Dr. Stoll:
You recommend intercelluar Magnesium level testing for fibromyositis sufferers. I had a "red blood cell magnesium level" test done and the results were reported to me as "Your level # is 5.1 which is normal". Can you interpret or help guide me towards understanding the significance of this number.
thanks
In Reply to: Magnesium level posted by Tim Vaughan on February 06, 1998 at 13:10:00:
Dear Tim,
Which laboratory did the test? For many years, only a few labs did this test (you got the right test IF the lab was competent to do it) since few physicians knew enough to order it. Even now, when some local labs are starting to offer the test, it is still ordered rarely for any individual lab. Unfortunately, unless the test is done many times a day, they are not likely to be very good at it.
IF the test is accurate, this MAY mean that your intracelular magnesium is OK. However, even an accurately done test does not necessarily mean that YOUR level is OK for YOU. There is a very wide range for what is right for the individual. Biochemical Individuality (Dr Roger Williams writings for the past 50 years) is now proving to be much more important that anyone ever guessed. Genetic research, today, is proving he was right 50 years ago. There are some nutrients that have been documented showing some people need as much as 1000 times as much as some other people just to be normal. The magnesium story is still so new that we do not have good standards.
Once one has a level like this reported, by a lab doing the test many times a day, one (with fibromyositis) would be wise to take a couple of grams of easily absorbed magnesium a day (glycinate, orotate, aspartate) for a few months to see if it makes any difference in symptoms. Your bodymind is still the most accurate laboratory for YOU.
THEN if you were interested, once your symptoms got as good as they could get with magnesium alone, you might rerun the test & see what YOUR normal level is.
Is this making sense to you? GOOD question!
Walt
In Reply to: Re: Magnesium level posted by Walt Stoll on February 08, 1998 at 08:53:38:
Dr Stoll:
My magnesium test was performed by Quest Diagnostics in Denver, CO. It is a test they perform very frequently. 4.0-6.4 mb/dl is considered "normal". I am confused (which is a state of mind that it is easy to fall into when you have one of these chronic pain conditions and you receive so much conflicting advice). In your book you say that no amount of orally taken magnesium can produce symptomatic improvement that a injection can, but in your posting you recommended oral magnesium. I do take 600mg daily and have for a few months. Please clarify your suggestion.
Thank you.
In Reply to: Re: Magnesium level posted by Tim Vaughan on February 09, 1998 at 12:49:47:
Dear Jim,
I give myself intramuscular magnesium sulfate injections 2-3 times weekly, under an MD's supervision. I've never had an intracellular magnesium level done, but was advised by the MD to go the injectable magnesium route on the basis of symptoms. Regardless of what test results would have said, my biochemical indivuality as demonstrated by symptoms was screaming "you need the stuff!" It is helping me get over my own physical issues quite dramatically. The theory behind injectable mag sulfate vs. taking oral magnesium supplements, as far as I know, is that when one is severely deficient in magnesium, the oral supplements simply don't get absorbed. In this case, one has to do injectable magnesium supplements until intracellular magnesium levels rise sufficiently for oral magnesium supplements to become assimilable. To use a rough analogy, I think its kind of like starting off siphoning fuel out of a gas tank--jump start the process by starting to siphon, and then the fuel will spontaneously flow naturally. In other words, you "jump start" yourself with injectable mag sulfate first, and then after a while the oral supplements will spontaneously become absorbable. Dr. Stoll, on the basis of my own bodymind history, indicated that I might need to go the injectable route for 1-2 months. For other people, it might be necessary for a couple of weeks to a month. He could tell you a lot more than I possibly can. Good luck!
Kyra
In Reply to: Re: Magnesium level posted by Kyra Kitts on February 09, 1998 at 16:28:14:
Dear Tim and Walt,
My apologies to both of you. First of all, sorry for calling you Jim in reply to your post, Tim. And Walt, I didn't see your extensive post to Tim to start with.
Kyra
In Reply to: Re: Magnesium level posted by Tim Vaughan on February 09, 1998 at 12:49:47:
Dear Tim,
One of the strange things about how the body works is that: If one's intracellular magnesium is low enough (for them) to cause symptoms, the person loses their ability to absorb magnesium orally--untill the level is once again high enough for them to start absorbing it.
Humans are not machines so some people can still absorb it orally even though most won't. I recommend people to take it orally, while they are getting about 6 IV injestions in a couple of weeks in the outside chance that they might be the one who still can absorb it. It can't hurt.
However, if it were me, I would not depend upon the oral to resolve a problem. I would depend upon it to maintain my level once I was OK.
I am not familiar with Quest. However, if they have been doing the test many times a day for a year or so, they should be as good at it as anyone.
I hope this answers your questions.
Walt
In Reply to: Re: Magnesium level posted by Walt Stoll on February 10, 1998 at 13:46:31:
Walt and Kyra:
thanks for the information. Two last questions. What is an recommended amount of injectable magnesium sulfate to be used in these 3x/week injections? Are they into a vein or muscle?
In Reply to: Re: Magnesium level posted by Tim on February 10, 1998 at 14:02:27:
Dear Tim,
Since my own injectable magnesium requirements are probably higher than most peoples', plus i'm not a doc, i don't want to speculate what your requirements would be. 3 times a week is what i determined to be optimal for myself initially, upon experimentation, and the requirement seems to be coming down to twice a week. i've been doing this since mid-January '98. i inject myself intramuscularly in the butt--no big deal once you get used to it. You do need to have a doc show you how to do it, and have a sympathetic doc's prescription. Mind you, a sympathetic prescribing doc who's willing to teach you how to inject yourself in order to avoid the cost of office visits for injections might be a challenge to locate. My operative theory is, stick to your guns and pester. The fine art of (sometimes obnoxious) persistence, along with being an educated consumer, can break down even the most recalcitrant medical deity's resistance. Good luck!
Kyra
In Reply to: Re: Magnesium level posted by Kyra Kitts on February 11, 1998 at 03:31:45:
Dear Kyra,
I would appreciate your telling Tim how much magnesium you take by injection. At least he would know how safe that dose is & not be afraid to get that much. I agree that he probably doesn't need as much as you but it certainly wouldn't hurt him & he might just get faster results.
The other reason is that every time someone asks, I have to look it up again. When I was doing it every week, I knew. Like you, however, one has to do it to remember. Your sharing this with him would save me from having to look it up again.
Walt
In Reply to: Re: Magnesium level posted by Walt Stoll on February 12, 1998 at 14:59:46:
Dear Tim,
Per Doc Walt's request, here's the full scoop. I inject myself with 6 cc USP 50% magnesium sulfate (10 grams/20mL, 4.06 mEq/mL), 3 times a week, on Thursday, Saturday, and Tuesday. I've been doing this for almost exactly a month. I'm now going to start experimenting with cutting back to 4 cc per injection, depending on how I feel in the moment. The very first injection I gave myself last month (split dose), was 10 cc. I NEEDED it. My feeling is that magnesium sulfate is very safe, and that it would be almost impossible to overdose on it. I know that women hospitalized with preeclampsia or toxemia before giving birth are sometimes given massive IV drip doses of mag sulfate over an extended period, with no ill effects. As Doc Walt told me, physicians often err on the side of the conservative in prescribing dosage for injectable mag sulfate, and then when the patient doesn't respond because they're simply not getting enough, the doc assumes that the mag sulfate is unnecessary. Most folks probably wouldn't need 6 cc @ 3 times a week; more likely twice a week at 4 cc would do the trick, over a period of weeks to a month (am I getting this right, Walt?). Hope this helps.
Kyra
In Reply to: Re: Magnesium level posted by Kyra Kitts on February 09, 1998 at 16:28:14:
Kyra,
Could you tell us moe about the symptoms that lead you to believe you needed magnesium? And how you responded to the IV magnesium?
Thanks
Peter
In Reply to: Symptoms of Magnesium Deficiency? posted by Peter Wray on February 16, 1998 at 09:54:39:
Dear Peter,
Sorry, forgot to tell you how i respond to the injectable mag sulfate. It's kid of like dying and going to heaven for a little while. In me, it induces deep relaxation and sometimes makes me want to take a nap. If i've spaced injections too closely, such as on two consecutive days rather than every 2-3 days, i don't feel anything in particular.
Kyra
Dear Irene,
If you live where there are no enlightened physicians, perhaps you could just find one who would teach you to give your own (IV or IM) magnesium, write the prescription for the stuff & the syringes & needles and you can give your own. Kyra has spelled out exactly what you would need within the past few days, right here on the BB.
If your doc will not even do that, you are going to the wrong doc. It is time to stop supporting his stubborness & strike out on your own.
When enough docs see that their patients are not going to wait for them to catch up with the medicine of the 21st century, they may get on the stick & learn how to provide service to them.
Walt
In Reply to: Re: Magnesium level posted by Walt Stoll on February 20, 1998 at 13:51:03:
Hi Doc, et al,
I have severe muscle spasms in my back and have tried everything including injctions of aneshetc wih and without steriods. This is temporary relief and horribly expensive.
Ive been trying oral magnesium (oxide, sulfate, orotate, aspartate, etc) and these give me horrible migraine headaches but does help the muscle spasms.
Any suggestions?????????
Cheeers,
Glenda
In Reply to: Re: Magnesium level posted by GLENDA GREEN on February 22, 1998 at 17:16:57:
Dear Glenda,
Can you count your heartbeat with the pounding of your headaches? Or, are your headaches steady and not pulsating? I will bet that you do not even have "migraine" --or even vascular--headaches. They are almost certainly muscle tension headaches and have nothing to do with migraine. If you actually CAN count your pulse with the pain in your headaches, be sure to look at this link Headaches: Vascular and Migraine.
Are you aware that more than 90% of all headaches diagnosed as "migraine" in this country are misdiagnosed?
About the magnesium, if it is related to your muscle tension (which it likely is since you can get some relief even with oral doses) you almost certainly are going to need the injections 3 times a week for a couple of weeks for your oral to do you the kind of good you will need in the long run.
There have been some good, informative notes about this within the last couple of months. Use the search feature.
Walt
In Reply to: Re: Magnesium level posted by Walt Stoll on February 24, 1998 at 13:21:20:
Being a long-term Atrial Fib sufferer, I am very interested in trying magnesium replacement therapy but am concerned about reaching potentially toxic levels. How do I know I am magnesium deficient to begin with? The information available concerning intracellular vs blood levels of magnesium and the relationship of magnesium to calcium and potassium (i.e., don't take one without the other) is confusing. Please help. Thanks, Bob
In Reply to: Re: Magnesium level posted by Bob Ritchie on February 25, 1998 at 19:57:15:
Dear Bob,
In my training & experience, it is nearly impossible to get too much magnesium as monitored by any physician. The usual problem is that the inexperienced physician will be MUCH too conservative with the dose & do little or no good. Women in delivery, who are showing signs of eclampsia are routinely given several times the amount of magnesium (IM) as would be effective in a case like yours. ALL medical students are exposed to this process. WHY, then, do they suddenly get so conservative when they get out in practice? The inexperienced doc frequently will not give more than 10% of what they gave so easily to the lady in labor.
There is a note with the right doses on this BB within the past month. Use the search feature & find it.
You need a knowledgable physician in your area who can determine this for you & answer your questions as they relate to YOU. The best way to start finding that doc would be to call (800) 532-3688, and start calling professionals close to you till you find one that knows of what you speak.
Let us know how you do.
Walt