Candida Archives

Candida remedies - why no testing?

[ Candida Archive ]
[ Main Archives Page ] [ Glossary/Index ]
[ FAQ ] [ Recommended Books ] [ Bulletin Board ]
   Search this site!
 
        

Candida remedies - why no testing?

Posted by
bglick on April 02, 2002 at 03:13:38:

As the discovery of Candida, made popular by Dr. Crook in the 70's, it seems it has become somewhat of an epidemic. Of course this should not seem surprising considering the American super high carb diet.

What baffles me, is why aren't some of these anti yeast products ever tested? For example, why not take 50 of the most common yeats strains found in the human body and grow them in a petri dish, then expose them to all the different herbs, electrical currencies, cellulose destroyers, etc. Then with a microscope, see the effects each product has on the different strains of yeast. For example, if this Candex product is suppose to destroy ALL yeast cell walls...then why would the maker not run some tests? Or even have an independent lab run some tests? I can understand why companies don't do testing when it costs millions of dollars, but these tests can be done for a few thousand dollars at the most.... just the cost of running one advertisement for the product? It just seems odd to me that all this is such a "crap shoot" when answers can be had through simple generic testing, so as to at least have a starting point.
Of course the most obvious explanation of why a company does not have test results.... the product performance would hurt sales. If tests results would increase sales, then I feel they would have conducted and presented the results to the buying public.
As far as these companies not being allowed to make claims...they can use independent companies who are not selling product to produce reports provided by the testing company. Do others agree with me here? Very puzzling...



Re: Candida remedies - why no testing?

Posted by GregD on April 02, 2002 at 07:37:06:

In Reply to: Candida remedies - why no testing? posted by bglick on April 02, 2002 at 03:13:38:

What companies are you talking about??? Do you have a link to the product you descibe.

I am interested.


GregD



Re: Candida remedies - why no testing?

Posted by
bglick on April 02, 2002 at 12:43:04:

In Reply to: Re: Candida remedies - why no testing? posted by GregD on April 02, 2002 at 07:37:06:

Greg, my comments were based on all remedies, for example, the new product called Candex, I only found distributors not the maker, electrical frequency systems and the popular herbs used in anti candida formulas. I am not singling out anyone particular remedy, but rather the entire field.



Re: Candida remedies - why no testing?

Posted by GregD on April 02, 2002 at 13:19:51:

In Reply to: Re: Candida remedies - why no testing? posted by bglick on April 02, 2002 at 12:43:04:

Oh……ok I get it.


Well first...normal medical doctrine does not recognize Candida as a causative factor for many disease states in much the same way that helicobacter pylori was NOT accepted as the main causative factor in stomach ulcers (now it is commonly tested for, but it took Dr. Marshall, an Australian MD, many decades to convince the medical community of his findings way back in the 80's).

Because of this, not one pharmaceutical company is interested in finding a remedy..it is simply no good business.

Alternative therapies have been focussing on eradication of Candida with amazing results. The treatments now commonly used, either are based on herbs or, let me put is this way, on "common chemicals". No pharmaceutical company is interested in something they won't be able to get the exclusive rights to. The gap is bridged by companies that generally do not have to comply to specific drug rules, because they are not selling "prescription drugs", therefore they are not required to do the research.

The testing protocols you propose are not scientifically viable. The biochemical and cell biological analysis is much more complicated and also quite expensive (you wouldn’t believe how expensive). Also, yeasts are not generally grown in Petri-dishes, but rather in fermentation units (and again, these are expensive). If you want to evaluate if a particular component works, not only experiments under lab circumstances have to be performed (in the test tube), but also testing in lab animals, clinical trials in human volunteers etc etc…again, extremely expensive and time consuming. Furthermore, if something works in vitro (literally, in glass), it does not necessarily mean that it will work in cellulo (in the cell) or even in vivo (in an intact organisms), in infinitely more complex biochemical environments.
Our own research group just finished an extensive survey of the bioremedial effects of 125 natural antioxidants (how and in which concentration range they protect against free radicals). It took us 5 years just to elucidate the processes in isolated cell cultures. Now we have moved on to the next stage…testing in lab animals. We estimate that it will take another 3 years. So..you see…extremely difficult.

IOW … if you are NOT required to do the research by law, to get the substance approved .. why waste good money…especially because the general MDs won’t use your stuff anyway (to phrase it popularly)

Hope this helps


GregD
(Biochemist/Cell biologist)





Re: Candida remedies - why no testing?

Posted by BarbaraN on April 02, 2002 at 13:23:08:

In Reply to: Re: Candida remedies - why no testing? posted by GregD on April 02, 2002 at 13:19:51:

"Our own research group just finished an extensive survey of the bioremedial effects of 125 natural antioxidants (how and in which concentration range they protect against free radicals)."

And what was the conclusion? Want to be sure I'm taking the right ones :-)



Re: Candida remedies - why no testing?

Posted by Chemist on April 02, 2002 at 16:33:10:

In Reply to: Candida remedies - why no testing? posted by bglick on April 02, 2002 at 03:13:38:

I used to think getting candida back to the normal level in the gut was as easy as killing it off (with prescription and/or non-prescription drugs/herbs) and replacing the dead yeast with good bacteria.

This is a GROSS oversimplification of the complexities in dealing with a candida problem.

Unfortunately this is exactly how the 'experts' out there deal with it with a seeminly never-ending array of 'yeast-killing' products.

You might be surprised at how difficult it is to culture candida albicans outside the body. As an example, one study showed that candida could not be cultured in a medium devoid of zinc. Increasing the levels of zinc caused the candida albicans to multiply -- but there was a level of zinc that abruptly caused the zinc to die.

So should you take more or less zinc?

While very difficult to grow outside the body, candida albicans will multiply easily on or inside any dead or dying animal. You quickly realize it is the total ENVIRONMENT in which the candida thrives that is critical -- more critical than any 'anti-candida' compound.




Re: Candida remedies - why no testing?

Posted by
bglick on April 02, 2002 at 19:59:21:

In Reply to: Re: Candida remedies - why no testing? posted by GregD on April 02, 2002 at 13:19:51:

GregD, I appreciate your comments. I can now see how difficult testing is...so I guess this entire issue will remain a mystery for quite awhile. Even though treating yeast is truly a shot gun approach, I guess if there is a history of success, and you are sick enough, you try it! It's that simple...

Follow Ups:


Re: Candida remedies - why no testing?

Posted by GregD on April 03, 2002 at 04:25:58:

In Reply to: Re: Candida remedies - why no testing? posted by BarbaraN on April 02, 2002 at 13:23:08:

Hi Barb,

wat een geweldig weer heh .. kun je 't geloven..en dat in Holland.

As far as your question goes: The jury isn't in yet. We did show that in cellulo (in a cell culture), several compounds from vegetables and fruits are potent inhibitors of oxidative damage. Please do not confuse the words, antioxidant and vitamin, they are not synonymous, but often overlap in their function.

Good antioxidants are: Vit E (tocopherol, and in particular gamma-tocopherol, but it is difficult to isolate), Vit C (ascorbate), these have been known for quite some time, quercetin (from tomato), lycopene, Hydroxy-tyrosol (from virgin Olive Oil), chlorogenic acid and caffeic acid (from coffee), morin-hydrate, rutin-hydrate, taxifolin, epigallocatechin (from green tea), and a few dozen more. You won't recognize several of these components and they are not marketed yet by any company.

The most exciting result is basically that synergy between a water-soluble and lipid-soluble (fat soluble) antioxidant is more common in nature than we previously thought. Synergy means that the effect of the combination is larger than the effect of the sum of the individual components. Previously, only a synergistic interaction between Vit C and E has been demonstrated. Our results now lead us to believe that the free radical detoxification process involves a whole cascade of interacting and interdepending antioxidants that ultimately allow the antioxidant enzymes (superoxide dismutase, catalase, glutathione peroxidase) to do the final detoxification. What this mans is that for optimal protection, any supplementation with antioxidants would require not only the right combination of antioxidants in a pill, but also the right concentration and the right "vehicle" to transport them through the intestine and into the bloodstream.

On the negative side, we did confirm that alpha and beta carotene (from carrots) do not inhibit oxidative damage, but rather enhance it when a particular concentration is used. This was first shown in clinical trials, (ABTC and CARET) were the male test subjects were put on a high beta-carotene supplementation, but were subsequently developing lung and prostate cancer. For this reason the trail was ended prematurely. It was proposed that these higher incidences were due to a combination of smoking and the beta-carotene and that the smoking factor was a significant one. WE now think that this may have played a role in the development of these cancers, but is certainly not the only factor. Beta-carotene, when used in these high doses as used in the trails does not provide bioremedial effects, but rather acts as a prooxidant rather than an antioxidant.

Our studies in Caco-2 cells (cells from the intestine) also showed that several good antioxidants have poor bioavailability, i.e. are absorbed poorly. We need to think of a good strategy to enhance their uptake...or perhaps there is a good reason why they are not absorbed..perhaps because Nature deemed them deleterious to human health.

So we still have a lot of work to do!!!

Geniet van de zon ... voor je 't weet regent het weer LOL

Hoe is ‘t met je “bottom”?? LOL


Groetjes,


GregD
(Biochemist/Cell biologist)



Re: Candida remedies - why no testing?

Posted by GregD on April 03, 2002 at 04:45:25:

In Reply to: Re: Candida remedies - why no testing? posted by Chemist on April 02, 2002 at 16:33:10:

You are absolutely right.

People sometimes forget that not all yeasts are as easy to grow as Saccharomyces Cerevisiae (baker's yeast and the most common yeast used for scientific studies) and that the nutrient and general environment within the intestine is much more complicated.

Furthermore, yeasts have cell walls. This induces transport difficulties for any drug. In order to kill the yeast, some part of it's metabolism must be perturbed or inhibited. In order for the drug to work...it needs to get into the cell. We encountered difficulties with bioavailability in our studies into the efficacy of antioxidants. We wanted to use S. Cerevisiae as a fast screening organism for antioxidants, to subsequently only use the positives in animal cell cultures. Unfortunately we soon discovered that bioavailability issues made it not feasible to do a pre-screening in yeast.

Current anti-Candida remedies often use oxidizing compounds (often free radicals are formed), such as ozonides to destroy cell wall and membrane and in such way cause cell lysis. I have my reservations about this approach, especially since there is now scientific consensus that non-hormonal cancers are cause by free radical mediated oxidative stress.

GregD
(Biochemist/Cell biologist)

Follow Ups:


Re: Candida remedies - why no testing? (Archive in candida.)

Posted by Walt Stoll on April 03, 2002 at 08:15:39:

In Reply to: Candida remedies - why no testing? posted by bglick on April 02, 2002 at 03:13:38:

Thanks, bglick.

First of all: it is IMPOSSIBLE for any earth dweller to avoid the yeast form (seed) of candida. They are in everything we eat, drink, smell, touch and breathe.

It is only when they sprout, into the fungal (active plant form) that they are a problem.

In the healthy gut the conditions are SO inimical to candida growth that they just pass on through without sprouting.

This is why the best preventive is a healthy gut ecology and the best treatment is first creating the same thing. Then the actual candicide treatments have their best chance of success. Since so few conventional physicians were taught to think this way, current testing procedures are not likely to produce consistant results.

Since holistically thinking physicians have not been able to convince conventional physicians (where all the power lies) to think differently...........

Hope this helps.

Walt

Follow Ups:


Re: Candida remedies - why no testing?

Posted by BarbaraN on April 03, 2002 at 13:39:55:

In Reply to: Re: Candida remedies - why no testing? posted by GregD on April 03, 2002 at 04:25:58:

WOW...could you put that in english?? haha or maybe dutch? So, from what I gather...keeping in mind that I read things to validate that what I'm doing is right lol....This means I can continue to drink my coffee and green tea and can forget about the carrots :-) Sounds like a plan to me LOL Now, if there was only some kind of antioxidant in koekjes :) Actually my Japanese friend brought me back green tea cookies one time..think those count?? haha

Seriously, your work seems very interesting and you can definitely tell that you enjoy it! Thanks for your explanation. Keep me posted when you find the right combination and put it in the right vehicle...I want to be the first one on the block to have it :)

Yeah the weather has been unbelievable. Me and my sore butt spend the past few days out in the garden getting it ready and planting the flowers I bought at the flower market on good friday. I cant "sit" for very long so being able to garden is nice. Wish I could have gone for a long ride on my fiets but...ouch lol That arnica stuff really helped but I'm still tender.

Mischien moet Pieter een kusje aan het geven zodat het beter voelt haha Kusjes op boo booes? Doet nederlandse moeders dat ook?

Follow Ups:


[ Candida Archive ]
[ Main Archives Page ] [ Glossary/Index ]
[ FAQ ] [ Recommended Books ] [ Bulletin Board ]
   Search this site!