Restless Legs archives

Magnesium, Restless Legs, and Hunter-Gatherers

Posted by VickiR on October 14, 1998 at 14:06:05:

I'm confused. If restless legs are caused, in part, by low intracellular magnesium, but magnesium supplements should not be taken by hunter-gatherer types (per recent comment by Bob McFerran in this forum)---what's a hunter-gatherer who suffers from restless legs to do? Does injected magnesium bypass the problems that oral magnesium might cause???

VickiR


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Re: Magnesium, Restless Legs, and Hunter-Gatherers

Posted by Robert McFerran on October 14, 1998 at 17:35:33:

In Reply to: Magnesium, Restless Legs, and Hunter-Gatherers posted by VickiR on October 14, 1998 at 14:06:05:

Vicki,

Now you have gone and done it -- the big magnesium controversy is about to get underway :)!!

I am a Hunter-gatherer didn't have restless legs yet had some other symptoms that seemed like they might be related to a magnesium deficiency. I knew that I had a ferrocious case of leaky gut syndrome and I started supplementing with oral magnesium gluconate which seemed to have little effect.
Subsequently I had a series of magnesium injections (via IV).

This is before I had the hindsight of all the metabolic research done by Drs. Watson and Wiley.

My position (for now) is that Hunter-gatherers should not routinely supplement with magnesium. At the same time Agriculturists should not routinely supplement with calcium and phosphorous. These supplements drive metabolic reactions for each group in the wrong direction. If you have an EXTREME metabolism this is the last thing that you want to do.

Of course supplemental magnesium for Agriculturists IS highly beneficial and might be the entire answer for restless legs. I have read a couple of books devoted ENTIRELY to the concept that magnesium is beneficial for everyone. Of course the authors didn't know that they were studying a population subset of Agriculturists.

What would I do if I knew that I was a H-G that was experiencing problems with restless legs? Probably make sure that I was eating a whole foods diet sans any food allergens and then supplement with small amounts (less than 100 mg.) of potassium and magnesium taken at the end of an evening meal. I would try and slip this in no more than once every 3 days and see what happens. Daily and certainly many times per day would be too much.

Bob

p.s. -- This rationale would be the same that I would follow if I were an Agriculturist that had a condition that required calcium/phosphorous supplementation.


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Re: Magnesium, Restless Legs, and Hunter-Gatherers

Posted by Walt Stoll on October 15, 1998 at 11:04:33:

In Reply to: Magnesium, Restless Legs, and Hunter-Gatherers posted by VickiR on October 14, 1998 at 14:06:05:

Dear VickiR,

Since I do not understand the reason(s) for avoiding magnesium supplements in the hunter-gatherer population, I cannot begin to answer your question. Perhaps Bob will help. I would think that IV magnesium would bypass this concern but look forward to hearing from Bob.

I DO know that skilled relaxation will eventually resolve this problem without the magnesium. It is just that if the magnesium is aggravating the problem that it will take a lot longer without the supplemental magnesium.

Walt



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Re: Magnesium, Restless Legs, and Hunter-Gatherers

Posted by Kyra on October 15, 1998 at 12:28:08:

In Reply to: Re: Magnesium, Restless Legs, and Hunter-Gatherers posted by Robert McFerran on October 14, 1998 at 17:35:33:


Dear Walt, Bob, et al,

Here I am on the BB when I should be earning a living or completing a paper. Procrastination wins this morning. A spanner in the works? It took me many months of whole foods diet and possible dietary adjustment pangs to learn that I'm an noncycling and extreme hunter-gatherer type (blood type A+ and absolutely normal right on the money blood pH), rather than the extreme agriculturalist that I'd originally thought. I thrive on the H-G regime. I also thrive on periodic intramuscular magnesium sulfate supplementation; at this point one 6cc injection every two or three weeks depending on stress levels. I've also had the restless leg nuisance, and in fact find its slight recurrence every now and then to be an indicator that I need another IM dose of mag sulfate. For what it's worth...

Namaste' Kyra


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Re: Magnesium, Restless Legs, and Hunter-Gatherers

Posted by Robert McFerran on October 15, 1998 at 12:47:13:

In Reply to: Re: Magnesium, Restless Legs, and Hunter-Gatherers posted by Walt Stoll on October 15, 1998 at 11:04:33:

Walt,

Everyone needs magnesium/potassium but it seems that Agriculturists might need more of it than their Hunter-gatherer counterparts. The converse is true with calcium/phosphorous -- Hunter-gatherers (with their animal intensive diets) seemed better adapted to higher levels of these minerals than Agriculturists.

Drs. Watson and Wiley found this phenomenon while observing the biochemical reactions of their different patient subsets to different mineral/vitamins/foods. It's interesting that they looked at this from a purely biochemical standpoint and never attempted to make the connection to the actual diets that would have been eaten by different anthropological groups.

As you know a leaky gut is also one which has problems absorbing nutrients. I delight when I read studies confirming all the mineral deficiencies of folks with rheumatoid arthritis. Readers should note that 100% OF PEOPLE WITH RHEUMATOID ARTHRITIS HAVE LEAKY GUT SYNDROME. Iron and zinc deficiencies are well documented yet the researchers never suggest why. Their simple answer is to supplement with these minerals -- which works in some cases but not in others.

I can see where IV magnesium would help BUT I believe that what is routinely given today would best suit Agriculturists and not Hunter-Gatherers. A large bolus of I.V. magnesium would cause a large metabolic shift that would inactivate or compromise several enzymatic reactions. A much smaller amount might be appropriate for H-G's.

This should also be a consideration for chelation. Even though most of the folks needing chelation for coronary and vascular problems are EXTREME Agriculturists there are some H-G's that receive chelation for other problems. While the EDTA may have the same benefit across all metabolic subsets I believe the other vitamins/minerals included do not.

Bob




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Re: Magnesium, Restless Legs, and Hunter-Gatherers

Posted by Robert McFerran on October 15, 1998 at 12:56:27:

In Reply to: Re: Magnesium, Restless Legs, and Hunter-Gatherers posted by Kyra on October 15, 1998 at 12:28:08:

Hi Kyra,

You call it procrastination -- I call it 'sluuming' :).

Thanks for the input. I've had the same injections and some chelation. Both made my hypoglycemia worse -- not to mention my other symptoms.

Of course you have a sort of relaxation response when you pump that magnesium in but then I would feel out of sorts for about 3 days until I would 'normalize'.

After one injection of the magnesium, synovitis and swelling with lots of free fluid almost immediately developed on one of my knees. Ultimately I had to get the fluid aspirated and cortisone injected to fix the problem. That was the last magnesium I.V. that I had.

It is interesting isn't it?

Bob


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Re: Magnesium, Restless Legs, and Hunter-Gatherers

Posted by VickiR on October 15, 1998 at 13:29:03:

In Reply to: Re: Magnesium, Restless Legs, and Hunter-Gatherers posted by Robert McFerran on October 15, 1998 at 12:56:27:

Thanks for all the comments, Bob. This gets more and more intriguing. What prompted my question in the first place was this: after he started doing relaxation, all my husband's symptoms EXCEPT the restless leg were showing improvement. In fact, he had been symptom-free for about a week EXCEPT for the restless leg. So I began giving him several hundred mg of magnesium malate per day. His old symptoms returned with a vengeance and didn't let up till he stopped taking the magnesium. Of course, it could have been a roundabout effect if the magnesium caused a recurrence of his hypoglycemia.

Incidentally, Walt, we had good success with the RLS one night using the following relaxation technique: he tensed and relaxed the muscles in his lower back several times, and then I placed my hand there and told him to imagine that my hand was a hot water bottle. For several minutes, I kept telling him how the hot water bottle was making his back feel really warm. His leg stopped shaking, and he slept soundly through the night. (Haven't tried it a second time so I can't say whether it was a fluke or not,)

Vicki



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Re: Magnesium, Restless Legs, and Hunter-Gatherers

Posted by Susan Mierswa on October 15, 1998 at 21:49:09:

In Reply to: Re: Magnesium, Restless Legs, and Hunter-Gatherers posted by Robert McFerran on October 15, 1998 at 12:47:13:


Bob,

I was curious about chelation for H-G types. Would there be a better method to rid the body of metals? I have too much aluminum.

Although I have not yet done your elim diet and do ot know for sure that I am H-G, eating a pound of sirloin alone totally satisfies my appetite. I must admit I am still somewhat embarrassed to say that, having been macrobiotic ( and bloated from all that grain ! ), where the combined energy of food is a highly studied art !

I can't wait for your book to come out.

Thanks for your input,
Susan


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Re: Magnesium, Restless Legs, and Hunter-Gatherers

Posted by Robert McFerran on October 15, 1998 at 22:22:46:

In Reply to: Re: Magnesium, Restless Legs, and Hunter-Gatherers posted by Susan Mierswa on October 15, 1998 at 21:49:09:

Susan,

If you have a metal toxicity problem the benefit of chelating those things out of your body would far exceed the detriment of getting too much magnesium during the IV's.

Chelationists have over the years fined tuned their formulas to give maximum benefit to their patients with vascular disease. As mentioned before, most of these folks will fall into the EXTREME Agriculturist subset. It doesn't surprise me at all that the fined tuned chelation mix contains a large shot of magnesium -- as it would assist the Agriculturist metabolism.

Bob


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Re: Magnesium, Restless Legs, and Hunter-Gatherers

Posted by Walt Stoll on October 16, 1998 at 13:11:12:

In Reply to: Re: Magnesium, Restless Legs, and Hunter-Gatherers posted by Robert McFerran on October 15, 1998 at 12:47:13:

Thanks, Bob.

Good info!

Walt




Re: Magnesium, Restless Legs, and Hunter-Gatherers

Posted by Walt Stoll on October 16, 1998 at 13:25:21:

In Reply to: Re: Magnesium, Restless Legs, and Hunter-Gatherers posted by VickiR on October 15, 1998 at 13:29:03:

Dear VickiR,

What you did with your husband is a combination of modified autogenics, suggestion, biofeedback and acupressure. Do what works.

ANYHOW, RLS takes a little longer than most other things to resolve if skilled relaxation is the only thing being done. It is almost impossible to resolve an individual episode with the techniqiue--it is the long term results that are so dramatic. I STILL would expect resolution within 6-12 months but probably little results in less than 3 months.

Walt


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Perhaps you are a natural-born Healer?!

Posted by Jim Marconnet on October 16, 1998 at 14:33:19:

In Reply to: Re: Magnesium, Restless Legs, and Hunter-Gatherers posted by VickiR on October 15, 1998 at 13:29:03:

> I placed my hand there and told him to imagine
> that my hand was a hot water bottle. For several
> minutes, I kept telling him how the hot water
> bottle was making his back feel really warm.

The following is MY personal opinion, based on reading and some observations, and some personal experimentation:

Had you done this without the visualization, I'd have said that you are likely a natural-born healer. All it takes is loving touch with one or both hands, and some accelerated healing will occur. Try it some time.

Why else do kids come in hurt and ask to be held? They know they will feel better fast. And taking one's attention away from a pain will allow the body to address healing that area. Conversely, if attention is closely paid to a particular pain, it will heal less quickly as a result.

Walt, can you please either confirm or deny my personal observations on this?

RocketHealer Jim++


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Re: Magnesium, Restless Legs, and Hunter-Gatherers

Posted by Susan Mierswa on October 16, 1998 at 21:42:43:

In Reply to: Re: Magnesium, Restless Legs, and Hunter-Gatherers posted by Robert McFerran on October 15, 1998 at 22:22:46:

Bob,

Thanks for sharing your knowledge. Who is the other man besides Dr. Weston Price who did all this research on metabolic types and the name of his book? Are these books ( Nutrition and Physical Degeneration ) easy to find at the local library?

Thanks,
Susan



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Re: Perhaps you are a natural-born Healer?!

Posted by Walt Stoll on October 17, 1998 at 08:44:04:

In Reply to: Perhaps you are a natural-born Healer?! posted by Jim Marconnet on October 16, 1998 at 14:33:19:

Right on, RocketHealer Jim, right on!

For the past 40 years, world wide research has combined eastern mysticism with western technology to explain how ANYONE can develop & use this God Given Ability.

It seems to me that the refusal of a Gift From GOD is the worst sin of all. We ALL tend to deny our power.

Namaste` Walt




Re: Magnesium, Restless Legs, and Hunter-Gatherers

Posted by Robert McFerran on October 17, 1998 at 12:59:47:

In Reply to: Re: Magnesium, Restless Legs, and Hunter-Gatherers posted by Susan Mierswa on October 16, 1998 at 21:42:43:

Susan,

The Watson book should be available at a college library. The other book is BioBalance by Dr. Rudolph Wiley.

They are both intriguing.

Bob



Re: Magnesium, Restless Legs, and Hunter-Gatherers

Posted by VickiR on October 19, 1998 at 15:00:27:

In Reply to: Re: Magnesium, Restless Legs, and Hunter-Gatherers posted by Walt Stoll on October 16, 1998 at 13:25:21:

Walt,
I have to ask---does Bill practice any form of skilled relaxation?
Vicki



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Re: Magnesium, Restless Legs, and Hunter-Gatherers

Posted by Wzlt Stoll on October 20, 1998 at 10:49:25:

In Reply to: Re: Magnesium, Restless Legs, and Hunter-Gatherers posted by VickiR on October 19, 1998 at 15:00:27:

Dear VickiR,

You can ask HIM that right here on this BB. Also, I think he has listed his email address here too.

I know that he is a black belt in Tai Quan Do and continues his training. THAT is a form of skilled relaxation.

Thanks for asking.

Walt




Re: Magnesium, Restless Legs, and Hunter-Gatherers

Posted by Bill on October 20, 1998 at 12:19:12:

In Reply to: Re: Magnesium, Restless Legs, and Hunter-Gatherers posted by VickiR on October 19, 1998 at 15:00:27:

Hi Vicki,

You asked: does Bill practice any form of skilled relaxation? Did you mean me?

I have been working for the past month to establish a habit of doing it at least 20 min 2x a day, without falling asleep. For the past week I've averaged 1x per day, which is an improvement over the previous week. I've been lying on the sofa listening to Deep Meditation from the brainsync website. I have no doubt that I'm reaching the proper state, but I know I'm not maintaining it for 20 min since I often fall asleep. I think this is the week I will start holding the spoon to keep from slipping into delta.

I am not doing it to resolve any chronic conditions; just as a preventative and so I can learn to recall the alpha or theta state quickly when I am not lying on the sofa.

I would not say that TaeKwonDo qualifies as skilled relaxation, though it does require learning to relax muscles as much as possible while moving around quite a bit.

I don't have "restless leg syndrome" at night. I tend to move my legs constantly when I am engrossed in computer activity, or playing a card game or board game. I can consciously stop them from moving with no problem.

Bill


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Re: Magnesium, Restless Legs, and Hunter-Gatherers

Posted by VickiR on October 20, 1998 at 13:12:45:

In Reply to: Re: Magnesium, Restless Legs, and Hunter-Gatherers posted by Bill on October 20, 1998 at 12:19:12:

Hi, Bill

Yes, I did mean you. I remembered your story about the woman putting her hand on your leg while you were playing cards. Didn't realize you don't have RLS in the way people do who MUST move their legs (and usually at night).

Thanks for sharing your relaxation experiences. Sounds similar to what we're going through here, trying to make time for twice a day (and only succeeding on weekends). We sit in recliners so we can get full body support without actually lying down (I probably WOULD fall asleep if I were to lie down). Yesterday I felt little bursts of electricity shooting across my forehead a couple of times. It's cool----I LIKE IT!

Vicki




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