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Dr. Stoll:
I have searched your website and all related research on Mg supplementation. My question is a variant of earlier questions--what is the range of time for supplementation side effects to disappear?
Specifically, I am taking 2g of Mg Orotate (Nutrient Carriers brand)--on an empty stomach in the am and pm. I have noticed the common side effect of somewhat softer than normal stools in the almost 3 weeks I have been taking Mg.
My understanding is that this due to non-absorption of Mg (resulting from lower than normal intracelluar levels of Mg). The Nutrient Carriers brand (Vitamin Shoppe) is microencapsulated and the company's excellent physican/researcher believes that Mg orotate in this form should not produce side effects. Not so evidently.
Your response to Joanna 7/25/00: ..." Eventually, when your problem (soft stools) is gone, you may find mainteance dose much less."
My question--- will my soft stools eventually disappear (as Mg level rises) if I continue on my current oral 2g/day Mg orotate supplementation protocol? When?-what is a reasonable time range for disappearance of this symptom?
Thanx
John T
In Reply to: Magnesium orotate and disappearance of GI side effect posted by John T on October 17, 2001 at 16:14:25:
Hi, John T.
Since your soft stools are a direct effect of local magnesium inside the gut, that is not being absorbed, the solution is to reduce your dose. That "side-effect" will disappear within days.
This has nothing to do with the level of magnesium in your blood. The soft stool says that at least some of the magnesium is going right through. Your bodymind is trying to tell you that you are wasting some of your money.
Hope this helps.
Walt
In Reply to: Re: Magnesium orotate and disappearance of GI side effect posted by Walt Stoll on October 18, 2001 at 09:56:48:
Dr. Stoll,
Thanx much for your very helpful feedback. These supplement companies really don't provide any useful guidelines for side-effects, dosage, and 'performance monitoring'.
Follow-up question--the Mg Orotate designer's (Dr. Hans A. Nieper of Hannover, Ger) recommended dosage (on the Advanced Research label) is 1 g Mg (as orotate) for people under 50 yrs.--over 50, 2 g. I am also getting another 500 mg of Mg as mixed chelate in a multi-min in addition to the 2g of Mg orotate. It sounds like my body is telling me that is too much. It may well be that the Mg chelate is not absorbing as well and is residual in the gut.
If you take 3 hrs before a meal, are you saying that still does not prevent residual unabsorbed Mg from affecting the digestive-absorptive process--the Mg still remains in the gut wall?
Also, in one of your earlier responses to Joanna I think you indicated ..."It is hard to take too much of Mg." Pls explain given the suggestion to cut back dosage.
Should I drop back to 1.5g Mg oro for a while (say 1 week and see how that works) and then possibly to 1 g of Mg oro if that still doesn't work? How long does it take for your intracelluar Mg concentration to saturate? In other words, do I reduce dosage until stools normalize and then increase dosage back up to 2g or simply staye at lower dose?
Thanx again for your helpful 'hands on' insight!
John T
In Reply to: Re: Magnesium orotate and disappearance of GI side effect posted by John T on October 18, 2001 at 14:09:27:
Yeah, John T.
Cut the dose a little and wait a few days to see what happens. Keep doing that every few days until your stools are as you want them. That is your dose.
Remember that the oral dose you need may continue to reduce--as the level in your cells becomes normal you will get better at absorbing it.
Hope this helps.
Walt
In Reply to: Re: Magnesium orotate and disappearance of GI side effect posted by Walt Stoll on October 19, 2001 at 12:31:56:
Hi Dr. Stoll:
Folowing your recommendations. I have noticed that after maintaining a given dosage for a period of days that my morning stool becomes softer (I now take Mg before bedtime). Other stools during day are close to normal. Based on your dicussion of gradual dosage reduction (due to improved absorption) is this the pattern? I have reduced from orginally 2 g of Mg orotate starting on Sept. 26 to only 750 mg of Mg oro now. (I should also note that I have been taking a well balanced chelate multi-mineral for 15+ years that is 500 mg of Mg mixed chelates and never had any problem whatsoever). I plan on reducing another 250 mg.
I have several follow-up questions after fully researching all your archives:
(1) How do you distinguish between the need for IV/IM vs. oral protocol such as mine? --what are the criteria? I am taking Mg merely as a "prophylaxis'--(I have absolutely no symptoms of any kind typically associated with Mg deficiency. Based on your feedback, I presume my etiology follows the common oral supplemenation path.
(2) A little confused--if IC Mg is OK then why can't you take 2-3 g Mg oro daily w/o getting soft stools? Is it because the excess Mg is recycled back to the gut where it is unbound and attracts water? [Archival material indicates that once a person's IC level of Mg is restored thru IV/IM then oral Mg works--does this mean you can take any level e.g 2g daily forever w/o any soft stools?] You refer to each individual's mainteance dosage--e.g. if you exceed that by a factor of say 3X wouldn't the excess Mg in the gut (that is recycled back by the body's balancing mechanism)still cause soft stools?
(3) As cells get better at absorbing Mg, is stool softness at a given 'high' dosage (as in my case) indicative of excess Mg causing a laxative effect? Since the cells need less Mg once their Mg storehouse requirement has been met, wouldn't continued hi level supplementation cause stool softness even though absorption efficiency has improved?
(4)It seems in a chemically balanced Mg celluar system that continuing hi dosage would be a waste of money and a chronic cause of soft stools.
(5)Am I interpreting your very helpful feedback comments correctly? Sorry for the long-winded stream of (un)consciousness. This should hopefully close the loop on this important area.
Thanx again,
John T.
In Reply to: Re: Magnesium orotate and disappearance of GI side effect posted by John T. on October 28, 2001 at 17:29:40:
Thanks, John T.
In order:
1. Without symptoms, your best "indicator" is not present. I would just take the reasonable, and easily absorbed, magnesium maintenance dose present in most quality supplements already.
2. Apparently the mechanism of soft stools from unabsorbed magnesium is similar to that of the soft stools from unabsorbed vitamin C.
3. IF I understand your question: Once absorbtion efficiency is reached, any excess magnesium should still cause loose stools. Without symptoms to be improved, I do not know how to determine that YOUR IC level is ideal. The IC tests are an indication but have little to do with the individual's needs, YET.
4. I agree.
5. The world's top expert on this subject (from Britian) has written a 500 page book on the subject. I wish I had kept her name.
If you come across it, I would appreciate your putting in on the BB for the rest of us.
Walt
In Reply to: Re: Magnesium orotate and disappearance of GI side effect posted by John T. on October 28, 2001 at 17:29:40:
Thanx Dr. Stoll:
Your feedback is very helpful and links all the factors in a logical chain. Interesting you mentioned the Vit C mechanism. I had been taking 6 g (ala Pauling) of buffered C prior to my Mg Oro supplementation w/o any side effects with stools. Your interesting point about the "excess dosage" laxative mechanism raises another question: could there be a synergistic laxative effect of the previously benign Vit C with Mg even though prior to Mg supplementation the Vit C did not cause any problems with stools? Could the benign Vit C perhaps make the gut more sensitive to any Mg excess or is the Mg excess laxative effect stricly a function of excess Mg and completely independent of Vit C?
I have reduced my Vit C to 3-4 g/day as an experiment but stools are still soft (would seem to suggest the maybe the Mg mechanism is dominating). Earlier on in the Mg protocol when I was taking 1-2 g Mg oro stools were better with the hi Vit C--suggesting that as the IC Mg increased (leading to increased absorption efficiency) a given Mg dosage resulted in more excess Mg in the gut,hence, the Mg laxative effect. Consequently, your recommendation to reduce dosage over time.
This can get complicated but it ultimately results in very useful understanding and application in the end.
As a passing thought, it would be very interesting and helpful (only if time permitted!!) to link the key aspects of Mg supplementation available on your BB from symptomology, supplements, results, Mg absorption/laxative mechanisms, and maintenance dosage. Or perhaps just adding a new thread. I do not know of any other site where all this very helpful info exists.
Thanx again for your help and patience!
John T.
In Reply to: Re: Magnesium orotate and disappearance of GI side effect posted by John T. on October 29, 2001 at 12:34:30:
Thanks, John T.
To your question about a synergistic effect: I would suspect that there is. Most chronic symptoms are not due to one specific cause.
Hope this helps.
Walt
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