my H-G metabolism. Since you are any EXTREME Agriculturist any pantothenoic acid supplementation would worsen your metabolic state.

Bottom line -- supplements, like foods, vary for each metabolic type.

There is another interesting fact about the pantothenoic acid. A woman with non-erosive arthritis found that if she supplemented with large amounts of pantothenoic acid (1,000 to 1,500 mg/day) that her symptoms would immediately abate. She actually wrote an entire book based on this single phenomenon. I feel that the lessening of symptoms that she experienced was ALL due to the fact that the large doses of pantothenoic acid pushed her EXTREME Hunter-Gatherer metabolism back toward it's optimal.

Unfortunately it would do just the opposite with your symptoms -- and of course your increase in pains would be interpreted (incorrectly) as a 'healing crisis'.

Pam, I know that this is all overwhelming -- especially since you are trying to educate yourself with stuff (that in my mind) is essentially outdated in terms of how to resolve a yeast problem. Just eat the low carbohydrate diet suggested for candidiasis an you will KNOW it's not right for you.

The answer is to eat whole foods (sans your major food allergens) that are appropriate for your metabolic type while practicing skilled relaxation and exercise (to deal with the underlying cause which is your leaky gut). Finally the appropriate antifungals should be used to tilt the playing field in your favor.

Bob


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Re: Nystatin:duration of treatment

Posted by Pam on October 11, 1998 at 14:37:29:

In Reply to: Re: Nystatin:duration of treatment posted by Robert McFerran on October 11, 1998 at 13:59:06:

Thanks Bob.

As of right now, I am taking 4 things a day...Ester C with bioflavanoids, Magnesium Malate, Nystatin, and Synthroid. I think I should add a some good intestinal flora like acidopholous/bifidus, but like everything else, the information is a bit overwhelming and I'm unsure about brands and dosages. I welcome your recommendations on any additional supplements that would benefit me at this stage.

As you know by now, I'm big on gathering information in an attempt to educate myself. When I see something interesting, I typically bring it here to get opinions. Rest assured that I don't embrace most of the opinions that I find. But, occassionally, I learn something of value that really does work for me (your diet for instance). And I enjoy the process.

Warm regards,
Pam


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Re: Nystatin:duration of treatment

Posted by Robert McFerran on October 11, 1998 at 18:23:39:

In Reply to: Re: Nystatin:duration of treatment posted by Pam on October 11, 1998 at 14:37:29:

Pam,

If you have successfully gone an entire month without any exacerbation of your symptoms throughout your menstrual cycle you are ready to investigate the wonder world of supplements.

I would suggest that you head to the health food store and try to find the supplements suggested by Dr. Wiley that are appropriate to your metabolic type. If needed I'll repost it. You'll find the supplements run parallel to the nutrients in the whole foods that you are alreay eating eating. There IS a logic in supplementing rather than saying that this is good for this and that is good for that.......

You'll also see that Dr. Wiley makes the attempt to 'balance' supplemented micro-nutrients for each of the three metabolic types. If you test them individually you may get a false read.

You might want to look at Lori's post to answer your question about acidophillus.

Bob


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wonder world of supplements

Posted by Linda J on October 12, 1998 at 06:58:05:

In Reply to: Re: Nystatin:duration of treatment posted by Robert McFerran on October 11, 1998 at 18:23:39:


Hi Robert,

I've been on the H-G diet for awhile now and would like to add the supplements. I weigh 115 lb , so I'll be cutting the dosage in half. The problem is except for the vit E and C, everything else is sold in big whopping doses. How is it possible to take say 50 mg of pantothenic acid?

Linda J.


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Re: Nystatin:duration of treatment

Posted by Walt Stoll on October 12, 1998 at 09:46:27:

In Reply to: Re: Nystatin:duration of treatment posted by Pam on October 11, 1998 at 13:20:59:

Der Pam,

Please double check that your Nystatin is "for internal use only". There is a Nystatin Powder that is "for external use only" that is mostly talcum powder.

I have seen physicians whose hearts were in the right place, but were not knowledgable, who ordered the topical by mistake. The reason I am asking is that this price is unbelievable for the pure Nystatin powder for internal use only. When you say a big bottle , how much net weight is there in the $3 bottle? In MY experience, a month's supply (at 750,000 units 4 times a day) costs more than $20 wholesale. Of course, that was 5 years ago but I have not seen pharmaceutical supply companies reducing their prices----at least not THAT much.



Follow Ups:


Re: wonder world of supplements

Posted by Walt Stoll on October 12, 1998 at 09:53:15:

In Reply to: wonder world of supplements posted by Linda J on October 12, 1998 at 06:58:05:

Dear Linda,

At #115, you should take the adult dosage. These micronutrients are safe at many times that dose. When you are starting something like this, you would be wise to take the largest dose till you find out how much this is going to help. THEN cut the does in half for a few months to see if you still get your maximum benefits. If so, after a few more months without reduction of benefits, cut the dose in half again. You will eventually find the dose that is the best for YOU.

If you start with the smaller dose, you may well take years to see if this will help you as you gradually increase the doses to find out what works for your individual biochemistry.

Walt




Re: wonder world of supplements

Posted by Robert McFerran on October 12, 1998 at 11:45:54:

In Reply to: wonder world of supplements posted by Linda J on October 12, 1998 at 06:58:05:

Linda,

Good question. I don't have a good answer.

Since your metabolic drift is greatest over-night I would try taking one full dose for breakfast and leave it at that.

You can get the pantothenic acid and niacinamide in 100 mg. capsules from TwinLab. The calcium hydroxyapetite from Ethical Nutrients has the perfect calcium/phosphorous balance for those two nutrients.

Bob


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Cost of Nystatin

Posted by Martha on October 12, 1998 at 21:01:26:

In Reply to: Re: Nystatin:duration of treatment posted by Walt Stoll on October 12, 1998 at 09:46:27:

Hi Walt and others: in Columbus, OH a 25 g. bottle
of nystatin powder is $83. I have taken it much longer
than 3 mo. because I couldn't follow the whole foods diet
perfectly. I have now stopped the powder but still use
the nystatin creme topically. It is very helpful. Martha


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Re: Cost of Nystatin

Posted by Pam on October 13, 1998 at 03:20:02:

In Reply to: Cost of Nystatin posted by Martha on October 12, 1998 at 21:01:26:

Walt and friends,

Here's what the label on my bottle says:

150 million units
Paddock Nystatin
Nystatin USP
for extemporaneous preparation of oral suspension
Store in refrigerator
Paddock Laboratories

The potency of this product can not be assured for longer than 90 days after container is first opened.
Potency (units/mg) 5912
Net Wt (Grams) 25.37
EXP 9-99
Delivers approximately 500,000 Nystatin Units per 1/8 teaspoonful. The potency of Nystatin varies from lot to lot.

I'm taking 1.5 spoonfuls using a 1/8 teaspoon for a total dosage of 750,000 units, 4 times a day.

So do I have the right stuff???

Thanks,
Pam


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Re: wonder world of supplements

Posted by Pam on October 13, 1998 at 03:43:16:

In Reply to: Re: wonder world of supplements posted by Robert McFerran on October 12, 1998 at 11:45:54:

Bob and Linda,

Now that I've done my BioBalance vitamin shopping I can relate to your question. My alkaline bioprofile calls for doses of 10mg each of vitamin B1, B2 and B6. I can't find the B2 in anything smaller than a 100mg, the others I can get in 50mg. B complexes all include B12 which isn't on my list. Niacin is another one. I can't find it in less than 100mg. So along with all my new little bottles of pills, I bought a pill cutter. And I created a master schedule so I could see at a glance when to take 1/2 a pill, a whole pill, or 2 pills, all of course after eating breakfast or lunch. Now if I can only coordinate that with taking Nystatin 4 times a day on an empty stomach and making sure that my skilled relaxation comes after exercise and not before.....

Pam



Re: Cost of Nystatin

Posted by Walt Stoll on October 13, 1998 at 12:14:35:

In Reply to: Re: Cost of Nystatin posted by Pam on October 13, 1998 at 03:20:02:

Hi, Pam.

You have the right stuff.

Were it me, I would stock up and keep it in the freezer till ready to use that bottle. This size bottle will give you about 20 doses (5 days) so at that rate your monthly supply should cost you about $18. This is still about half the retail price.

Somebody is giving you a "real deal".

I am a bit confused with your sentence:
"I am taking 1.5 spoonfuls, using a 1/8th teaspoon for a total dosage of 750,000 units, 4 times a day."

From what you said before, 1/8th teaspoon has about 500,000 units in it. That means you would need 3/16th teaspoons to get the 750,000 units. You would be taking 12/16ths a day.

I used to get away from measuring this so tiny by weighing out a month's supply & diluting it in a brown bottle so that 1 tsp of the solution was right for one dose. It DOES stay potent longer in the dry state so I would not mix it up. I gave the powder to the patient, along with the right sized bottle and instructions as to how to mix it when they were ready to use it. That was a bother but worked the best.

Walt




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Re: Cost of Nystatin

Posted by Pam on October 13, 1998 at 13:35:21:

In Reply to: Re: Cost of Nystatin posted by Walt Stoll on October 13, 1998 at 12:14:35:

Walt,

Thanks for the confirmation and sorry about the confusion. The pharmacist supplied me with a little plastic 1/8 teaspoon and told me to take 1.5 spoons for one dose. You are right. I am taking 3/16 tsp. to get 750,000units. With regard to your estimate of 20 doses per bottle, that seems low. I'm on my 4th day and I haven't even made a dent in the powder. I think the pharmacist told me that it was about a 30 day supply. Anyway, I REALLY appreciate the good deal I'm getting. The pharmacy receipt said that full cost was $36. I don't have great insurance so I was truly surprised when he told me that my co-pay would be $3. I'm just counting my blessings.

Namaste,
Pam


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Re: Cost of Nystatin

Posted by Walt Stoll on October 14, 1998 at 07:46:18:

In Reply to: Re: Cost of Nystatin posted by Pam on October 13, 1998 at 13:35:21:

Hi, Pam.

Go back to your note. I thought you gave a total number of units in the bottle. When I divide 750,000 units into that number, I get about 20 doses (or less) in the bottle. Please check my arithmetic & let me know where I screwed up.

If I did screw up, & there IS a month's supply in this bottle (120 doses at least), it is even more important for you to stock up on it before someone finds out they are not charging you nearly enough (grin).

Also, when you take the powder, you have to be sure the fine powder is not being packed into the spoon. There is no real way to prevent that (other than what I did with patients putting it in a bottle of water after I had weighed it out without packing). As you know already, this is SO fine that it is something like brown sugar (the recipe calls for "packed" measure since the total amount of sugar in the packed cup is so much MORE that in a non-packed cup).

Is this making sense? The units per measure is calculated on the fluffy measure NOT the packed one.

Namaste` Walt




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Doing the math

Posted by Pam on October 14, 1998 at 11:23:50:

In Reply to: Re: Cost of Nystatin posted by Walt Stoll on October 14, 1998 at 07:46:18:

Walt,

I think there's one more zero in there.

150,000,000 units divided by 750,000 = 200 doses
200 doses divided by 4 per day = 50 days
50 days divided by $3 = 6 cents a day

Amazing!!

Thank you for helping me to see how abundant I am.

Namaste
Pam


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Re: Doing the math

Posted by Walt Stoll on October 15, 1998 at 09:56:17:

In Reply to: Doing the math posted by Pam on October 14, 1998 at 11:23:50:

Thanks, Pam.

That extra zero makes all the difference.

You are getting this stuff for less than it costs to produce it at the factory. Someone, soon, will figure that out and your price will go up correspondingly.

Good luck!

Walt




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