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Dr Stoll: Dairy (others please feel free to chime in)

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Dr Stoll: Dairy (others please feel free to chime in)

Posted by ukchris [10820.4621] on June 23, 2008 at 09:03:32:

Hi Doc, I hope you had a nice break!

I was wondering how much dairy you consume in your diet? I've started adding an egg or two per day, to ensure I get a natural source of b12 and protein. How many eggs, and how much cheese, milk etc. do you consume per week, and what do you look for? Do you buy organic, do you eat raw, and do you source this produce from any specific place? i.e. a farm where you can trust the animals have been looked after and fed well.

I am trying to improve my vegetarian diet. Whilst I know that it is a healthy diet in general (when done properly), I have come to realise that I may need a small amount of animal protein and was curious about your experiences and what you do.

Thank you :-)

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Re: Dr Stoll: Dairy (others please feel free to chime in)

Posted by Trish [296.2857] on June 23, 2008 at 09:26:14:

In Reply to: Dr Stoll: Dairy (others please feel free to chime in) posted by ukchris [10820.4621] on June 23, 2008 at 09:03:32:

To quote the farmer's market signs here in NYC, eggs are NOT dairy!!!!!

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Re: Dr Stoll: Dairy (others please feel free to chime in)

Posted by ukchris [10820.4621] on June 23, 2008 at 09:38:02:

In Reply to: Re: Dr Stoll: Dairy (others please feel free to chime in) posted by Trish [296.2857] on June 23, 2008 at 09:26:14:

Thanks for clarification.

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Re: Dr Stoll: Dairy (others please feel free to chime in)

Posted by Steve [4710.3394] on June 23, 2008 at 12:33:40:

In Reply to: Dr Stoll: Dairy (others please feel free to chime in) posted by ukchris [10820.4621] on June 23, 2008 at 09:03:32:

Try more raw food before you add animal protein.

Silver Fox!

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Re: Dr Stoll: Dairy (others please feel free to chime in)

Posted by ukchris [1490.2450] on June 23, 2008 at 14:34:58:

In Reply to: Re: Dr Stoll: Dairy (others please feel free to chime in) posted by Steve [4710.3394] on June 23, 2008 at 12:33:40:

Thanks Steve. What is your routine when it comes to raw food? What do you enjoy? Do you get organic?

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Re: Dr Stoll: Dairy (others please feel free to chime in)

Posted by PhillyLady [5444.4558] on June 23, 2008 at 15:47:04:

In Reply to: Dr Stoll: Dairy (others please feel free to chime in) posted by ukchris [10820.4621] on June 23, 2008 at 09:03:32:

Chris:

Eggs, natural yogurt (without additives), and real cheese with culture (not processed) would be good sources of animal protein that wouldn't involve eating meat.

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Re: Dr Stoll: Dairy (others please feel free to chime in)

Posted by Eric [962.4559] on June 23, 2008 at 16:17:52:

In Reply to: Dr Stoll: Dairy (others please feel free to chime in) posted by ukchris [10820.4621] on June 23, 2008 at 09:03:32:

Hi ukchris and everyone,

Raw egg yolks from free-range hens are quite yummy. I try to get one a day, as well as one or two cups of raw milk and some raw milk cheese (maybe 50 grams or so). Once I tried them I discovered how much better they taste raw than when cooked--even when soft-boiled--and so I am not inclined to go back. The whites however are less pleasant raw--a bit salty but that's about the best of it--and some say that the avidin in the whites binds biotin (a B vitamin, is it B9? I can never remember) leading to deficiency. So here's what I do: butter and raw egg yolk smeared on toast, followed by the white lightly fried (until none of it is runny anymore) in coconut oil (stays unoxidized at much higher temp than butter or many other oils).

This turns out to be pretty close to what Paavo Airola says in "Every Woman's Book" is the nutritionally optimal method of cooking eggs. (Rather than frying the white he poaches it--then you know it hasn't gone above 100 degrees C.)

I found that separating the yolk from the white effectively took a little practice (say, 5 eggs or so before I felt comfortable--I do it with a spoon and a little cup).

Well this is all both more and less than you likely wanted to know.

Best of luck in any case with your new diet options,
Eric

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Re: Dr Stoll: Dairy (others please feel free to chime in)

Posted by ukchris [1490.2450] on June 23, 2008 at 16:58:49:

In Reply to: Re: Dr Stoll: Dairy (others please feel free to chime in) posted by PhillyLady [5444.4558] on June 23, 2008 at 15:47:04:

Thanks Philly. I think I will need to source direct from a real farm. Won't find these types of dairy (and eggs) in a standard supermarket I suppose. I am going to get around to buying organic veges & fruit from a supplier who delivers so may add these foods to my "basket" too.

Here is the dairy (and eggs) info from those guys. Do tell me what you think. None of it is raw however.

Organic Milk Whole Milk - 1 pint bottle @ £0.54
Produced by Gordon and Linda Tweddles at Acorn Dairy in Yorkshire. Delivered in glass bottles which should be returned for re-use.


Organic Milk Semi-Skimmed - 1 pint bottle @ £0.54
Produced by Gordon and Linda Tweddles at Acorn Dairy in Yorkshire. Delivered in glass bottles which should be returned for re-use.


Organic Milk Skimmed - 1 pint bottle @ £0.54
Produced by Gordon and Linda Tweddles at Acorn Dairy in Yorkshire. Delivered in glass bottles which should be returned for re-use.


Organic Double Cream, Acorn Dairy - 50cl @ £1.45
A thick, double cream produced by Acorn Dairy's Friesian and Dairy Shorthorn herd.
Fre

Organic Butter - 250g pat @ £1.49
Produced by Gordon and Linda Tweddles at Acorn Dairy in Yorkshire. Handmade from Organic Milk.

Yorkshire Farmhouse Organic Free Range Eggs 1/2 doz @ £1.55
A family business run by the Potters. The hens are kept in small flocks with daily access to lots of fresh pasture, enabling them to express all their natural behaviour. They are accredited to the RSPCA Freedom Food. The carefully prepared feed uses only the highest quality GM free ingredients that contain no chemicals, hormones or artificial yolk colourants.

Organic Swaledale Cheese in Wax - 220g @ £3.99
A wonderful Dales cheese handmade to the traditional Swaledale recipe in Richmond. It is made with pasteurized milk. It is visually attractive in, a whole round cheese protected by wax.



Organic Wensleydale Cheese with Cranberries - 200g @ £2.20
A wonderful light,creamy handmade cheese. It is made using pasteurized milk by the Wensleydale Creamery in Hawes in the Yorkshire Dales.



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Re: Dr Stoll: Dairy (others please feel free to chime in)

Posted by ukchris [1490.2450] on June 23, 2008 at 17:05:09:

In Reply to: Re: Dr Stoll: Dairy (others please feel free to chime in) posted by Eric [962.4559] on June 23, 2008 at 16:17:52:

Hi Eric, thanks for all of this info on raw dairy (and eggs lol) :-)

I have always been intrigued about whether eating raw milk, eggs, cheese is safe. I suppose having been brought up on pasteurised milk and cooked eggs, it seems a little yucky to eat them uncooked. Did you have any difficulty when you first tried? I am not even sure where I'd be able to source it.

Do you eat meat? And how much other raw food (veges, fruits) do you try to get into your diet? I appreciate your help.


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Re: Dr Stoll: Dairy (others please feel free to chime in)

Posted by PhillyLady [5066.4558] on June 23, 2008 at 18:31:26:

In Reply to: Re: Dr Stoll: Dairy (others please feel free to chime in) posted by ukchris [1490.2450] on June 23, 2008 at 16:58:49:

Chris:

The supply of organic food is very limited in regular supermarkets here too. That's why we go to places like Whole Foods and Trader Joe's.

I never buy milk so I can't recommend which kind is the best. But I think I would prefer whole milk over skim or low-fat. Also, I read somewhere that it's best to get raw, non-homogenized milk. But where can you get it?

I do use organic, cultured, unsalted butter and plain yogurt. I also use raw and organic cheeses (Parmesan imported from Italy and raw, organic cheddar from "Organic Valley").

Eggs that are organic and free-range are easy to get here. Remember, they are not considered dairy because cows don't lay eggs:-) It looks like you can get the same wholesome quality in England, so I would certainly buy eggs from Yorkshire Farmhouse.

Even if you can't get raw dairy products, organic is the better choice as opposed to conventional. At least with organic you won't be ingesting the same hormones, antibiotics and chemicals that conventionally-farmed animals are given.



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Re: Dr Stoll: Dairy (others please feel free to chime in)

Posted by Jan DeCourtney, CMT (Happygal) [884.4558] on June 23, 2008 at 19:50:53:

In Reply to: Re: Dr Stoll: Dairy (others please feel free to chime in) posted by ukchris [1490.2450] on June 23, 2008 at 17:05:09:

Hi Chris and others,

I buy the expensive eggs at the grocery store, the ones that say hormone free, organic fed, free range, etc. I think it is very good protein. I usually eat one or two a day, because I'm not eating meat much now, but my body still needs high quality protein.

I eat a lot of cheese in the winter when it is cold, less in the summer.

Right now someone has gifted me with shares of a cow for 6 weeks, so I'm getting raw milk for the first time. I'm not sure I can tolerate it. I had some on my cereal for breakfast, and seemed to have some reactions today. I'll keep experimenting and see if it is the milk or something else. The raw milk was delicious -- tasted like ordinary milk only better.

Best wishes,
Jan

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Re: Dr Stoll: Dairy (others please feel free to chime in)

Posted by ukchris [10820.4621] on June 23, 2008 at 21:57:37:

In Reply to: Re: Dr Stoll: Dairy (others please feel free to chime in) posted by PhillyLady [5066.4558] on June 23, 2008 at 18:31:26:

At least you have Whole Foods and Trader Joes. We are supposed to be getting a Waitrose in the city later this year, they sell a lot of organic foods and have other good ethical practices.

How come you don't buy milk then?

I eat cheese but I've become fussy about milk. I need to convince myself it's ok to eat the milk of another species. It seems kinda odd. Does that make sense? I know eating cheese makes me a contradiction, but giving that up made my diet virtually impossible.



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Re: Dr Stoll: Dairy (others please feel free to chime in)

Posted by ukchris [10820.4621] on June 23, 2008 at 22:01:42:

In Reply to: Re: Dr Stoll: Dairy (others please feel free to chime in) posted by Jan DeCourtney, CMT (Happygal) [884.4558] on June 23, 2008 at 19:50:53:

I find it interesting that you need to supplement your limited meat diet with protein in the form of eggs.

I have been eating one or two eggs per day for about a week now, and feel really energetic and well. I don't know if it's psychosomatic or I'm just getting more sleep this week. Guess I need to keep up the experiment a bit longer to find out.

Did you find the raw milk a little hard to stomach at first? Have you tried eating eggs raw like Eric?

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Re: Dr Stoll: Dairy (others please feel free to chime in)

Posted by PhillyLady [5066.4558] on June 23, 2008 at 22:33:40:

In Reply to: Re: Dr Stoll: Dairy (others please feel free to chime in) posted by ukchris [10820.4621] on June 23, 2008 at 21:57:37:

I don't buy milk because I won't drink it (can't stand the taste). But I like milk products such as yogurt, cheese, and butter.

Soy milk is what I put in my green tea. If I have company, I'll go out and buy heavy cream to put in our coffee. And recently, I have started using hemp milk. That stuff is delicious and great on cereal. But it costs twice as much as soy milk.

Using cultured dairy products isn't that strange to me. After all, they drank milk way back in Biblical times (land of milk & honey). Actually, I'm not sure if they drank it, or cultured it first and then consumed it. Yogurt and cheese are ancient....like wine:-)

P.S. A food that survived for thousands of years like cheese and yogurt has can't be that bad. To me they're natural products. It's all this modern tampering of milk that's made it bad.

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Re: Dr Stoll: Dairy (others please feel free to chime in) ALSO

Posted by PhillyLady [5066.4558] on June 23, 2008 at 22:35:27:

In Reply to: Re: Dr Stoll: Dairy (others please feel free to chime in) posted by PhillyLady [5066.4558] on June 23, 2008 at 22:33:40:

Also, I know that soy milk and hemp milk have nothing to do with dairy products. But since I don't drink milk, I use soy and hemp instead.

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Re: Dr Stoll: Dairy (others please feel free to chime in)

Posted by Walt Stoll [93.3349] on June 24, 2008 at 06:29:37:

In Reply to: Dr Stoll: Dairy (others please feel free to chime in) posted by ukchris [10820.4621] on June 23, 2008 at 09:03:32:

Hi, UK.

I have been a cheeze "addict" all my life and have to restrict my intake. When I fall off the wagon" I eat about a pound at a sitting but only swiss that I order from the Amish in Ohio.

I get my eggs from Publix but only buy their "Cage Free" free ranging hens eggs which are a lot healthier than caged producers (as well as a lot tastier). I eat about a dozen of these a week.

Hope this helps.

Walt

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Re: Dr Stoll: Dairy (others please feel free to chime in)

Posted by Walt Stoll [93.3349] on June 24, 2008 at 07:31:20:

In Reply to: Re: Dr Stoll: Dairy (others please feel free to chime in) posted by ukchris [1490.2450] on June 23, 2008 at 17:05:09:

UK,

There has never been a documented case of salmonella poisoning from an egg produced by a free ranging hen.

That ought to tell us something.

Walt

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Re: Dr Stoll: Dairy (others please feel free to chime in)

Posted by Jan DeCourtney, CMT (Happygal) [884.4558] on June 24, 2008 at 08:40:00:

In Reply to: Re: Dr Stoll: Dairy (others please feel free to chime in) posted by ukchris [10820.4621] on June 23, 2008 at 22:01:42:

Hi Chris,

I have never tried eating raw eggs. When I cook eggs, though, I don't cook the yolks completely, I like them still liquid and not hard.

The jury is still out on the raw dairy. I like the concept, but I have had a dairy hypersensitivity in the past. I can eat cheese and yogurt if I don't eat too much.... I'm trying the raw milk on my cereal every other day, and if I have reactions every other day, I'll stop consuming it.

One thing about raw eggs, I heard from a nutritionist that taurine (an amino acid) is found in raw eggs and raw meat, but not many other places. The body can make it, but this nutritionist suggested trying to supplement taurine for increased well-being.

My body really needs quite a bit of protein. There seems to be some dynamic between the quantity of protein I eat, how much I exercise, and the nutritional supplements I take. If any one of these is not enough or too much, it disturbs my overall biochemical balance. If I don't eat enough animal protein (beans, soy, rice, etc don't seem to do it), I just don't feel as well.

Best wishes,
Jan



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Re: Dr Stoll: Dairy (others please feel free to chime in)

Posted by Steve [4710.3394] on June 24, 2008 at 08:41:41:

In Reply to: Re: Dr Stoll: Dairy (others please feel free to chime in) posted by ukchris [1490.2450] on June 23, 2008 at 14:34:58:

I do well on raw fruit and veggies, but it is hard to eat a pound of carrots. So I juice them and other fruits and veggies. That way I get 4 to 6 servings at one shot. I try and eat at least 1 salad per day. I eat chicken and fish. I stay away from red meat.

There's nothing wrong with cooking food. It just takes longer to digest and uses more energy.

Silver Fox!

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Re: Dr Stoll: Dairy (others please feel free to chime in)

Posted by ukchris [10820.4621] on June 24, 2008 at 09:38:02:

In Reply to: Re: Dr Stoll: Dairy (others please feel free to chime in) posted by Walt Stoll [93.3349] on June 24, 2008 at 06:29:37:

Yes it helps. I am also a cheese addict. It's good to know you eat so many eggs; I thought I was consuming too many at 1-2 per day.

Thanks Walt.


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Re: Dr Stoll: Dairy (others please feel free to chime in)

Posted by ukchris [10820.4621] on June 24, 2008 at 09:43:32:

In Reply to: Re: Dr Stoll: Dairy (others please feel free to chime in) posted by Jan DeCourtney, CMT (Happygal) [884.4558] on June 24, 2008 at 08:40:00:

I think we may be quite similar from what you've written. I will continue adding eggs to my diet and see how it goes. Thanks for all of your help.

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Re: Dr Stoll: Dairy (others please feel free to chime in)

Posted by ukchris [10820.4621] on June 24, 2008 at 09:56:08:

In Reply to: Re: Dr Stoll: Dairy (others please feel free to chime in) posted by PhillyLady [5066.4558] on June 23, 2008 at 22:33:40:

Thanks Philly.

I read that milk is the number one intolerance, and the cause of much baby/infant sickness. Wheat is number two on the list I believe. This seems to be because we have only been consuming wheat and dairy products for a few thousand years. Is it natural? Not sure! Can you imagine the first person who saw a cow's udder and thought that it might be a good idea to drink the white stuff that comes out? Sometimes I think that milk is only intended for the young of it's specific species, but then you could say that eggs are only intended for hatching chicks, and vegetables are only intended for propagating that particular species of plant. What is natural and what is not? Wish I knew! I guess I really wonder how we define "natural".

For certain we can be sure at least that modern tampering such as GM, pesticides, chemical additives etc. are NOT natural.

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Re: Dr Stoll: Dairy (others please feel free to chime in)

Posted by ukchris [10820.4621] on June 24, 2008 at 10:01:28:

In Reply to: Re: Dr Stoll: Dairy (others please feel free to chime in) posted by Steve [4710.3394] on June 24, 2008 at 08:41:41:

Thanks Steve. Doesn't cooking food made it easier to digest?

Do you think that juicing fruits and vegetables results in loss of nutritional value? i.e. the pulp, fibre is lost? I drink smoothies but tend to think juicing is like refining a product. I recall Walt describing a peeled carrot as "refined", and therefore no long a "whole food". I wonder that if we juice a vegetable/fruit, then it is not as nature intended and therefore not as useful to the body and perhaps may result in some imbalance.

What do you think?

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Raw Foods

Posted by Lurch [2616.4558] on June 24, 2008 at 10:37:18:

In Reply to: Re: Dr Stoll: Dairy (others please feel free to chime in) posted by ukchris [1490.2450] on June 23, 2008 at 17:05:09:

Raw foods are a no-no for Ayurveda Vata type like I am (which is tall, thin, etc.) They say raw vegetables are what should be avoided most, as they are hard to digest and will lower the "intestinal fire" which we need to digest foods. I'm going to stop all raw veggies but I wasn't eating many of them anyway.



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Re: Raw Foods

Posted by ukchris [10820.4621] on June 24, 2008 at 10:53:07:

In Reply to: Raw Foods posted by Lurch [2616.4558] on June 24, 2008 at 10:37:18:

Hmm. I identify with some bits of the Vata type, but not others.

I did find this but no way to ascertain which I would be.

" * Vata is the dynamic "kinetic" principle necessary to mobilize anything from electron to a galaxy. Air is the representative in an abstract sense.
* Pitta is the thermal, explosive force behind the ability to transform everything. Sun is the representative.
* Kapha is the cohesion that holds everything together with its electro magnetic and gravitational forces."


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Re: Raw Foods

Posted by Lurch [2616.4558] on June 24, 2008 at 12:29:46:

In Reply to: Re: Raw Foods posted by ukchris [10820.4621] on June 24, 2008 at 10:53:07:

I got this book, and according to it I'm very much Vata. Opinions and websites vary on this, like with acid/alkaline food lists, etc. I took an online test that said I was Vata/Pitta. I tend to believe in this book more.

This book has great reviews. I really believe raw vegetables are not a good idea for me. Raw fruit is OK once in a while, except for apples.

Also - they say we should never eat cold or frozen food right out of the refrigerator. I used to eat frozen foods often, up until recently.



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Re: Dr Stoll: Dairy (others please feel free to chime in)

Posted by Steve [4710.3394] on June 24, 2008 at 12:45:03:

In Reply to: Re: Dr Stoll: Dairy (others please feel free to chime in) posted by ukchris [10820.4621] on June 24, 2008 at 10:01:28:

Cooking kills enzymens in food. In order for your body to use the food you eat, it must turn food into blood. Live enzymens aid in this process. When you eat cooked food, the body must turn the dead food into live food. So it must use enzymens that are made in the pancreas. That process takes longer.

Do you lose some nutritional value when you juice? Yes. But it is next to imposible to eat enough fruit and veggies. For example. 1 pound of carrots yields 4 oz. of juice. Can you eat 1 pound of carrots? Every day? This AM I juiced 1 grapefruit, 1 organge, 1 pear, 1 apple, making 32 oz of fresh live raw juice. 16 oz for my wife and myself. I added 1 oz of wheat grass juice to each glass. If juicing is not as nature intended, then why do we cook our food? We are the only animal on the planet that's cook its food.

What's the most nuritional part of a carrot? It is the green top that grows above ground. It has 10 times the vit. A as the body of the carrot we eat. Problem is the taste. Yuk! Grazing animals always eat the carrot top. Think they know something we don't?

Silver Fox!

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Re: Dr Stoll: Dairy (others please feel free to chime in)

Posted by ukchris [10820.4621] on June 24, 2008 at 13:30:36:

In Reply to: Re: Dr Stoll: Dairy (others please feel free to chime in) posted by Steve [4710.3394] on June 24, 2008 at 12:45:03:

Thanks Steve. Interesting.

We may be the only animal that cooks food, but aren't we also the only animal to juice it? If eating one pound of carrots is hard to do, and therefore must be juiced, did nature intend this at all then? Or do you think it's necessary to do so because food is not as nutritional as in the past?

Where did you learn about cooking killing enzymes? I have been meaning to buy Dr Fuhrman's book.

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Re: Raw Foods

Posted by k. [80.56] on June 24, 2008 at 14:12:07:

In Reply to: Re: Raw Foods posted by Lurch [2616.4558] on June 24, 2008 at 12:29:46:


Lurch, are you still following the ERFYT blood diet, and how does this Ayurvedic philosophy fit in?

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Re: Dr Stoll: Dairy (others please feel free to chime in)

Posted by Steve [4710.3394] on June 24, 2008 at 14:29:45:

In Reply to: Re: Dr Stoll: Dairy (others please feel free to chime in) posted by ukchris [10820.4621] on June 24, 2008 at 13:30:36:

You have the answer, our food is not as nutritional today.

I have several books on enzymens. Jan, gave me a book, The complete Book of Enzyme Therapy.

Silver Fox!

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Re: Dr Stoll: Dairy (others please feel free to chime in)

Posted by Steve [4710.3394] on June 24, 2008 at 14:29:58:

In Reply to: Re: Dr Stoll: Dairy (others please feel free to chime in) posted by ukchris [10820.4621] on June 24, 2008 at 13:30:36:

You have the answer, our food is not as nutritional today.

I have several books on enzymens. Jan, gave me a book, The complete Book of Enzyme Therapy.

Silver Fox!

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Re: Dr Stoll: Dairy (others please feel free to chime in)

Posted by Steve [4710.3394] on June 24, 2008 at 14:30:03:

In Reply to: Re: Dr Stoll: Dairy (others please feel free to chime in) posted by ukchris [10820.4621] on June 24, 2008 at 13:30:36:

You have the answer, our food is not as nutritional today.

I have several books on enzymens. Jan, gave me a book, The complete Book of Enzyme Therapy.

Silver Fox!

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Re: Raw Foods

Posted by Eric [962.4559] on June 24, 2008 at 15:15:47:

In Reply to: Raw Foods posted by Lurch [2616.4558] on June 24, 2008 at 10:37:18:

It is true that many vegetables and nuts contain (slightly) toxic substances that are neutralized by cooking/fermenting and soaking, respectively. The history of soy in Asia is a great example of this.

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Re: Dr Stoll: Dairy (others please feel free to chime in)

Posted by Eric [962.4559] on June 24, 2008 at 15:42:22:

In Reply to: Re: Dr Stoll: Dairy (others please feel free to chime in) posted by ukchris [1490.2450] on June 23, 2008 at 17:05:09:

Hi ukchris,

I had some hesitation trying raw egg yolks, but after two or so, I began to notice the subtle flavor and wonderful creaminess. They almost taste like nothing at first, but after you've had a couple you'll notice a mild but deep wholesome taste. Mercola describes it as being like "vanilla" and I know what he means although I wouldn't put it that way. Now cooked yolks don't taste nearly as yummy to me (but I still have them sometimes too).

Later on I braved some whole raw eggs (no, not with the shell) once when I was in a hurry. It was not too bad but sort of disappointing--the white isn't too exciting and totally blocks the yolk experience.

I do indeed eat meat: liverwurst with breakfast, coldcuts for lunch, something cooked but as rare as possible for dinner--at least one of those options each day, often two. I prefer the liverwurst undercooked and spreadable (but this depends on how the butcher prepares it). I love sushi (though I suspect quality is everything when it comes to the health value of sushi).

I find fresh raw milk totally delicious--tastes much better than pasteurized milk. Unfortunately it often sours quickly--as soon as 24 hours if you leave it out of the fridge although we've had it stay fresh for a week in the fridge. Soured raw milk is totally safe (unlike pasteurized milk gone bad), and-- don't get too grossed out here, it did take a little courage the first time--I have gotten used to the flavor just so as not to have to throw it out. It's not my preference to drink it this way, but if you look around you'll find folks with recipes for very soured milk. As an experiment I once left out a batch for a week--just like they said it would, it turned into totally edible yogurt-like creamy stuff. When I have time I am going to find something to make with this new and interesting ingredient!

We usually eat our dinner veggies cooked out of habit, but I always try to eat a raw veggie salad with lunch. And whole fruit with breakfast every day, always raw of course.

Cheers,
Eric

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Re: Dr Stoll: Dairy (others please feel free to chime in)

Posted by Amy [3201.2965] on June 24, 2008 at 16:13:58:

In Reply to: Dr Stoll: Dairy (others please feel free to chime in) posted by ukchris [10820.4621] on June 23, 2008 at 09:03:32:

Chris,
I love eggs and eat them daily. I can not eat milk products. I try feta on and off in my salads and that seems to be all I can handle. I think eggs would give you the protien to help your diet, but I like nuts as well. Feel good!!
Amy

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Re: Raw Foods

Posted by Lurch [2616.4558] on June 24, 2008 at 16:16:01:

In Reply to: Re: Raw Foods posted by k. [80.56] on June 24, 2008 at 14:12:07:

ER4YT and Ayurveda are a lot different, at least for an O non sec and a Vata.

ER says no dairy for an O, but Vata says dairy is OK (but high quality dairy only. (One thing they both agree on is that ghee is very beneficial.)

Vata says rice with each meal - 50% of total. ER says little to no grains.

Vata says no broccoli - ER says broc is very beneficial.

I'm trying to figure out which is the more powerful way to eat for me, and possibly combine them.



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Re: Raw Foods

Posted by k. [80.56] on June 24, 2008 at 16:25:00:

In Reply to: Re: Raw Foods posted by Lurch [2616.4558] on June 24, 2008 at 16:16:01:


Thanks Lurch. If it were me, I might try each diet seperately first, for about a month or two, just to see which one is most agreeable. Keep us posted, the results should be interesting. Good luck.

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Re: Dr Stoll: Dairy (others please feel free to chime in)

Posted by ukchris [10820.4621] on June 24, 2008 at 20:25:53:

In Reply to: Re: Dr Stoll: Dairy (others please feel free to chime in) posted by Eric [962.4559] on June 24, 2008 at 15:42:22:

Thanks Eric. Your posts are always thoughtful and interesting. How do you eat your raw eggs exactly? On toast? Or alone out of a bowl or something? Do you drink it or use a spoon? I have never seen somebody eat a raw egg and not sure what it goes with for a meal!

Maybe I'll be brave and try one, but I don't think I'd use eggs from a supermarket in case of salmonella poisoning.

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Re: Dr Stoll: Dairy (others please feel free to chime in)

Posted by ukchris [10820.4621] on June 24, 2008 at 20:26:42:

In Reply to: Re: Dr Stoll: Dairy (others please feel free to chime in) posted by Steve [4710.3394] on June 24, 2008 at 14:30:03:

Thanks Steve. Interesting. I appreciate your answers.

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Re: Dr Stoll: Dairy (others please feel free to chime in)

Posted by ukchris [10820.4621] on June 24, 2008 at 20:28:32:

In Reply to: Re: Dr Stoll: Dairy (others please feel free to chime in) posted by Amy [3201.2965] on June 24, 2008 at 16:13:58:

Nuts are good but addictive! I have no discipline when it comes to a bag of nuts on my computer desk.....

So have you tried raw eggs? I'd love to know how many people on here have and if not, why not. Safety I guess is the first reason, but there's also something a bit yucky about it!

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Re: Dr Stoll: Dairy (others please feel free to chime in)

Posted by Eric [962.4559] on June 25, 2008 at 14:22:23:

In Reply to: Re: Dr Stoll: Dairy (others please feel free to chime in) posted by ukchris [10820.4621] on June 24, 2008 at 20:25:53:

Hi ukchris,

How I cook my eggs is pretty close to having them sunny-side-up on toast. Here's the procedure in all its glorious detail: I take a small cup and a yolk-sized spoon, break the egg into the cup, and then pour the white out into another container while using the spoon to hold the yolk in the cup, trying not to break it. This is not totally simple as you will quickly find out. Still the yolk of a very fresh egg will hold up surprisingly well and not break under light poking from the spoon.

By the way, during this operation is the moment to decide whether or not the egg is good. If the white is watery, if the yolk totally falls apart, and above all if there is a strong smell--then this egg has already been compromised. Throw it out! (Or if it doesn't smell bad, I would be inclined to cook it all the way through--but that's no fun at all.) A good egg will have none-to-mild odor. Also an egg may still be good but be some days to weeks old, and then the yolk will break more easily under gentle handling. This is not the same as "totally falling apart" (if you ever experience the latter you will know what I am talking about). But if the yolk breaks it does make separating the white pretty annoying.

Other people will surely have other techniques for this. My mother (and also my fiancee, who is now clamoring for credit as she reads over my shoulder) breaks the shell in half and then dumps the yolk back and forth between the two half shells, the white falling out around them all the while (hopefully into a bowl or pan or something). I think this may be the standard way but I always manage to screw it up and go back to my little cup and spoon.

Nowadays when I separate the white it goes straight into a frying pan (already heated with coconut oil)-- then I tip the yolk out of the cup onto some buttered toast and spread it out with a knife, to be followed by the cooked white.

Still, if you've never done it before, tipping the yolk straight into your mouth will be an adventurous, exciting and surprising experience! A wholesome thrill that will help you bond with nature's perfect food...

All the best,
Eric

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Re: Dr Stoll: Dairy (others please feel free to chime in)

Posted by Eric [962.4559] on June 25, 2008 at 14:37:03:

In Reply to: Re: Dr Stoll: Dairy (others please feel free to chime in) posted by Steve [4710.3394] on June 24, 2008 at 12:45:03:

Hi guys,

I agree with what Steve is saying about enzymes, based on the information about them in the book "The Untold Story of Milk". Thanks for the heads up about that enzyme book though! It sounds like a winner.

I do wonder though about letting air come into contact with the "essence" of the veggies. This would seem to me to hasten the destruction of lots of vital nutrients. So either drink it immediately after juicing, or don't use an ordinary kitchen blender which really mixes air in with food--squeezing is probably much better in this regard. I don't know what happens inside a proper juicing machine--but based on the lack of foam I suspect those are also good.

By the way, I have tried eating raw carrot greens. If you try you will learn why rabbits have those blade-like front teeth capable of taking thousands of quick tiny nibbles: the stuff is tough as rope! Except maybe for the leafy bits.

Cheers,
Eric

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Re: Dr Stoll: Dairy (others please feel free to chime in)

Posted by Steve [4710.3394] on June 25, 2008 at 15:31:29:

In Reply to: Re: Dr Stoll: Dairy (others please feel free to chime in) posted by Eric [962.4559] on June 25, 2008 at 14:37:03:

Yes, air whipped into raw juice will aid its demise. Juice should comsumed within 20 minutes after you make it. You can put it in a thermos and keep it fresh for up to 8 hours.

Silver Fox!

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Re: Dr Stoll: Dairy (others please feel free to chime in)

Posted by ukchris [10820.4621] on June 25, 2008 at 19:32:23:

In Reply to: Re: Dr Stoll: Dairy (others please feel free to chime in) posted by Eric [962.4559] on June 25, 2008 at 14:22:23:

Thanks so much for this detailed description Eric, I will bear this in mind for future reference.

And "hi" to your fiancee over your shoulder! :-)

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Re: Dr Stoll: Dairy (others please feel free to chime in)

Posted by Amy [3201.2965] on June 25, 2008 at 21:49:52:

In Reply to: Re: Dr Stoll: Dairy (others please feel free to chime in) posted by ukchris [10820.4621] on June 24, 2008 at 20:28:32:

Sorry Chris, To me that would taste awful!! I like my eggs either hardboiled with a little organic mayo or an omlet with chopped onions, tomatoes, and sometimes peppers and or feta cheese.

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Re: Dr Stoll: Dairy (others please feel free to chime in)

Posted by PhillyLady [5066.4558] on June 25, 2008 at 22:02:21:

In Reply to: Re: Dr Stoll: Dairy (others please feel free to chime in) posted by ukchris [10820.4621] on June 24, 2008 at 20:28:32:

Chris:

You can make natural mayonnaise using raw eggs. It's delicious. There are other recipes that use raw eggs, eggnog for example.

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natural diet vs. healthy diet

Posted by Eric [962.4559] on June 26, 2008 at 14:08:10:

In Reply to: Re: Dr Stoll: Dairy (others please feel free to chime in) posted by ukchris [10820.4621] on June 24, 2008 at 09:56:08:

Ahh, a fellow purist. I love to think about things like this too--the meaning of "natural". Here are some thoughts about it, since you posed the question.

You might take the point of view that no food at all is natural, which you seemed to be getting at already in your post: if a critter wanders about the Earth, it will find all kinds of new things it can eat--discoveries, things the critter had never eaten before, maybe no critter ever ate before. Over long stretches of time, critters such as people perform lots of "experiments" about what "works" when you eat it and what doesn't work so well (tummy ache or worse). For instance, it seems our kidneys are much larger than we need--because in prehistoric times, people ate a lot of kidney-damaging plants (note by the way these were totally "natural"). At the end of long stretches of time, the results of all those "experiments" come down to us in the form of dietary/culinary traditions. Whether it is "natural" isn't nearly as important as the massive amount of "scientific" evidence that has accumulated over history to support the "hypothesis" that such-and-such food is safe and good for you--good because people who ate it survived in large numbers, in good health and bore healthy children over many generations.

Incidentally, in the 20th century we've just completed a lot of new such experiments demonstrating that certain "foods" are quite unhealthy. Examples include refined sugar, pharmaceutical drugs, and even unfermented soy products. We might consider ourselves lucky that we can learn so quickly (one century isn't much compared to the millenia of repeated food poisonings our ancestors must have endured).

As far as milk being intolerable (I'll leave wheat aside since I don't know enough about it), the history of cow's milk includes centuries of safe and healthy use in weaning human babies off of breast milk. This worked fine as long as everyone lived on a family farm and had their own milk cow in the back yard (eating green grass of course), which was the case for the great majority of Europeans and Americans until the end of the 19th century. Then people started moving into big cities, and the first factory dairies were started, with almost all the filth, poor feeding and awful living conditions of the modern farm industry. And *that* is when milk became the single largest cause not only of infant sickness but infant mortality--to which pasteurization was *a* solution. But there was another solution--certified raw milk. Its demise is a sad story of money politics.

And finally about milk, you will find many people who are lactose intolerant but have no trouble drinking raw milk. This is because milk naturally contains the enzyme(!) lactase, which is what you need to digest lactose. And lactase, along with lots of other useful enzymes, is destroyed by heating. As another example, milk has calcium and phosphorus, both essential minerals for strong bones and other things. And milk naturally contains enzymes, like phosphatase, that enable a person to absorb and use these minerals (phosphatase for phosphorus). Guess what the official test for complete pasteurization is? They measure the level of phosphatase and check that it is zero. So: does milk really build strong bones? I would add pasteurization to your list of things that are definitely not natural.

But also to come back to the point, let's ask why we like to use "natural" as a criterion for food. For my part, I wouldn't mind a food being totally unnatural if it made me healthy (and it were affordable, its production were sustainable, etc.). But this almost never seems to happen (exception: some supplements). The point of thinking about naturalness is something you got at already in your post: things that are not natural are often, in our collective experience, not healthy. So "natural" is useful as a criterion because it is (often) a necessary condition for healthiness (but not sufficient). The point is: we are really interested in the health value of the food (and affordability, sustainability, etc.) and we just take "naturalness" as a useful time-tested guidepost to wholesome nutrition.

All the best,
Eric

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Re: natural diet vs. healthy diet

Posted by ukchris [10820.4621] on June 27, 2008 at 07:43:10:

In Reply to: natural diet vs. healthy diet posted by Eric [962.4559] on June 26, 2008 at 14:08:10:

Hi again Eric.

Thanks for your thoughts on this topic. Everything you wrote makes sense to me and I agree with.

Do you think that pasteurised milk is pretty useless in comparison to raw milk then? I don't know anybody who drinks raw milk. My parents drink that horrible skimmed milk. I used to complain and say it would be better to pour water on my cornflakes! Do you think humans should eat any raw meat, in accordance with our ancestral past? Does it lose nutrition during cooking? I thought I would throw that question in so we've covered all bases here :-)

It would be nice if this topic was archived for future reference, I will post to ask.

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Re: Dr Stoll: Dairy (others please feel free to chime in) archive?

Posted by ukchris [10820.4621] on June 27, 2008 at 07:47:05:

In Reply to: Dr Stoll: Dairy (others please feel free to chime in) posted by ukchris [10820.4621] on June 23, 2008 at 09:03:32:

Hi Bill & Walt,

I was wondering if you would consider archiving this topic in the Milk section? It would be nice to refer back, and useful for others I feel.

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Re: natural diet vs. healthy diet

Posted by Eric [962.4559] on June 27, 2008 at 16:59:42:

In Reply to: Re: natural diet vs. healthy diet posted by ukchris [10820.4621] on June 27, 2008 at 07:43:10:

Hi ukchris,

Well that is a good question. I definitely agree that skim milk is pretty much useless, as you put it, being created via ultra-pasteurization and having had all the fat removed--which may be the best part with all the fat-soluble vitamins! There was even a study that accidentally discovered that skim milk increases the risk of prostate cancer while whole milk decreases it (I've got that study somewhere around here...).

I think the answer to your question is something like the following. The method of pasteurization--especially the temperature level used--makes a huge difference, with ultra-pasteurization destroying almost all nutrients and creating the largest quantities of alien toxic substances (powdered milk, the processed food ingredient "milk protein", and most low-fat dairy products involve this violent process). Lower temperature pasteurization preserves more of the nutritional value. I understand that vitamin K is very heat resistant, whereas enzymes are easily destroyed at sub-pasteurization temperatures (even beginning at 50 degrees C). In a nutshell, there is a continuum of badness depending on how aggressively the milk has been treated.

And the story is the same with meat or any other food. Biological molecules are sometimes fragile and have varying degrees of stability, usually being able to survive some knocking around (heat is really the same thing as the uncoordinated energetic vibration of all the molecules of a substance). The harder the knocking around, the more likely the molecule will be damaged or break or get smashed together with another molecule or some combination of these processes. Then you've created random, possibly reactive molecules, likely to be toxic in any number of ways. For example, proteins are just chains of different amino acids in some sequence, and take their function not only from what amino acids they are made of but also the particular shape into which the amino acid chain is folded. Heat a protein and even if it doesn't break it may lose its proper shape, thus altering its biological function in a random way.

As for the ultimate effects of cooking, it is a matter of degree more than anything else. Cook something long enough, burn it so it turns black through and through, and all the nutrients will have been converted to toxins or at least rendered nutritionally worthless. But sear your steak and leave it rare in the middle, and you've sterilized the exposed exterior while leaving a far larger quantity of yummy good stuff inside intact. If it's no longer very fresh, you may want to cook it longer, sacrificing nutritional value for the sake of bacteriological safety. Freshness is a big part of quality.

And yes, if I can safely eat meat raw or almost raw, I try to do so, either by cooking as little as is necessary, or on rarer occasions (no pun intended), eating special recipes like: sushi, steak tartare, carpaccio (see Wikipedia). This requires special and careful preparation of course! I would never eat any meat raw that I got from the local supermarket. What a scary idea that is! Yeee-uuuck....

All the best,
Eric

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Dr Stoll: Dairy (others please feel free to chime in) archive?

Posted by Walt Stoll [93.3349] on June 28, 2008 at 07:10:36:

In Reply to: Re: Dr Stoll: Dairy (others please feel free to chime in) archive? posted by ukchris [10820.4621] on June 27, 2008 at 07:47:05:

Thanks, UK.

If my mental clarity were up to snuff, I would have thought of this myself. I appreciate the tip.

Walt

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Re: Dr Stoll: Dairy (others please feel free to chime in)

Posted by ANN [1003.2765] on June 28, 2008 at 08:32:21:

In Reply to: Re: Dr Stoll: Dairy (others please feel free to chime in) posted by ukchris [10820.4621] on June 24, 2008 at 20:28:32:

when you buy a big bag of nuts separate it into several smaller ziplock bags and only take a single serving of nuts to your computer desk-put the rest somewhere it takes effort to get to.

Forinspiration of consuming raw eggs, see the first ROCKY movie, where he downs a glassful of them as part of his training diet.

I had a couple of dogs with health problems and started feeding them raw eggs and buttermilk- they both got a lot better. My eldest dog had a large tumor DISAPPEAR on this diet (it had been on her for years and had gotten much larger in the last year).

As PL points out, eggnog uses raw eggs. People have been drinking it without problems for a long time, and I realize the food I make for the two dogs is just a version of eggnog. I'd recommend homemade eggnog (the commercial stuff is pasteurized, so probably lacks the health giving properties of raw egg) to anyone fighting cancer. As worst, it would provide some easily digestible protein and calories. At best, it might actually shrink tumors (can't say for sure when I've just seen that happen on one animal, but would love to hear about other's experience with it)

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Re: natural diet vs. healthy diet

Posted by ukchris [10820.4621] on June 28, 2008 at 09:11:18:

In Reply to: Re: natural diet vs. healthy diet posted by Eric [962.4559] on June 27, 2008 at 16:59:42:

Thanks Eric, once again. You should write a book with all of this useful information.

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Re: Dr Stoll: Dairy (others please feel free to chime in) archive?

Posted by ukchris [10820.4621] on June 28, 2008 at 09:11:41:

In Reply to: Dr Stoll: Dairy (others please feel free to chime in) archive? posted by Walt Stoll [93.3349] on June 28, 2008 at 07:10:36:

Thanks Walt, no worries.

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Re: Dr Stoll: Dairy (others please feel free to chime in)

Posted by ukchris [10820.4621] on June 28, 2008 at 09:18:22:

In Reply to: Re: Dr Stoll: Dairy (others please feel free to chime in) posted by ANN [1003.2765] on June 28, 2008 at 08:32:21:

Thanks ANN. Good tips!

I understand you are a vegan but I forget if this is for ethical or health reasons, or even both?

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Re: Dr Stoll: Dairy (others please feel free to chime in)

Posted by ANN [1003.2765] on June 29, 2008 at 09:53:59:

In Reply to: Re: Dr Stoll: Dairy (others please feel free to chime in) posted by ukchris [10820.4621] on June 28, 2008 at 09:18:22:

As a teen, I'd go off meat a lot, because it grossed me out. Some of that might have had to do with the fact that my parents liked their beef RARE-dripping blood. Never found any seafood remotely appetizing. We had no pasta or beans in the house, so my diet consisted mostly of lots of milk, eggs,peanut butter and white bread-also ice cream and cake.

When I moved out at 17, I added french fries, orange juice in large quantities, and milk shakes to those few items. Long-term, it wasn't a healthy diet and I often wouldn't feel good, so I'd try meat for awhile, then go back to my vegetarian eating (that seldom included vegetables).

When my health got really bad, the universe tossed an article on macrobiotics in front of me. I tried it. WOW-in 5 days I was feeling SO much better. Stayed with it for 6 years. Traditional macrobiotics includes fish, but, since I've never liked seafood, I did it vegan. So my reason was primarily health. I got a macrobiotic first aid book and one of their remedies for heart pain is to mix a raw egg with half an eggshell full of shoyu. I swallowed a few if those mixss, but otherwise avoided eggs. I found eggs to be an effective medicine back then and am coming back to that idea through my experience with the dogs. Thinking about it, egg yolks must be a mass of stem cells to be able to turn into a chicken.

Having married an animal rights person and raised some kids who are absolute zealots when it comes to veganism, the ethical aspects figure into my family's veganism a lot now, but weren't the original impetus.
My husband became a vegetariam (including eggs and milk) at 12, after visiting a slaughterhouse. As a single guy, pizza and macaroni and cheese were a large part of his diet. I guess he thought about giving up those animal products over the years, but his lack of cooking skills and busy life kept him from that path. When he found himself a vegan to marry, he saw it as an opportunity to give up eggs and dairy, and did so.

We've since altered his diet along the lines of the blood type diet and he no longer eats wheat, oats, barley, rye, potaotes, tomatoes, or peppers. Those changes improved his health a lot.
For me, I think giving up dairy was the best thing that ever happened to my health-my arthritis disappeared and my bones got strong OFF dairy (I had lots of leg and ankle injuries during those years where I cinsumed a lot of milk).

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Re: Dr Stoll: Dairy (others please feel free to chime in)

Posted by ukchris [10820.4621] on June 29, 2008 at 11:00:26:

In Reply to: Re: Dr Stoll: Dairy (others please feel free to chime in) posted by ANN [1003.2765] on June 29, 2008 at 09:53:59:

Thanks ANN,

I have a few more questions, if you don't mind. I numbered them to make it easier for you to answer.

1) Do you eat seasonally? I read that some people following a macrobiotic diet follow seasonal guidelines.
2) Did you eat vegan when pregnant and raise your kids entirely as vegan? If so, how have they turned out in terms of their health, physical stature and intelligence? Did you receive any criticism from other people?
3) I am finding that eggs make me feel better, as sometimes I feel drained otherwise. It's not quite the same sensation as being physically exhausted but a fatigue and mental fogginess. Does this sound like what you experienced, and if so do you think it is caused by a lack of b12 (which I can get in the eggs)? I often wonder how I would feel if I ate meat again (it's been almost 8 years now), but compromising my ethics prevents me from even experimenting. Would you say I need the eggs/dairy in my diet? Admittedly my diet is not very good at times so that could be a big factor.
4) Did you and your husband give up dairy and eggs for the same ethical reasons that you gave up meat, or was/is it purely about health?
5) Did you also do the blood type diet along with the macrobiotic or was this only for your husband? I think I remember you writing that your husband had certain food allergies even when on the macrobiotic diet. It's interesting that you combined those two dietary sciences.

Sorry for so many questions but I find your experiences interesting and educational. This will go into the archive so hopefully others can learn with me :-) Thanks a lot, I appreciate your help.



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Re: Dr Stoll: Dairy (others please feel free to chime in)

Posted by ANN [1003.2765] on June 29, 2008 at 14:33:15:

In Reply to: Re: Dr Stoll: Dairy (others please feel free to chime in) posted by ukchris [10820.4621] on June 29, 2008 at 11:00:26:

1) Do you eat seasonally? I read that some people following a macrobiotic diet follow seasonal guidelines.

1-I don't think of it as seasonally, so much as locally. Macrobiotics recommends eating food that is capable of growing in your local area-there are no watermelon farms nearby, but I could plant watermelon seeds in my garden and they'd grow well, so I will buy and serve watermelon occasionally in Summer, though only if no one is sick, since melons are fairly yin. We don't eat citrus or tropical fruits. We believe those things exist to replenish the nutrients one loses in hot climate. Of course, they'd be best for people living without air conditioning and working outdoors in those regions. Spending a week in an air conditioned hotel in the tropics wouldn't be a good reason to eat tropical fruits-one's body isn't being subjected to the tropics the way natives are.
Likewise, citrus grows in Florida and California and might be appropriate for people who work outside and live without air conditioning, or for people who spend most of the day on the beach, even, but really isn't appropriate for a life going from cooled offices to cooled homes. Vegetation of those places is to compensate for the conditions natives and early settlers lived under. For most people, technology is the current compensation, making the native fruits inappropriate to the needs of the body.

2) Did you eat vegan when pregnant and raise your kids entirely as vegan? If so, how have they turned out in terms of their health, physical stature and intelligence? Did you receive any criticism from other people?

2.Yes, I ate vegan while pregnant, but not all that healthy. I had visions of eating lots of collard greens and brown rice while pregnant, but couldn't actually stomach it. I couldn't even handle Great Harvest Whole Grain Breads- they were too rich. I found a nice , bland Cloud Cliff whole wheat bread and ate a lot of whole wheat toast with margarine and edensoy to drink. Sometimes I managed a little peanut butter or a raw carrot. I ate a lot of ice. I can't recommend my pregnancy diet (and no longer eat margarine, but no one ever mentioned trans fats back then). Until you've been pregnant, you can't understand what it does to your digestion-so much for plans.
The kids have only eaten whole grain vegan. I only thought I'd be giving them maybe 12 less years of meat and dairy than most folks and then they'd be going off and eating cheeseburgers on their own, but hasn't happened-the kids are super committed to the vegan thing.
note: an early pediatrician corrected me when I said my kids are vegan-breast milk isn't vegan, according to him-even if it comes from a vegan. Would be interesting to see if analysis of breast milk from people on different diets is very different. Anyway, other than breast milk, the kids have always been whole grain vegan.
The kids are very bright, growing normally-one who looks like a clone of his father is 16 and as tall as his father. The others take after my side of the family and are a bit taller than their father. They have had few acute illnesses, which I attribute to lack of dairy and lack of vaccines. One got sick several times in a couple of years before we figured out he had developed a gluten intolerance. Once off gluten, he stopped getting those illnesses. Two kids have type 1 diabetes. It is considered an auto-immune disease, viral in nature, but the cause has not been isolated. My small town has 5 cases of it, only 2 in my family. I suspect some environmental contribution. Anyway, most type 1's aren't vegetarian, so that doesn't seem to be the connection. Some type 1's show antibodies to cow's milk, so dairy is being investigated as a cause, but so are mumps and pertussis-none of which my kids have had.
No, I haven't run into criticism of feeding the kids vegan. The SW is a pretty tolerant place. Rancher's wives ask for recipes using tofu and soymilk and are interested in baking with whole grain and honey.


3) I am finding that eggs make me feel better, as sometimes I feel drained otherwise. It's not quite the same sensation as being physically exhausted but a fatigue and mental fogginess. Does this sound like what you experienced, and if so do you think it is caused by a lack of b12 (which I can get in the eggs)? I often wonder how I would feel if I ate meat again (it's been almost 8 years now), but compromising my ethics prevents me from even experimenting. Would you say I need the eggs/dairy in my diet? Admittedly my diet is not very good at times so that could be a big factor.

3. I don't really believe anyone NEEDS dairy-I think milk is a big contributor to health problems. Butter seems to be an exception to dairy problems. Eggs, of course, AREN'T dairy. I believe they might be curative for some problems, when used raw. Feeling stronger could come from B-12 or cholesterol in the eggs (or even lecithin). I believe many people eat a vegetarian diet that is deficient in protein. It is possible they could improve it without eggs, simply by including more nuts,seeds, beans, and soy. If one has an ethical problem with eggs, it would make sense to try the other protein source first, and then decide.
While eggs are a non-kill product of chickens, there are still questions of the conditions under which the chickens live and the question of whether , as they age, chickens become inefficient egg producers and are sold off for slaughter-I don't know the answer, but would suspect that would be the case. Of course, in getting all those hens to lay eggs, one also produces male birds, which would mostly wind up slaughtered, so I'd think it continued to be an animal slaughter issue, even thought the deaths are less immediate.

But, if eggs should prove to be curative, then they'd go into the category of other meds that involve animal death-each person makes up their own mind whether they'll accept such meds-all the time, if really sick, if dying, or never.
4) Did you and your husband give up dairy and eggs for the same ethical reasons that you gave up meat, or was/is it purely about health?

4. I think he never really felt good about eating animal products and that continuing to eat them made him feel lacking in self-discipline. I think he ultimately gave them up to feel more in control of himself. Me, I gave them up as part of the macrobiotic diet. When I occasionally tried to go back to milk or cream cheese, I'd get an immediate bad reaction, which I didn't get when milk was part of my regualr diet. It became clear, once off dairy for a while, that it had been bad for me (colds,pneumonia,flu,strep, arthritis) and that going back to it was a really bad idea. Ethics, for me, simply became part of the whole issue when I started researching dairy and reading books about farming methods-it's more a reason not to go back, than it was a reason to quit. But my health is the strongest reason not to eat dairy.
I don't think eggs are bad for most people- they might actually be quite good for you. Whether you're content with what happens to old hens and young male chickens not needed by the egg farm is your own decision.

5) Did you also do the blood type diet along with the macrobiotic or was this only for your husband? I think I remember you writing that your husband had certain food allergies even when on the macrobiotic diet. It's interesting that you combined those two dietary sciences.

5. the wonderful thing about the blood type diet is that it can be combined with just about any other diet- want to do Atkins?-use the blood type diet list for meat and fish types. Want to do Ornish or McDougall? Apply the appropriate blood type lists to those diets. It's very compatible.
I hadn'theard of the blood type diet when I went macrobiotic, so , no , I didn't use them together.
When my husband and I decided to this vegan whole grain diet for the family we were starting, it was decidedly NOT macrobiotic. My husband loved pasta,bread,spagetti sauce, margarine, and orange juice. I simply started serving whole grain versions of his favorite foods, but macrobiotics would've recommended whole grains, mostly rice; not whole wheat flour, which was the dominant grain we used when starting out. Over the years, thanks to an experiment with a vegan version of Atkins and reading the blood type diet and Erasmus Udo's book on fat, wheat has been removed from his diet as was most stuff made from flours. He stopped eating tomato products and potatoes (another old favorite of his). He stopped drinking orange juice (the rest of us never used the stuff). His diet has evolved to something near to macrobiotics, due to health concerns. His sinus problems, for which surgery was recommended, cleared up just by going off gluten and limiting other grains. His arthritis responded to getting nightshades out of his diet. Early on, we used mostly safflower oil. We don't even have that in the house anymore- we use only olive oil for cooking and some canola, walnut, and flax oil for non-heating purposes.

Part of all this has been a change in available info (or info we became aware of) and part has been just listening to our bodies. We've added a lot more vegan protein and limited carbohydrates, due to all the reading I've done on diabetes and the glycemic index.

One way we type A's in the family have used the blood type diet is in regards to A'Damo's list of nuts. We used to buy alot of cashews and pistachios. After reading the blood type diet, I stopped buying those. The type A's in the family eat lots more peanuts now. The type O's eat walnuts mostly.

When it comes to feeding a family, what they find in the fridge and the cupboards is going to be a big influence on what they eat. When people are sitting watching tv or using the computer, I stick a bowl of raw carrot sticks in front of them. It gets eaten, mostly because it's there.
uk-try it with your Mom and Dad.




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Re: Dr Stoll: Dairy (others please feel free to chime in)

Posted by ukchris [10820.4621] on June 30, 2008 at 08:49:50:

In Reply to: Re: Dr Stoll: Dairy (others please feel free to chime in) posted by ANN [1003.2765] on June 29, 2008 at 14:33:15:

Thanks ANN. This must have taken you a long time to type! I appreciate it! :-)

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