Leaky Gut Syndrome archives

Robert: Good Experience, Bad Experience & More???

Posted by Lori Reid on August 27, 1998 at 00:52:13:

Hi Bob,

First more of my "bad" experience. Reaction to pizza continues: in the night my joints did stiffen up and today I had a really bad attitude, negative thoughts (I'm never going to get caught up, house is a mess, I'm a terrible mother, etc. etc) were really hard to shake until I realized that I haven't really had a day like that since I've been eating the HG diet. I realized that the bad attitude and cravings I was having today were probably part of the reaction to eating those wrong foods!! It made it a lot easier to keep from giving into more cravings and getting sucked down into that sugar hole again. Then when I fixed myself the simplest thing, a plate of chicken thigh chunks sauteed in olive oil with half an avacodo on the side, it was almost comforting like you would think of your favorite food that you were addicted to used to be. I couldn't think of anything that I would rather have, no wishing for a sugary desert or can of mountain dew. It was very very nice to feel that way about a meal that was good for me compared to the way it used to be.

The other good experience was when I went to get my GP to take blood for that candida antibody test. I explained to the nurse what I wanted and she said "sounds like you've been doing your homework, good job" (pleasant surprise #1). Then before the dr came in the room I heard the nurse telling the dr about it. The dr says "well then she doesn't need to see me, send her to the lab and have them do what she wants, that way we don't have to charge her for an office visit" (pleasant surprise #2). Then she poked her head in the door to see if I needed something for my yeast infection right now, I told her no that I had the diflucan but you said to get a 6 mo course of the lamisil or sporanox. Then she said I'll perscribe it but to ask you what dosage to use (pleasant surprise #3). So what dosage do I have her perscribe? It is so nice to be working with such an open minded and helpful dr. (Not to mention all the GREAT help you've been)

OK that's about it, I'll quit rambling.

THANKS THANKS THANKS

Lori


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craving good food

Posted by Pam on August 27, 1998 at 02:37:46:

In Reply to: Robert: Good Experience, Bad Experience & More??? posted by Lori Reid on August 27, 1998 at 00:52:13:

Lori,

I laughed out loud when I read your message, because I had such a similar experience. After an awful reaction to wheat and tomatoes, I couldn't wait to have a beautiful salad made of all my "tested and safe" foods. And BOY did that allergic reaction make me GROUCHY. So do you think Bob should put that in the book...

"testimonials verify that adherence to this diet improves your attitude and makes you nicer to be around..."

Namaste,
Pam




Re: Robert: Good Experience, Bad Experience & More???

Posted by Robert McFerran on August 27, 1998 at 14:49:11:

In Reply to: Robert: Good Experience, Bad Experience & More??? posted by Lori Reid on August 27, 1998 at 00:52:13:

Lori,

I am a bit quilt stricken this afternoon after reading your note. You see, many of the things that are happening to you and the other folks trying the elimination diet are things that I KNEW would happen. I chose not to alert you to them since I think it's better that you experience it rather than anticipate it.

I remember after having a SEVERE food reaction (wheat was my personal worst) that while I was waiting to 'clear' the reaction that I would go into a pretty profound funk. We are talking big time depression. The first time it happened I thought that the sun would never rise again. Then when it happened with another food I KNEW that I just had to be patient and wait for it to clear -- but that day or so would feel like forever.

Wow! Sounds like you have a no-nonsense physician that doesn't care about the politics of medicine but rather about getting you well. I cannot/will not suggest what dose for the lamisil that she should prescribe (since I'm not a doctor) but the standard dose for lamisil is one 250 mg tablet per day. I've done very well using this standard dose over a 6 month period. This, by the way, is the same dose that a doc would prescribe to get you over a case of toe-nail fungus. As Walt always points out, you should get a copy of the package insert for any drug you are taking and read it to familiarize yourself with risks and side effects.

Of course before you start taking anything we'll want to see the results from your blood test.



Re: Robert: Good Experience, Bad Experience & More???

Posted by Walt Stoll on August 28, 1998 at 10:34:28:

In Reply to: Robert: Good Experience, Bad Experience & More??? posted by Lori Reid on August 27, 1998 at 00:52:13:

Dear Lori,

HANG ON TO THAT DOC & NURSE!

Which drug are you asking the dosage question about? Diflucan, Sporanox or Lamisil?

I would not use any of them. If you are doing what it takes to get rid of WHY you have the candida, I would use Nystatin Powder, at 750,000 units 4 times a day on an empty stomach.

If you are treating toenail fungus at the same time, I would use the vinegar protocol since it is just as effective and costs practically nothing.

Let me know.

Walt



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Re: Robert: Good Experience, Bad Experience & More???

Posted by Robert McFerran on August 28, 1998 at 12:18:31:

In Reply to: Re: Robert: Good Experience, Bad Experience & More??? posted by Walt Stoll on August 28, 1998 at 10:34:28:

Walt,

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with the use of Nystatin over Lamisil or Sporanox for folks with a severe case of candidiasis.

There isn't ANY antifungal drug that has the safety of nystatin but I've also seen too many times where it is not effective and sporanox or lamisil are. I think the problem is (as you already know) that yeast overgrowth is not just a surface phenomenon. The nystatin is unsurpassed in killing on the surface but it isn't absorbed by the gut (the reason for it's impressive safety) and can't address areas where candida albicans can hide.

At the same time I've witnesses more difficulty in getting the prescription for nystatin filled! Many group health plans negotiate with the drug companies for HUGE discounts on their drugs. Apparently the makers of Nystatin won't give much in the way of discounts and insurers force their docs to prescribe cheaper alternatives. I personally fought this one without success.

Bob


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Nystatin Powder

Posted by PeggyH on August 28, 1998 at 17:15:00:

In Reply to: Re: Robert: Good Experience, Bad Experience & More??? posted by Walt Stoll on August 28, 1998 at 10:34:28:


I keep reading about the Nystatin . . . is that a prescription medication or something else? What kind of substance is it? If prescription, will any ole' doctor write it out for you.

PeggyH



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Re: Robert: (Nystatin vs oral antifungals)

Posted by Walt Stoll on August 29, 1998 at 13:23:44:

In Reply to: Re: Robert: Good Experience, Bad Experience & More??? posted by Robert McFerran on August 28, 1998 at 12:18:31:

Hi, Bob.

I guess we are just going to have to agree to disagree.

When I first began to recognize this condition I, too, understood it to have "incomplete cell-wall organisms" beyond the intestinal lumen. However, as I learned more, I became convinced that all of the systemic effects were due to the immune system's response to the fungal form INSIDE the gut lumen. The little mycelia DO grow through the wall but the body of the organism stays inside the gut where it is susceptible to the Nystatin.

Used properly, pure Nystatin powder is much less expensive than anything else mentioned here AND totally safe as well. Used properly, it is also more effective. Most physicians do not know how to use it properly since it takes a little patient education. I used to buy it in bulk (many suppliers to holistic practitioners supply it this way) and sell it to my patients for little more than cost. It took me about 30 minutes a month to parcel it out & print the specific lables the patient needed to know how to take it right. It is SO much easier to just have people take a pill. A Nystatin pill will not work at all.

I have yet to see a patient that eliminated it from the gut who had any more problem. In MY opinion, those who use the expensive, dangerous, systemic antifungal medications are not yet up to knowing how this works.

It is allright for us to disagree. Time will tell. I would be interested in seeing any research that says that C-RS has organisms outside the gut lumen (like I used to think).

Namaste` Walt



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Re: Nystatin Powder

Posted by Walt Stoll on August 29, 1998 at 13:54:05:

In Reply to: Nystatin Powder posted by PeggyH on August 28, 1998 at 17:15:00:

Dear PeggyH,

Nystatin Powder USP is only available by prescription. However, it should be available across the counter since it is one of the few substances that has only a local (inside the gut) effect & has no side effects (since it never gets inside the body). One could recover unchanged, from the stool, every molecule of Nystatin taken orally.

It is available "by prescription only" only because MDs want to get their cut by writing the prescription. FEW MDS know how to prescribe it which is one of the problems with getting docs to prescribe it for the patient that knows more about what they need than the doc (embarassing for the doc, too) ( I have even seen docs so ignorant about this that they prescribed the topical powder which is about 90% talcum powder [and says right on the bottle that it is not ever to be taken internally])

The proper way to use Nystatin Powder USP is: 750,000 units of the powder 4 times a day on an empty stomach (at least an hour before or 2 hours after a meal); the dose is to be sloshed around in the mouth for a couple of minutes before swallowing (the candida organism grows in the mouth as the first part of the gut. If it is not treated there, it just keeps recolonizing the gut every time you swallow.).
Used any other way, it is likely to be much less effective.

Walt




Re: Robert: (Nystatin vs oral antifungals)

Posted by Robert McFerran on August 29, 1998 at 16:27:53:

In Reply to: Re: Robert: (Nystatin vs oral antifungals) posted by Walt Stoll on August 29, 1998 at 13:23:44:

Walt,

I'll be sharing my research in the part of the book that deals with the candida phenomenon. It will be a very new look at what can be done to try and not only kill candida with drugs but to also develop the immunity to resist future infections. I don't want to get into it now but it involves things like the importance of humoral immunity, secretory IGA, peyers patches and other cells along the distal portion of the intestinal wall.

I did extensive research on folks with chronic mucotaneous candidiasis. In those cases the systemic antifungals were far superior than nystatin -- and for good reason -- the individuals with this condition seemingly had no innate resistance to the candida organism at all. You could inject candida antibody in them and they wouldn't get the normal wheal response.

While most physicians consider chronic mucotaneous candidiasis an inborn error I'm convinced that usually it is not. Too many people are fine for years before developing it. Prior to developing this condition they exhibit several of the symptoms that folks on this BB describe every day. I believe there is a COMPLETE breakdown of the humoral immune system and a subsequent altering of cellular immunity. Humoral immunity must be re-built if there is EVER a chance to re-establish resistance to the ubiquitous candida organism.

I'm not in love with the sporanox and the lamisil either. Many of the folks with chronic mucotaneous candidiasis did do better with these SYSTEMIC drugs BUT in many it had little effect. You and I are aware that there are cases where two persons have the same infection and are given the same drug. One immediately recovers while the other doesn't. You know that there is a lot more going on in the eradication of the infection than the drug. The drug is just an assist to the immune system. It's no doubt the same way with anti-fungals.

Bob




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What is "humoral" immunity?

Posted by PeggyH on August 29, 1998 at 17:18:00:

In Reply to: Re: Robert: (Nystatin vs oral antifungals) posted by Robert McFerran on August 29, 1998 at 16:27:53:





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Re: What is "humoral" immunity?

Posted by Robert McFerran on August 30, 1998 at 00:30:25:

In Reply to: What is "humoral" immunity? posted by PeggyH on August 29, 1998 at 17:18:00:

Peggy,

This question is probably beyond the scope of this BB -- but you can use one of the search engines on the internet and see what pops up. Here is a hit that gives a quick and dirty overview.

Cell-Mediated Immunity (CMI)
Cellular Immunity

: The branch of the immune system in which the reaction to foreign material is performed
by specific defence cells (killer cells, macrophage and other white blood cells) rather than
antibodies.

Humoral Immunity
This refers to immunity to infection conferred by immunoglobulin

Any immune reaction that can be transferred with immune serum is termed humoral
immunity (as opposed to cell-mediated immunity). In general, this term refers to resistance
that results from the presence of specific antibody.

THE HUMORAL IMMUNE SYSTEM One level is called the HUMORAL system. The
humoral system involves the soluble ANTIBODIES described above. These antibodies
circulate through the blood and lymph system. When blood is spun in centrifuge, the red
blood cells (RBC) fall or PELLET to the bottom of the tube, leaving behind a
straw-colored liquid called the SERUM. The antibodies are located in the blood serum.
Antibodies are made by SPECIAL B-CELLS, called PLASMA CELLS that make and
excrete antibody molecules.




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Re: Robert: (Nystatin vs oral antifungals)

Posted by Walt Stoll on August 30, 1998 at 09:52:57:

In Reply to: Re: Robert: (Nystatin vs oral antifungals) posted by Robert McFerran on August 29, 1998 at 16:27:53:

Dear Bob,

I agree with you completely so far as you go with this note.

I thought we were talking about C-RS. It is in THAT condition where our opinions differ.

Also, I have found that in those who have other forms of candida infestation, nearly all have C-RS. By effectively treating the C-RS, their other forms are much easier to treat the way you are describing.

ALL of my "managing the susceptibility" recommendations for people with C-RS are designed to improve the immunological resources normal people have that keeps ALL OF US from having this.

Walt

Namaste` Walt




Re: What is "humoral" immunity?

Posted by Walt Stoll on August 30, 1998 at 13:32:00:

In Reply to: What is "humoral" immunity? posted by PeggyH on August 29, 1998 at 17:18:00:

Dear PeggyH,


I was in the middle of replying to this note when my system crashed again. It apparently took your note with it. I do not understand how THAT could happen but it did.

Anyhow, there is a distinct difference between the 2 kinds of immunity (presently known): cellular & humoral.

Humoral relates to the immune globulins that circulate throughout the body and cellular (that works in an entirely different way--and doesn't respond to the usual diagnostic or therapeutic "allergy" approach conventionally used).

If you will send your note again so I can be sure I am answering what you asked---------------

Walt




So What Is One To Do To Eradicate Candida-DR./Mr. McFerran?

Posted by phil on August 30, 1998 at 23:55:44:

In Reply to: Re: What is "humoral" immunity? posted by Robert McFerran on August 30, 1998 at 00:30:25:

Dear Dr. Stoll and Mr. McFerran:
I've been reading this thread with great interest since I have a candida infection. And its the first time I've ever heard that there was more than one kind of infection.(C-RS and mucotaneous). Your assorted comments about how to treat also confused me a bit. So...

Once a person gets a good diet in place, skilled relaxation, and exercise for say 9-12 months what is the best protocol to address the candida?
1.Nystatin for 3-6 months, see how it works?then(if not)...
2. One of the next drugs mentioned(if not)...
3.??????

Where do natural remedies fit in?
Why do some people heal with olive leaf extract, some with nystatin and some have resistance to all the above(I imagine its based on immunity)?

Does research show that skilled relaxation can heal any or all the above (in addition to the leaky gut) or that it will mostly/always improve immunity enough to make the last steps easier?

I could go on and apologize as to length. But this has been very frustrating issue for me. I'm into the program offered on this board now for about 4 months, don't see any drastic improvements yet but believe in the efficacy of what you BOTH have to say.
Thanks,Phil




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Re: So What Is One To Do To Eradicate Candida-DR./Mr. McFerran?

Posted by Robert McFerran on August 31, 1998 at 01:44:04:

In Reply to: So What Is One To Do To Eradicate Candida-DR./Mr. McFerran? posted by phil on August 30, 1998 at 23:55:44:

Phil,

I've been trying to unlock answers to the questions that you've been asking for the last five years.

During that time I found that very little new had been added to anti-candida protocols since those of Dr. Orion Truss who reported the phenomenon almost 20 years ago. Most of what we have heard has been a regurgitation with some refinements of Dr. Truss' ideas. Dr. Stoll should be commended with breaking ranks and prescribing skilled relaxation as part of a yeast controlling prescription.

I've found that starving the yeast with a low carbohydrate/high protein diet is not appropriate for everyone -- in fact it's not optimal for ANYONE.

There is a huge amount of misdiagnosis and misinformation surrounding intestinal candidiasis. Cure rates with various natural remedies as well as prescription drugs are largely anecdotal since there is no real agreement to what quantifies intestinal candidiasis in the first place. Next and more importantly is the degree to which this opportunistic organism has damaged immune function.

When I looked at the problem I STARTED with chronic mucocutaneous candidiasis. We know two things (for sure) about folks with this disease. They DO have widespread and uncontrolled yeast overgrowth AND they have quantifiable damage to both humoral and cellular immunity.

Allopathic medicine has sought to explain chronic mucocutaneous candidiasis as a genetic problem but after looking at various case studies it appears to me that it is usually just a terminal form of the same C-RS that can be characterized as limited yeast overgrowth in the small/large intestine with limited damage to humoral immunity and cellular immunity.

Damage to humoral immunity seems to be critically important.

If the damage is limited I believe the right diet, exercise, skilled relaxation, plus antifungal will allow immune function to normalize enough so that when the antifungal is removed that there will not be an immediate relapse. Sadly if humoral immunity is unresponsive to the candida organism there is no way it will control, much less detect, the opportunistic fungus.

So the question becomes how do you re-establish humoral immunity? There has been some work done in this area but there are no studies to support outcomes.

I have been working on a protocol that is currently being tested by several folks that fall into the severe yeast problem with immune system damage. The problem is the protocol takes a minimum of 6-12 months. Initial results should be available by year end.

Bob


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Re: So What Is One To Do To Eradicate Candida-DR./Mr. McFerran?

Posted by Walt Stoll on August 31, 1998 at 11:07:08:

In Reply to: So What Is One To Do To Eradicate Candida-DR./Mr. McFerran? posted by phil on August 30, 1998 at 23:55:44:

Dear Phil,

Bob has a good response today.

MY response may not answer all of your questions but ALL of us are just learning about this too.

First, I want to hear about all the anecdotal "cures" (from a specific treatment) a year or 2 after they had their initial results. I will bet that nearly ALL have recurred by then. There are MANY things that will create initial benefits. That is part of the problem! For those still looking for something to TAKE, to resolve this complex condition, they are doomed to eventual disappointment. However, their initial improvement will help them to continue to believe that there might actually BE a curative "treatment" (natural or otherwise).

You are already doing the basic stuff that ALL holistic practitioners of the world agree does the most to improve immunity and reverse the accumulation of stress-effect behind most of these chronic condidions.

First, I need to be assured that you have checked out your skilled relaxation with biofeedback so you KNOW that it is working AND that you are doing it at least twice a day. Without that, it will NOT resolve the LGS behind the C-RS.

Second, I need to know what you mean by a good diet. I have yet to see anyone permanently resolve C-RS without TOTAL elimination of REFINED carbohydrates for about 6 months (AND, I would not even try THAT unless I was ready to attack the candida for cure). This does not restrict whole carbohydrates in the least. The only publication I know of, that REALLY helps anyone to know what refined carbohydrates are, is Beth Loiselle, RD's book "The Healing Power of Whole Foods" that I have referenced so many times on this BB in association with those wanting to cure this problem. I would NEVER try a dietary approach to C-RS without that book.

There are too many people who are not doing the diet (a "whole-foods diet does not totally eliminate refined carbohydrates even though it would work better if it did) correctly and not bothering to check their relaxation technique with biofeedback (or doing it often enough). They kind of do it & then, when it isn't working say: "Well I tried that & IT didn't work. Now what should I do next?"

I have trouble conceiving of your not feeling much different after several months of doing the above right. Please let me know exactly what you are doing in all these 3 things. THEN, I can go from there.

Now to your second main question: I have detailed the treatment for C-RS, once the LGS is controlled, right here on the bb within the past few days. Save me some typing by looking it up. The immunity happens automatically as the LGS disappears.

Besides, since candida is but one of the several parasites such people have, I would send a few purged stool specimens to Great Smokies Labs to get as good a diagnosis as I could. Once one has lost their normal resistance to parasites (via LGS) just resolving the LGS is frequently not enough to get back to normal without attacking the complications of that breakdown.

Talk to me---------

Congratulations for what you have done so far!

Walt





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Re: So What Is One To Do To Eradicate Candida-DR./Mr. McFerran?

Posted by martha on August 31, 1998 at 16:40:20:

In Reply to: Re: So What Is One To Do To Eradicate Candida-DR./Mr. McFerran? posted by Walt Stoll on August 31, 1998 at 11:07:08:

Hi Walt: noone has mentioned nystatin creme for external
application. Of course I am doing the diet, skilled relax-ation and nystatin but the external application brought
great relief. Two doctor's refused to give me nystatin powder and I had a terrible rectal irritation. One said "it wasn't life threatening". Nystatin powder from a pharmacy is cheaper than Sporonex and I certainly do not want to risk side effects. Thanks Walt for pointing the
way. Martha


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Thanks Bob & Walt!!!

Posted by Lori Reid on August 31, 1998 at 17:30:02:

In Reply to: Re: So What Is One To Do To Eradicate Candida-DR./Mr. McFerran? posted by Robert McFerran on August 31, 1998 at 01:44:04:

Bob & Walt,

Thanks so much for having this discussion. It has sparked my interest to start to read The Yeast Connection Handbook by Dr. Crook and The Yeast Syndrome by Trowbridge & Walker, both of which I picked up a couple of months ago. I am learning so much more! That humoral and cell mediated immunity stuff is even starting to make sense! And of course I've already read Walt's book a while ago and all of the LGS archives here! It makes me feel better just knowing all of these little things that are adding up to a big stress on me, can be taken care of! I'm so excited to be well, having been not well virtually all of my life.

Thanks again guys!

Namaste`

Lori


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Re: So What Is One To Do To Eradicate Candida-DR./Mr. McFerran?

Posted by Walt Stoll on September 01, 1998 at 10:37:03:

In Reply to: Re: So What Is One To Do To Eradicate Candida-DR./Mr. McFerran? posted by martha on August 31, 1998 at 16:40:20:

Hi, Martha.

Just imagine the arrogance of those 2 docs refusing to write for Nystatin Powder! It is perhaps the only prescription drug that is 100% safe. I'll bet that if one of THEM had the rectal irritation (and knew enough to use the Nystatin Powder) they wouldn't hesitate to use it.

WHY IN THE WORLD WOULD ANYTHING HAVE TO BE "LIFE THREATENING" TO JUSTIFY TAKING SOMETHING THAT HAD NO SIDE EFFECTS & ZERO RISK?

These docs, with the same problem, would probably use hydrocortisone cream for the rest of their lives.

Walt




Re: Thanks Bob & Walt!!!

Posted by Walt Stoll on September 01, 1998 at 10:39:45:

In Reply to: Thanks Bob & Walt!!! posted by Lori Reid on August 31, 1998 at 17:30:02:

Thanks, Lori.

ALL of this is about giving people tools. The more you know, the better able you will be to use the tools properly.

I can only speak for myself but I know that MY reward is seeing someone like you actually get onto the path of understanding.

Namaste` walt




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