In Reply to: L5-S1 spinal fusion posted by Kari Cross on October 14, 1997 at 15:18:23:
The trick is to get two or more opinions from "spine specialists" , not ordinary orthopaedic surgeons. If I needed brain surgery, I wouldn't go to a g.p. Don't go to an amateur. I recently had a micro-lumbar diskectomy between l3 and l4. I'm fine now with no pain. I also have a herniated disk at l5-s1. The "spine specialist" who operated on me said I may need fusion in about ten years. Look into taking NAPRELAN as an anti-inflamitory. It works wonders.
In Reply to: Re: Spinal Fusion, Vicodin and CMO posted by Walt Stoll on September 08, 1997 at 10:42:34:
I just started taking vicodin Christmas Eve for a serious back injury - two herniated discs and one that is prolapsed and almost entirely outside the spine. I don't like it, but it stops the pain for the most part. But you keep talking about a pain treatment center and I was wondering first, is there any way to fix my prolapsed disc without surgery, and second, how would I find such a center in my area? Also, do HMOs usually cover them?
In Reply to: Re: cervical disc fusion posted by Lily on October 05, 1997 at 23:58:00:
I had anterior cervical fusion surgery at the C6-7 ....Before I did I was getting weaker bt the day, my strenght was gone, numbness in my hands and chest as well as right leg....
Had to get it done it was rapidly degenerating....
Noticed first was numbness in hands and then spread rapidly, was barely able to walk by x-mas when I had my MRI and x-ray done.. Neurologist explained to me that my c6-7 was making a dangerous compression on my spinal cord....Surgery was only option. May already have irreversable nerve damage. - He recommended a surgeon however I knew one, got in to see him on 1-7-98, he examined me looked at my films and came back into the room with three other surgeons....They wanted to admit me right then and there....(scared the hell out of me)...walked out and went home, spoke to my wife about it and decided to go forward with it.....They operated the next day. I am at home, No pain now- very little numbness in hands and am walking around strong. Dr.'s name was Paul Sheehan operates out of Christian North East Hospital and a few others. Did surgery on thursday and was home friday.
I will see how things progress and keep anyone posted if they ask. or have any questions about the procedure please e-mail me
In Reply to: Re: cervical disc fusion posted by Les on October 08, 1997 at 17:48:01:
I was in a automobile accident and suffered whiplash about 2 year ago. After about 8 month of treatment from the chiropractor I was still unable to move my neck and suffered alot of pain and numbness. It was suggested that I have surgery to repair c5/6 & c6/7. I had the sugery and had a good recovery but I am still in alot of pain. I have had physical therapy, myotherapy and still visit the chiropractor. All of this is not helping. I am having so much muscular pain in the the should area that it is hard for me to function at times. I have headaches and all kinds of side effects. I am so tired at this point can you give me some suggestion or will I just have to deal with this pain. I will take medication when the pain gets to bad but most of the time I am given medication that makes me unable to function . Please give me some suggestions.
In Reply to: Re: L5-S1 spinal fusion posted by Eric S. Albert on January 05, 1998 at 14:55:47:
I had a L5-S1 discectomy in April 97. Initially felt better but slowly deteriorated and now am worse than before surgery
with constant pain and leg numbness. The Neurosurgeon who did surgery says 50/50 chance for success in fusion. A spine specialist says 80/20 but there's still that 20%. I am trying to get an appointment at a teaching hospital with a spine specialist. Hopefully, they will be up on the latest research and techniques. Any spinal fusion is major surgery and the prospect of that, plus a long recovery and then
ending up worse than before must carry weight in a decision.
In Reply to: Re: cervical disc fusion posted by linda on January 12, 1998 at 12:53:43:
I had noticed some numbness in both hands last november. Didn't think much about it at the time. Two weeks later it had spread into my legs and I was finding it difficult to walk. Went to see my regular doctor and he sent me to a neurologist... He wanted a MRI and a Nerve Conduction Study done on my hands and legs. I finally got all that completed on the 23rd of december. Doctor called me the day after christmas and wanted me to come in the following monday the 29th. I went in and he dropped a bomb on me, told me that I had a very large ruptured disc at the C6-7 level and was making a significant compression on my spinal cord. He said I needed surgery to fix it and if I didn't I would eventualy be paralyzed. He recommended a neurosurgeon, I couldn't get in to him until 1-28-98. I talked to friend of mine who knew a surgeon and got me in to see him on January 7. He looked at my films and examined me, came back in the room with three other surgeons and wanted to operate that day. Told me that the disc was in a very dangerous spot and a little accident could paralyze me. Needless to say he scared the hell out me. I went home anyway and spoke to my wife about it. I called the surgeon back later that afternoon and did the surgery the next day. He called it a Level 1 Anterior Cervical Fusion. I am at home now and wandering about when I can return to work and how long will it take for the bone plug to fuse. I have an appointment with my doctor in two weeks and I now have several questions for him..........I am walking without any trouble now and only a little bit of numbness in my hands......So far so good, I think
Frank
Hello,
I had a l-4 l-5 laminectomy in 1982 and have what is called a recurrent disc?
I have been taking tylenol 3 for 16 years and now am going to have an MRI this week to see if the situation has gotten worse. I take 3 tylenol 3 a day usually at one time and it relieves the pain long enough to relax and get to sleep.I also take aspirin advil aleve you name it and it does nothing to relieve the pain. As you probably guess my stomach is a mess I take Prolisic and propulcid for my stomach. What if anything do you suggest I do for the pain? The Dr. has said if the medicine relieves the pain that I NOT have the fussion until it is unbearable. Any help you can advise is greatly appreciated.
In Reply to: chronic pain posted by John Jones on January 13, 1998 at 19:24:39:
You're not a car! Stop getting patched up and start attacking your problem at the source. Relaxation techniques, and chiropractic will do more for you in the now, and the later. Rucurrent disc means surgery after surgery until they take the whole thing out. You need the disc! God put it there for a reason. The goal is to make things function as they should.
"Chiropractic treatment was more effective than hospital outpatient
management, mainly for patients with chronic or severe
back pain."
British Medical Journal, 1990.
British Medical Research Council Study.
"...spinal manipulation applied by chiropractors is shown to be more
effective than alternative treatments for low-back
pain."
The Manga Report, 1993.
"...injured workers ... diagnosed with low-back pain returned to work
much sooner when treated by chiropractors than by
physicians."
The Manga Report, 1993.
"Two and three years after patients with back pain were treated by
chiropractors, they experienced far less pain than
those who were treated by medical doctors."
British Medical Journal, 1990.
"Low Back Pain of Mechanical Origin: Randomized Comparison of
Chiropractic and Hospital Outpatient Treatment."
"...one of the unexpected findings ...looks as though the treatment
that the chiropractors give does something that results in
a very long-term benefit."
T. W. Meade, M.D., CBC Radio.
The Av-Med Study
This study included 80 patients, each of whom was previously treated by a
medical doctor and subsequently referred to the
Silverman Chiropractic Center. Of these 80 patients, 21 % had been diagnosed
with disc problems, 5% received emergency
room treatment and 12% had been diagnosed as requiring surgery.
Following chiropractic treatment, no surgery was required. 86% needed
no further treatment at all. And the projected
savings on the patient study group was approximately $250,000.
The Av-Med Study, 1993.
Only about 15 percent of all medical interventions are supported by solid scientific evidence, according to David M.
Edy, M.D., Ph.D., professor of health policy and management at Duke University, North Carolina.
In contrast, the breadth of existing research dedicated to chiropractic was noted by Paul G. Shekelle, M.D., MPH, of
the RAND Corporation, on ABC's 20/20 when he said,"There are considerably more randomized controlled trials
which show benefit of this (chiropractic) than there are for many, many other things which physicians and neurosurgeons
do all the time."
Nine of ten chiropractic users felt their treatment was effective.
The Gallup Organization, 1991.
Chiropractic patients were three times more satisfied with their care than patients of family practice physicians."
Western Journal of Medicine, 1989.
The mean compensation costs paid out by the Utah Workers' Compensation Board for patients treated by doctors of
chiropractic was only 1O% of that paid out for patients treat by other physicians. (Journal of Occupational Medicine,
1991.)
Due to an auto accident nearly 2 years ago, I have had the above named surgey performed twice. The first fusion did not take and my own bone was used. Now i'm being told that the second fusion did not fully take and possibly a screw is loose and plate has shifted. What, if any, are the alternatives to a third (unwanted) surgery? I'm very limited now due to the severity of the injury and do not want to have anymore limitations or restrictions. I am a 26 yr. old mother of 2 small children whose lost alot of time with them due to this. Any info. pertaining to this would be greatly appreciated.
In Reply to: anterior cervical discectomy & fusion c5-c7 posted by jamie on January 14, 1998 at 13:51:45:
I would suggest getting examinations and opinions from another MD, an Osteopath (D.O.), and a Chiropractor (D.C.)
This is too intricate to advise by correspondence. Getting multiple opinions from different factions of the health care community may better serve you.
In Reply to: Re: Spinal Fusion, Vicodin and CMO posted by Becky Miller on January 11, 1998 at 11:24:59:
Dear Becky,
I had several prolapsed discs & eliminated them within 6 months by following the precepts of the only P&STC then available (Dr Shealey, MD, PhD--the founder of the first one in the world and STILL the one everyone is trying to emulate). The day will soon come when no one is allowed to do surgery without the patient being FIRST evaluated by a competent P&STC.
Right now, the only one I would trust MY body to is the original--now located in Springfield, MO. You could call them at (417) 865-5940 and, if they knew of any closer to you that WERE competent, they would be sure to tell you. The last I heard there was a year waiting period for an appointment there so they are not interested in having you come there unless there is no one close to you who is competent.
An effective P&STC takes so much time & commitment that, when people interested in having their own realize that, they frequently try to cut corners. THAT DOESN'T WORK! I think that is why there are so many out there who are not very effective. That is a shame because when someone doesn't get results they tend to blame the concept rather than realize they went to one that did NOT follow the concept.
My problems have been gone for more than 20 years. If they were going to return they would have certainly done so by now! I was on high doses of medications, wore a brace everywhere I went & was STILL in continuous pain. I was told that repeated surgery was my only option since I had so many prolapsed at the same time.
Let us know how you do. If you have more questions write again.
Walt
In Reply to: Re: cervical disc fusion posted by linda on January 12, 1998 at 12:53:43:
Dear Linda,
You are another one who desperately needs to be seen by a competent Pain & Stress Treatment Center before going further with surgery. Use the search feature for this BB & read everything you can find about your condition (or any disc problem for that matter). THEN, if you have more questions, write again.
Walt
In Reply to: Re: L5-S1 spinal fusion posted by Mike Furtado on January 12, 1998 at 15:33:17:
Dear Mike,
You are going to get the same old stuff from your "major teaching hospital" if you go there. Where do you think the guys who already have given you advice got THEIR training?
You KNOW that even the best insurance coverage will leave you with something to pay. Why not take THAT money & do something about the causes. I know you have (or soon will have) a copy of my book. That would be a good place to start. THEN find Dr Shealy's number in the back & see if you can find a COMPETENT pain & stress treartment center in your area to see in consultation.
THEN, if you still have questions, write again.
Walt
In Reply to: L5-S1 spinal fusion posted by Kari Cross on October 14, 1997 at 15:18:23:
I had a spinal fusion 9-2-97 and I have done nothing but go
down hill. Some days I can't walk without terrible pain
preventing me from even leaving my home. I'm only 26 years
old and this is my 2nd back surgery. I need support!
I have been off work for 2 1/2 years and haven't even been
able to use my college degree. Please someone talk back
to me I feel like I'm going crazy!!!!!!!
In Reply to: Re: L5-S1 spinal fusion posted by Linda Myers on November 30, 1997 at 01:21:03:
Dear Linda,
The ONLY thing that causes scoliosis is chronic "bracing". We have been discussing that, here on the BB, for years.
The most common cause of chronic disc problems is also "bracing". Unless she deals with that, the causes will still be there no matter how many surgeries she has. You can be sure that this structural susceptibility, that she was born with, will continue the rest of her life. She is going to make a lot of physicians rich unless you & she work on doing something about the "bracing".
Walt
In Reply to: Re: L5-S1 spinal fusion posted by Tammy Johnnie on November 07, 1997 at 08:54:50:
I am writing this letter for my mother. Three years ago,
my mother had a spinal fusion performed, and now things are
what one might say awful. She is in constant pain and all the (so-called) physicians have no suggestions to offer.
She has had every kind of pain treatment possible, and nothing seems to help. Please, don't recommend a pain center, because I am feed up with those. She has already been to three. Before the surgery, she could at least get around, but now for very long distances a wheelchair is required. Please Help!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
In Reply to: Re: L5-S1 spinal fusion posted by Walt Stoll on December 30, 1997 at 13:19:55:
I have written you twice, first time you say how far geographically am i willing to go and second time you tell me to look and read the bb, what the hell is the bb i have no idea, and find that you have helped me in know way, and that you write this response to alot of your people who really count on your opion. thanks for nothing.
In Reply to: Re: L5-S1 spinal fusion posted by kari cross on January 19, 1998 at 00:34:09:
Kari,
The bulletin board is the place where people post their questions. Do not get too frustrated at folks using abbreviations, it happens a lot on the Net. I do not know, for instance, what L5-S1 means, but I know it is about the spine. The abbreviations you will run into on the board will be strange at first, but if you stick with it, you will get them.
Dr. Stoll spends sometimes four hours a day answering questions from people all around the world, and he does it for free. He has answered questions concerning your problem many times before, and would probably like you to explore what he has said before so your questions will not be repeats.
He asked you to think about how far you would be willing to travel, because competent centers dealing with pain such as yours might be some distance away. Do you have the resources or commitment to do this?
The BB is the bulletin board, and it can be found by clicking on the link at the top of the screen where it says "Ask Dr. Stoll." If you let it download completely (several minutes) before you click on anything, it will go back and reveal what people have asked for the last several months. There are many posts and answers from Dr. Stoll about your very problem. I have read them myself.
Also, you can use the "search function" near the top of the bulletin board and enter "spinal fusion" or some other term that has to do with your problem, and it may spit out all kinds of helpful information.
Reading these stories, I can only have compassion for your plight. Unfortunately, your frustration and stress only makes it worse. I know from reading the board that stress reduction is a major part of the healing process.
God bless you,
Jim
In Reply to: Re: L5-S1 spinal fusion posted by GENIE A. CONLAND on January 18, 1998 at 20:48:26:
Dear Genie,
Your experience with P&STCs is the very reason why I have repeatedly said that there is only one in this country that I would go to myself. I have listed the phone number of that one many times. I have repeatedly said WHY most P&STCs are worse than worthless.
ALSO, sometimes this is not the fault of the center but of the patient. P&STCs do not solve these pain problems! They teach the patient how to do it & keep doing it at home. If the patient does not learn, or practice what they were taught at home, of course nothing will happen.
Since I do not know your mother, you would be a lot more likely to know whether she is looking for a cure imposed from the outside or is a agressive participant.
I would be interested in your input.
Walt
I work for a Chiropractor and requested lumbar x-rays on January 2, 1998. Having felt like I walk crooked when I arise from my night's sleep, and occasional sciatic nerve pain, I would not have guessed that my L-5 is 75% slipped off from the sacrum(shown on these x-rays). My back surgery two and a half years ago is freshly imprinted in my mind, I am not ready to undergo the knife again so soon. I am overweight and know that is my number one focus. Could you give me some other suggestions as to what to do and where to focus. I am frightened.
In Reply to: Re: Spinal Fusion, Vicodin and CMO posted by Walt Stoll on December 30, 1997 at 09:16:39:
I had spinal fusion on 10/30/97. they cut me front and back and fused L4 and L5 they call it a 360 degree spinal fusion. I take vicondine and soma thre to four times daily. I try to cut down from the drugs like the doctor asked me too. I find some days impossible. I start physical Theripy and hope to find excercise for relief. But at this time I can see no way off the drugs as long as there is constant pain. I have six screws in my back and still a young person. I wonder if any of you are back to work yet? I work in an office where I sit all day and that even hurts to do. I will start back to work on 2/2/98 for fours hours a day. I am not ready to go back but I know I have to try.
i have been on pain meds for 9 months and just had an anteior fusion with titanium cages i had all the narocotic
class of drugs percoset,vicodin,darvon,codine 3,4 trust me
get off them as quick as possible longterm high usage causes
major withdrawl and not just phisical but emotional withdrawl as well i have been active all my life in sports im 33 6` 225pounds vary muscular i could berrly tolarate the physical withdrawl but emoionaly its devistaing
i needed help i would of suffered with the pain had i know how tough it would to defeat the narcotics i was put on ultram which is a non narcotic medication and it works better than vicodin with no side affects in my case and no
withdrawl ask your doctor as soon as possible about ultram
if you get on it give it a while it doesnt work imidately like narcotics it takes a while to start working trust me get off of hydrocodone and try ultram you will thank me alot
let me know what happens
In Reply to: L-5 slipping off sacrum after fusion L-3 - L-5, 2 1/2 years ago. posted by Patricia Worth on January 20, 1998 at 22:58:49:
Sounds like the fusion wasn't much of a fusion at all. With a Grade III sponlylolysthesis, as you have described, the only non surgical treatment that I have seen be effective is an adjustment technique called an "anterior knee chest" (not to be confused with the regular knee chest table or gonstead technique). It consits of lying the patient supine(on the back) on a drop table. Flexing the knees and legs up. The Dr puts the heels of both hands over the lower abdomen(where L5 would be) and gives a gentle thrust. With the drop mechanism doing most of the work.
I have seen wonderful results with this and it may be just the thing for you. If your chiropractor is not familiar with this move then feel free to have him give me a call. I have emailed you my number and can be reached today or tomorrow until 6pm EST.
Good luck and let us know how things go.
In Reply to: Re: L5-S1 spinal fusion posted by kari cross on January 19, 1998 at 00:34:09:
Dear Kari,
I do not think I should be held responsible for your unfamiliarity with websites in general. I am just learning my way around so I can understand your frustration. However, it is MY responsibility to learn my way around as it is yours.
BB stand for Bulletin Board. You can get to it by many search engines on the internet OR you can go to my website home page at HTTP://BCN.NET/~STOLL. If you are reading this, you are already on the BB. You couldn't have sent your angry note, to which I am responding, without BEING on the BB. The search feature is plainly marked for you to use. All you have to do is type in whatever subject you want to read about.
NO ONE is going to spoon feed you the information you need. That never works anyhow. YOU are going to have to put in a lot of effort.
You need an expert Pain & Stress Treatment Center (P&STC) and there is only one in the country that I would go to personally. That is why I asked how far you were willing to go geographically. I sent you to the BB search service for this BB so you could learn a lot for no cost. I have written this information out so many times I am not going to do it again.
I get an average of 60 requests daily, 7 days a week, & can barely keep up. You are the one suffering. You are going to have to be the person who looks it up. The information is there for you if you want it. Looking it up is going to be a LOT less effort than you are going to have to learn to do to resolve this.
Walt
In Reply to: Cervical Disc Fusion posted by Lee McLemore on December 08, 1997 at 13:08:46:
Dear Lee,
Your story is EXACTLY why I have been saying what I have about problems like this! Your surgery was "successful" ONLY in that it temporarily relieved your symptoms (7 years). It did NOTHING about your causes--
that is why you are going through it again!
More surgery will do the same. How many times do you want to go through this? Your bodymind is trying its best to send you a message. The longer you can ignore it, the louder it will have to shout.
Since statistics show that surgery results are 1/3 get better (your last experience), 1/3 get worse & 1/3 stay the same, what do you think your chances are THIS time.
If this were MY problem, I would list surgery as a last resort & see a good P&STC (Use the search feature for this BB & read everything you can about problems like yours.)
If you need more information after doing that, I would recommend your reading a copy of my book (link below) since it not only covers your causes but gives you the resources to find the help you need.
As you get well, please share your esperiences with the BB. There are a lot of others out there struggling like you are without sufficient information. Your testimonial might just encourage some one else to get well too.
Walt
In Reply to: L-5 slipping off sacrum after fusion L-3 - L-5, 2 1/2 years ago. posted by Patricia Worth on January 20, 1998 at 22:58:49:
Dear Patricia,
Use the search feature provided with this BB & read everything you can find that relates to your problem. Your answers are there.
THEN, if you still have questions, write again.
Walt
I had surgery in 1993, cervical disk fusion (3) levels, 3rd to the 4th, 4th to the 5th, and 5th to the 6th. I have only been without pain for about the first year. I have severe pain in my neck at times that feels like a pinched nerve. Severe pain in the shoulders. I have had 6 different pain treatments done at a Pain Center and nothing worked. About a year ago I started having muscle spasms in my left arm. My arm can just be laying on something and the muscle spasms start. I can sit and watch the muscles do it. I had a nerve study done for something else and the doctor kept telling me to relax and told him I wasn't doing anything but the machine clearly shown muscle spasms. A doctor I am seeing for arthritis put me on a muscle relaxer. This helps for a while but eventually they start again. Why is this happening and what kind of doctor do I need to go to, if any?
I wish I had never had the surgery although the neurosurgeon who did the surgery said if I didn't I would have severe nerve damage.
In Reply to: cervical neck fusion posted by Belinda Yeager on January 22, 1998 at 19:49:26:
I am not sure what to tell you. An examination by a chiropractor should indicate whether or not their treatment would help. Sometimes it is just too late.
I am so sorry for your situation. I wish you hadn't had the surgery either. I disagree that you would have had severe nerve damage without it. Of course I am judging this based on people I have seen and not your case specifically. Maybe it was that advanced.
Seems to me like you have nerve damage with it.
Dr. Stoll will have a bit more to say.
Massage and relaxation techniques are in order regardless of what the chiropractor has to say.
Best of luck to you.
In Reply to: Re: cervical disc fusion posted by Shirlee Maulden-Hill on December 18, 1997 at 15:35:31:
Saw Dr. at Pain Clinic he gave me shots in my neck, ordered PT and a tens unit. My head feels to heavy for my neck to hold it up and the right side of my neck and shoulder burns all the time. the headaches are getting worse, they start at the back of my head and radiate up.IS this something that will go away? Why didnt the surgery fix the problem ? And now I have another porblem Dysphagia
Will this go away??What do I have to look forward to?? more pain? more surgery?
thanks for replying
Shirlee
In Reply to: Re: Spinal Fusion, Vicodin and CMO posted by l.s. on January 21, 1998 at 01:54:19:
Dear 1.s.,
Thanks for your note. I couldn't have put it better myself.
I would suggest, however, that you learn about the long term effectiveness of practicing an effective skilled relaxation technique 20 minutes twice a day. The kind of problems you mentioned ALWAYS are caused by severe total body bracing. Unless you deal with that, your problems will continue to haunt you for the rest of your days.
Walt
In Reply to: Re: Spinal Fusion, Vicodin and CMO posted by Walt Stoll on January 15, 1998 at 11:08:43:
In Reply to: Re: cervical neck fusion posted by David Ferguson, D.C on January 22, 1998 at 23:43:52:
Dear Doc Dave,
As usual, your wisdom is most welcome.
I would mention the following mainly to emphasize what you said:
Dear Belinda,
1. Pain & stress Treatment Centers (P&STCs) do not only give "treatments" if they are competent centers. They are educational centers. YOU are the one who is responsible for doing what you learned. The AMA monopoly has brainwashed the public (for 100 years) to believe that we can resolve your problems if you will just pay us enough. Unfortunately, that sets you up to look at anything recommended as though it can be done TO you and not BY you.
2. Learning an effective skilled relaxation technique, and practicing it at least twice a day forever, is the only thing that will resolve this over the long run. Did they not teach you that at the P&STC?
3. A deep, total-body, therapeutic massage, 3 times a week for 2 weeks would at least prove to you that both Doc Dave & I know of what we speak. Even though this relief of your symptoms would only last a few weeks, It would be dramatic. Rolfing (the usual 10 sessions) would last you a year or so. NEITHER the massages or the Rolfing would be permanent. ONLY the skilled relaxation would do that.
4. You would benefit from having a much deeper understand of this whole process so you would know better who to believe. So far, you have trusted others to do your thinking for you. This is not your fault. it is what the AMA wants you to do. However, you have finally come up against a place where this WILL NOT WORK. Toward this end, I would recommend a copy of my new book (link below) and THEN reading a copy of Dr Pelletier's classic: "Mind as Healer, Mind as Slayer".
THEN, if you still have questions, write again here on the BB.
Walt
In Reply to: Re: cervical disc fusion posted by Shirlee Maulden-Hill on January 23, 1998 at 20:22:07:
Dear Shirley,
I hate to tell you this but, until you become an expert in WHY you have these problems, you are just at the beginning of a very sorry future with these kinds of problems. You will just deal with one & another one will "pop" up. This is WHY your surgery "didn't work".
Use the search feature for this BB & read everything you can find about conditions like yours. The answers you need are there. THEN, if you still have questions, write again.
Walt
In Reply to: Re: L5-S1 spinal fusion posted by Walt Stoll on January 18, 1998 at 13:25:28:
I would like to hear from anyone with the same procedure
on spinal fusion. We can share the feelings and the
comparisons to this surgery. You see i had the same
procedure done in December of 1997 and I still have mixed
feelings about this surgery. I hope we can chat more
and help each other on this expierence and most of all
coping with spinal fusion.
Sincerely,
Donna Juba
In Reply to: Re: L5-S1 spinal fusion posted by Walt Stoll on January 21, 1998 at 14:12:11:
Thankyou Jim and Dr. Stoll, I am glad you do understand my frustration. I can be excuse the word (a real bitch) at times. I recently had a disc-o-gram done, because all other tests weren't showing enough for them. Well this exam showed all, and was very informitive to my surgeon. I am now having a spinal fusion at that level, and they said the disc disease was very very bad, and some other things that I don't understand, but anyways this surgeon is very cautious on doing surgery and had to put me through alot before he made his decision, so I am pleased and praying for good results. Thankyou for bearing with me through this awful time in pain that I am having. Take care Kari Cross
In Reply to: Re: L5-S1 spinal fusion posted by Walt Stoll on January 21, 1998 at 13:58:01:
Thanks Walt, if you haven't read the other note I posted I apoligise for my hostility. I am so frustrated and in pain that sometimes I cry out for Dr. Kavorkein. I have finally gotten to the bottom of this problem and now my doctors inform me after all this time that I am not crazy and that it is really bad. My surgery is scheduled for Feb. 5, 1998. And actually I have to say that I am very excited. I have been hospitalized in the last two weeks for 5 days on Morphin just to get the pain under control. I knew it was bad, but their using cadaver bones in my back because of the longer recovery if they use mine and they need alot of bone, and this surgeon says he won't put any metal BAK Cage or whatever it is called in my back because of my age and that enough time has not gone by to know the damage it may or may not do in the future. Again, I am so sorry for my angry-ness that I used towards you. What you are doing is great. I was just at my wits end and wanted answers yesterday. Take care. Kari Cross
I am going to have a three level spinal fusion in my neck in two weeks. Currenetly three discs are herniated and pressing an my spinal cord. They are also constricting the flow of spinal fluid in this area. My doctors concern is that without this surgery, my spinal cord is vulnerable to worse injury that could leave me with out use of my arms and legs. They will go in through my neck, and they I will be in a halo brace for at least three months. I am extremely concerned about the scars that will be left on my forehead from this type of brace. I am looking for an alternative brace that just drills into my head, under my hair, and not my forehead. Does anyone make one? Can someone make one for me? Please let me know ASAP thank you Robin
In Reply to: Re: cervical disc fusion posted by Frank on January 12, 1998 at 03:30:49:
Please inform me about the surgical procedure. I have had
10 blocks with little improvement;surgery is next. Same
c-6-7 as yours.
I had a bout with Cervical Disc Disease approximately 2 yrs. ago. I was treated with anti inflammatories and "at home" traction. The condition went away in approximately 4-6 weeks. I am now suffering from a recurrence of the problem. It began in late Nov '97, escalated throughout the month of December and early January, but has now improved markedly over the last 2 weeks. I have once again been treating this with anti-inflammatories and traction (18 lbs / 2-3 times daily / 20 minutes each time). My surgeon suggested, back in December, that if it did not improve by early January (which it hadn't yet), that I have surgery to remove the disc and fuse the vertebrae. My questions are: Since I have finally begun to improve with conservative therapy, should I continue to give the conservative therapy a chance and forego surgery for now? Since this is "degenerative disc disease," am I just prolonging the inevitable by foregoing surgery at this time? Will my discs continue to worsen and do I run the risk of damaging my neck further by putting off the surgery? What are the negatives related to this type of surgery? I have heard that the fusion of C6 and C7 might increase the pressure on C5 and T1 causing an inevitable deterioration of these discs. (???) Thank you for your consideration of these questions.
In Reply to: Cervical Disc Disease posted by Bob Ogburn on January 27, 1998 at 22:36:48:
"Since I have finally begun to improve with conservative
therapy, should I continue to give the conservative therapy a chance and forego surgery for now?"
*YES, and you should run, not walk, to a good chiropractor in your area.
"Since this is "degenerative disc disease," am I just prolonging the inevitable by foregoing surgery at this time?"
*Discs degenerate because of abnormal spinal biomechanics. The only people trained to correct these misalignments are chiropractors. Degenerative disc disease is not a disease like we normally think. It's a degeration due to a cause. The key is to eliminate that cause.
"Will my discs continue to worsen and do I run the risk of damaging my neck further by putting off the surgery?"
*Obviously, without removing the cause the effect will continue. Surgery MAY remove the cause without actually correcting it.
"What are the negatives related to this type of surgery?"
*There are inherent risks with every surgery but cervical disc surgeries have an added danger since they are working so close to the spinal cord. One danger they fail to mention is that a high percentage do not find relief and those that do usually have their pain return within a few years because of the answer to your next qestion.
I have heard that the fusion of C6 and C7 might increase the pressure on C5 and T1 causing an inevitable deterioration of these discs. (???)
*Highly likely since the levels above and below are not having to work twice as hard to compensate for the lack of joint mobility at the surgical level.
There are times when surgery is inevitable and necessary. The only problem is you have to depend on the guy who is going to make the money off of it to tell you when. How much sense does that make?
Chiropractic and relaxation techniques are the answer for 90%+ with this problem.
Here is some additional info.
Manipulation Effective for Neck Pain and Safer than NSAIDS
OBJECTIVE: We reviewed the literature to evaluate the risk of serious injury or death resulting from cervical manipulation and to assess the evidence that
cervical manipulation is an effective treatment for mechanical neck pain. We also reviewed the
literature to assess the risks and effectiveness of nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs (NSAIDs)such as asprin, ibuprophin, acetometaphin, which are often used as the "conventional" first-line treatment for similar
musculoskeletal conditions.
DATA SOURCES: A series of Medicine literature searches were performed, and materials were reviewed from 1966-1994. Key words included: Chiropractic or Orthopedic Manipulation; Non-Steroidal Anti-Inflammatory Agents; Neck or Back
Pain; Randomized Controlled Trials; Adverse Effects.
STUDY SELECTION: Studies and literature reviews that provided a numerical estimate of
the risk of serious adverse effects or death from cervical manipulation or NSAID use were selected. Also, randomized, controlled studies that evaluated the effectiveness of manipulation or NSAID use for neck pain were included.
DATA SYNTHESIS: Although there are a small number of well-performed trials of cervical manipulation for neck pain, we were unable to locate even a single
randomized, controlled trial examining NSAID use specifically for neck pain. As for comparative safety, the best available evidence indicates that NSAID use poses a significantly greater risk of serious complications and death than the use of cervical manipulation for
comparable conditions.
CONCLUSION: The best evidence indicates that cervical manipulation for neck pain is much safer than the use of NSAIDs, by as much as a factor of several
hundred times. There is no evidence that indicates NSAID use is any more effective that cervical manipulation for neck pain.
Dabbs V, Lauretti WJ. A risk assessment of cervical manipulation vs NSAIDs for the treatment of neck
pain. J Manipulative Physiol Ther 1996; 18 (8) 530-6.
Nine of ten chiropracti
In Reply to: Re: L5-S1 spinal fusion posted by Kari Cross on January 26, 1998 at 18:47:10:
Dear Kari,
No apology needed. You may not recall but I had the same problem for a number of years before I learned what I know now. I have had no pain for more than 20 years and I did not have the recommended surgery. I DO understand what youy are going through!
I just hope that you are one of the 1/3 that get better with surgery. I/3 get worse and 1/3 stay the same. If you end up being one of the majority, I hope you will not forget what other options you have. If you are one of the lucky 1/3 who improve, you would be wise to use the time of improvement to deal with the actual causes so you do not have to go through all this again.
Good luck!
Walt
In Reply to: Re: L5-S1 spinal fusion posted by Walt Stoll on January 18, 1998 at 13:25:28:
Dear Walt,
Thank you so much for responding to me. Now I don't
feel all alone. I'm just learning how to use this computer,
so please excuse my mistakes.
I hope we can talk and compare our conditions I'm sure
you are sick of back pain as much as I am. Thanks again for
taking the time to respond to me.
Sherri
In Reply to: Re: L5-S1 spinal fusion posted by Walt Stoll on January 27, 1998 at 13:33:05:
I had this surgery in 1993 with metal screws and bars inplanted. I had to have the hardware removed in 1995. the pain is so bad that I have to take 3 to 4 methadones a day plus other medication. I also have had a spinal cord stimulator implanted in 1995, with no help. I am at the end of my rope and don't know what to do either. I am 47 years old and have to stay off my feet most of the time. If you find anything to help please let me know. I think the best thing I could tell anyone is not to have surgery unless it is absolutely a must. Good Luck and God Bless You
My is to have surgary(spinal fusion) 2-6-98 on her lower back. She already has the epudural shots and they only lasted 3 weeks and the pain returned. The Dr. suggested the spinal fusion to take care of the problem. He said that there is a 95% sucess rate for this surgry. What do you think? Thank-You
In Reply to: spinal fusion posted by Charles Mullins on January 29, 1998 at 17:28:38:
95% success rate??? Well at least you can sue him for lack of informed consent when he has to admit that the literature shows that 1/3 get better, 1/3 stay the same, and 1/3 get worse with Low Back surgeries. This 95% success rate might be the number of non-morbidity/morality with this type of surgery. Hopefully Dr. Stoll will have more to tell you. I get so frustrated with these lies that no one can seem to do anything about. BTW, ask 10 people who have had back surgery more than 4 years ago about how their back feels. You can't get toothpaste back into the tube and you can't "undo" surgery.
The Av-Med Study
This study included 80 patients, each of whom was previously treated by a medical doctor and subsequently referred to the
Silverman Chiropractic Center. Of these 80 patients, 21 % had been diagnosed with disc problems, 5% received emergency
room treatment and 12% had been diagnosed as requiring surgery.
Following chiropractic treatment, no surgery was required. 86% needed no further treatment at all. And the projected savings on the patient study group was approximately $250,000.
The Av-Med Study, 1993.
i am a 48 year old women smoker. I have questions about risks involving surgery. any alternatives? i am in severe pain. little range in neck and arms. cervical traction excerbated the pain.
In Reply to: SURGICAL REPAIR OF HERNIATED DISC C6,C7 posted by Pat Leclair on January 29, 1998 at 18:24:40:
Depending on how much of a herniation is present there may be alternatives. There are terms such as buldge, protruded, extruded, sequestered, etc.. that describe the amount of herniation that has occured. Chiropractic has a significant amount of success with disc buldges but when the damage to the disc becomes to severe other measures need to be taken and they may include surgery.
I would suggest you search through this list and look at things about skilled relaxation. See a chiropractor with your x-rays and MRI's in hand and at least get an opinion.
Good luck to you and no matter what you decide the skilled relaxation and massage info you find out about on Dr. Stoll's site would be invaluable to you.
In Reply to: Re: L5-S1 spinal fusion posted by Sue on November 28, 1997 at 22:27:56:
My husband has had 2 back surgeries since may 1997, the first was a ruptured disc and the second was a fragment pressing against the nerve. We found out monday that he has ruotured another disc. He has an apt. next week and they are talking about fusion and another procedure called "CAGE".
If you know anything about this procedure we would appreciate if you would email us. So maybe we can sleep a little better tonight. Thank you!
gtree@wworld.com
In Reply to: Re: L5-S1 spinal fusion posted by Tracy Greentree on January 30, 1998 at 13:01:33:
im having the new cage device on 17 feb
anything on this?
In Reply to: Re: L5-S1 spinal fusion posted by Cliff on January 28, 1998 at 23:33:33:
Dear Cliff,
I have had the new kind of spinal fusion where he
went in through my stomach and put a steel bolt in, and
it was supposed to be this great "new" faster way to recovery. I have gone down hill and I am worse now than before I had this, my second surgery. This is ruining my life. I'm only 26 years old and my life has been put on hold now for 3 years. I can't plan a wedding because I never know if on that day will I be able to walk without that terrible pain or not. I would like to talk to you more about how you feel after your fusion. Thank you.
In Reply to: Re: L5-S1 spinal fusion posted by Cliff on January 28, 1998 at 23:33:33:
Dear Cliff,
I have had the new kind of spinal fusion where he
went in through my stomach and put a steel bolt in, and
it was supposed to be this great "new" faster way to recovery. I have gone down hill and I am worse now than before I had this, my second surgery. This is ruining my life. I'm only 26 years old and my life has been put on hold now for 3 years. I can't plan a wedding because I never know if on that day will I be able to walk without that terrible pain or not. I would like to talk to you more about how you feel after your fusion. Thank you.
In Reply to: Re: L5-S1 spinal fusion posted by Kari Cross on January 26, 1998 at 18:35:43:
Dear Kari,
I have been reading some of your questions and your
frustrations and I see that you have had a diskogram?! Bless your heart I had one before my first surgery and that was the most painful test that I have ever had. I have recently, well in September, I had a fusion and not to discourage you but I have gotten a lot worse!!!! But, you know as well as I do that everyone is different. I will be praying for you and hoping that your fusion will be a success!!! Please write to me so we can talk and compare our back stories, I'm sure my family is sick of hearing me!
I hate when the first thing they ask is "How's your back?", and I never have good news for them. Don't get me wrong I know the only reason they ask is because they care. Hope your feeling better.
In Reply to: Re: L5-S1 spinal fusion posted by phyllis francis on January 30, 1998 at 21:47:21:
I had a L5-S1 fusion on April 21, 97. The doctor used pedical screws and plates which are to be removed on Monday Feb. 2nd 98. This procedure goes in from the back as the cage goes in thru the abdomen. For a while the cage was the only procedure approved by the FDA for a fusion.
I have had good results from my fusion. When you can take no more pain then just about any options look good. Good luck and a speedy recovery!....Joe
In Reply to: spinal fusion posted by Charles Mullins on January 29, 1998 at 17:28:38:
Dear Charles,
I would ask the surgeon to produce the literature that proves his procedure is "95% effective". Effective for what? I submit that it is about that effective for his/her income.
All the statistics I have seen say 1/3 benefit, 1/3 stay the same & 1/3 get worse.
If you will use the search feature for this BB, & read everything you can find about this condition & related spinal condiditons, you are likely to learn about a lot of options the surgeon has not offered. "To a hammer, everything looks like a nail."
Walt
Can you give me information on the best way to get my son off Vicodin ES. He has taken 3 a day for 6 years and cannot stop. He had a auto accident 5 years ago and the MD perscribed them for pain. The rest is history.
Can you recommend any vitamin suppliments that would assist him in detoxification?
Thank you!
Fusion in C5-C6 disk 5 yrs ago and still continue to have pain in neck, shoulder & arm especially when I look up & turn head to right. Any ideas - last word it could be a damaged nerve that might never rebound.
In Reply to: HERNIATED DISK PROBLEM posted by Evelyn Anderson on January 20, 1998 at 10:30:08:
I would suggest getting examined by a chiropractor asap. There may not be anything they can do for you at this point, but there is only one way to find out.
Relaxation techniques, massage, and doing all you can to avoid the need for surgery or large doses of medication should be in the front of your mind even as you read this.
In Reply to: Re: HERNIATED DISK PROBLEM posted by David Ferguson, D.C. on January 20, 1998 at 18:43:22:
I also had fusion C5/, 5 yrs ago and now upon seeking help for continued pain in neck have been advised of additional herniated disk at c8 along with bone spurs...I dread the thought of additional surgery but don't want this constant pain in the neck (pardon the pun)..Is there any alternative?
In Reply to: Re: HERNIATED DISK PROBLEM posted by va on January 20, 1998 at 22:46:04:
Again I would say that getting examined by a chiropractor would be a great idea. Sometimes things have just progressed too far for chiropractic to deal with, but the only way to find out is to be examined. Obiviously surgery is only a short term fix. Relaxation techniques and chiropractic are my only two real suggestions to try in order to avoid surgery.
Good Luck and write back if you have anymore questions.
DR. STOLL, JUST RAN ACROSS YOUR PAGE HERE. I HAVE SPONDYLISTHESIS GRADE 1, CAUSING LEG PAIN,FOOT PAINAND BILATERAL WEAKNESS. I RECENTLY SAW A NEUROSURGEON SPECIALIZING IN BACKS AND HE STATES IF HE WERE ME HE WOULD HAVE A FUSION ASAP. HE SAID THERE IS A CHANCE OF DEVELOPING A FOOT DROP. THAT BE THE CASE IAM A VERY ACTIVE PERSON AND AVERY ACTIVE CYCLIST AND MTN BIKE RACE FROM TIME TO TIME. READING ALL THE RESPONSES FROM PEOPLE WITH FUSION LOOKS AS THOUGH THIS IS NOT A PERFECTED PROCEDURE. IS THERE ANY THING OUT THERE THAT WOULD BE A BETTER MOUSE TRAP. I HAVE HEARD OF BAK FUSIONS HOW GOOD ARE THEY? ALSO HOW DO YOU GO ABOUT FINDING THE BEST DR FOR A FUSION?