Dr. Stoll,
I had already looked all over your site for some answers to the question I have about the magnesium chloride. I know from evidence that it helps people who have arthritis, but I does not know what collaterate reactions may have. So I will appreciate if you can tell me something about the possible reactions.
Thank you.
Follow Ups:
Re: Magnesium Chloride Reactions
Posted by Walt Stoll on September 02, 1998 at 17:08:21:
In Reply to: Magnesium Chloride Reactions posted by Begoņa de Prado on September 01, 1998 at 12:10:18:
Dear Begon~a,
How do you put the ~ over the n?
I know of no side effects from magnesium chloride.
Once your intracellular magnesium is close to normal, one should keep it up orally by taking magnesium aspartate or orotate.
Walt
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Re: Magnesium Chloride Reactions
Posted by Begoņa de Prado on September 02, 1998 at 17:41:57:
In Reply to: Re: Magnesium Chloride Reactions posted by Walt Stoll on September 02, 1998 at 17:08:21:
Thank you very much for your answer.
The way I managed to put the ņ is because I have a spanish keyboard which has the letter ņ. My name is from Spain.
One again thank you very much for the answer, and I would appreciate if you could give I little more of information about the magnesium chloride.
Begoņa
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Re: Magnesium Chloride Reactions
Posted by Walt Stoll on September 03, 1998 at 09:41:58:
In Reply to: Re: Magnesium Chloride Reactions posted by Begoņa de Prado on September 02, 1998 at 17:41:57:
Spanish keyboard, huh?! Pretty tricky!
Any how, Begona (I have an english keyboard).
I don't know what you want to know about the MgCl2.
Could you be more specific?
Walt
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Re: Magnesium Chloride Reactions
Posted by Begoņa on September 03, 1998 at 13:16:23:
In Reply to: Re: Magnesium Chloride Reactions posted by Walt Stoll on September 03, 1998 at 09:41:58:
Dr. Stoll,
Thanks again.
Well, my mother in law is the one who wants to know about it and she asked me to look on internet if I could find some information about the MgCl2. I have been looking almost in all the possible sites finding very few things. She is a chemist, and she read in some article in a magazine that the MgCl2 is good for people who have arthritis, so she wants to know, as I asked you before, if taking MgCl2 has any side effects, and if it has other good effects.
I have told her, as you said me, that it had no side effects, but I did not convinced her and she would like to know more.
Any way, if it is nothing else you can tell me about the MgCl2, do not worry, I appreciate that you answered all my former questions.
Begoņa
Follow Ups:
Re: Magnesium Chloride Reactions
Posted by Walt Stoll on September 04, 1998 at 11:01:50:
In Reply to: Re: Magnesium Chloride Reactions posted by Begoņa on September 03, 1998 at 13:16:23:
Dear Begona,
I really miss the little ~. I want to spell your name with an "i" (Begonia) since I know that that is the way it is pronounced (sigh).
ANYHOW, have your mother-in-law go to her library & ask them for the British PhD (woman) who is considered the worlds's authority on the medical aspects of magnesium. I would be surprised if they could not find a Spanish translation since she is so well known & is considered the world's top expert. Her book (just about the medical aspects of magnesium)is a big, thick, technical tome that is written in such a way as to serve the public as well as medical & chemical professionals.
With your mothere-in-law's background, it is a natural for her. When you find out the name of this author/researcher, let me know since I have lost it during moving.
I hope you can share with us what she learns.
Walt
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Re: Magnesium Chloride Reactions
Posted by Irene in TX on September 04, 1998 at 18:46:29:
In Reply to: Re: Magnesium Chloride Reactions posted by Walt Stoll on September 04, 1998 at 11:01:50:
Mildred Seelig, MD?
Follow Ups:
Re: Magnesium Chloride Reactions
Posted by Walt Stoll on September 05, 1998 at 11:11:39:
In Reply to: Re: Magnesium Chloride Reactions posted by Irene in TX on September 04, 1998 at 18:46:29:
Thanks, Irene!
That sounds like the one. Do you happen to have the particulars about her wonderful book about this subject?
Namaste` Walt
Follow Ups:
I am taking Rolaids to stop A-Fib-and it works!!
Posted by Frank C. on September 05, 1998 at 23:00:11:
In Reply to: Re: Magnesium Chloride Reactions posted by Walt Stoll on September 05, 1998 at 11:11:39:
Dr. Stoll- after reading a lot of your messages re: magnesium deficiency and how it causes A-Fib, Istarted to use Rolaids because they are advertised as "rich in Magnesium". It has been almost a month now that I have been chewing two tablets a day and to my amazement I have not had an episode of A-fib! Is it possible that this treatment (if you want to call it that) will relieve me of A-fib after almost 25 years of off again on again attacks? Please respond. Thank you.
Follow Ups:
Re: I am taking Rolaids to stop A-Fib-and it works!!
Posted by Walt Stoll on September 06, 1998 at 10:02:35:
In Reply to: I am taking Rolaids to stop A-Fib-and it works!! posted by Frank C. on September 05, 1998 at 23:00:11:
Dear Frank,
Congratulations! Just think how many people just this little bit of information would help! "Why didn't YOUR doctor tell you about magnesium?"
This is why I wrote my book. There are many things, just as simple as this, that would help a lot of people with their chronic conditions. People need to learn how they are being victimized by the conventional medical monopoly every day----just for the benefit of the practitioners of that monopoly. Finally, just rightous indignation will bring us to the complementary health care of the 21st century.
NOW, having gotten my "soapbox" stuff out of my system; about your magnesium. The lower it is, the less it takes to make you better. ANY antiacid will reduce the absorbability of any mineral. You are fortunate that you got enough to produce your present improvement--which is almost certain to be temporary until you can get a lot more into your system.
If I were you, I would thank my lucky stars & immediately get started on about 2 grams of elemental magnesium per day for about 6 months. I would be sure to only take the easily absorbed forms (aspartate, orotate or glycinate) AND be sure to take them far away (in time) from any antiacid. THEN, you could probably cut your dose at least in half for maintainance for the rest of your life.
Do not be surprised if you have a short time of relapse while your magnesium levels are getting saturated enough to be permanent. In the meantime, since it worked for you, I would continue the Rolaids as you have been.
Let us know what happens. Title your notes something like "magnesium/dysrrhythmia success" so others with similar problems can more easily find them.
walt
Follow Ups:
Re: Magnesium Chloride Reactions
Posted by Irene in TX on September 09, 1998 at 11:26:49:
In Reply to: Re: Magnesium Chloride Reactions posted by Walt Stoll on September 05, 1998 at 11:11:39:
Walt,
I don't have her book title offhand (published in 1980), but I have some articles, notably "Consequences of Magnesium Deficiency on the Enhancement of Stress Reactions" Journal of American College of Nutrition, Oct 94. There's also the book by Jean Durlach, MAGNESIUM IN CLINICAL PRACTICE, John Libbey, 1988 which has been translated into English. These folks tend to advocate lower doses than you do.
I'll take this opportunity to update you on my own quest to raise my low magnesium level and hopefully clear up some troubling symptoms. After pursuing this for about two years, I haven't had much success. I finally found a dr to give me some drip IV's of a gram of elemental magnesium each, but they didn't help my symptoms or raise my wbc magnesium. I haven't found a dr interested in doing more than this, and I'm not sure any more can be done. I've tried to keep up with the oral of 500mg, but it gives me the runs. I've also tried some self-administered IM injections of 100mg, but this was difficult (I needed my husband's help since I can't reach my buttocks, and he's phobic). My prescription ran out anyway, and my dr declined to renew it.
Time to give up?
In appreciation,
Irene in TX
Follow Ups:
Re: Magnesium Chloride Reactions
Posted by Walt Stoll on September 10, 1998 at 11:09:10:
In Reply to: Re: Magnesium Chloride Reactions posted by Irene in TX on September 09, 1998 at 11:26:49:
Thanks, Irene, for the additional resources.
In MY experience, one needs to give what gives rthe highest % results with the lowest risk possible. The doses I recommend have zero risk. Twenty years form now, I predict that everyone will be recommending those doses. For now, lacking sufficient clinical experience, everyone is erring on the side of "safety" for the doc.
Unfortunately, that means that many people do not get enough.
I can hardly imagine someone setting up an IV drip just to give a gram of magnesium. One can give several grams in 5 minutes straight into the vein (undiluted) with no risk at all. If given too fast (less than 5 minutes) one can feel a flush so most of us tend to give it over 5 minutes. The flush is not dangerous but why produce it in the anxious patient when it takes 5 minutes to avoid it? Giving it by IV drip, in MY experience increases the anxiety somewhat and the expense a LOT.
I think if you keep trying you will find someone who is knowledgable enough to do this for you effectively. I would do my shopping on the phone & not bother going to anyone who is not knowledgable enough. It is not up to you to educate them--doesn't help anyhow.
You can thank the AMA policy, of harassing anyone who learns this stuff out of practice, for how far you have to drive to find that doc that can help you.
Let us know how you do. By the way, when you get loose stools from any oral magnesium it means that you are not absorbing it. Consider a more easily absorbed form and taking digestive enzymes with your dose.
Remember, docs have routinely ordered 25cc of 50% Magnesium Sulfate IM for toxemia of pregnancy (repeated if necessary) for more than 50 years without ANY toxicity. You can figure out how much that is of elemental magnesium. Ignorance & AMA harassment is the only reason you are having trouble getting enough. 100 milligrams of magnsesium IM (what you were giving yourself) is less than 5% of what you needed.
Have you contacted Dr Trowbridge in Humble, TX about this? At least he is knowledgable (and a fine physician besides).
Walt
Follow Ups:
Re: Magnesium Chloride Reactions (additional)
Posted by Walt Stoll on September 10, 1998 at 11:13:22:
In Reply to: Re: Magnesium Chloride Reactions posted by Irene in TX on September 09, 1998 at 11:26:49:
Thanks, Irene, for the additional resources.
In MY experience, one needs to give what gives rthe highest % results with the lowest risk possible. The doses I recommend have zero risk. Twenty years form now, I predict that everyone will be recommending those doses. For now, lacking sufficient clinical experience, everyone is erring on the side of "safety" for the doc.
Unfortunately, that means that many people do not get enough.
I can hardly imagine someone setting up an IV drip just to give a gram of magnesium. One can give several grams in 5 minutes straight into the vein (undiluted) with no risk at all. If given too fast (less than 5 minutes) one can feel a flush so most of us tend to give it over 5 minutes. The flush is not dangerous but why produce it in the anxious patient when it takes 5 minutes to avoid it? Giving it by IV drip, in MY experience increases the anxiety somewhat and the expense a LOT.
I think if you keep trying you will find someone who is knowledgable enough to do this for you effectively. I would do my shopping on the phone & not bother going to anyone who is not knowledgable enough. It is not up to you to educate them--doesn't help anyhow.
You can thank the AMA policy, of harassing anyone who learns this stuff out of practice, for how far you have to drive to find that doc that can help you.
Let us know how you do. By the way, when you get loose stools from any oral magnesium it means that you are not absorbing it. Consider a more easily absorbed form and taking digestive enzymes with your dose.
Remember, docs have routinely ordered 25cc of 50% Magnesium Sulfate IM for toxemia of pregnancy (repeated if necessary) for more than 50 years without ANY toxicity. You can figure out how much that is of elemental magnesium. Ignorance & AMA harassment is the only reason you are having trouble getting enough. 100 milligrams of magnsesium IM (what you were giving yourself) is less than 5% of what you needed.
Have you contacted Dr Trowbridge in Humble, TX about this? At least he is knowledgable (and a fine physician besides).
Walt
P.S. By the way, I hope you know that the doses I am recommending are THERAPEUTIC doses. I do not say that they are the maintenance doses. They are to get the person results AND, physiologically, to the point where their physiology can maintain itself orally. Once one has results, the doses needed ARE much smaller.
Re: Magnesium Chloride Reactions
Posted by Irene in TX on September 10, 1998 at 12:19:13:
In Reply to: Re: Magnesium Chloride Reactions posted by Walt Stoll on September 10, 1998 at 11:09:10:
Walt,
Yes, you suggested Dr. Trowbridge to me a couple of years ago, and I was his patient for nearly a year (a four hour drive each way for me). He is a lovely, compassionate man, but he apparently does not share your enthusiasm for magnesium therapy. He gave me one drip IV of 160mg followed by a prescription for the 100mg self-administered IM's described earlier. I was not faithful with these because my husband had such an emotional reaction to adminstering them, and I could not reach the proper injection spot myself.
I've called and visited numerous doctors (on the ACAM list and others), and virtually no one shares your views on dosage.
Walt, it is EXTREMELY difficult to get this kind of information over the phone. Usually one can't get beyond the receptionist, or at best a nurse, who just tells you to make an appt and discuss the issue with the doctor.
My tests still show me low in magnesium, and I continue to suffer from extreme vocal fatigue and pain on speaking (Durlach described my syndrome well).
In appreciation,
Irene in TX
Follow Ups:
Re: Magnesium Chloride Reactions
Posted by Walt Stoll on September 11, 1998 at 11:07:01:
In Reply to: Re: Magnesium Chloride Reactions posted by Irene in TX on September 10, 1998 at 12:19:13:
Thanks, Irene.
Wish I was still in practice. We would make short work of this. I am dismayed that even forward looking clinicians are so ignorant of the facts. If you sat down with John and asked him how much IM magnesium sulfate he would give a woman with eclampsia of pregnancy, he would say what I said. THEN, if you could get him to think about why he only gives about 1/20th of that dose for you, his eyes would get a faraway look & THEN, perhaps, he could think again. At least he has an open mind. It is just that we are SO brainwashed by the "system" that it is VERY hard to break.
Short of finding someone knowledgable enough to help you, the only thing I have to suggest is for you to take enough digestive enzymes that your gram of elemental magnesium does not cause loose stools (That means that you are, finally, absorbing it.). Then, after a few months of absorbing your adequate dose of magnesium, you will get to the same place where you would be with the series of injections.
You are close enough to Mexico where magnesium orotate is available. Even with that, however, your story tells me that you will need the digestive enzymes.
Let us know how you do.
In the meantime, even without the magnesium, your skilled relaxation will resolve the problem. It is just that it will take a lot longer for your results than it would by combining the relaxation WITH the magnesium.
You have the AMA to thank for disparaging this information so thorougly the even open minded docs like John are still being very over conservative. Of course, that is the AMA's goal: Anything to put off as long as possible things that can help people that are not directly controlled by the licensed physician. ANY healthfood store owner, Naturopath, Chiropractor, etc., can offer enzymes and oral magnesium. This is too much competition if it works. If it did not, they would not worry since it would die on the vine.
That is why one of the bills pushed so hard by the AMA is one that would make it illegal to manufacture any vitamin C tablet with more than 100 milligrams in it. That way people would be hard put to afford enough vitamin C to help many chronic conditions. Anything larger would be available by prescription only (of course at wildly inflated prices).
Walt
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Re: Magnesium Chloride Reactions
Posted by Irene in TX on September 11, 1998 at 13:08:18:
In Reply to: Re: Magnesium Chloride Reactions posted by Walt Stoll on September 11, 1998 at 11:07:01:
Walt,
It's hard to imagine 25cc's given IM. Ouch, what a horse shot!
I've been switching around with different forms of oral magnesium to see if there was one that gave me less problems. I was about to try magnesium lactate, recommended by Durlach. I hadn't found orotate and hadn't realized I would need to go to Mexico to get it!
Would one capsule of the enzymes (I have a mixture of HCL, papain, bromelain, pancreatic enzymes) be sufficient to take with the magnesium? Should these be taken alone or with food and other supplements?
Until now, I've been taking the magnesium right after my morning smoothie, along with my Armour thyroid and some other supplements. Then if I'm not having too much digestive trouble, I take another dose in the afternoon, making 500 mg total on my good days. Sometimes I've had to skip several days for my intestines to calm down. I had only been taking digestive enzymes with dinner.
I did show Dr. T. all of your notes, but he felt his low-dose approach was more appropriate.
In appreciation,
Irene in TX
Follow Ups:
Re: Magnesium Chloride Reactions
Posted by Walt Stoll on September 12, 1998 at 10:05:06:
In Reply to: Re: Magnesium Chloride Reactions posted by Irene in TX on September 11, 1998 at 13:08:18:
Hi, Irene.
You are right! This size shot IS pretty painful. However, at the time, we are dealing with an emergency and do it anyhow. If we were proactive about nutrition & prevention, we would put every pregnant person on high doses of easily absorbed magnesium throughout their pregnancy and these emergency procedures would become a thing of the past. As it is now, conventional medicine does not even give magnesium to those women who have had this with previous pregnancies even though we have known for more than 100 years that one episode almost guarantees the next one. WHAT THE DEVIL DO WE THINK WE ARE TREATING WITH OUR INJECTION OF MAGNESIUM? WHY DO WE THINK IT WORKS SO QUICKLY OR SO WELL?
Even more amazing (about the safety of this dose) is the fact that commonly a second injection is used when some of the symptoms persist--------SAME SIZE. If we were the least bit concerned about toxicity, we would at least give it IV so we could stop the infusion at the first sign of problems. Instead, we give it IM, knowing that none of it can be taken back out if there is any problem------there never IS.
I think your enzymes should be enough IF you took it on an empty stomach. Food uses up the enzymes. Normally, we make a lot more of these enzymes than we need so taking supplements with meals is the way to do it. However, in your case it is pretty sure that you do not. SO, at least till you are normally absorbing things like this, I would do it away from meals.
Dr T's dose didn't work, though, did it? Knowing what I shared above, what do YOU think about it being "appropriate"? Considering the other "experts" about magnesium who "recommend much smaller doses than I do"-----------how does that wash with the 50 year old practice of giving as much as 50cc of 50% Magnesium Sulfate IM, routinely, for toxemia of pregnancy with no recorded cases of toxicity over all those years?????
When you are absorbing your magnesium, you will have NO intestinal upset taking it. You see why I recommend adequate doses IV to get past this stage of not absorbing it orally, don't you?
What do you think is the reason so many professionals avoid adequate doses? Is it to protect the patient OR to protect the physician from criticism from the ignorant powers that be?
It certainly is NOT to protect the patient!!!!!!!!!
Let us know what happens. Walt
Follow Ups:
Re: Magnesium Chloride Reactions
Posted by Irene in TX on September 12, 1998 at 15:21:53:
In Reply to: Re: Magnesium Chloride Reactions posted by Walt Stoll on September 12, 1998 at 10:05:06:
Walt,
I wish you knew of a doctor in practice who uses these doses and methods. One is all I need.
Until then, I will try your other suggestions and yes, I will keep in touch.
In appreciation,
Irene in TX
Atrial Fibrillation stopped by Magnesium
Posted by Frank C. on September 15, 1998 at 16:24:17:
In Reply to: Re: I am taking Rolaids to stop A-Fib-and it works!! posted by Walt Stoll on September 06, 1998 at 10:02:35:
Dear Walt- since I first wrote you about taking 2 Rolaid tablets every day, I went to my Doctor and he said that if that little amount of magnesium was working to stop my chronic bouts with A-fib, he told me to take Magnesium oxide instead of the Rolaids because it will do the job better. What do you think of this and what kind of dosage would you recommend. My Doctor also informed me that if I took too much of the Magnesium Oxide I should be prepared to suffer some diarrhea. Is this normal? I will wait for your response. Thank you.
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Re: Atrial Fibrillation stopped by Magnesium
Posted by Walt Stoll on September 16, 1998 at 09:44:33:
In Reply to: Atrial Fibrillation stopped by Magnesium posted by Frank C. on September 15, 1998 at 16:24:17:
Hi, Frank.
Your doc should vbe congratulated for thinking about this BUT, at the same time, he should take at least a little time learning about it BEFORE trying to sell advice about it.
Magnesium Oxide is almost TOTALLY unabsorbable. As a matter of fact, I can think of no other moelcule with magnesium that it LESS absorbable (sigh). No wonder he told you about loose stools. When magnesium is NOT absorbed, it causes loose stools.
At least take one of the ones I suggested.
Walt
Re: Magnesium Chloride Reactions
Posted by Kristina Gomez on November 10, 1998 at 16:10:48:
In Reply to: Re: Magnesium Chloride Reactions posted by Begoņa de Prado on September 02, 1998 at 17:41:57:
My partner and I are doing a Science Fair project about Magnesium chloride and we were wondering if you could send us some information about Magnesium chloride? Our project is about it's effect on deicing the roads and it's effect on the concrete. Please e-mail us with any information you can.
Sincerely Kristina Gomez, Doniphan Nebraska