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Update on my battle with baby vaccines

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Update on my battle with baby vaccines

Posted by Jennifer [4650.2291] on November 10, 2005 at 11:22:21:

My husband finally agreed to at least hold off on my baby's vaccines until she is older. Yeah!!! I do want to get her tetanus vaccine series but the Dr. says they only have tetanus with diptheria. Is the diptheria not very likely to cause bad reactions unlike the pertussis? We have horses and there is always the occasional nail around here, so I want her to be protected from tetanus when she is walking. I am also thinking about getting the HIB, any thoughts on that one? Thanks for all the help!!!!



Re: Update on my battle with baby vaccines

Posted by ANN [1003.516] on November 10, 2005 at 12:43:31:

In Reply to: Update on my battle with baby vaccines posted by Jennifer [4650.2291] on November 10, 2005 at 11:22:21:

I've read that HIB is 6 times more prevalent in kids in daycare than home raised kids, so it partly depends on where she is being raised.
I'm not up on diptheria vaccine- you might want to research it on www.909shot.com or check the book: Vaccines: Are they really safe and effective by Neil Z Miller. He deals with each vaccine individually. Note: the first edition of his book didn't include smallpox and anthrax, a later edition did, so you might want to get the later edition, because it has more info.
Waiting till later in life is definitely better than vaccinating a baby. It's also helpful to make sure the baby is at maximum nutrition- use a baby vitamin supplement for months before vaccinating. As for tetanus- if the baby isn't walking yet, what they might step on isn't a concern yet. Since they usually do a tetanus shot at the time of an injury, you might want to research whether the series before that is really necessary (as the effectiveness of the series adults go as children has probably expired by the time we, as adults, injure ourselves and consider a tetanus booster).

Note: in pertussis vaccine, a Japanese version approved in the US for use after age 2 is supposed to be safer than the US version used both at 2 months and for subsequent shots.
Another issue, if you are waiting till later- the effects of most childhood diseases on older kids usually aren't as severe as for infants, making the shots even less necessary.



Re: Update on my battle with baby vaccines

Posted by blissy [4.1399] on November 10, 2005 at 21:47:57:

In Reply to: Re: Update on my battle with baby vaccines posted by ANN [1003.516] on November 10, 2005 at 12:43:31:

***Note: in pertussis vaccine, a Japanese version approved in the US for use after age 2 is supposed to be safer than the US version used both at 2 months and for subsequent shots***

Yes, and once Japan did this their infant rate mortality went waaaaay down, unlike the U.S.A where they rank MUCH higher for infant mortality rate and vaccinate MUCH earlier.

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Re: Update on my battle with baby vaccines (How about homeopathic vaccines???)

Posted by blissy [4.1399] on November 10, 2005 at 21:49:53:

In Reply to: Update on my battle with baby vaccines posted by Jennifer [4650.2291] on November 10, 2005 at 11:22:21:

Have you considered Homeopathic vaccines?

There has been a 20 year study done on them, and they are just as effective as conventional vaccines.





Re: Update on my battle with baby vaccines (How about homeopathic vaccines???)

Posted by R. [4746.2376] on November 11, 2005 at 00:26:00:

In Reply to: Re: Update on my battle with baby vaccines (How about homeopathic vaccines???) posted by blissy [4.1399] on November 10, 2005 at 21:49:53:

There has been a 20 year study done on them, and they are just as effective as conventional vaccines.

That tells me (and probably ANN too) that they are as useless. Hopefully, they produce less negative effects.

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Re: Update on my battle with baby vaccines

Posted by ceres [4710.1837] on November 12, 2005 at 00:42:32:

In Reply to: Update on my battle with baby vaccines posted by Jennifer [4650.2291] on November 10, 2005 at 11:22:21:

Hi Jennifer, I just introduced myself in another post so given my newness I hope you don't mind me adding my 2 cents here.

I have done some research on vaccines but not enough to feel confident on advising others, except to offer that according to my own philosophy, I would not choose to accept any vaccinations for my child if I could at all help it. Although I'm not a parent, which I realize makes it easier for me to state, I do have some first-hand anectodal experience here. I was not vaccinated at all as a child (neither were my siblings), and - although I guess I'll never know for sure - I believe I was always healthier for it.

I unfortunately let my university health clinic give me the shots (MMR at least) they required for full-time attendance. I may be wrong about this but I believe the university policy is more enforcable than the grade/high school ones, since they can just refuse to let you in otherwise, but I haven't gone back to confirm this.

I received my first tetanus shot (a massive booster) when I had a car accident soon after. You should have seen the looks on their faces when I told them I'd never had the shot before! I may be forgetting but I thought it was only tetanus they gave me w/o diptheria so you might want to look into that further. I also got my first polio shot, tetanus again (definitely w/ diptheria this time), as well as some other ugly vaccines when I went overseas a few years later, something else I couldn't readily fight if I wanted to go. I believe these have had their share of cumulative effects on me as an adult, likely contributing to my downward spiral of health, although again no way to confirm this I guess. I'm 32 now with a myriad of chronic ailments that thankfully do respond well to the 3LS, when I'm persistent. From my current vantage point, if I had to have these shots at all, I am grateful that it wasn't as a child.

I obviously have a slanted view due to my upbringing and personal philosophy, but I wanted to share that with you and others having to make that decision, in case that inspires you to dig into the research a little further. I think I have some resources laying around that would offer a more technical justification. It sounds like you have already done a lot of your own investigation, and I think it's great that you are taking the time and trouble. I apologize that I haven't followed your history here so I really don't know what other discussions you have had, although in general I've noticed a lot of discussion lately on this topic. In any case, I wish you well and don't hesitate to ask if you want to know more about my vaccine history, it's an open book... :)



Re: Update on my battle with baby vaccines

Posted by ANN [1003.516] on November 12, 2005 at 13:52:44:

In Reply to: Re: Update on my battle with baby vaccines posted by ceres [4710.1837] on November 12, 2005 at 00:42:32:

colleges can't violate your constitutional right to religious freedom, so have to allow you to opt out of vaccines if your objection is on a religious basis.
I believe WHO (world Health Organization) provided for exemptions to vaccines when travelling (though you can be quarantined, should an outbreak arise as you travel) but you'd have to look into the details.



Re: Update on my battle with baby vaccines

Posted by ceres [4710.1837] on November 12, 2005 at 15:42:57:

In Reply to: Re: Update on my battle with baby vaccines posted by ANN [1003.516] on November 12, 2005 at 13:52:44:

I (and my parents) object entirely on a philosophical/ health freedom basis. I do think my parents had to claim religious reasons to keep me from getting shots during school with as little resistance as possible.

Too bad when I got to college I wasn't better prepared to challenge their requirements. I figured they could just deny me entrance if they wanted. And I had no idea about the WHO exemption. Good to know if I decide to travel again!

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Re: Update on my battle with baby vaccines

Posted by blissy [4.1399] on November 12, 2005 at 20:38:55:

In Reply to: Re: Update on my battle with baby vaccines posted by ANN [1003.516] on November 12, 2005 at 13:52:44:

we will be travelling soon with our baby overseas,and I don't want him to get those shots. Whats the best advice? I don't know if it's required in order to travel overseas. It's just to america.

Also, I think when my little boy starts school is when we will have to get a letter stating why he is not going to be vaccinated conventionally, although I do have him on a homeopathic program for that.
also, I know daycare require a letter from the doc, but he won't be put into daycare at all, so that's not an issue.

Ann, what did you tell the doc the reason for not vaccinating your children?



Re: Update on my battle with baby vaccines

Posted by R. [4746.2376] on November 12, 2005 at 23:52:18:

In Reply to: Re: Update on my battle with baby vaccines posted by blissy [4.1399] on November 12, 2005 at 20:38:55:

I've traveled to Turkey even, and the question of vaccination never came up.



Re: Update on my battle with baby vaccines

Posted by ceres [4710.1837] on November 13, 2005 at 07:43:21:

In Reply to: Re: Update on my battle with baby vaccines posted by R. [4746.2376] on November 12, 2005 at 23:52:18:

I travelled to Southeast Asia (from U.S.) and I just pulled out my record to refresh my memory. Other than the polio series I had never had before, I received typhoid and Hep A & B.

I did go to live for a period of time to teach, so maybe the requirements are different than if I were travelling through. Then again, if they weren't required nobody was going to rush to tell me... and again I didn't try to challenge it. Too bad.

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Re: Update on my battle with baby vaccines

Posted by ANN [1003.516] on November 13, 2005 at 08:17:32:

In Reply to: Re: Update on my battle with baby vaccines posted by blissy [4.1399] on November 12, 2005 at 20:38:55:

I don't know the laws of your country, it would be wise to make contact with anti-vaccine parents in your country who have been dealing with it for more years. Ways to find people might be through chiropractors, health food stores, homeschool groups, and the internet.
As for travel, ask at the passport office about what is required (and possibly at the US consul). When I had a blood test for getting married, there was a requirement in that state for measles vaccine for women before marriage, but, on the back of the form for the blood test and other requirements was info on opting out of that requirement, which I did.
In the US, we have religious exemptions constitutionally protected in all 50 states, philosophical exemptions in about half the states (often states with a higher percentage of atheist/agnostics), and medical exemptions in all 50 states.
I simple told the doctor for my first baby that I considered vaccines unsafe. I also told him I considered fluouride a poison (he told me, since I was breastfeeding, I'd want to give the kid fluouride drops-I told him no). Two days after I refused vaccines, the police were at my door, investigating 'possible child neglect'. Since refusing vaccines isn't illegal here, it blew over (I told the social worker what the doctor's problem was) and I switched to a female pediatrician who was on the board of the La Leche League.
Stopped going to the pediatrician as a regular thing (check up, no illness) when the first was about 15 months, because I wanted to get pregnant and didn't want to be exposed to all that illness in the waiting room. The kid was never sick and I figured I could weigh and measure him myself (I had obtained a copy of the growth graph to use). Subsequent kids never saw a doctor until ill, which was rare (we started using the community swimming pool when the second was 5 or 6 and he'd get one earache per summer, none the rest of the year). ids without vaccines or dairy just don't get sick much (they've been raised with cats and dogs , play in the dirt, and we use simple soap, not antibacterial cleaners- I think all that helps the immune system).
At schools here, you can file a paper to avoid vaccines, but I home school, so the issue doesn't come up. In conventional schools (public and private), even if you don't vaccinate, your child will be indoctrinated into the idea that vaccines are healthy and that a 'healthy' diet is quite different that what you tell him it is. First grade science, they show pictures of food and tell the kid to circle the healthy ones-if my kids followed my beliefs and didn't circle chicken legs, cheese, milk, and orange juice (none of which I serve) they would be told they are WRONG. In the early grades in the US, milk is served in class, to everyone. When a friend of mine decided she wanted her kids off dairy, the teacher refused to cooperate, even though the mom provided small soymilks for her kids, the teacher kept serving them cow's milk. Very few schools will keep you child on the health path you want for him (except, perhaps, a Buddhist school, or some other unusual religious school).



travel vaccinations

Posted by ANN [1003.516] on November 13, 2005 at 08:50:40:

In Reply to: Re: Update on my battle with baby vaccines posted by blissy [4.1399] on November 12, 2005 at 20:38:55:

I googled this topic and found this site. I clicked on north america, then on USA-no vaccines recommended.Then I clicked on Australasia, then Australia- mostly nothing required- said yellow fever vaccine sometimes recommended- could be it depends on which country you are coming back from-probably should check your country's board of health site.
Do note whether things are 'recommended' or 'required'-of course, get the most current info from the gov'ts of the two countries .
With all the talk of a flu pandemic, I don't know if travel is the wisest thing to do right now-do you have relatives here you want to show the baby to?
I've never considered long flights with babies a good idea-figure travel with kids is better when they are old enough to remember the trip and what they saw.



Re: Update on my battle with baby vaccines

Posted by ceres [4710.1837] on November 13, 2005 at 10:05:48:

In Reply to: Re: Update on my battle with baby vaccines posted by ANN [1003.516] on November 13, 2005 at 08:17:32:

Ann, while nothing you posted is a surprise to me, it makes me sad. I admire what you are able to withstand for the sake of your children. I may never have children for fear of being charged with neglect, knowing the way I would choose to raise them.

My parents had that risk, and perhaps I don't even know half of what they went through to protect us. I was almost home-schooled but I guess for 'socialization' reasons I ended up in the public school system. From your post I know you could imagine the tensions this created for me. My frustrated attempts at socialization competed fiercely with my philosophical background, and no doubt planted the seeds of a self-destructive backlash that emerged in later years (this is not a bid to blame anyone outside myself for how I chose to handle this, or to discourage anyone in any way. Just want to point out that the public school system may not be the right path for some children who may not have developed strong social adaptation skills, and on the other hand, it could be just what some might need after all).

I guess I'd hoped that due to the rising popularity of various alternative diets in the past 20 years, even if equally misinformed, the schools would routinely be prepared to allow for all sorts of dietary needs of their students. At least in my area, health awareness is high and I think schools have had no choice but to pay some attention (although definitely NOT when I was growing up). Too bad that's not your or your friend's experience.

I had no idea doctors were prescribing fluoride drops for breastfeeding infants. Again, not shocking, but highly disturbing to hear. My parents also stayed out of the radar of conventional docs. Luckily they knew how to keep us healthy, using food as medicine through the use of Macrobiotics. I philosophically differ from some of the practice now but it was a good foundation for understanding how food and health are intimately linked.




Re: travel vaccinations

Posted by R. [4746.2376] on November 13, 2005 at 13:25:10:

In Reply to: travel vaccinations posted by ANN [1003.516] on November 13, 2005 at 08:50:40:

Some people are against taking a baby to an area with a different climate.

Also, long flights are said to expose passengers to quite a lot of radiation.

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Re: Update on my battle with baby vaccines

Posted by ANN [1003.516] on November 13, 2005 at 17:52:34:

In Reply to: Re: Update on my battle with baby vaccines posted by ceres [4710.1837] on November 13, 2005 at 10:05:48:

I've dated a lot of highly intelligent guys- public school wasn't a positive socializing experience for any of them. I think the socializing influence of schools is highly overrated and, off those kids who do get 'socialized' by the interaction, some of that is negative socialization- drug use, drunk driving, sex to impress their friends and conform, rather than out of their own needs.
There is an organization for the more liberal wing of homeschooling- the John Holt/Growing without schooling/unschoolers based in Massachusetts, but with membership all over the country (Wiccans, Vegetarians,Buddists, and what have you). I read their magazine for a few years. Many of the parents allowed their junior high and HS aged kids to try public school. The teens wrote to the magazine themselves about their experiences, basically complaining that the people they met we very shallow and didn't converse about interesting topics.
Dealing with CPS can be intimidating. Once you have school aged children, you can join HSLDA (pre-paid legal for homeschooling) and their magazine advises never to let social workers into your home, keep them at the gate, call the lawyers at HSLDA to deal with them. When the police showed up at my door when my baby was 2 months old, I had never dealt with such a thing and was just stunned. I adopted a kind of- of course you can come in, we have nothing to hide approach. Subsequent legal advice taught me that that's wrong. But life is about learning.
I spent many years as a macrobiotic before getting married, then adopted a compromise vegan whole grain diet with my husband to raise our kids with.
Don't be afraid to have kids. Get involved with a homeschool group in your community and get to know the people and the kids- take strength from them and learn how they cope, so you have a better idea if it's something you want to do.There's lots more support out there now than when your parents comtemplated it.



An interesting article on vaccinations was just posted to the WAP site

Posted by Colin [1813.2239] on November 13, 2005 at 23:12:10:

In Reply to: Update on my battle with baby vaccines posted by Jennifer [4650.2291] on November 10, 2005 at 11:22:21:

You might want to take a look at it:

Vaccinations: Parentsí Informed Choice

Pretty interesting stuff with quite a few references in the article.



An interesting article on vaccinations was just posted to the WAP site Archive

Posted by Walt Stoll [93.1889] on November 14, 2005 at 07:59:29:

In Reply to: An interesting article on vaccinations was just posted to the WAP site posted by Colin [1813.2239] on November 13, 2005 at 23:12:10:

Thanks, Colin.

Walt

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Re: Update on my battle with baby vaccines

Posted by ceres [4710.1837] on November 14, 2005 at 08:37:23:

In Reply to: Re: Update on my battle with baby vaccines posted by ANN [1003.516] on November 13, 2005 at 17:52:34:

Thanks, Ann. I didn't know about the organization, but I live in that region of the country so it's good to know help is so close!

When I was in high school I met kids my age who had just entered the public school system for the first time. I didn't go to school with them so I don't know what their experience was like, but I always imagined it was not easy (they went to a very small rural school so it was likely either great or really tough).

I appreciate your encouragement to consider have kids anyway. My reasons for putting off this decision go beyond what I already described, but I haven't entirely ruled it out. I may one day choose to adopt as that's been a long-time dream, however issues with social services would most certainly come to the fore if I did so. No easy answers I guess.

Sorry to steer this so OT, hope Jennifer has found something of value in the responses!

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Re: Update on my battle with baby vaccines

Posted by blissy [4.1399] on November 14, 2005 at 20:39:40:

In Reply to: Update on my battle with baby vaccines posted by Jennifer [4650.2291] on November 10, 2005 at 11:22:21:

Hi Jennifer

I remembered that you posted about how your baby reacted badly to his/her triple antigen.

ANN had mentioned that the reason why some babies react more and others don't is because of vitamin c.

i was taking vitamin c (ester C to be correct) around the time my baby when he was 2 months old had his triple antigen. But he had NO bad reaction whatsoever. Not even a fever.

So I am thinking maybe it was due to the vitamin C I was taking. I had no idea, at the time, that it could make such a difference to vaccinations, but maybe that was the reason he had no untoward reactions.

don't know if you read ann's post, but it was really informative about nutrition's role in vaccinations for babies.



Re: Update on my battle with baby vaccines

Posted by ANN [1003.516] on November 15, 2005 at 07:24:48:

In Reply to: Re: Update on my battle with baby vaccines posted by blissy [4.1399] on November 14, 2005 at 20:39:40:

vitamin C was an example in one study- ANY nutrient that the kid is deficient in could be a problem. If the kid has undiagnosed celiac (gluten intolerance), for example, he will be deficient in MOST nutrients, and may not be able to utilize even the ones in a vitamin supplement (though supplementing would be worth a try, if one were forced to vaccine (by an unenlightened spouse, for example).
Full nutrition is the first step in ANY building of the immune system, and can help prevent being susceptible to whatever's going around.

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