Has anyone had the experience of having fibromyalgia symptoms flare up after a deep full body (l hour) massage? I had my first one on Sat. and had the therapist really dig on my IT band because it is my area of worst pain. I drank lots of water before and after the massage to flush out toxins. On Sun. not only was the IT band more inflamed, but so was my elbow tendonitis, which has been dormant for some months now. On Tues I had my second massage, without the extra time on the IT band. Again, the inflamtion was worse. It never went back to my normal state in between, either. I will go for my third massage at the massage school on Thurs., then continue the following week with my PT.
My chiropractor adjusted some vertebrae that are connected to this band today and it feels much better, but the pain is not gone. I think it will get better from the adjustments in time, but I'm wondering if I should not let the massage therapists touch my thigh or arm again?
Thanks. Nancy
In Reply to: fibro flare-up after massages posted by Nancy on March 04, 1998 at 20:17:31:
I've taught yoga to groups of women with fm, and they all seem to mention that they feel worse the day after massage, and, for some, worse the day after yoga, which is in itself deeply massaging to the body, but without the "digging". They seem to feel that the benefits, over time, outweigh the temporary misery.
Best wishes,
Jenny
In Reply to: Re: fibro flare-up after massages posted by Jenny on March 05, 1998 at 12:14:29:
Jenny
Thanks for your comments. I had my third one today, so we'll see how it goes.
Nancy
In Reply to: Re: fibro flare-up after massages posted by Nancy on March 05, 1998 at 18:23:10:
Dear Nancy,
Listen to Jenny.
The main reason I have recommended intense massage is that it takes so little time to get results. You could avoid much of the "detox" symptoms is you were willing (& could afford) more gentle massages for 3 times a week for several months.
This WILL get better very soon. Stick with it. Remember, that the benefits you will soon experience will not be permanent. The only thing that will do that is the accumulation fo benefits from the regular practice of skilled relaxation over 6-12 months.
In the end, the more you understand all this, the more you will be able to "go with the flow".
Walt
In Reply to: Re: fibro flare-up after massages posted by Walt Stoll on March 06, 1998 at 09:31:52:
Dr Stoll
Would there be a benefit in getting one massage a month along with the skilled relaxation practice? The school is a really economical way to do that. I've made an appointment for next month already because you have to book so far ahead. The young man who massaged me at the school was better in some ways than the experienced girl that did it at the professional spa, and in others, not as good. My PT gets her turn next week. She's left bruises on me in the past. The young student told me that I was easy to massage because I was so relaxed! Now that's a switch, someone calling mess.list messages readme relaxed! I might have to give some of the credit to the fact that I'm so used to having bodywork, but I feel that the SR I've been doing may also be contributing to it!
Nancy
In Reply to: Re: fibro flare-up after massages posted by Nancy on March 06, 1998 at 14:30:34:
Dear Nancy,
Surely, ANY bodywork would help. However, done that way, you can expect MANY more experiences of "detox" symptoms AND the results we are looking for may take a year.
Eventually, the SR will resolve this (average is 6-12 months). The reasons for the massage schedule is to PROVE to you that we are on the right track (by your results), get you relaxed enough that it would be easier for you to reach the alpha state, help you see how different massuers are so you will know (in your body) which one is the best for you, etc.
If the guy from the school is already this good, you can expect most of his "rough spots" to clear out with experience. He would be a good one for you to keep in touch with. He would be flattered if you asked him to be sure to let you know when he moved anywhere so you wouldn't lose track of him.
Walt
Do you of any articles desribing the effect of Rolfing on whiplash injury ?
I have been through Rolfing, infact, did it for five years. I am a pianist and had carpo-tunnel or something. The doctors tell you to take aspirin and stop playing (the piano, that is). Nothing but Rolfing worked for me (including chiropractic, acupuncture, aspirin). Its manipulation of my back muscles, in particular, relieved a tension that was holding a nerve that came from the spine and fed into the right arm. It was invaluable to me, and I have recommended it to many friends, all of whom have followed my advice and found great relief (from sciatica, too).
In Reply to: Rolfing & Whiplash posted by Tina Haag on March 11, 1998 at 17:11:38:
Der Tina,
Call the Rolfing Institute at (800) 530-8875 and ask them for information including the closest Certified Rolfer. See the Rolfer in consultation & s/he will be able to answer your questions.
Walt
In Reply to: Re: fibro flare-up after massages posted by Walt Stoll on March 08, 1998 at 08:59:22:
Walt
The young massage student will be giving me my 6th massage tomarrow in a private office, for free! He wants the extra practice. I have to be honest with you, though, this massage regimen has wreaked havoc on my body. My IT band problem has developed into a glute/hip problem. I am in so much pain that I can't sleep on my left side at all and I'm not sleeping well. I'm also seeing a good chiropractor 3 Xwk. Dr. Dave led me to him. If that's not bad enough, the diarrhea has come back since I got off the Asacol last Saturday. I'm still doing the SR's, but don't know if I'm getting into the alpha state or not. I know it takes 6-12 months, but if the massages are supposed to help, I've not seen it yet. Don't mean to complain, but I'm a little discouraged at present. Diet is going well, I feel. I've kept the 10 lbs off and eat fresh veggies 2X day, verrry little sugar and no processed foods. Do drink some tea. I will work to eliminate that.
Any comments or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
Nancy
In Reply to: Re: Rolfing? carpo-tunnel solution posted by Kevin Kennedy on March 13, 1998 at 10:36:25:
Dear Kevin,
Thanks for the Rolfing testimonial. This technique is greatly underutilized and more people need to learn more about it.
HOWEVER, having said that: people who have had carpal-tunnel syndrome need to also know that Rolfing is just dealing (albeit at a deep meaningful level) with the consequences of the actual causes. You should be taking an easily absorbed magnesium supplement (at least a gram a day), at least 200 milligrams of vitamin B6 daily (would work better if a balanced B-complex were taken at the same time) AND practicing an effective skilled relaxation technique at least 20 minutes twice a day (not counting any done within 2 hours of retiring). These latter, are major susceptibility factors for carpal-tunnel syndrome.
Let us know how you do.
Walt
In Reply to: Re: fibro flare-up after massages posted by Nancy on March 13, 1998 at 19:24:11:
Dear Nancy,
Sounds like you were a lot further gone than the average. NO ONE is ever harmed by therapeutic massage. What you are experiencing is a "healing crisis". You could learn more about that--and thus know more what to expect in YOUR case--by asking the librarian to find you books on the subject of healing crises.
You may need another week of massages to get past this stage. I have never seen anyone that needed more than 3 weeks. Many have had enough by the end of the first week. Two weeks, at 3 times a week, is an average.
It may even be true that your bracing was so long standing & severe that only manipulation of the fascia (the connecting tissue between the muscle & the bones) will bring you through (Rolfing). Either way, what you have done cannot help but push you along the path toward where your relaxation will eventually take you.
Thanks for sharing. I wish I were there so I could tell you exactly why you were feeling what you are feeling. All I can tell you for sure is that all this is temporary & moving you in a healthier direction.
Walt
In Reply to: Re: fibro flare-up after massages posted by Walt Stoll on March 15, 1998 at 10:48:04:
Walt
My 6th massage was the best yet! The student worked on me for over 1 1/2 hours. He was very slow and able to "melt" the tension away from my trigger points. I gave him some gas money and a copy of your book for his library since he wasn't allowed to charge. I didn't get any of the generalized achies from the fibro. this time and was able to take my son to the mall for an hour shopping that afternoon. Today my hip is hurting again, but certainly no worse than "usual". Digestion is much better. He even massaged my abdomen.
I have no doubt that my bracing was severe and long standing. I have not stopped it completely, of course, but I am so much more aware of it and expect it to diminish over time. I can consciously allow myself to relax when I think about it in most instances. An angry reaction with someone close or extra pressure at work are exceptions. That takes quite awhile longer to work through.
A couple of weeks ago I sent off for info on Rolfing. They promptly sent me a packet, but unfortunately, there are no Rolfers anywhere near me, so I'm left with massages.
My naturopath also called my situation a "healing crisis". I didn't know there were books on the topic. We have a crummy library in our city, but I'll see what's available. Do you know any titles?
Thanks again!!
Nancy
In Reply to: Re: fibro flare-up after massages posted by Nancy on March 15, 1998 at 20:47:13:
Dear Nancy,
CONGRATULATIONS! It sounds like you stuck with it long enough to get past the healing crises. Now that you ARE, I would put Rolfing far down the list (always realizing that your healing experience might still bring it back up).
Any book about Naturopathy should have a section in it about healing crises. Also, your local Chiropractor might have some recommendations for you.
THE WORST IS OVER! You should be proud of your self for getting over the hump. I especially appreciate your sharing your experiences with the BB since only testimonials of the actual experience seem to be able to pierce the armor of some people's resistance to new ways of thinking.
Namaste` Walt
Can you please provide me the names of persons qualified to do rolfing in the Kansas City Metrolpolitan area?
In Reply to: Re: Some More Rolfing Information and Links posted by Mike Callahan on March 17, 1998 at 17:27:20:
Dear Mike,
Call (800) 447-0150 for a listing.
Walt
In Reply to: Re: fibro flare-up after massages posted by Walt Stoll on March 17, 1998 at 10:16:59:
Walt
Thank you very much for your encouragement and guidance through it all!!!!
Nancy
Hi all,
I am a recent convert to Dr Stoll's teachings and have been practicing skilled relaxation for about 4 1/2 months now. I decided I might also benefit from some deep tissue massage as well, so I started to shop around for a massuse. Since I work at a university I called our recreational facility and made an appointment for a 1 hour massage with a woman whose schedule was convenient for me. I had had massages a few times before, some of them were called deep tissue, some weren't, some were by students and therefore cheaper. I had not noticed any major benefits aside from specific muscle tension relief -if I had mentioned a specific need to the massuse. I arrived at the appointed time and discussed my desire for a deep tissue-relaxation inducing massage and that I might want a series of 6 massages in a 2 week time as Dr Stoll had suggested. One hour later I was in relaxation Nirvana! This woman worked with my deep breathing to totally untie all the knots my 42 years of hyperactive stressfullness had tied me into. I was noodly for a full 20 minutes after she was done. I was hooked. I had never had a massage that good before. Since I had been meditating regularly I reasoned that I had learned how to relax and the massage just took me over an edge that I had not experienced before. I would be coming back. The next Monday I made another appointment for the following Saturday with the same massuse.
Imagine my surprise when my Saturday appointment turned out to be with a different massuse, and a man at that. I was supposed to have been told of the change when I made the appointment, but that did not happen. So there I was ready for another session of blissful relaxation. I decided that I would give him the benefit of the doubt and enjoy another hour of relaxing deep tissue massage. Boy, what a mistake. Not only was his massage not relaxing, I now have bruises around my upper spine. When I told him the pressure was too hard he resorted to merely rubbing the skin. When I said he could increase the pressure some he went back to the bread kneading-bouncing he had been doing. I kept hoping it would get better. It didn't. Instead of being relaxing it was downright irritating. The pace made it impossible to breath deeply, and I even found myself holding my breath. I decided about half way through that I could not teach this fellow how to give a massage, nor should I try. I can see why deep tissue massage has gotten a bad rep. It should not hurt.
The moral of the story is that all massages are not the same. They are very specific to the practitioner. Unfortunately one can waste alot of time and money trying to find one that fits one's needs. Most of the massages I have received over the past 20 years have been benignly boring. This last one was BAD. I am thankful that I have found someone who knows how to rub me the right way.
As always thanks for listening.
Laura
PS.I complained and got my money back.
In Reply to: getting rubbed the right way posted by Laura on March 23, 1998 at 17:36:43:
I'm scheduled for my first (of several scheduled) massage tomorrow morning. I'm a bit apprehensive since I have Fibromyalgia and extremely sensitive to touch. About a year ago I had some soft-tissue massages on my back, but decided I would take a big leap and try the deep total-body massages that Dr. Stoll recommends. I'm having these done at my HMO's sport clinic and didn't get to select a particular masseuse. In addition to having Fibromyalgia, I also have Hives (these are just a few tips of the iceberg -- the list is much longer). The type of hives that I have are pressure-induced (it has a big long medical name -- like Dr. Stoll says, they are good at naming these things, just don't fix them!). I can barely be pressed on and later (usually 2 - 24 hours) break out in a hive (the sizes range from the size of a pea, up to the size of a dollar bill, then they can all connect and grow together into a much larger family!)......hence my apprehension of the deep tissue massage. I may be one body-size hive by tomorrow!!
I did okay with the soft-tissue massages on my back last year, but I've experienced some back rubs that tense me even worse than I'm already tensed. So I can relate to what Laura is saying. In addition, I have extreme mood changes with massages and chiropractic adjustments. I'm assuming this is when my trigger points are messed with. I feel like a dog growling and showing my teeth, just waiting to attack and bite (Jim could probably illustrate this with words much, much better). I just warn my family to not talk to me and just stay out of my way until the next day.
I'm just getting started with the relaxation (no where near SKILLED) and trying to be aware of the tension in my body and trying to relax it. I've also been listening to some relaxation tapes, but haven't really got a hold of it yet. I ordered the Stress Reduction Workbook from Amazon and have been waiting weeks for it. I just received a notice from Amazon this morning that said "they have contacted the publisher by phone and are sorry to report that the book is in fact NOT AVAILABLE at this time." I plan to check with a local book store today. I'm also planning to meet with Linda (from this BB) the next time she is in Lexington, Ky., to work on the skilled relaxation (can't wait to meet her -- Dr. Stoll, his book, and this bulletin board have been a Heaven-sent blessing).
Note to Dr. Stoll: I realize it might be 1-2 days before you read my message, and that I may already had my first massage. If the gigantic hives appear and I'm extremely painful from the massage, would I still benefit from them or should I stop the remaining deep tissue massages (the second one is scheduled for Friday, so I may not re-coup by then)? Didn't know if I would be an exception to this with my condition. I know that learning the skilled relaxation is the fix, but sure would like to have some temporary relief if I can endure the pain it may cause.
P.S.: Please broadcast on the BB when the dates are scheduled for you to be in Lexington. I hope to receive a flyer from Roberts Health Center, but just want to make sure I don't miss out!
Note to Doc Dave: If you plan to be in attendance one session let me know. I would like make it a point to be there that session so I can meet you. Would like to get more info on your location 35 miles from here.
Thanks to everyone for the education!
In Reply to: getting rubbed the right way posted by Laura on March 23, 1998 at 17:36:43:
Dear Laura,
You cannot know how much I appreciate your sharing this information. Getting a therapeutic massage is like a dance
--as is Rolfing or any other serious body work.
Were I you, I would never accept anyone but the one you fortunately found. I wish I knew of some effective way to predict which masseuse would be best for any one person. Part has to do with the talent of the one doing the massaging. However much of the rest has to do with the intimate relationship the one being massaged is able to have with the masseuse.
Once one has found the person with whom they can "dance" it is a match made in heaven.
Let us know how you do now that you have found your person.
Walt
In Reply to: Re: getting rubbed the right way posted by Phyllis on March 24, 1998 at 12:38:13:
Dear Phyllis,
It will be worth your while to go through the "misery" of the side effects of massage you experience. Your "hives" are a result of "dermatographia" which is a dead giveaway for your dysautonomia which is caused by the same thing as your bracing. It will stop happening when you are enough better that your skin no longer has to overreact like that.
At worst, it is a misery. Just think how much you have suffered over the years! If I told you that hanging from your thumbs for a couple of weeks would certainly cure what you have, you might do it. What you are going through is a lot less damaging & miserable than that AND IT WILL WORK!
Hang in there, Walt
In Reply to: Re: getting rubbed the right way posted by Phyllis on March 24, 1998 at 12:38:13:
Hi all,
Thanks for the comments. I will certainly post my progress on this BB. It takes only a little encouragment for some of us to flow verbally (another type of chi?).
I suddenly remembered a benign treatment for itchy skin I have used in the past. Disclaimer: I have never had hives covering my entire body so I don't know if this would work or even be safe to do. (Walt?) I have used this numerous times for insect bites and it works very well. Run VERY HOT BUT NOT BURNING WATER (as hot as you can stand without burning yourself) over the affected area for about 2-5 minutes or until the intense itching goes away. At first it will itch like crazy (a friend who used this method on her poison ivy blisters [previously washed with soapy water to eliminate the ivy sap] said it was almost orgasmic!) After the itching subsides stop the water and gently dry the area. You will have relief from itching for aproximatly 8 hours (your mileage may vary) at which time you can redo the hot water treatment. My understanding of this is that the hot water accelerates the production of histamines in the skin which is what makes it itch. Having been goaded into unloading all of their histamine at once the cells then require time to make more- thus the 8 hrs of relief.
I got this from a book that I think is called "Take Care of Yourself" published back in the seventies. This treatmnent has worked for me on the random mosquitoe bite and once on a thigh covered with flea bites (a nest in a pair of pants- long story). Everyone I know who has tried this says it works, but again I would be leary about doing it to your whole body at once. Anyway- good luck.
Laura
PS I got my copy of the Relaxation Workbook at a local Health Books store, (perhaps before the big rush to get them?); )
In Reply to: Re: getting rubbed the right way posted by Laura on March 25, 1998 at 14:41:25:
I should have said that this works by accelerating the RELEASE of histamines in the skin which is what make it itch. Sorry.
In Reply to: Re: getting rubbed the right way posted by Laura on March 25, 1998 at 14:41:25:
Very Interesting! Instead of running water, wouldn't a bath of very hot (not burning) water be the same (and perhaps more relaxing)? I use to take long hot baths every morning, but now that I no longer sleep well, I find myself making fast dashes in and out of the shower so that I can sleep longer. This could be why the hives are worse....or come to think of it, I don't remember having the hives back then!?!? I think I might revisit the tub and give this a try. Thanks so much for the suggestion.
By the way, I'm not a body-size hive today. I went for my first session this morning and got nothing from her doing only another evaluation (but they got my money). I asked for the massage, but she said we wouldn't be doing that. If my knees were not so painful I probably would have gotten down on them to plead, but I could tell her route of handling this is the same old thing that has not worked in the past (or what I can do for myself at home). After paying for something so useless this morning I thought "forget the insurance help, go elsewhere". I now have an appointment for a deep total-body massage in the morning and will start the journey. I just pray that we are able to "dance" well together!
Note to Dr. Stoll: Any suggestions of a great massage therapist or Rolfer in your former stomping grounds (Lexington)? I made this appointment at the Lexington Wellness Center and will give it a try.
In Reply to: Re: getting rubbed the right way posted by Phyllis on March 25, 1998 at 15:33:43:
Phyllis-
I have never tried this on my whole body so I don't know if it would work or even if it would be safe. A long hot bath is very relaxing though and isn't that what this is all about anyway?
The hot water trick is not going to solve the original problem. It will only make it possible for you to stop scratching long enough to do 2 twenty minute sessions of deep relaxation each day. This stuff works! Your own body is so much wiser than any MD, PhD, PT, DC, LAc, or any other initials people put after their names to indicate which club they were initiated into. Once you are relaxed (and can stay relaxed) your body has the opportunity to heal. Your body, mind and spirit want to be whole. Have you ever noticed that the words whole, holistic, hale, health and heal, all come from the same ancient root. I think ancient people knew alot more about health than we ever will. I hope you can find your path to health.
Good luck.
Laura
In Reply to: Re: getting rubbed the right way posted by Laura on March 25, 1998 at 14:41:25:
Dear Laura,
Thanks for the post! I did not mention this well known mechanism since it DOES increase symptoms at the time AND, as you have said, it is not a cure for the condition.
You are right in how we think this works but anyone who even has an itchy mosquito bite can get the same relief by doing what you say.
There is no risk to doing the whole body AND a hot tub soak works as well. ANYTHING that heats up the lesions will do the job.
Thanks again, Walt
In Reply to: Re: getting rubbed the right way posted by Phyllis on March 25, 1998 at 15:33:43:
I have had hives on occasion and so has my husband.
I read that baking soda in a bath can be very soothing
and that is what I have used and my husband and found
it wonderful.
Oatmeal soap might be helpful too. I love Aveeno
oatmeal soap and Kiss My Face olive oil soap.
Hope your hive condition improves and I hope the
health of all the people who come to this BB improves
too.
pamela
In Reply to: Re: Rolfing? carpo-tunnel solution posted by Kevin Kennedy on March 13, 1998 at 10:36:25:
please tell me where i can find someone who practices rolfing in orange county, california. i have some nerve problems and some real bad knees. thanks
In Reply to: Re: Rolfing? posted by scott sellman on March 29, 1998 at 22:32:18:
Dear Scott,
Call (800) 447-0150 for the names of the closest Certified Rolfers.
Walt
In Reply to: Re: Rolfing? carpo-tunnel solution posted by scott sellman on March 29, 1998 at 22:40:10:
Dear Scott,
Although Rolfing will help both these conditions, the fact that you HAVE them both tells me that you have other causes behind all this & you would do better to learn what they are. If the other causes are neglected, the Rolfing benefits will only be temporary (a year or so) and you will be back looking again. This is NOT a reason to not do the Rolfing. It is a plea to not stop there when your symptoms age better for that year or so.
Walt
Phyllis,
I hope you were fortunate enough to find the right masseuse. I agree with Laura about needing the right person. I want to respond at length but must wait until the weekend.
It is ironic that these little energy traffic jams are called "trigger points" isn’t it? In your case it sounds like the congestion has caused a case of "road rage." They shoot at each other in L.A. don’t they?
Positive emotions can be "triggered" in you too. Soon you will probably find they are "released." Later on they will no doubt "flow."
No time to carry this out to "glow" and further word-play.
Jim
PS I got my copy of the workbook right off the shelf at the book store.
In Reply to: Re: road rage on the energy highway posted by Jim on March 25, 1998 at 08:27:57:
I got my book from Walden books for only $6. Barnes & Noble had it too.
Dr.Stoll:
I have a concave chest deformity. If I were to lay a board across my chest the space between the breastbone and board is about 3/4 of an inch. The depression starts at my nipple and slopes down gradually to my breastbone. The deformity only runs the length of my breastbone, and is symmetrical.I read the only way to correct it is through surgery, which I really don't want to do. Can you reccommend a course of action?
Thank you,
Robert
In Reply to: Chest deformity posted by Robert on March 25, 1998 at 02:16:20:
I'd go with the Rolfing.
If you experience thoracic pain or discomfort, trouble breathing, or sternum pain then chiropractic may be of help also.
Just don't try to do too much too fast.