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BAD REACTIONS from ENZYME SWITCH

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BAD REACTIONS from ENZYME SWITCH

Posted by Michael on July 26, 2001 at 06:20:39:

One of my most nagging symptoms is intermittent rectal itching which is usually triggered following a bowel movement. I realize there could be several causes to this, however, it was suggested to me to switch from the consistent and high doses of Betaine HCL and Pancreatin I have been using to the now popular plant-based enzymes with the thought that the acid from the HCL capsules could be irritating the anal mucosa, not to mention, throwing too much acid into the blood, exhausting the alkaline reserves, and canceling out the beneficial aspects of the Pancreatin according to this link: (http://www.loomisenzymes.com/articles/tac/indigest.html). I had always heard that the plant-based enzymes were the most effective since they supposedly work in a much broader pH than does Pancreatin.

I have been a longtime (approx. 15 years) user of Betaine HCL and Pancreatin because no other enzyme preparation worked in the past without giving me problems, including just about all of the plant-based enzymes on the market at the time. I felt I ought to give them a shot again thinking that perhaps now thereís better technology than there was last I tried them which was 10 years ago.

So, I embarked on an experiment and stopped the HCL and Pancreatin for 72 hours, switching to 2 caps of a broad-based plant-enzyme formulation taken just before meals and changing nothing else in my diet or supplement regime. The results:

A noticeable increase, not decrease, in rectal itching
Belching more, and in one instance, the acid that came up was so strong it burned for 30 minutes
Gas every 10 minutes
All my other symptoms also got noticeable worse
Irregular bowel movements

Needless to say, I have since gone back on the HCL & Pancreatin until I can sort out this out. Please keep in mind that the main purpose of the experiment was to determine whether the HCL was the cause of the rectal itching. What are your thoughts?

All opinions and explanations welcome.



Re: BAD REACTIONS from ENZYME SWITCH

Posted by Helping you on July 26, 2001 at 15:24:17:

In Reply to: BAD REACTIONS from ENZYME SWITCH posted by Michael on July 26, 2001 at 06:20:39:

I don't think the HCL is causing anal itching. If you need the HCL you are fine. The only true test is the heidelburg gastric analysis. It is 100% accurate. I had this test done 2 years ago thinking I had low stomach acid. I was taking HCL. After the challange, it was determined I produced too much acid. Quite a different story isn't it. It's best to be sure if you need it. You have probably benefited more from the pancreatic enzymes than anything else. If your pancreatic enzymes are low, all the symptoms you have described would be present.

This is very strange regarding the plant enzymes. Are you sure the plant enzymes CAUSED these symptoms? Try this. go off your HCL and pancreatin and instead, take NOTHING! If you STILL get the symptoms, it would be safe to say that the plant enzyme aren't hurting you, they are just not helping you.

Anal itching or foul-smelling stools are usually a sign of any one of the following or a combination:

1) Dysbiosis (bacterial overgrowth or parasites)
2) acidosis - this is often overlooked but if your body is too acid (diet, stress), these symptoms are inevitable.

Try that experiment first to see if the enzyme are the problem. If not, you might try swithing enzyme brands or increasing the dosage. Don't do this until you KNOW that the enzymes are causing it.

Another experiment would be to go back on the pancreatin but do not take the HCL. If your symptoms stop again, it's the pancreatin that is making the major difference.

Acidosis is most likely a part of the picture. Practing skilled relaxation is a great way to get your body out of acidosis. The other is to eat more alkaline foods but this can be tricky. most people will just give you a list of alkaline or acid foods and tell you what to eat and avoid. I feel this approach is half-assed. The real truth is, foods are neither acid or alkaline. It is the way your body metabolizes them that makes them acid or alkaline. If you are what is known as a FAST OXIDIZER, in other words, you burn energy quickly, vegetables would generally be acid for you. But meat and fat would be more alkaline. If you were a SLOW oxidizer, vegetables would be alkaline and meats and fats would be acid in your body. Pick up the book "THE METABOLICY TYPING DIET". I believe it is the most accurate way to determine dietary needs so far. There is also information in the archives.

If Dysbiosis is a problem, you would need to remove all refined foods from your diet, most fruits except granny smith apples and berries, and take some kind of herbal antifungals to kill the pathogens. If dysbiosis is the problem, you will get INCREASED symptoms from this protocol. This means it will benefit you. Increase fiber to remove pathogens. once the pathogens are gone, and you will know when that is, start on a good probiotic like FLORA SOURCE. This will re-populate your intestines.

I am just throwing ideas at you. the only way to know for sure is through proper testing. Otherwise, you are only taking educational guesses at best. Some tests to pinpoint the problems would be:

1) Loomis 24 hour urinalysis - enzyme deficiency
2) heidelburg Gastric analysis - HCL levels
3) CDSA with parasitology - digestion, microbes

These are probably all you need to get started. You could also contact "HEALTHEXCELL". Look them up on the web. They do detailed metabolic typing reports and can help you find the perfect diet for your body.

I hope this information helps you



Re: BAD REACTIONS from ENZYME SWITCH

Posted by Michael on July 27, 2001 at 06:06:32:

In Reply to: Re: BAD REACTIONS from ENZYME SWITCH posted by Helping you on July 26, 2001 at 15:24:17:

Thank you so much for such an informative response. Now, for my replies and further comments/questions:

So, you don't think the HCL could cause metabolic acidosis or the responsible for the rectal itch? If I was getting too much of it, I would get a burning sensation in my gut, right? I am going to do the Heidelberg again just to be sure. The last one I did was 15 years ago! I don't think I could be reacting to the plant-based enzymes because there is no trace of the source (Aspergillus) left in the product according to the makers.

I already tried what you have recommended by abstaining from the HCL & Pancreatin back in April, prior to taking my last CDSA test and had no noticeable reactions like this time (I was also off the 2 for 3 days).

Perhaps I should experiment by using the plant enzymes in conjunction with the HCL and Pancreatin.

Even though I am not a fan at all on any type of diet books, I got the book you recommended. I hope it is helpful and not faddish like so many of the others out there.

Funny you mentioned the Loomis urinalysis. Dr. Loomis wrote that article whose link I cited in my previous post, and he also is a big seller of the Thera-Zyme plant-based enzyme formulations. Perhaps a little bias there?

The condensed results of my last CDSA are as follows:

Digestion:
Chymotrypsin slightly elevated; Occasional meat fibers, elevated vegetable fibers; all else normal.

Absorption:
Cholesterol slightly elevated
Total SCFAs slightly elevated; all else normal

Metabolic Markers:
n-Butyrate elevated
stool pH - 6.7 (normal)
% Proprionate level depressed
% n-Butyrate level slightly elevated
all else normal

Bacteriology:
4+ on all Normal Flora
4+ on Candida psuedotropicalis

Yeast Sensitivity Results:
Candida psuedotropicalis
[showed resistant to Nystatin which I has been on for 15 years before I relapsed 18 mos. ago].

Bacterial Dysbiosis Index:
Normal/Undetectable

I cannot figure out why I would have elevated an yeast level when I was 4+ on normal flora. In addition, I have taken just about every natural and scrip systemic and topical antifungal available [Nystatin, Diflucan, Miconazole, and just completed a 65-day course of Amphotericin-B & Sporanox].

Current Symptoms: Intermittent rectal itch, chronic tremor, thick or tight sensation around throat, deepened or hoarse voice, acidic urine (pH 5.0-5.5), irregular BMs.

Even thought the following is off-topic and much more comprehensive [it always is], I thought I'd mention this anyway since everything's inter-connected when it come to health:

Other factor/Unresolved issues: Possible underlying HHV-6 infection which has facilitated a protein coagulation defect in my blood [positive test results to substantiate both]. The blood defect, also known as "thick or sticky blood", is very common in CFS/CFIDS patients and it is theorized that the HHV-6 virus [usually dormant in those with uncompromised cell-mediated immunity] causes it. I have also shown + on a test which shows a hereditary predisposition to the thick blood defect. It supposedly is more prevalent in those of European descent. Thick blood is blood that hypercoagulates and doesn't allow nutrients and oxygen to be delivered to cells efficiently, thereby reducing circulation & NOT ALLOWING THE GI TRACT, ENDOCRINE SYSTEM, & IMMUNE SYSTEM to do their jobs in keeping pathogens at bay and antimicrobials to do their work! It also is one of the primary causes of strokes and heart attacks. Whew - at least that's the theory. The treatment is blood thinners such as low dose Heparin which I might have to be on the rest of my life. This is something I've just discovered in my frustratingly arduous quest to get back to homeostasis. I almost didn't take the test since I was burned out on testing [did over 70 in the last 18 mos]. I haven't begun treatment yet on this. It will be interesting to see what will happen once I do. It sounds like it could be very significant in my recovery based on the testimonials of other chronic cases. I think it is that relevant, but cannot be certain until I try. The lab that does the test is called HEMEX [www.hemex.com]. This malady is even more insidious than candida, parasites, or anything else I've encountered. It would've been so easy to miss and is considered esoteric, as few alternative practitioners even are aware of it. I urge others who have failed on aggressive antimicrobial treatment programs and who have CFIDS to look into this if they already haven't.

I look forward to your comments!



Re: BAD REACTIONS from ENZYME SWITCH

Posted by Vince F on July 27, 2001 at 08:34:47:

In Reply to: Re: BAD REACTIONS from ENZYME SWITCH posted by Michael on July 27, 2001 at 06:06:32:

I believe metabolic acidosis comes from the kidneys not
recycling bicarb. Don't know much about HCL but would think
there would be rectal burning instead of an itch. I used to
have an itch at times and didn't do anything to get rid of
it so i don't know the cause.

VF

Follow Ups:


Re: BAD REACTIONS from ENZYME SWITCH

Posted by Walt Stoll on July 28, 2001 at 09:57:27:

In Reply to: BAD REACTIONS from ENZYME SWITCH posted by Michael on July 26, 2001 at 06:20:39:

Hi, Michael.

The most likely direct cause of your rectal irritation is the fatty acids that are formed by the LGS you are taking the enzymes to help. It is a good indication of the effectiveness of what you are doing.

Walt



Re: BAD REACTIONS from ENZYME SWITCH

Posted by Michael on July 28, 2001 at 19:36:10:

In Reply to: Re: BAD REACTIONS from ENZYME SWITCH posted by Walt Stoll on July 28, 2001 at 09:57:27:

1) How does LGS form fatty acids?
2) How can fatty acids irritate the anal musocsa?

Ps advise!



Re: BAD REACTIONS from ENZYME SWITCH

Posted by Helping you on July 29, 2001 at 11:49:08:

In Reply to: Re: BAD REACTIONS from ENZYME SWITCH posted by Michael on July 27, 2001 at 06:06:32:

I think you would have gotten stomach upsets first (as a sign of not needing HCL) before the rectal itching came into the picture. Like you said, taking a combination of Pancreatin AND plant enzymes may be the key for now. The HCL test is best for finding out if you need it.

I am also NOT a fan of diet books. I believe there are some good key points in many of them and I have adopted what I believe are the best practices overall but I really do believe metabolic typing to be the best way to put your diet together. Even after reading the book and you identify your metabolic type, it won't be a simple matter of just eating a particular diet for your type. This would STILL be along the lines of a "blanket recommendation". This is because even though many people may be "fast oxidizers", they still require slightly or even dramatically different ratios of macronutrients. So, in the end, you will still have to experiment to find your specific balance but it is well worth the effort. Identifying your type helps you figure out at least what KINDS of foods you do better on. Then, it is a matter of working out the balance. Believe me, you will know it when you hit it. MT takes a lot of effort, discipline, and patience. This is what makes it the most comprehensive. Anybody can go look up the their blood type and start eating the diet listed on the page. But, what would that do? It would be saying that ALL type A's need this and ALL type B's need this. ALL, NEVER, and ALWAYS are words that automatically tell me the author is trying to doop us! The metabolic typing plan requires YOUR intervention. Until doctors can hook us up to a computer and tell us with 100% accuracy exactly what foods we should eat, when, how, and in what order, the metabolic typing plan is the best there is.

I just reviewed your comprehensive stool analysis. It is consistant with malabsorption syndrome. There is also evidence of colitis or inflammation present. You may also have an acid/alkaline imbalance. I am suprised at the dysbiosis index being normal. With the yeast, disproportionate SCFA's, the dysbiosis should be moderately severe to severe. You are definitely in dysbiosis with malabsorption and possible inflammation or active colitis. With all the enzymes you are taking, this should not be. Are theses results before or after therapy with enzymes? The reason you have such a difficult strain of candida, is because you have taken every known candida killer, probably all at the same time, for too long. The species adapted and mutated. You need to find some anti-candida herbs that you have not used (possibly 4 or 5 herbs), and rotate them. Take 1 for 4 days, then switch to another for 4 days and keep doing this so that the candida cannot mutate and get stronger. See, the weakest strains die first leaving the stongest to mutate and multiply. Candida tropicalis is a bitch to eliminate. It could take 4-6 months to completely wipe it out. Let me know if you need help putting together an effective program to eliminate it. I too had candida tropicalis at one time and I know exactly what it is like and how to treat it.


A better way to thin your blood is to take bromelain. Better yet, get Quercetin/Bromelain by NOW (the company NOW). Take 2 capsules, 3x a day. This will thin your blood very well. If your under the care of a doctor, s/he will not likely take it seriously although it works better than asprin. Fish oil, vitamin E are two others that will thin your blood. I think bromelain is the best for this. Plus, bromelain has action against yeast when taken on an empty stomach, so, you are killing two birds with one stone.

I hope these suggestions help you.



Re: BAD REACTIONS from ENZYME SWITCH

Posted by Walt Stoll on July 29, 2001 at 16:43:54:

In Reply to: Re: BAD REACTIONS from ENZYME SWITCH posted by Michael on July 28, 2001 at 19:36:10:

Michael.

Poorly digested fats are fermented into fatty acids.

Fatty acids are just what they sound like: ACIDS!

If you put them on the back of your hand, they would cause blisters in a few hours. Your anal mucosa is a lot more resistant to these substances or you would have blisters there too.

Walt



Re: BAD REACTIONS from ENZYME SWITCH

Posted by Michael on July 30, 2001 at 04:46:04:

In Reply to: Re: BAD REACTIONS from ENZYME SWITCH posted by Helping you on July 29, 2001 at 11:49:08:

To respond to your questions:

The results of the most current CDSA were after long-term HCL/enzyme therapy. The test was done after 1 week off all antifungals I was taking at the time and I was off all emzymes and HCL only 3 days prior to the test, just so you know.

I have been taking 2 digestive supplements for about 10 years now, non-stop. I use a product called BIOGEST by Thorne research. It contains Betaine & Glutamic Acid, Pepsin, Pancreatin, and Ox Bile Extract. I also take an additional 30-40 grains of Thorne's Betaine HCL separately, but with each meal along with the Biogest. i have taken the HCL up to as much as 90 grains per meal without any burning sensation over the last year. The only time I feel burning from the HCL is when I don't consume enough protein.

Regarding the CDSA, what are the markers for malabsorption & colitis or inflammation & acid/alkaline imbalance you mention? My stool pH was normal. But, this does coincide with Dr Stoll's comment about mal-digestion of fatty acids which, when undigested, can cause the itch by irritating the anal mucosa. WHAT DOESN'T MAKES SENSE IS WHY THE PANCREATIN WHICH CONTAINS LIPASE, AS WELL AS PROTEASE & AMYLASE doesn't get rid of the problem. Perhaps I need to up the dose? Perhaps the Ox Bile is the culprit (it always helped me in the past though)?

As far as adding the plant enzymes, the only problem I've encountered is that all the formulas contain cellulase which digests fiber. If the fiber gets digested, I become very constipated and gaseous. That's one of the reasons I stopped using them before. Another weird problem is that if I increase any enzymes (not HCL), my urine turns so acidic that it irritates me and I get urinary frequency/urgency (perhaps the enzymes are getting rid of acid watse?). This also is the case if I consume too much protein (uric acid buildup?)Is this what you mean by pH imbalance?

When you mention I am in dysbiosis, you're referring to the 4+ level of C. pseudotropicalis, right, because there were no other pathogens and I had 4+ levels of normal bacteria present. BTW, do you really put any creedence in stool exams in the first place? There are so many erroneous results.

I agree with you that with all the enzymes, glutamine, EFAs, ImmunePro whey, raw goat milk kefir, etc., etc. I am taking to help with any inflammation and malabsorption, this should not be. That's a dead-end for me.

he reason you have such a difficult strain of candida, is because you have taken every known candida killer, probably all at the same time, for too long. The species adapted and mutated.

You are correct about the super-mutated strain of yeast. I also recently showed high antibody levels to C. krusei and C. tropicalis as well. C. albicans doesn't seem to be the problem anymore as you've mentioned for obvious reasons (I was on Nystatin for 15 years non-stop, with no other antifungals and relapsed badly 18 mos. ago)!


You need to find some anti-candida herbs that you have not used (possibly 4 or 5 herbs), and rotate them. Take 1 for 4 days, then switch to another for 4 days and keep doing this so that the candida cannot mutate and get stronger.

All of the natural remedies I've tried are worthless and get hydrolized in the upper GI tract before they even have a chance to go and do what they're supposed to. They may show great effects IN VITRO, but are worthless where they're needed which is in the lower GI tract. That's why Nystatin was so damned effective for me for many years. Unfortunately, no one told me to NOT use it alone and for as long as I did, and I relapsed, struggling for the last 18 mos. to find an effective replacement program. The docs just didn't know back then (mid to late 80's). As far as rotation every few days, I'm sorry, I just don't believe in that. I also don't believe what I did was right - staying on a single drug for as long as I did - BUT, I believe one needs to bombard the gut and tissues with 2 or more powerful meds simultaneously and pulse it like 2 mos. on, 1 mo. off. I personally feel that rotating every few days doesn't give the meds enough time to saturate and have even heard it can contribute to resistant strains because of this! It's just too individual for me to figure out. I just finished Dr. Cranton's protocol because, from all my research, it sounded like the only effective protocol for my situation (www.drcranton.com). For approx. 60 days, I took 1g daily of Fungizone (Amphotericin-B) for topical yeast, which is many x's more potent and broader spectrum than Nystatin which is so weak he wonders how it even worked, and 100 mg daily of Sporanox (for any hard to reach tissues). In the "background" of his main protocol, I have also been using Caprol oil (liquid caprylic acid). I eat raw garlic 2-3 times a week, take a little Biocidin (very infrequently), and take many strains of probiotics in large doses. I am 100% off fruits, but notice no change in my well-being if I sneak a banana or apple in very infrequently. I really have to overdo fruits to notice any difference. I guess I'm staying off them for now until I'm more sure of things. Since off the meds (about a week now), I do have to report feeling a bit better, although the GI symptoms persist. After my brief experimentation with the plant enzymes, I did go back on the HCL and Biogest with meals and the itching is not worse, but better, so I guess it's NOT the HCL that is the cause. Not gone yet, though. I heard rutin helps the itching? Dr. C. did tell me that it woould take approx. 2 mos. after the dual meds protocol before I really notice a difference, however. His feeling is - that if my symptoms still persist following the 2 mos. off the meds after the 60 days on them - it cannot be yeast causing my symptoms at that point.

I do agree with you that the weakest strains die first leaving the strongest to mutate and multiply.

I guess it wouldn't hurt to get your protocol for getting these resistant strains under control, especially if you had tue success and lived (hee hee)! Even though I see things differently in terms of treatment now, I am still a student, as we will always be, so I must always have an open mind to hear all opinions as to treatment, so fire away!

A better way to thin your blood is to take bromelain. Better yet, get Quercetin/Bromelain by NOW (the company NOW). Take 2 capsules, 3x a day. This will thin your blood very well. If your under the care of a doctor, s/he will not likely take it seriously although it works better than asprin. Fish oil, vitamin E are two others that will thin your blood. I think bromelain is the best for this. Plus, bromelain has action against yeast when taken on an empty stomach, so, you are killing two birds with one stone.

As far as the blood coag defect, since I haven't begun heparin therapy yet, I have already been using a lot of bromelain, Dale Alexander fish liver oil caps, 1200IU natural E, turmeric (on/off), cayenne, etc. According to the director of the lab who does the blood work and my doc (an D.O.), heparin is, by far, been shown to be more effective than the natural remedies, unfortunately.

By the way, what are some natural ways to help the stomach produce its own HCL? Taurine, Mg, anything else?

Thanks for responding!



Re: BAD REACTIONS from ENZYME SWITCH

Posted by Michael on July 30, 2001 at 04:52:53:

In Reply to: Re: BAD REACTIONS from ENZYME SWITCH posted by Walt Stoll on July 29, 2001 at 16:43:54:

Interesting - That's something I didn't know, however, if I've been taking pancreatin which contains lipase and ox bile extract (which I have been taking for many years), both which assist in digesting lipids, wouldn't that be enough??? Perhaps I need to up the pancreatine or just add a separate lipase enzyme supplement?



Re: BAD REACTIONS from ENZYME SWITCH (Archive in LGS.)

Posted by Walt Stoll on July 30, 2001 at 07:24:09:

In Reply to: Re: BAD REACTIONS from ENZYME SWITCH posted by Helping you on July 29, 2001 at 11:49:08:

Thanks, Helping.

Walt

Follow Ups:


Re: BAD REACTIONS from ENZYME SWITCH

Posted by Helping you on July 30, 2001 at 11:12:02:

In Reply to: Re: BAD REACTIONS from ENZYME SWITCH posted by Michael on July 30, 2001 at 04:46:04:

I want to keep this as simple as I can for you. It seems you are already in a complicated situation.

I think that taking all these enzymes, with no break, has actually weakened your digestion. Also, just like taking the same yeast killers every day eventually produces no results, same goes for enzyme supplements. You must at least rotate brands. Try Anzeo Pangeon from Metagenics. This is a very good pancreatic enzyme. WHAT WAS YOUR DOSE OF PANCREATIC ENZYMES? You may be taking too much (evidence is in elevated chymotrypsin)

The idea behind the plant enzymes, is that they spare the pancreas of is own release of enzymes, and,....the enzyme act as a primer for HCL levels. Your body will produce MORE HCL taking plant enzymes than with pancreatin. I think you have proved this being that your urine burns once taking these. You are excreting more acids. This is telling you to back off the HCL.

Ideally, you should wean yourself off ALL enzymes for 1 month. After one month, get the heidelburg test, and a repeat CDSA. Lets see what it says then. Enzyme therapy is only supposed to be used to get your digestion back on track. You have been using them as if you are unable to digest a single meal. Believe me, I can relate. I found that when I used less enzymes, my digestion was actually better after a while. Anyway, lets see what the CDSA says after allowing yourself to digest your own meals for a month. Then, you can add what you need according to the results. I believe the CDSA to be a useful and accurate tool as long as the doctor's interperation is accurate. These stool tests don't always pick up the correct bacteria but they really do reflect the present condition of your digestion. This is the best way. I think at this point, you are taking shots in the dark. Right now you have 3 variables you can't decifer--HCL, pancreatin, and plant enzymes. You aren't sure which is doing what at this point. sometimes, you need to start over. It sounds like I am listening to myself from a few years back. I understand EXACTLY what you are going through. You will do yourself a huge favor by finding the correct TYPE of enzyme and the correct FORM of enzyme. I hope you will try this. Wean yourself off ALL enzymes. If you have difficulty with some symptoms, take natural enzymes in the form of raw foods or fermented foods. having a little of these which each meal is often suficient to digest your meal. Herbs to increase HCL are ginger, apple cidar vinegar, chamomile, gentian.

What you said about digesting the fiber really caught my attention. Fiber IS the only food substance we cannot digest because our bodies do not contain cellulase enzymes. However, I doubt that the measly 120cu's of cellulase in most enzyme formulas is going to make a huge impact on your feces. You would have to take a ton of cellulase enzymes. maybe 100,000cu's in order to have that problem in the long term. If it happend to you, consider your fear of the problem contributing just as much as the enzyme. I am telling you that from a scientific standpoint, it is like trying to kill an elephant with a be-be gun. It is not likely. I wouldn;t worry too much about that. I know hundreds of people on plant enzymes and this is the first I am hearing of something like this. Like I said, I think it is best to give them a rest and allow your body to do something.

As far as the yeast killers go, the natural agents out there are the best at handling the super-strain yeasts -------caprylic acid, SF722, berberine, volitle oils, DC3. You say they get hydrolyzed in the upper intestine. How do you know that?



Re: BAD REACTIONS from ENZYME SWITCH

Posted by Michael on July 30, 2001 at 18:41:45:

In Reply to: Re: BAD REACTIONS from ENZYME SWITCH posted by Helping you on July 30, 2001 at 11:12:02:

I see your point about weaning off the HCL and enzymes, but you also advise to change brands/rotate. Which is the better way to go? I don't know. I am afraid to completely stop the HCL. I still get no burning sensation which would be my stomach's way of telling me I need to decrease the HCL and I only get that if I don't eat a protein-rich meal. Also - the fact I got a horrible acid belch when I stopped it shows I need it as well. In any case, I still will do the Heidelberg just to make certain.

As far as the enzymes, that's more complex. I checked out the Metagenics product you mentioned. Their product is much more potent than what I've been taking. I see they also make a product called Spectrazyme which has a very broad range of enzymes. Much different than I'm taking also. The Biogest product I've been taking for the last 10 years contains the following per capsule (I have been taking 3 caps per meal):
Betaine HCL-240mg
Glutamic Acid HCL-240mg
Ox Bile Concentrate-40mg
Pure Pancreatin-70mg
Pure Pepsin-35mg

In addition, I have been taking 4-6 520mg (8 grains) of Betaine HCL with 20mg pepsin with meals.

Dr. Stoll mentioned that the rectal itch could be due to undigested fatty acids (see his post). That being the case, since I'm not digesting lipids, then wouldn't I need to be on some type of enzyme product (perhaps the Azeo Pangen) that has higher amounts of lipase?

So again, the question becomes - do I rotate or go off completely? Or perhaps stop the pancreatin and use plant enzymes in place but stay on the HCL no matter what?

My current GI symptoms since resuming the HCL and Biogest: smelly, mushy stools that sink. This wasn't the case when I used these products before, so it is difficult to tell whether they are causing or contributing to these symptoms. The rectal itch is less when I am ON the HCL and enzymes, but is not gone completely.

By the way, I wanted to clarify that my chymotrypsin was high, but not outside normal range (39.2 - ref range: 6.2-41.0). My n-Butyrate level has been consistently elevated I noticed.

As usual, thanks for your advice.


Follow Ups:


Re: BAD REACTIONS from ENZYME SWITCH

Posted by Michael on July 30, 2001 at 20:51:53:

In Reply to: Re: BAD REACTIONS from ENZYME SWITCH posted by Helping you on July 30, 2001 at 11:12:02:

Another theory popped into mind that I wanted to run by you. I'm thinking that the majority of my current symptoms are from malabsorption of proteins and fatty acids perhaps. Specifically, I wonder if the chronic tremor I've had since I've relapsed is because of faulty fatty acid metabolism since not getting enough EFAs I heard can affect the nerves? Perhpas it time to stop blaming ALL symptoms on the yeast?

Follow Ups:


Re: BAD REACTIONS from ENZYME SWITCH

Posted by Michael on July 30, 2001 at 23:45:24:

In Reply to: Re: BAD REACTIONS from ENZYME SWITCH posted by Helping you on July 30, 2001 at 11:12:02:


Here is an excerpt from a article that mades perfect sense to me:

"Having friendly intestinal flora is not an option just for a healthy gastrointestinal tract but for a healthy immune system as well. Why observing the quality of stools is so important is that when the stools are not healthy in appearance, neither will be the patient. Obtaining healthy stools is a pre-requisite for recovery from most of the illnesses of civilization. Briefly, when you have unhealthy stools and bad flora in the gut, you will have an excess of ammonia produced by those unfriendly flora and this will throw your saliva and urine pH out of balance and along with it hundreds of vital enzymes throughout the body - enzymes that not only control digestion but help in the production of energy in the body and the removal of waste matter and toxins. Toxemia (self-poisoning) is the result of having an intestinal tract loaded with e-coli, candida, parasites and other pathogens. There is more. You need friendly flora to produce short chain fatty acids like lactic, acetic, butyric and others that create an internal environment hostile to the flora that cause illness and you need these same friendly flora (acidophilus and bifidobacteria) to produce these short chain fatty acids to stimulate the growth of mucus membranes throughout the intestinal tract and mucin, the intestinal lubricant. You need healthy mucus membranes as much as you need healthy skin. The mucus membranes of the gastrointestinal tract (GI) tract are critical to prevent leaky gut syndrome, acid reflux syndrome, ulcers, allergies, etc. You canít have mucosal immunity without healthy mucus membranes. When the intestinal tract has insufficient mucus membranes, it leads to absorption of foreign proteins (byproducts of
digestion) and to a TH2 cytokine immune response (IL-6 and IL-10). The resulting overload of toxins absorbed from the intestines overstimulates your humoral immunity and weakens your cell mediated immunity. Failure to have an adequate amount of butyric and acetic acid in the colon impairs the absorption of calcium, magnesium and dozens of trace minerals leading to endocrine and hormonal imbalances, conditions like insomnia, osteoporosis, high blood pressure and many other imbalances. Bifido bacteria and the short chain fatty acids are virtually non-existent in all persons with AIDS, cancer, lyme, hepatitis, multiple allergies and chemical sensitivities and chronic fatigue syndrome. Because
the short chain fatty acids are not in the stools is why they sink. Taking yet another multiple vitamin and mineral supplement is not the answer. Most of the fiber
supplements and friendly flora supplements on the market are helpful but the best formula we have discovered is the fiber, pectin and probiotic blends like 841,
84211 and other variations."

Okay. So most every symptom can be traced to problems with the gut! I believe it - especially in my case.

Here are some questions, though, that have me perplexed:

1) Like the article says, pH can get out of whack when the flora is screwed up. My urine pH is consistently acidic (5.0-5.5) and my saliva is consistently alkaline (7.0). I take heavy doses of Custom Probiotics blends (L. acidophilus, L. plantarum, L. casei, L. reuteri, B. bifidum, B. longum, L. bulgaricus) usually on an empty stomach with some fiber like psyllium, pectin, DGL, etc. I don't know why my pH would be off then. Any thoughts?

2)the article says that adequate levels of butyric acid is necessary for gut health, etc., but I showed high levels, so why wouldn't my stools be perfect? Furthermore, I read on the Great Smokies CDSA that pathogenic bacteria produce SCFAs like butyrate? I thought only the good bacteria does. This contradicts what the article emphasizes.

3) Someone told me not to take any probiotics, especially bifidobacteria because it can worsen Small Bowel Bacterial Overgrowth (SBBO). All the artciles I've read contradict this. Is this true or not?




Re: BAD REACTIONS from ENZYME SWITCH

Posted by Helping you on July 31, 2001 at 01:05:13:

In Reply to: Re: BAD REACTIONS from ENZYME SWITCH posted by Michael on July 30, 2001 at 23:45:24:

I see your frustration on this point. Your pH is still off because of the candida infection and imbalanced SCFA's. high butyrate levels are indicate of colitis or colon inflammation. having too much of anything is not good. It is wize not to take probiotics while fighting candida becuase they become food for the candida. A soil-organism product like Primal Defense is much more suitable during a candida infection. Your gut will not be working right as long as candida is there. You must eliminate the candida first.



Re: BAD REACTIONS from ENZYME SWITCH

Posted by Michael on July 31, 2001 at 06:13:43:

In Reply to: Re: BAD REACTIONS from ENZYME SWITCH posted by Helping you on July 31, 2001 at 01:05:13:

Woah! Probiotics food for candida? That's quite a statement & a complete contradiction from EVERYTHING we've been told from day one! That's like a tidal wave in the opposite direction and would rock the entire probiotic program universe. Are you saying we're all being misled then? I think I have heard that once somewhere before, but never believed it and still doubt that. Is there any real research to substantiate that? Is there any fact to back up what you're saying? I have also heard that the probios can become food for the HSOs, but again, where's the research to support this?

If anything, lactic acid and natural antibiotic producers like L. acidophilus, casei, plantarum, reuteri, bulgaricus, as well as S. boulardii should help control yeast, and what about the much-needed immune benefits from all these strains plus the need for B. longum, without which, my stools would never float?

Most docs feel there is not enough in the literature on HSOs and the jury's still out on whether they're potentially pathogenic - or not. What are your thoughts? You just never know who to believe, and meanwhile, you're popping all these pills, powders, liquids not really knowing 100% if you're hurting or helping yourself! Hmmm - perhaps that's why I'm not getting better, I ask?

Okay, let's say I cut back on the high doses of probios. What about just eating yogurt & kefir, as they have built-in enzymes and a natural living symbiotic balance of beneficial flora? I love the kefir I use. It is from raw goat milk. The yeasts in it are in a natrual balance & are supposed to be beneficial and help fight candida. When I first started drinking this kefir, my stools changes dramatically at first, nice healthy, bulky floaters, then changed. Perhaps I'm just doing too much by taking added probios on top of the kefir? You are right by saying my program is way complex.

BTW, I am very familiar with Primal Defense, Perfect Food and Goatein and used all of them on/off each week. All 3 products have the HSOs in them. I had been taking up to 6 caps of the PD for about a year & never noticed any difference with the Primal Defense, though. I ran out of PD in the last week or so.

Also -I have to ask you this, but do you market any supplements, and if so, which ones? What is your background? Are you a health care practitioner?




Re: BAD REACTIONS from ENZYME SWITCH

Posted by Walt Stoll on July 31, 2001 at 07:47:02:

In Reply to: Re: BAD REACTIONS from ENZYME SWITCH posted by Michael on July 30, 2001 at 04:52:53:

Michael.

Either or both (at the same time) might help. Your bodymind laboratory is your best guide.

Let us know what works for YOU.

Walt

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Re: BAD REACTIONS from ENZYME SWITCH (Archive in LGS.)

Posted by Walt Stoll on July 31, 2001 at 08:22:12:

In Reply to: Re: BAD REACTIONS from ENZYME SWITCH posted by Michael on July 30, 2001 at 23:45:24:

Hi, Michael.

Helping has some good ideas.

MY suggestion would be for you to take a couple of steps back from the problem and look at the picture.

None of this can happen without LGS first reducing your own enzymes, screwing up your bacterial balance and opening you up to parasitic problems & hypersensitivities. Since you supposedly started with a good and normal balance--which it then took a LOT to unbalance--what is going to prevent it from recurring without resolving what got you out of whack in the first place?

Hope this helps.

Walt

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Re: BAD REACTIONS from ENZYME SWITCH

Posted by Helping you on July 31, 2001 at 11:48:28:

In Reply to: Re: BAD REACTIONS from ENZYME SWITCH posted by Michael on July 31, 2001 at 06:13:43:

Probiotics ONLY become food for "bugs", when the bugs outnumber the probiotics. I am not sure if there are any research studies to suggest this. I do know that it takes people twice as long to get well when they are taking probiotics as opposed to just antifungals. Once the antifungals kill off enough bugs, the probiotics can be taken and they will eat up the remaining bugs. If the probiotics can eat the bugs, is it so much of a stretch that the bugs could eat the probiotics when outnumbering them? It's a question that is yet to be answered in the lab but logic would dictate that it is possible if not likely.

I think you are better off taking antifungals without probiotics IN ANY FORM. I would do this for at least 2 months. Keep your diet sugar-free of course. Rotate your antifungals.

The HSO's are not pathogenic because they have been eaten for thousands of years on fruits and vegetables that were naturally occuring in the ground. They contributed to overall health of the person and there is much research to document it. Since sterilization of soil is increasing, HSO's are not as plentiful as they used to be. I have never heard of anybody getting worse (maybe temporarily as die-off progressed) or getting sicker from HSO's. Only the opposite.

Your best bet yet would be to get to a doctor that can test you to see what organisms you DO have. He/she would also be able to test for enzyme deficiency and other imbalances. With this type of info, treatment time is reduced because specific measures are taken that apply only to YOU. That would be my best and ultimate suggestion. That is how I got well. I learned of the strains of bacteria I had. I learned of my enyzme deficiencies and a treatment plan was devised. I changed my diet, and added a few whole-food supplements including Primal Defense. I was completely rid of candida in 6 months. That is MUCH longer than it should take most but my strain mutated so many times that it was like killing superman!! :)



To michael regarding..........

Posted by Helping you on July 31, 2001 at 12:01:22:

In Reply to: Re: BAD REACTIONS from ENZYME SWITCH posted by Michael on July 30, 2001 at 23:45:24:

Michael, Dr. Stoll is all too right. For me, a high-sugar diet and chronic total body bracing were the causes for my LGS, IBS, arthritis-like pain, gas, bloating, anxiety, depression, and the list goes on. The most powerful thing you can do to bring yourself back into balance is SR. After this, other benficial changes would be to balance your diet to your body chemistry. Metabolic typing is the best. Without an antifungal program, NOTHING will eliminate candida from your intestinal tract. Even if you manage to heal your LGS without removing candida, the candida will eventually cause the LGS to return.

In my mind, there are only a few factors that can cause your body to be thrown out of balance:

1) Stress - creates bracing which throws you off in every conceivable way
2) Diet - inappropriate diet does not allow your body's homeostatic control systems to function optimally/balanced.

The only other factors are a direct result of stress and diet. This includes 3) toxins, microbes, heavy metals. So, knowing what causes your body to move away from optimal health will help you devise a program to get you back on track. It's the same for everyone. The difference is, the persons genetic make-up decides what symptoms will prevail. Hopefully, this information lifts you up instead of bogging you down.



Re: BAD REACTIONS from ENZYME SWITCH

Posted by Michael on August 01, 2001 at 05:29:55:

In Reply to: Re: BAD REACTIONS from ENZYME SWITCH posted by Helping you on July 31, 2001 at 11:48:28:

Ok - so what about just eating yogurt & kefir, as they have built-in enzymes and a natural living symbiotic balance of beneficial flora? I love the kefir I use. It is from raw goat milk. The yeasts in it are in a natrual balance & are supposed to be beneficial and help fight candida.

In conjunction with the kefir, I take Goatein, PD, and Perfect Food, and GlutImmune (covalent bonded glutamine). I ask myself, do I really need all the additional probios anyway with taling these foods, right?

Lastly, you mentioned that colitis and inflammation are present as evidenced by my stool exam. Is there anything you recommend that I haven't mentioned I'm doing or taking?

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Re: BAD REACTIONS from ENZYME SWITCH

Posted by Michael on August 01, 2001 at 05:35:11:

In Reply to: Re: BAD REACTIONS from ENZYME SWITCH posted by Helping you on July 31, 2001 at 11:48:28:

Only thing I was concerned with the PD (and other Gan Eden products) was that they all conmtained Saccharomyces cerevisiae, baker's yeast, according to the label. What are your thoughts on this?



Re: BAD REACTIONS from ENZYME SWITCH

Posted by Helping you on August 01, 2001 at 13:43:31:

In Reply to: Re: BAD REACTIONS from ENZYME SWITCH posted by Michael on August 01, 2001 at 05:35:11:

This is a non-pathogenic yeast. It serves good purpose in the intestinal tract including rasing Segretory IgA and healing the GI mucosa



Re: BAD REACTIONS from ENZYME SWITCH

Posted by Michael on August 01, 2001 at 16:29:17:

In Reply to: Re: BAD REACTIONS from ENZYME SWITCH posted by Helping you on August 01, 2001 at 13:43:31:

Are you sure you're not confusing it with S. boulardii because that's what I heard about this strain, not S. cerevisiae?

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Re: BAD REACTIONS from ENZYME SWITCH

Posted by Michael on August 01, 2001 at 16:33:34:

In Reply to: Re: BAD REACTIONS from ENZYME SWITCH posted by Helping you on August 01, 2001 at 13:43:31:

Repeat message:

Ok - so what about just eating yogurt & kefir, as they have built-in enzymes and a natural living symbiotic balance of beneficial flora? I love the kefir I use. It is from raw goat milk. The yeasts in it are in a natrual balance & are supposed to be beneficial and help fight candida.
In conjunction with the kefir, I take Goatein, PD, and Perfect Food, and GlutImmune (covalent bonded glutamine). I ask myself, do I really need all the additional probios anyway with taling these foods, right?
Lastly, you mentioned that colitis and inflammation are present as evidenced by my stool exam. Is there anything you recommend that I haven't mentioned I'm doing or taking?

Another theory popped into mind that I wanted to run by you. I'm thinking that the majority of my current symptoms are from malabsorption of proteins and fatty acids perhaps. Specifically, I wonder if the chronic tremor I've had since I've relapsed is because of faulty fatty acid metabolism since not getting enough EFAs I heard can affect the nerves? Perhpas it time to stop blaming ALL symptoms on the yeast?


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Re: To michael regarding.......... (Archive in candida.)

Posted by Walt Stoll on August 02, 2001 at 07:52:29:

In Reply to: To michael regarding.......... posted by Helping you on July 31, 2001 at 12:01:22:

Thanks, Helping!

You have a way of making complex explanations simple!

Thanks from all of us for your participation!

Namaste`

Walt

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