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Dear Walt,
My apologies for the length but I don't know which details are important and which are not so here's everything.
Lately, I had been doing really well just doing the Three-Legged Stool and taking melatonin. Except for a few exacerbations caused by too much physical exertion, recently I've been sleeping and doing very well (no palpitations, good energy).
Last Monday morning 7/1 I received my first magnesium IV. He gave me 4 grams of magnesium sulfate. It was a small bag that seemed to take about 15 minutes but I didn't watch the clock. I experienced the rush of heat, and a little weak feeling or lightheadedness and so I had to lay down. My muscles tightened up a little bit. Afterwards, I felt a little unusual (kinda spacey, but not that much) which lasted for about an hour.
Then I felt very good, as though my brain had been oiled, but my muscles were still slightly tightened up. I started taking magnesium glyconate supplements in 500 mg. doses 2 times a day (which I am still taking).
To my surprise, around 5 hours after the injection, the good feeling left and I started experiencing an exacerbation of symptoms beginning with palpitations. That night, my classic insomnia symptoms (heat, palpitations, muscle tension) were back full force - almost severely! (I've had insomnia every night since the first IV).
On Wednesday 7/3 I was scheduled to receive the second injection. He made three attempts but could not access the veins. On one attempt the IV wouldn't flow at all. On two other attempts, the fluid went into the arm instead of the vein and started "swelling" up the arm. He was only willing to do three tries so there was no infusion that day.
During these several nights, my insomnia symptoms were so strong (no hope for sleeping) that I got up and spent about 6 hours researching magnesium IVs on the web.
I re-read the mg archives and also found two interesting sites on mg. You'll be interested to know that the most current writings of Seelig and Durlach are on one of them. (I tried to put in the html here ... hope it works). The other site is valuable too.
http://www.mgwater.com/durlach.shtml
http://www.mgwater.com/seelig.shtml
http://www.barttersite.com
It's interesting that Durlach is only recommending Mg IVs in ICU's - which scared me at first but then I read the other site's info about the symptomatic progression of mg. toxemia and up to this point, I can tell it's been far from dangerous.
On Friday, 7/5, I received the second IV (after the second try. On the first try, I could see how the protruding vein collapsed after it was pierced, making it difficult...). This infusion was immediately more intense - more heat and more spaciness, and immediate muscle tension. Shortly before finishing, however, the heat and spaciness became too much for me - a little scarey - and I had them stop the IV. After a few minutes this intensity decreased and we finished the little bit left in the bag. I left the office feeling a little spacey and with tight muscles.
About one hour after the injection, the palpitations started. They were strong -- not the worst I've had but definitely starting to get into the scarey range. I was attending a meditation afternoon and couldn't meditate.
On those websites, Seelig and a few others talk about mineral balance, the likelihood of hypocalcaemia and/or hypokalaemia along with mg deficiency, about B6, Vit D and selenium also being needed for absorption, etc. Some BB people wrote they took multis with the IVs for this reason.
So I decided to experiment and went to the store and got Solgar's whole foods concentrate supplement (haven't had time to research Shaklee distributorship yet) and took it. Interestingly, the palpitations decreased in intensity (sigh of relief), the muscle tension relaxed, and I was able to meditate. My energy improved.
Last night, I still had insomnia but it was much less intense (still groggy, not wide-eyed awake). I'll continue taking the supplements. Today I'm doing reasonably well (except I had a "sleep attack" so now I'm suspicious of the supplements) but of course it is the nights that really tell me how I'm doing.
My appointment for the next mg IV is scheduled for early Monday morning. I hope you can answer this before then.
1. What's going on? Did I have a normal or appropriate response to the first two txs? I'm not feeling better so far from the tx. I understand there might be an exacerbation until the mg levels have stabilized, but I'm concerned about how severe the exacerbation is. Certainly I don't want a worse episode of palpitations.
2. Could I already be sufficiently saturated with intracellular Mg as evidenced by the intensity of heat, etc. on the second IV?
3. Do I need to continue the tx?
4. Since the second infusion caused a faster reaction, I'm thinking that the third might be even faster. Maybe I'll only need 1 or 2 gms to get the same reaction. If I continue the tx, should I stop each IV when it gets too intense like that - or even sooner? Certainly I don't want any reaction to be more intense.
5. Any clue about why the multi seemed to help? In the past I've never found anything giving direct relief from palpitations.
6. I also read on your website that some people's palpitations improved by using SR alone and they didn't feel the mg IVs helped. I would be willing to forego short-term symptomatic relief (I"m not fond of scarey stuff!) for an easier, less expensive, long-term resolution of the problem. Do you think the palpitations/insomnia pattern could be resolved just with the Three-Legged Stool?
7. I'm wondering what causes magnesium deficiency in the first place? Can that cause be resolved?
All guidance from you will be gratefully received.
Namaste`
A palpitating Happygal
In Reply to: Magnesium IVs - experience, problems, questions posted by Happygal on July 06, 2002 at 18:38:16:
Hi Walt,
I'm glad you're back. I just wanted to be sure that you didn't miss my post about the magnesium IVs -- at the top of this thread. Today is Monday, I've rescheduled my appointment and so far, it seems to me that the therapeutic trial has proven that more magnesium isn't helpful to me. I'm awaiting your comments.
Namaste`
Happygal
In Reply to: Re: Magnesium IVs - experience, problems, questions posted by Happygal on July 08, 2002 at 10:44:54:
Hi again, Walt,
Just trying to get everything together here. In a separate thread I posted,
How about this one:
Douglas Labs, Amino-Mag 200. Contains Magnesium Glycinate. When extra magnesium is needed, our Amino-Mag 200™ is an excellent choice. It supplies 200 mg. of elemental magnesium per tablet as a unique, patented amino acid chelate. This special glycinate/lysinate combination can be absorbed intact, providing high bioavailability of magnesium. Plus, it's exceptionally well-tolerated and without G.I. side-effects.
The problem with mg. I've run into is that if the above stuff is okay, it's not available retail but is only sold to health care practitioners. I haven't found anything locally in the stores that comes close to the quality of what you ask for. So if Douglas Labs approves me for purchasing it as a health care provider, it'll be another week or so before I can get the product via UPS or however they ship. In the meantime, it doesn't make sense to continue the IVs.
I tried taking a larger quantity of the KAL mg. product to get sufficient elemental mg, but of course that only caused diarrhea and my body's telling me to stop taking it altogether.
Also now my arms are getting pretty splotchy from the IV attempts that didn't work, something must have leaked into the arm and now it is discoloring as it heals.
So this whole thing is not going very smoothly! And I'm still having insomnia ..... I'm hoping that you're going to tell me that the mg. isn't right for me because this is expensive, isn't working well, making me miserable, etc.
I await your comments.
A frustrated Happygal
In Reply to: Magnesium IVs - experience, problems, questions posted by Happygal on July 06, 2002 at 18:38:16:
Hi, Happygal.
First, suggest to the doc that he use a blood pressure cuff, pumped up between the systolic and diastolic pressure, to get the most effective dilation of the vein for starting the IV. He was surely taught in medical school that this was by far the most effective way for difficult venipunctures. Elastic tourniquets are just for the easiest veins!
ALL beneficial physiologic adjustments cause symptoms as they are happening. You will find as you GET adjusted, these will diminish and disappear.
If you get the injections far apart you might always get the symptoms of adjustment with each one.
In order:
1. The kind of palpitations you are having (PVCs) are not dangerous. If I were you I would continue and try to teach your doc how to start difficult venipunctures so they could be close enough together to not cause symptoms so long.
2. Not likely. However, if you are too uncomfortable you might cut the dose in half and take twice as many.
3. I think you deserve at least a trial of this approach to see what will happen. It is not dangerous and your benefits will last longer with each infusion.
4. See above.
5. IF you are absorbing any part of your oral magnesium, multi always works best since everything works together. This does say, however that you MIGHT get results with just the multi (although it will take much longer).
6. Yes. Especially with your multi experience. You will have to be patient, though.
7. In this country it is a comnbination of LGS & refinement of foods.
Hope this helps.
Walt
In Reply to: Re: Magnesium IVs - experience, problems, questions (Archive.) posted by Walt Stoll on July 09, 2002 at 08:44:18:
Dear Walt,
Thanks for your thoughtful reply to my many questions. I understand much better now.
I have decided to take the slow and steady approach rather than go back to re-starting the IVs.
I'd like to share my experience so others will not have the same problems. It's been one difficulty after another (the doctor had trouble with the IVs, the KAL people lied to me about the amount of mg. in their product, the bulletin board unexpectedly shut down so I couldn't ask questions in a timely way, my own error was to try to take extra of the KAL product to get enough elemental mg. which then screwed up my digestive system). In the end, my insomnia and palpitations are back, my digestive system is a mess, and I'm $220 poorer. By now I'd probably have to start the IVs all over again since its been 4 days since the last one and it would cause symptoms again. After 10 days of distress, my body and mind need a break. I might deserve a trial of this approach but affording it is also a challenge. It doesn't make sense to continue, at least right now. This misadventure was nobody's fault, just a kind of a comedy of errors.
If I was giving advice to someone else trying this, I would tell them that the only magnesium products suitable for therapeutic use like this (and labeled appropriately) are NOT available retail, but are only available to health care professionals from companies like Douglas Labs and Metagenics. They could search the products on the internet and then find a practitioner in their area who carries them.
Also it would be helpful if someone who had a successful result with this treatment would describe how it goes, what it feels like, how long their exacerbation lasted, how important the time space is between the injections, etc. It would be helpful to have more to read on the BB about these details before even starting.
However, some good came out of this. I really like the doc I connected with -- he's openminded, flexible, and communicative. He read all the materials I took him about magnesium and discussed them with me, and is really willing to do the IVs again later if I decide to do that. I feel he will be an ally to my healing, when I need his service.
Thanks to your answering my questions, I now understand that mg. deficiency is caused by LGS and refinement of foods -- both which can be resolved (Three-Legged Stool). I'm glad there is an alternative.
By "You will have to be patient, though." -- what kind of time frame are you talking about? The typical 6 mos to 1 year to resolve LGS?
Thanks,
Happygal
In Reply to: Re: Magnesium IVs - decision posted by Happygal on July 09, 2002 at 12:38:24:
Hi Happygal,
Sounds like you made a well-thought-out decision to stop the IVs. I hope you can figure out a good regimen for yourself and continue healing without too much discomfort or time lost.
The problem I ran into a while back in finding a practitioner in my area that sells certain brands (non-retail) of supplements is that some (most?) of them will not sell to anyone who is not their client/patient. Not sure if that is part of the distribution agreement, or if it's just at the discretion of the practitioner. I do suspect that rule is ultimately for our protection, but it sure makes it hard to pick up a bottle of something to try for 30 days. Sometimes there are a websites that carry the non-retail brands.
I think it's really too bad that the best products seem to be available to the public only with great effort, while the low-quality products are available on every corner. Is it any wonder that supplements get a lot of bad press?
Nutmeg
In Reply to: Re: Magnesium IVs - decision posted by Nutmeg on July 09, 2002 at 14:44:40:
Hi Nutmeg,
Great observation about the supplements and the bad press.
I'd be interested in knowing which companies you've found have websites and sell directly to consumers.
Thanks, Happygal Jan
In Reply to: Re: Magnesium IVs - decision posted by Happygal on July 09, 2002 at 12:38:24:
Yeah, Happygal.
About.
Walt
In Reply to: Re: Magnesium IVs - decision posted by Walt Stoll on July 10, 2002 at 08:18:00:
Hi Walt,
Thanks again. I'm feeling better today -- I do recover MUCH faster from exacerbations now. And it's okay if not all attempts at healing go smoothly, it's the nature of the "game."
Have I told you lately how much I appreciate you? I feel like my life has been IGNITED by the Three-Legged Stool, all the things I've been learning from your website and the opportunity to participate! Thanks, thanks, and thanks again! I'm so glad you're here, helping us!
Namaste`
Happygal Jan
In Reply to: Re: Magnesium IVs - decision - for Nutmeg posted by Happygal on July 10, 2002 at 07:53:28:
Happygal,
There is at least one source for Metagenics products online. It is www.trustmark.org. I checked the ingredient list of a Metagenics product that I have here and discovered that their tablets do contain plenty of crappy non-nutritive OTHER ingredients that are the binders, fillers, disintegrators, and coatings for the tablets. However, the product information on the trustmark website says that Metagenic's OTHER ingredients are much better than everyone else's OTHER ingredients, just like their active ingredients. Reassuring, I guess.
Hope this helps,
Nutmeg
In Reply to: Re: Magnesium IVs posted by Happygal on July 10, 2002 at 10:03:37:
Thanks, Happygal.
I appreciate your appreciation!
Namaste`
Walt
In Reply to: Re: Magnesium IVs - for Happygal - online source... posted by Nutmeg on July 10, 2002 at 14:52:17:
Wow, Nutmeg!
I wonder when they started putting this stuff in? The FDA continuously pressures every manufacturer to conform to everyone else and that is probaby the source of the compliance. Now, if the FDA would just require posting all the ingredients on the bottle and actually force those manufacturers to prove their individual safety............
Don't hold your breath!
I will try to find out the reason.
Namaste`
Walt
In Reply to: Re: Magnesium IVs - for Happyga--additives... (Archive in supplements.) posted by Walt Stoll on July 11, 2002 at 09:39:23:
From my bottle of Metagenics Cal Apatite with Boron tablets which I just ordered last month:
"Other ingredients: microcrystalline cellulose, stearic acid, cellulose coating, croscarmellose sodium, silica, and magnesium stearate."
I went ahead and ordered it and started taking it because it was recommended so highly on this website. I have a hard time believing, though, that over time, those ingredients are completely inert and don't end up accumulating somewhere in the body and clogging up the liver.
I wondered if maybe there were two grades of Metagenics, one for distribution through professionals, and another that they sell to the public through websites, but the label on my bottle says "Distributed by Metagenics, Inc., Makers of Professional Quality Supplements, San Clemente, CA" The bottle is brown glass, the label is silver with "Metagenics" in blue, the product name in red, and all the other label text in black. Is that what your Metagenics products look like?
Nutmeg
In Reply to: Re: Magnesium IVs - for Dr. Stoll, FYI on additives... (Archive in supplements.) posted by Nutmeg on July 12, 2002 at 02:14:47:
Thanks, Nutmeg.
About half of those you listed are not absorbable. I am saddened to see the other "minimally reactive" additives, though. Six of these is atill a far cry from the average of 25-35.
My bottle of Multigenics has a silver lable, blue Metagenics and red title of supplement.
Hope this helps.
Walt
In Reply to: Re: Magnesium IVs - for Dr. Stoll, FYI on additives... (Archive in supplements.) posted by Walt Stoll on July 13, 2002 at 09:37:59:
Dr. Stoll,
Would you happen to know which ones are not absorbable and which ones are minimally reactive? Is there a list somewhere? It would help to know so the bad ones can be avoided in the future.
Thank you,
Nutmeg
In Reply to: Re: Magnesium IVs - for Dr. Stoll, FYI on additives... (Archive in supplements.) posted by Nutmeg on July 16, 2002 at 01:18:31:
Hi, Nutmeg.
I would have to go back to my biophysiological text from med school to remember them all but the most commercially available ones I can think of are: magnesium oxide (no more absorbable than sand), citrate (used as a laxative because it is so poorly absorbed), gluconate (not so badly absorbed).
Hope this helps.
Walt
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