Dear Todd,
I, too, has a grade one spondylolisthesis. I also had 4 other bulging discs at the same time. Surgery was the only recommended option. Within 6 months of practicing what all competent Pain & Stress Treatment Centers now recommend, I was symptom free AND that was more than 20 years ago--no symptoms since.
Use the search feature for this BB & read everything you can find about your problem and any spinal problem for which surgery is a commonn recommendation.
I am sure Doc Dave will have good recommendations for you as well.
THEN, if you still have questions, write again.
Walt
As Dr. Stoll mentioned I do have something to say.
I have a grade 1 sponlylo of L5 myself, that I got picking strawberries all day and playing a double header as a catcher that night.
Spondylos DON'T HURT. Sounds absurd I know but the truth is they don't. Not all by themselves. It's their relationship to surrounding structures that the pain comes from. Therefore, correcting this relationship does wonders in removing the pain.
Consulting a chiropractor, such as one you would find at a pain management group, or lone pratitioner would be a great idea for you. The idea of having surgery for this condition is criminal. So much so that I waited to tackle this question until Dr. Stoll broke the news to you that you surely didn't need it.
Again, I have never know anyone, EVER, who has needed a surgical intervention for sponylolisthesis unless it was a grade 4 and many times not even then. The pain is because of the suceptibility of this, now damaged, structure to mal-articulate with surrounding structures by way of the posterior joints of that vertebrae(not the part that is slipping). In practice I see spodylo's day after day and people never know they have them until I point them out. I proceed to treat them accordingly and a success rate of 90% convinces me that they should not be cut on. Maintenance care of about once every couple months is sometimes necessary.
It is also one of the few low back problems that are benefited by doing sit-ups.
Hope you take our advice seriously and try the conservative approaches first. You can't undo surgery.
Dr. Stoll, I'm going to be seeing a surgeon in just a couple of days. He does minimally invasive spinal fusions, and based upon his CV, I've determined he may have the closest thing there is to just what I need.
A bit about myself. I blew L5-S1 in a bicycle accident 20 years ago and have suffered chronic and accelerating back and leg pain and weakness since then (although even now there are periods when I am pain-free). My injury eventually led to my becoming a physical therapist, and my years of therapeutic work, as well as all my attempts at self-care, have led me to open a product and information supply business specializing in back and neck care.
Of course, I have undertaken a lot of PT treatments and self-treatments over the years. I have undertaken many other curative attempts as well, including chiropractic, massage, glucosamine, and a lot of others. Naturally, I have tried many different types of exercise regimens over the years. I think these have all been beneficial to some degree in keeping me active and healthy for such a long time, but I continue to become ever more debilitated, reaching the point where some more drastic form of intervention seems necessary. I have determined that my problem is due to instability of both my SI joint and Of L5-S1. MRI films bear this out, with evidence of slippage, severe disc degeneration, herniation, and stenosis.
I have only the most glancing familiarity with you, although I have seen your warnings about spinal fusion surgery. If a Pain and Stress Treatment Center would be a better option for one such as myself, I would gladly explore that option instead. But is there any reason to believe that their approach to an instability problem would be effective in reversing the progression of degenerative and stenosing conditions? After all, I have 100 lbs. of weight bearing down all day long on a loose bag of bones that sometimes shift and realign with every movement and position change.
In the meantime, I am exercising frequently and as vigorously as possible in anticipation of the shape I need to be in if I do undergo surgery. It is sometimes agonizing, but I do it willingly and positively in the belief that my system can go a long way towards undoing the corollary trauma a surgeon causes in administering his "cure". I look forward with thanks to any input you can offer.
Sue I don't recommend A spinal fusion my 7yr old daughter had one in Aug,97 and she came out of surgury not knowing whether she would ever walk again.
So,please get another opinion.
Tammy
I suffer from pain in my SI-Joints due to the spinal fusion
I had done 2 years ago. The pain is always there and
besides taking Vicodin and Motrin, would you recommend
taking Glucoseamine Sulfate? What is it and is it a natural
drug or persciption drug? What is the side effects and what
are the results from taking this drug?
Thank You, Christina
Desar Joe,
First of all, Joe, it is your son who has to want this information. No matter how much YOU (or I) want to help it is HE that has to want this enough to put in the work to learn AND to do.
Use the search feature of this BB & read everything about spinal problems & options for those problems. THEN, if you still have questions write again.
I DO think it is worth your while to learn about this. At least you can then deal better with your son's reticence to resolve this (should that be his choice). I bring it up only because there is NOTHING either one of us can do until HE is ready to do it. You can lead a horse to water--------
Walt
Dr.Stoll,I talked with you on here back in Nov & Dec.
about my daughters Spinal Fusion For her scoliosis....
Well Just a quick note Surgery was Jan.14 98
Getting ready for her to go back to school next week...
2 Isola rods and 100% correction....Her curve was at 60
degrees.....Recovery is slow.She has alot of pain where they took the bone Graft,but other than that she is doing very well
Thank you
linda
I had an experience not unlike Franks. Neurosurgeon said large ruptured disk at C6-7. Luckily no cord compression. Wants to do surgery ASAP. Has anyone had mush success?
This has got me a bit scared.
John
In Reply to: Re: L5 S1 FUSION posted by David Ferguson, D.C. on February 01, 1998 at 11:37:03:
DAVID.THANKYOU FOR YOUR TIMELY RESPONSE. A FEW OTHER QUESTIONS AND ALSO SOME ADDITIONAL INFO ON MY DR.S REPORT.
THE DR.S REPORT-" MRI SCAN SHOWS BILATERAL NERVE ROOT ENTRAPMENTAT L5 S1 DUE TO GR 1 SPONDY. THERE IS A QUESTION OF AN OLD PARS DEFECT AND THERE CLEARLY IS DEGENERATIVE DISK WITH SOME BULGING...HIS SENSATION IS GROSSLY INTACT TODAY IN THE OFFICE EXCEPT FOR HIS RIGHT ANTEROLATERAL THIGH, THE DISTRIBUTION OF THE LATERAL FEMORAL CUTANEOUS NERVE." I HAVE A SPOT MID THIGH THAT HAS BEEN NUMB FOR ABOUT 4YRS. ANYHOW WITH THIS ADDITIONAL INFO WOULD YOU STILL SUGGEST THE CONSERVATIVE APPROACH? THE BILATERAL WEEKNES CONCERNS ME THE MOST AS IAM A AVID CYCLIST AND VERY ACTIVE, IS TRACTION WORTH WHILE. ALSO FOOTDROP WAS MENTIONED AS A POSSIBLE SIDE EFFECT. HAVE YOU KNOWN THIS EVERY TO HAPPEN TO ANYONE WITH THESE TYPES OF FINDINGS? KEEP IN TOUCH. TODD HEINZ
Dear Sherri,
I am one who has beaten my problem. I had all this spinal stuff more than 25 years ago. I did what we have been discussing here on the BB for several years now and have been free of spinal pain for that long. It took me 6-12 months just as it has taken my patients who have tried the same thing.
I am sure that there are rare times when surgery is needed. However, world-wide statistics are so compelling already, that Chiropractic and Pain & Stress Treatment Centers are SO much more effective, safer & less expensive; that the day will soon come that it will be malpractice for any surgery to be done without the patient first being seen in consultation by these alternative approaches.
Walt
6 months ago I had a discectomy L4/L5 for a large herniated disc. It has been 7 months and I still am in so much pain in my lower back and left leg. My doctor tells me that I need to have a stabiliztion procedure called a spinal fusion for L4/5 S1. I keep reading that almost everyone that has this discectomy ultimately requres a Spinal fusion. Why is this not the first method of surgery used to treat a herniated/ruptured discs with severe compression of the nerve? Does anyone know the answer to this???
In Reply to: Re: L5 S1 FUSION posted by David Ferguson, D.C. on February 01, 1998 at 11:37:03:
Dear Doc Dave,
Your expertise is like the sun rising on a clear day!
Thanks! Walt
Bear with me, I'm new at this computer stuff, a little diversion since my anterior cervical discectomy with fusion in November. I had used physical therapy, chiropractic, home cervical traction and lots of Motrin. Symptoms of spinal cord compression, and a devastating MRI left me no other option but surgery...have not had one iota of pain since the surgery, not even tylenol-worthy immediately post-op, and my neurological symptoms are gone. I have lots of tips; the first: get the best most expert surgeon available. Good luck.
My sister was in a car accident in November and recieved a compression fracture of her lower back. I don't remember the numbers of the vertebre, but the doctors say that she will be able to play soccer again. I am in my first year of college and have the chance to do a research paper and I have chosen to focus on spinal fusion. If you have any information that you can send me over e-mail or if you know of any web sites that could give me more information on this subject I will be grateful. Thank you.
Sincerely,
Nathan Krause
In Reply to: Re: L5 S1 FUSION posted by DAVID FERGUSON, D.C. on February 03, 1998 at 10:23:09:
Almost all Spondylos of L5 have a seperation at the pars. Thus the entrapment he speaks of is highly unlikely due to the mechanism he suggests. It's hard to explain without showing you the anatomy of it but it boils down to: If the pars is broke then how could the slipping vertebral body pull the posterior joint into the IVF(place where the nerve comes out). A set of oblique lumbar radiographs should show if there is a pars defect and definetly an MRI. Something sounds fishy to me. The disc however could be causing nerve compression. Did you know that Northwestern took MRI's of a whole slew of people with no symptoms and something like 40% had disc protrusions? Sounds like the symptoms should match the findings before they do surgery. And with you this is not the case.
A buldge of the L5 disc would only effect the distribution of the (sometimes)L5 or (usually)S1 nerves. The LFC nerve comes out of L2 and L3. By that alone the problem you have is not from the cause they have picked out. Anyhow, the thought that an L5 disc herniation would cause lateral thigh numbness is not logical and considered completely wrong. The problems are related by their original cause but not by direct relationship. Meaning spinal dysfunction is the cause of both.
A conservative approach should definetly be explored. The only thing that indicates otherwise would be the bilateral weakness you speak of. Only a chiropractor that could actually, physically, see you could make that call. Not me, over a computer.
Foot drop is a far off possiblity. Do you know anyone who has it? Have you ever heard of anyone having it? Not very often, whether they have surgery or not. It is sometimes used as a scare tactic to get you under the knife easier. Not to mention that foot drop is a result of L5 nerve problems which primarily come from L4 disc buldges. Are you gettin' the picture? L3 disc bothers the L4 nerve, L4 disc bothers the L5 nerve, L5 disc bothers the S1 nerve. So, something that starts with a LFC nerve problem shouldn't end with a Footdrop problem. Yes I have know of cases of Footdrop. All from L4 nerve problems.
Traction is not indicated much anymore but does have some short term benefits of pain relief.
It's obvious from the Dr.'s report that, at the very least, you should get a second opinion.(if it were me, knowing what I know about anatomy and that report I would run) And I would seriously consider consulting with a reputable chiropractor in your area.
Hope everthing works out for you. Write again if you need to but put it at the top of the list so I will be sure to see it. And use your name instead of mine in the "Name:" box.
I have two herniated cervical discs, one which is compressing the spinal cord. I had an MRI, CT, and Myleogram, and I was scheduled for surgery last fall but chickened out. Have undergone a form of chiropractic treatment, but the relief was only temporary. The doctor scheduled me for surgery and was going to remove the two dics without doing any fusion. The pain is chronic now and is worse than ever. It pinches the nerve, goes down my arm and makes my hand tingly. Is surgery my best and only option?
In Reply to: Re: cervical disc fusion posted by John on February 02, 1998 at 21:47:39:
I had cervical fusion of C6 & C7 on Jan 5, 1998. My problems started when I lifted by wife's wheel chair up a flight of stairs for thanksgiving dinner at a friends house.
The strain that I had crushed the disk and caused terrible pain down my left arm to my fingertips. I asked the neuro surgeon about trying exercise and physical therapy and he agreed, but didn't think it would help. I exercised and had physical therapy religiously and the pain started subsiding.
After about 2 weeks my wife noticed a difference between my left and right arms. My left tricep muscles were getting smaller, and it was almost impossible to do certain exercises of those muscles.
The surgeon did several tests and told me that the nerve root for my left arm was damaged and the pain was less because of it. He told me I really did need the surgery to hopefully gain part of the strength I was missing.
So I had the surgery on Jan 5, 1998 and I feel wonderful. The pain went away and my left arm is gaining more and more strength daily. Don't be afraid to have it done!
In Reply to: Re: cervical disc fusion posted by John on February 02, 1998 at 21:47:39:
Dear John,
At least you should go into this with your eyes open about what to expect and what options you might have other than the surgery.
Use the search feature for this BB & read everything aobut spinal conditions for which surgery is recommended.
Walt
In Reply to: Grade 4 Spondlythesis posted by Patricia Worth on February 03, 1998 at 12:35:53:
Dear Patricia,
One of the sins of the present conventional medical monopoly is that they have suppressed any information that could be given by anyone but an MD/DO because it was considered competition to the monopoly. Because of that, many people (like you) were denied information that would have helped them earlier before things got so bad.
It could be that your only option for the present situation IS surgery. However, that surgery will only attempt to deal with the tip of the iceberg of the process and either the surgery will be unsuccessful (2/3rds of the cases) OR another spinal problem will appear in your future.
Skilled relaxation, Rolfing, Chiropractic (I am looking forward to hearing what Doc Dave has to say to you), and the like, are in your future no matter what you do right now.
If it were ME, I would be seen in consultation by a COMPETENT Pain & Stress Treatment Center (P&STC). They can tell you if you HAVE any alternatives & how long it should take for results. You can always do the surgery.
If you will use the search feature provided for this BB, you can read everything you can find about spinal conditions frequently treated surgically. THEN, if you still have questions, write again.
Walt
In Reply to: Re: cervical disc fusion posted by Ellen on February 03, 1998 at 17:08:13:
Dear Ellen,
You are one of the 1/3 successes that keep this industry going. Thanks for your testimonial!
NOW is the time for you to become a student of why you had to have the surgery so this kind of thing won't happen to you again. Unless this was caused by an acute injury that required immediate surgery, you have to have other factors that make you susceptible to similar things happening in the future.
Walt
I fractured my C-2 ondontoid peg in 1990, in a severe car accident. I wore a Halo brace for 12 weeks, and then had a cervical fusion (C-1-C-3). When the Halo was applied, I was still unconsious, and after having it removed, it was discovered that both of my shoulders were diclocated. My concern is, both of my shoulders continue to dislocate quite often. I can usually put them in myself, unless the muscles spasm, then I need help. Why is this, and what can I do? I exercise regularly, and my doctor says that there isn't anything that can be done.
I wiil soon undergo a second cervical fusion surgery. I want to know if there is a statistical resource on the comparison of autograft vs. allograft in a cervical fusion surgery. in my first surgery 2 of the 3 disks fused--allograft was used--i remember a patient lying in the bed next to me that also had cervical fusion and an autograft--i still hear him crying from the pain where the bone was obatined.
In Reply to: spinal fushion posted by Adriene O'Connor on February 05, 1998 at 12:03:02:
Dear Adriene,
The word "doctor" means "teacher". At best, your doctor is supposed to serve as a consultant to you. THEN, once you fully understand all ot the questions you have asked (or even can think of) comes the technical expertise (surgery, etc.) that would be a joint decision on your parts.
Unfortunately, the way medicine is now practiced, questions are discouraged directly or by nuance, pretending to be too rushed to be bothered, etc. After all, time is money. The reason surgeons make so much money is that they are expected to take the time to educate you about JUST what you are asking.
If you cannot talk to your doc, it is probably not your fault. S/he has likely learned just what it takes to keep you from asking. You are going to the wrong doc. You need to find one that encourages you to ask. Only the doc right on the spot can answer your questions.
If you use the search feature provided for this BB, you will see many generic answers to your questions. Perhaps, if you had a lot more ammunition, you would not be so reticent to question even your present doc. Unfortunately, once this discouraging dynamic is set up it frequently is impossible to transcend.
This is YOUR bodymind yoy are living with. YOU are the most important thing in the equation-----NOT the doc.
The back of my book (link below) has a section that would help you to become a much more effective member of your health care team. You ARE the most important one. When you are a helpless recipient of medical care, your management MUST be a lot less effective than it could be.
Walt
In Reply to: Cervical fusion/associated problems posted by Melissa Bowling on February 05, 1998 at 13:43:38:
Dear Melissa,
This is one of those conditions that NEEDS a conventional medical approach. Every time your shoulder(s) redislocate they have to flip out of the capsule that was torn when this happened the first time. The surgical approach to repairing this capsule is very successful & should be done ASAP.
Every time they slip out, more damage is done to the cartilaginous covering of the ball & socket (such as it is in the shoulder) and arthritis is the inevitable consequence.
You need to see an orthopedic surgeon in consultation. if that one doesn't know about this, you need a second opinion.
Let us know how you do.
Walt
Dear Doc Dave,
I just knew that you would have something valuable to offer here. Do you think that she can reliably solve this without repairing the capsule?
I agree that the lax ligaments are certainly a part of the problem but just as certainly, the torn capsule is contributing as well.
I appreciate learning from you!
Walt
In Reply to: Re: Cervical fusion/associated problems posted by Walt Stoll on February 07, 1998 at 08:19:30:
The capsule will play a vital part but is not as significant in the complete holding of the Humerus. It is, however, very important in the first few millimeters of tension and without the capsule intact she will ALWAYS run the risk of the dislocation reaccuring. The only reason I would try conservative methods first is because of the shaky outcome of shoulder surguries.
In Reply to: Re: Cervical fusion/associated problems posted by Walt Stoll on February 07, 1998 at 08:07:24:
Mellisa,
If Dr. Stoll says have the surgery and that he has seen them to be successful that I would say by all means have it done. I know he would never point you in the wrong direction. Just make DAMN sure you get a good Dr. that you feel comfortable with and has a good reputation.
In Reply to: Re: cervical disc fusion posted by Gary on February 03, 1998 at 20:54:38:
Gary: Thanks for your comments regarding your experience with the cervical problems. I have decided to wait on the surgery - it can't be undone. The surgery would be a posterior approach with removal of the ruptured area. I have no loss of strength yet. I am watching it very carefully. My biggest problem is sleeping. I can't lie down without my arm (L) burning and going numb to some degree. Thus I get very little sleep. Any suggestions on positions during sleep? I do not like these symptoms as I am sure the nerve is being compressed during this time. Pain has decreased since the rupture on 1/30/98.
I have been doing physical therapy (ice massage and heat) at home and will start at a clinic this week. I also happen to be a physical therapist which gives me some advantages (I hope) on the rehabilitation.
John
In Reply to: Re: cervical disc fusion posted by Paxton Foster on February 06, 1998 at 23:32:41:
Dear Paxton,
MY expertise is in dealing with the causes for problems like this so that they do not need surgery. If you are interested in THAT, use the search feature for this BB and read everything you can find about any spinal condition frequently approached surgically. Pay attention to Doc Dave's comments too.
Then, if you still have questions, write again.
Your surgeon is the one who would be able to give you the comparative statistics about the approaches you mentioned. All I am saying is that surgery is NOT the only option for these miserable conditions.
Walt
hi, I'm just getting on the net and found your web page...
I recently underwent an anterior interbody spinal fusion of
L4-5 and L5-S1 (jan 21st). I am still in quite a bit of pain and would appreciate any feedback as to what normal rehab should be...I am using a spinal stim unit for bone growth...
and am told that physical therapy won't start for 3 months...as far as pain meds...I've been trying to stay away from the heavy narcotics and am using darvocet and ibuprofen
around the clock...any feedback would be appreciated... by the way, i live near Phiadelphia...thanx
I have a friend who practices dentistry and recently underwent surgery to have 2 cervical vertibrae fused. The doctor's tell her that she will be able to practice dentistry but can't give her names of dentist's who are still clinically practicing after undergoing this surgery. Do you have any statisctics or information that might get her in touch with someone?Thanks for any help you may be!
In Reply to: Magnets for back pain posted by Larry Popson on February 08, 1998 at 11:01:25:
Helping back pain revolves around helping the cause and not just the symptoms. When you are completely tired of it, then chiropractic, skilled relaxation and possibly deep massage will help you attack the cause.
As for the magnets I have never seen a study that shows the benefits. However, since pain is only percievable because it is in the mind then if someone THINKS the magnets are helping I guess they are.
I wouldn't spend too much on them but there is no contraidication other than if you are wearing a pacemaker.
As I said, and Dr. Stoll will be along to say shortly, the answer is to fix the cause which are almost always spinal misalignment and muscular bracing. It's a cycle where the misalignments cause the bracing and stress causes the bracing of the area. The bracing holds the misalignment, protecting it from more damage. Correcting the misalignment will stop the proprioceptive signals to the brain and allow the muscles to relax as will the skilled relaxation too keep them that way.
Good luck!
In Reply to: Re: Cervical fusion/associated problems posted by David Ferguson, D.C. on February 07, 1998 at 08:50:19:
Dear Doc Dave,
Even repair of the capsule, eh? I am sure that you understand that we MDs are really only taught about the capsular repair as an approach to recurrent dislocation.
Now that you explained it, I should have figured out about the ligament stretching. I DID learn about the recurrent spraining of the ankle due to insufficient immobilization and non-weight-bearing treatment of the first ankle sprain--so I am not totally hopeless (grin). This is due to the ligaments healing very slightly longer than they developed as a holistic unit of the integrity of the joint.
Just your excellent descriptionn of the importance of the ligament shortening therapy, has greatly increased my awareness that capsular repair is at least not the ONLY thing that should be done.
I REALLY enjoy learning from you!!!
Walt
This message is for either Dr. Stoll or Dr. Dave. I am experiencing interstitial-like symptoms and lower back pain. What are your opinions about spinal instability "shorting out" nerves in the bladder and resulting in IC?
In Reply to: Bladder discomfort and spine posted by Stephane on February 09, 1998 at 12:26:42:
Things like bladder infections and UTI's can cause back pain. Likewise, spinal dysfucntion can cause nerve irritation that results in this "shorting out" you speak of. A lot depends on your examination to tell which is which. Of course I can't do that from here. I would suggest letting your chiropractor know or getting one. If the back is the problem then taking medication will do no good. If it is a UTI or similar the adjustment may very well effect this on top of back pain correction.
I would always advise to go with the least invasive, with the least side effects, first. As I said an examination by a chiropractor could tell you if you have a back problem, UT problem, or both. However, an examination from an everyday MD will only tell you if you have a bladder problem or whether its "all in you head".
Good luck!
I'm sure Dr. Stoll will be along and give some more advice.
In Reply to: Re: Bladder discomfort and spine posted by David Ferguson, D.C. on February 09, 1998 at 13:33:42:
Thanks! I guess you answered my question by saying that it could originate with back or bladder. I know about the bladder causing the back pain. But since I have back pain more than I have bladder discomfort, I am attributing the discomfort to spinal instability. So, to sum up your message, you do believe that back pain can cause bladder pain, correct?
I reside in Shelton, CT. I have always participated in athletics and have been physically active, almost to a reckless extent. I actually played professional baseball. About five years ago, I woke up to a strange and instantaneous numbing sensation in the lower back portion of my skull along with an incredibly stiff back and neck. There was no numbness or shooting pains which seems common in most of the herniated neck cases. I had a CAT scan done of the skull and an x-ray done and they both showed nothing. At the time, I was an immature 19 year old kid and did not know much and just toughed it out. But from what I recall, the pain was excrutiating and took about 6 months to go away naturally. It's been five years now and I have done something to reaggravate this. I could not even tell you what I actually did, but I do lift heavy weights. I am in pure agony. It is not so much the pain below the neck that I cannot tolerate as much as the pain above. I have shooting pains into my ears and sinuses along with a numbing pain in the back of my skull that leaves me in constant state of fog. My chiropractor almost guarantees a disc problem from the symptoms I mention. My questions are: do these sound like normal symptoms of cervical herniation - it sounds as though most of these people that I read about have problems below the neck? What steps should I take in resolving the matter because I do not know if I could tolerate another episode?
In Reply to: Re: cervical disc fusion posted by Nathan Krause on February 03, 1998 at 18:13:23:
I had a diagnosis of a cervical disc herniation at C6/C7
on june 1997. Now 95% of the pain is gone only with
conservative treatment.
I am a 36 years old engineer and I have been a amateur
athlete for the last 15 years (windsurfing).
What is your advice for me? Is it possibile that it heals
alone? If so, how long does it take normally to happen completely?
Thanks
Antonio Albuquerque
acn@secrel.com.br
Hello Dr. Stoll
This is my second time here. To remind you:
I suffer, for 5 months now, from pain around my left shoulder especially on the front along
the armpit side and up to the top of the shoulder.
I can move my shoulder freely except some motions cause pain
(muscle pain, not IN the shoulder usually) such as lifting and I can’t lay on the shoulder .
I suffered no special trauma to the erea.
It started around the shoulder and went up my neck and I have developed TMJ symptoms.
The pain is along the pectoralis muscle on the front I have been in FT for 2months with not much help The FT deals with my back musclesand says that my problem is with the trapezius muscle. I do have a kind of knot in the middle of my trpezius muscle and all the upper left side of my back is painful.
An EMG test showed - cervical root irritation C5-6 on the left and low performance of the Biceps and A.P.B (?) muscles but no nerve damage. ct and x-ray all came out O.K.
I have been to a chiropractor that didn’t help me and I have decided to take your advice and give another chiropractor a chance.
My biggest worry is - what if the damage is in the shoulder, like a tear of some kind ?
Do my symptoms sound like that or is it all from the neck ?
Sorry for the LONG message but I really value your opinion,
What do you think ?
Thank you
Anat
In Reply to: Shoulder/ Neck posted by Anat Shem-Or on February 10, 1998 at 08:05:14:
Giving my unsolicited opinion, I would say it is a combination problem the is related to your cervical or upper thoracic spine AND with the lateral rotation of your left scapula.
You need to find a chiropractor who is familiar with extremity problems such as that you have with your scapula. I see simailar cases like yours everyday. In fact I saw two yesteraday. They are not that difficult to correct and part of the benefit depends on you.
In the morning when you get up and in the evening before you go to bed, you want to stretch your shoulders back, contracting your shoulder blades together and stretching your chest. Lean into a corner with your arms bent to help stretch your chest. This helps reverse the posture associated with the problem you have.
You also need to avoid sleeping on that side for a couple weeks as that also "rounds" that shoulder.
If the chiropractor you go to next does not do trigger point work in your right trap and rhomoboids then you will need to add a massage therapist in there for a couple of sessions.
Again, what you want from a chiropractor is someone who is going to work with your spine(from x-ray) and also deal with the abnormal biomechanics of the shoulder, trigger point work is also a must but the chiropractor doesn't have to be the one to do it.
From the descriptions of you symptoms there is little indication of anything being torn in you shoulder. However, an examination by the new chiropractor you get will let you know.
If you haven't looked into the skilled relaxation that Dr. Stoll talks about you need to. It will speed your recovery and really help from having any reacurrences.
Good Luck!
In Reply to: Re: L5 S1 FUSION posted by Linda Myers on February 02, 1998 at 21:39:09:
Dr.Stoll:
Do you have any info about ISOLA RODS.?
Intrumentation used in scoliosis spinal fusion surgery?
Im wondering if there is anywhere on the net i can go to
to find any info on them....
thanks....
Linda
LILBIT0603@aol.com
In Reply to: Re: L5 S1 FUSION posted by Linda Myers on February 02, 1998 at 21:39:09:
Sorry I also Ment to tell you that she is fused from T-2 To L-4......She had and Ilac Bone crest bone graft taken for the fusion...
Also has 1/4in Hooks,screws,nuts and bolts....
In Reply to: Re: cervical disc fusion posted by Teresa Hills on February 08, 1998 at 20:15:24:
Dear Theresa,
Since the national statistics are (for this kind of surgery) 1/3 get better, 1/3 get worse and 1/3 stay the same. It seems to me that flipping a coin would give one a better chance (safer and less expensive as well).
Have your friend use the search feature for this BB & read everything she can find about any spinal condition for which surgery is frequently recommended.
The reason I say she has to do it is that nothing you nor I can say will help her until SHE decides she is willing to become the expert in her options.
THEN, if she still has questions, write again.
Walt
In Reply to: Cervical fusion/associated problems posted by Melissa Bowling on February 05, 1998 at 13:43:38:
WOW--I didn't think I would get so much great feedback (isn't it sad that I can get more answers from 2 guys off the internet than 2 neurosurgeons!)
OK-on to question #2 regarding this mess in my neck
After the Halo was applied, I started my healing process, and about half way through my 12 weeks, my front screws came out of my head (the doctor on call said I was having an anxiety attack-the doctor on call the next day had to reapply the Halo) anyway, when my 12 weeks were up, my x-ray showed that the bone was only 1/4 fused. On to surgery. It was supposed to be a wiring of C-1 to C-3 turned into C-clamps, and one of those "came loose" during the two days I was hospitalized after surgery (most stay for 5 days)--besides all of these screwey things happening I healed and got on with my life...Now it is 7 years later. I fell last May, not hard but started having a lot of pain in my upper neck/head. Went to Neurosurgeon #2, had MRI, CT scan, x-ray--you name it, I had it. One Neurosurgeon (not #2) on call said the clamp was to blame, had to be removed. #2 said he wanted to wait and see...we're still waiting.
What is your advise? I have been to chiropractors (regained ALL mobility!) and traditional doctors have kept me drugged.
Help!
In Reply to: Re: Bladder discomfort and spine posted by Stephanie on February 10, 1998 at 08:17:05:
Now you are getting at the core difference between what your physician and his collegues do compared to what Dr. Stoll and I do.
Your physician is aware of viscero-somatic reflexes which are the organ causing musculo-skeletal type pain. They do not, however choose to believe the overwelming body of evidence that show the existence of somato-visceral reflexes(aka Somato-autonomic reflexes) which show not only the spinal dysfunction causing organ/visceral pain but also organ/visceral dysfunction.
It serves no purpose, in their minds, to learn about this as the basic philosophy of medicine is a reductionist belief that we are the sum of our parts. The rest of the worlds healing arts know that we are made of much more than just our parts added together and that everything is related.
Dr. Stoll and I know that the organ dysfunction, not just pain, is a result of stressors on the body whether they be chemical, physical, psychological. As the founder of chiropractic used to say "The three T's-thoughts, traumas, and toxins". A toxic amount of E. Coli will harm anyone, no matter how good of shape they are in but the suceptibility of a host is very controlable and the body of that host WANTS to heal. The key is to recognize that many of the illnesses and conditions of today are easily addressable by removing these stressors.
A little off the subject I know but I get chatty sometimes.
Now there are lots of studies and case reports that show the benefits of chiropractic with things such as UTI's, Asthma, Constipation, Sinus infections, etc.. but to show this to your physician would do NO good(actually 1/1,000). Trust me, I have tried. For an MD to accept that the somato-autonomic reflex is valid would be to turn his whole philosophy of healing upside down. The difference between the two is similar to the difference between Dr. Stoll and your physician.
Imagine what Dr. Stoll must have gone through when he choose to recognize and accept the truth, then to go and practice this truth. It means being cast out by all of your collegues. It means negating much of what you spent years learning in school and most of all it means admitting you were wrong and mistreated countless individuals over the years as a Dr who's oath is "first, do no harm".
The reason you can't show your physician anything and have him believe it is because MDs like Dr. Stoll are one in a million.
To ask him to accept this somato-autonomic reflex fact is to ask him to negate everything that he has been taught and practiced. The research and literature are plentyful, the osteopathic profession showed the somato-autonomic reflex in the 40's and 50's but since they couldn't prove the mechanism by which they affected it they stopped and chose to join the allopathic regime rather than face more slander and propaganda. The same slander and propaganda the chiropractic sued the AMA and thirteen other medical organizations for in the Wilks vs. AMA anti trust lawsuit. They spread the lies and made it "illegal" for any memeber to converse with a chiropractor.
The short of it is, I'm sorry that the world stinks sometimes. I guess we can just be glad we have MDs like Dr. Stoll. And that we had the late Dr. Robert Mendeleson.
In Reply to: Re: Bladder and bowel discomfort and spine posted by Nancy on February 10, 1998 at 19:19:45:
Are you sure that the bowel problem is causing the back pain? Spinal dysfunction and nerve interference can cause bowel irregularity.
This is the delimma. Which is causing which. I just know from exprience that both happen. I also know that correcting the spinal dysfunction has dramatic results in getting rid of any further bowel problems for many people.
It's back to that somato-viceral reflex and viscero-somatic reflex.
With one hip "getting higher" I wouldn't hesitate to say the pelvic and/or upper lumbar subluxations are present and either causing or complicating your problem.
Hope this leads you down the path to feeling better.
In Reply to: Re: Bladder discomfort and spine posted by David Ferguson, D.C. on February 10, 1998 at 18:53:06:
One thing you might ask your physician is.. if there can be nerve pressure in the cervical spine that causes arm pain and there can be nerve pressure in the lower lumbars that cause leg pain then what happens to nerve pressure between T1-L2?
It just so happens that the sympathetic nervous system comes from, and only from, these levels. What does the sympathetic NS go to? ORGANS
I have had back & leg pain for 4 years.It was damaged at
work lifting heavy odjeats.MRI scans were done and it
showed damage at L5 S1.But the pain has spread to other
areas of my back.I am thinking adout afusion.My doctors
think I should try this but I am not to sure because i have
heard so many bad stories.I would like to here adout people who have had this done.thankyou John.
In Reply to: Re: cervical disc fusion posted by Ellen on February 03, 1998 at 17:08:13:
I have herniation of c-5and c-6. Injured 6/96. I have bouts of pain with radiculapathy. My neck and shoulder have been killing me for 2 months. Could rest and physical threapy prevent surgery. I have not talked to 2 person who did not have recurrent problems after surgery,
P.S> I am not sure who I am writing too!
In Reply to: Re: cervical disc fusion posted by Michael Bajda on February 09, 1998 at 15:31:14:
Dear Michael,
If you do not have herniation yet, you eventually will.
If you had a deep, total-body, therapeutic massage 3 times a week for 2 weeks, you would be astounded as to how much relief you would get. The main reason for you to do this is so you understand at a deep level that I know what I am talking about. Your relief will last a few weeks. If you did 10 Rolfing sessions, the relief might last a year or so.
You undoubtedly have severe chronic bracing and that has progressed to TMJ & plagiocepaly. Without your getting rid of the bracing, no matter what you do, the problem will eventually come back.
Even if you already HAVE herniation, all of the above approaches would still help AND discharging the bracing is the only thing that will prevent recurrence in the future.
I am sure Doc Dave will have structural recommendations that would enhance anything I have mentioned.
You would benefit greatly by using the search feature for this BB and reading everything you can find about spinal conditions.
THEN, if you still have questions, write again.
Walt
In Reply to: Tingling Feet posted by Dave Blake on February 09, 1998 at 21:18:05:
Dear Dave,
In MY experience, symptoms should continue to improve once they start (post op). Any return of symptoms, once they were gone is not a good sign.
I would recommend having the doc "explain" why this is "normal" while you are recording his explanation. Do the recording very conspiculously since you are not trying to trap him. You are just trying to get him to tell the truth before things get worse.
Finally, you both would benefit from using the search feature for this BB & reading everything you can find about spinal conditions and their options for resolution.
Then, if you still have questions, write again.
Walt
As was mentioned some time ago by Dr. Stoll bracing is the underlying cause to an unlimited number of conditions. Skilled relaxation is one very effective way of breaking the cycle.
With bracing being the cause of a problem we(health care providers such as Dr. Stoll and I are always looking for the cause) have to ask what is the cause of this cause. Obviously since the skilled relaxation is so effective then stress is a major cause. Muscle imbalance due to spinal misalignments and the compensation involved has always proved to be an important factor also.(it should be noted that bracing due to psychological and chemical stress can sometimes induce this bracing to actually cause the spinal dysfunction)
So what types of people are prone to psychological bracing? I have found that the most common group, but not exclusivly by any means, are those who absorb and retain emotional frustration. People who are considered the "calming factor" in families. Although these people SEEM to be very stress free on the outside, they are riddled with supressed stress. The downtrodden factory worker or the humble wife are a couple of the likely candidates that come to mind.
If you are one of these people you may never consider youself "stressed out" because you don't present the type A personality that we always associate with "stress mongers". Venting stress in outburst and fits of anger are not healthy ways and lead to their own set of cardio vascular problems.
So this is why skilled relaxation is so important. Releasing stress in this way rids the body of the stress yet does so in a less non-producive way than screaming at bad drivers ;)
So if you have been reading posts all this time thinking you don't have to worry about bracing because you rarely get mad, think again. You are one of the most likely persons to be bracing and suffering from conditions like scoliosis, fibromyalgia, mysterious triceps pain, migraine headaches, irritable bowel syndrome, the list goes on. Once you have reached this point Skilled relaxaion, chiropractic, and deep massage are your new best friends.
And for those of you who do vent your frustration you would do well to follow the advice of a great man who said.
RELAX YOU SHOULDERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!(is that a blast from the past Walt?)
My father recently visited a doctor in New Orleans that gave him the option to have cervical disc repacement on C2 and C3 with metal plates because of deterioration. Besides having back and neck pain, he has had numbness in his face, rashes, diaherrea and nausea all on occasion. I'm not sure if they are all related. Should he, in fact, go through with this surgery? We have heard pros and cons. If so, what are the risks involved? If not, what are his alternatives? We have tried nearly everything and hope for some good advice! Thank you for your time!
Terri Russo
Dr. Stoll,
I just wanted to update you on my condition, I had a abdominal Spinal fusion at L5-S1 on Feb. 5, 1998. The doctor was very selective on doing surgery and has only done 20 of these operation in the last two years. So he isn't a operating kind of doctor for no reason.
Anyway, he put a cadavar bone in the shape of a screw in my back and then took bone from my hip to give it a jump start. After the surgery was over he asked me how the pain was, and I have to say, that since the surgery, I have had absolutely no back pain and don't know what to do with myself. The doctors were very excited. He told me that if I had no pain then the surgery was a sucess. I guess I am in the 1/3 range of people that do good from this surgery. I know it has only been a week, but I will tell you this, it has been the best week of my life since I hurt my back. Makes the incision in the front of me seem like it is not even there. I am very thankful for all your help and what my own doctor has done for me. I hope I continue to feel this wonderful..
Kari
In Reply to: Re: L5 S1 FUSION posted by Linda Myers on February 10, 1998 at 09:55:16:
Dear Linda,
Since I learned that ALL scoliosis can be resolved by combining Rolfing with the individual practicing effective skilled relaxation at least 20 minutes twice a day (never within 2 hours of retiring)--20+ years ago, I have paid no more attention to rods. If the individual was not willing to do what could be done to resolve the problem without surgery, I referred them to the surgeon who knew a lot more about stuff like that than I did anyhow.
I would recommend that any surgeon being considered explain the information you are requesting.
I hope this addresses your question.
Walt
In Reply to: Re: L5 S1 FUSION posted by Linda Myers on February 10, 1998 at 09:57:33:
Dear Linda,
This is definitely a question for the surgeon. The reason the average orthopedic surgeon makes $500,000/year is so they can take the time to explain all this stuff to EVERYONE.
Walt
In Reply to: Re: Cervical fusion-more questions posted by Melissa on February 10, 1998 at 18:36:15:
Dear Melissa,
The average neurosurgeon makes more than $500,000/year. They make so much money so they will be able to take the time to answer these kind of questions in depth. Unfortunately, lots of them just take their money & run. Those guys are technicians and should not be considered physicians.
MY expertise is in helping people understand their options.
With all the trouble you have had, were it me, I would see Dr Shealy in consultation at his P&STC. He is an MD, PhD neuro surgeon with 40 years of experience. If you have used the search feature, you know how to reach him.
Walt
In Reply to: Re: cervical disc fusion posted by DSW on February 11, 1998 at 01:34:13:
Dear DSW,
The national statistics are 1/3 get better, 1/3 get worse & 1/3 stay the same. So far, you have spoken to a select group.
There are more options for you IF you are willing to learn & do something about what you learn.
First, use the search feature for this BB & read everything you can find about spinal problems frequently surgerized. I even think there is a special section of the archives that does this for you with this subject.
THEN, if you still have questions, write again.
Walt
I used to be on vicodin for my back pain.I have had 4 back sugeries.I now have to take methadone for my back pain.Vicodi was veryt helpful in the begining of my back pain.
In Reply to: L5-S1 spinal fusion posted by Kari Cross on February 12, 1998 at 08:12:34:
Dear Kari,
Congratulations to you and your doc for your "success".
Now is the time to take your success & run with it. Become a student of what we have been talking about, here on the BB, so you can never have this kind of thing happen to you again.
Hope is a pretty thin protection for the future. Remember, God helps those who help themselves.
Walt
In Reply to: Re: Spinal Fusion, Vicodin and CMO posted by michael on February 13, 1998 at 15:01:58:
Dear Michael,
It sounds like you have had 4 failed back surgeries. Isn't it about time that you learned WHY they have been failures?
My first suggestion would be to use the search feature for this BB & read everything you can find about spinal problems. There is so much that this subject was one of the first made available in the "archives" for you to access.
THEN, is you still have more questions, write again.
Walt
Hi;
I just read your letter. I am in the process of being scheduled for surgery and i am seriously worried about my use of vicodin and soma. I take pills at least 4x's a day..usually more because i can't function or sleep.
will i ever get off of this stuff? will the surgery ease the pain?
i have 2 bad discs, they are diseased, L3 and L5S1.
i am so scared i am addicted....no one seems to understand and i feel guilty about the meds, but they are not helping...i could take 1000 is possible....
any comments?
I'm a 36-year-old male. Over the past three years I have started to have "attacks" c. every 6 months. These usually consist of extreme stiffness and pain in the neck and shoulder and sometimes radiating pain into the arm, usually only on one side per attack.
The neurosurgeon told me that I have arthritis of the neck, degenerative disc disease and a reversal of the normal curvature of the neck. He said that bone spurs are pinching nerves in the neck. He prescribed neck and range of motion exercises. He says that the attacks will continue to occur c. every six months, and that if they get more frequent the treatment is a cervical fusion.
I have also noticed that I carry my shoulders clenched up tight, and I can never get them to completely relax. I wake up in the morning with my shoulders all clenched up and sometimes my pectorals stiff and have to sit at the edge of the bed for a minute or so to allow my shoulders to relax a bit. Sometimes I feel that all I want is to get my shoulders to relax.
I have put on about 30 lbs. over the last few years and am now c. 50 lbs. overweight, 5'8" 200 lbs.
Any ideas about what is wrong with me and what I could do besides the surgery?
Thank you.
In Reply to: cervical osteoarthritis posted by Ron on February 17, 1998 at 04:37:42:
Chiropractic and Relaxation Techniques!
Osteoarthritis is a result of spinal dysfunction. The bone proliferates to futher support the area. The only portion of this that your neurosurgeon recognizes is the reverse cervical curve. If the spurs are pinching some of the time but not all of the time then there must be ceratain vertebral positions that do not cause this pressure. Those positions are surely "normal" positions as these allow the maximum space for emitting neural tissue.
The reason he says treatment is cervical fusion is because that is the business he is in.(To a hammer, everything is a nail) He should have told you that chiropractic is well know for conservative success with cases like yours. Of course then he wouldn't get to do the surgery and wouldn't get to buy that new Lawnmower he's had his eye on.
Part of the long term benefits will come from the relaxation techniques. That muscle tension you describe is a part of the degeneration.
*Nine of ten chiropractic users felt their treatment was effective.
The Gallup Organization, 1991.
*Chiropractic patients were three times more satisfied with their care than patients of family practice physicians."
Western Journal of Medicine, 1989.
*Improving with Chiropractic Longer Lasting With Fewer Visits Than Physical Therapy Koes, B.W., Bouter, L.M.. et al. "Randomized Clinical Trial of Manipulative Therapy and Physiotherapy for Persistent Back and Neck Complaints: Results of One Year Follow Up," British Medical Journal, 7 March 1992, Volume 304, Pages 601-605.
This Dutch project compared the effectiveness of manipulation and physical therapy for the treatment of persistent back and neck complaints. The group receiving manipulative treatment showed greater improvement in the primary complaint as well as physical functions with fewer visits. It also demonstrated that manipulation and physical therapy are not interchangeable.
If you need anymore info please write back.
In Reply to: Re: cervical disc fusion posted by Collin Hermreck on February 03, 1998 at 20:06:39:
I HAVE CERVICAL DISC DESESE ON C-5 C6- C7 ANY RECOMMENTATION FOR THIS NAGGING DISORDER?
In Reply to: Please, can anybody answer this ? posted by Terrie on February 17, 1998 at 20:43:32:
Since you can't really fracture a disc I don't think your Dr knows what the hell he is talking about. Discs buldge, protrude, prolapse, herniate, and sequester but they do not fracture. NOT TO MENTION you can't see discs on an x-ray. They are made primarily of water and can't be differentiated from any other sturcture such as muscle, vessels, organs, etc...ANYONE who tells you otherwise should open a book and get informed. That's why MRIs and CATscans are neccessary to diagnose buldging discs beyond what orthopedic tests can tell you. (Orthopedic test does not mean test only done by orthopedists, they are a group of physical tests that any MD SHOULD already know and EVERY chiropractor uses to diagnose such conditions.) There are approximately 40 orthopedic and neurologic tests that I do on each patient PRIOR to x-rays to aid in an accurate diagnosis.
Secondly, you can't base a diagnosis of TOS on just symptoms. There are specific orthopedic tests that apply to TOS and without performing them you can't even begin to make a diagnosis.
The reason you are getting "brushed off" is because there is nothing he can do for you and knows that if he sends you to a chiropractor he has 1. lost a patient 2. risks repremand from his local medical association(despite the fact that the repremand is illegal). 3. risks possible negativity from your HMO. 4. risks negativity from the Orthopedic surgeon who stands to make $100+ from your consultation alone.
I can't tell you what your problem is exactly, of course, but I can point you in the right direction. Go see a reputable chiropractor in your area. The x-rays you have from the MD may be helpful but probably not sufficient as it only makes sense to take spinal x-rays, that are for biomechanical analysis, in the upright(weight bearing) position.
TOS, if that is the problem, involves the structures of the shoulder girdle. The clavicle, scapula, 1st rib and upper thoracic vertebrae and their relationship to the neural and vascular bundles that traverse a thight space through the shoulder and branch into the arm.
Manipulation Best for Shoulder Girdle Problems(British Medical Journal)
Objective: To compare the efficacy of physiotherapy, manipulation, and corticosteroid injection for
treating patients with shoulder complaints in general practice.
Design: Randomised, single blind study.
Setting: Seven general practices in the Netherlands.
Subjects: 198 patients with shoulder complaints, of whom 172 were divided, on the basis of
physical examination, into two diagnostic groups: a shoulder girdle group (n=58) and a synovial
group (n=114).
Interventions: Patients in the shoulder girdle group were randomised to manipulation or
physiotherapy, and patients in the synovial group were randomised to corticosteroid injection,
manipulation, or physiotherapy.
Main outcome measures: Duration of shoulder complaints analysed by survival analysis.
Results: In the shoulder girdle group duration of complaints was significantly shorter after
manipulation compared with physiotherapy (P<0.001). Also the number of patients reporting
treatment failure was less with manipulation. In the synovial group duration of complaints was
shortest after corticosteroid injection compared with manipulation and physiotherapy (P<0.001).
Drop out due to treatment failure was low in the injection group (17%) and high in the manipulation
group (59%) and physiotherapy group (51%).
Conclusions: For treating shoulder girdle disorders, manipulation seems to be the preferred
treatment. For the synovial disorders, corticosteroid injection seems the best treatment.
Jan C Winters, Jan S Sobel, Klaas H Groenier, Hans J Arendzen, Betty Meyboom-de Jong. Comparison of physiotherapy, manipulation, and
corticosteroid injection for treating shoulder complaints in general practice: randomised, single blind study. BMJ 1997;314:1320-1325.
It's too bad you have been given the run around ab
In Reply to: Doctor Dave posted by Terrie on February 18, 1998 at 00:37:41:
D.C.=Doctor of Chiropractic.
2400mg of motrin a day=kidney and liver fall out onto the floor ;-)
Your regular physician is wrong about the fall not being able to cause the thoracic pain. WAY WRONG. It's true that the spinal dysfunction may have been present before and only exacerbated by the fall but it surely is the fall that got this pain "rolling".
Ever take your car in to get fixed and get it back with little or no improvement? This doesn't mean that no mechanic can fix your car. In fact you just take it somewhere else and get it done right. SAME applies with chiropractors. Ask around about someone good or call some chiropractors up and ask some questions to get a "feel" about who you like. Just as you can switch primary health care providers you can switch chiropractors. If you need any help locating one e-mail me at drdave@kih.net with your specific location and I will do my best to give you a list of names that seem pretty good.
BTW, it doesn't sound so much like TOS as it does what most call Brachial Plexus Radiculopathy, which basicly means pressure on the nerves of the brachial plexus, the nerves that come out of the neck and upper throacic spine and supply innervation to the arm. Correcting the "subluxations" of the spine and practicing skilled relaxation has worked for approximately 90% of my patients. For the 10% that don't benefit, a neurologist is in order but NOT an orthopedic surgeon.
Good luck and let me know if I can help, it's not a problem.
In Reply to: cervical osteoarthritis posted by Ron on February 17, 1998 at 04:37:42:
Dear Ron,
Listen to doc dave. I would encourage you to use some tinctute of knowledge. To start on that path, I would recommend you use the search feature for this BB & read everything you can find about spinal problems frequently approached surgically.
You have a classical case of "bracing" which is causing everything.
Once you have the above under your belt, if you still have questions, write again.
Walt
In Reply to: Re: Doctor Dave posted by Terrie on February 18, 1998 at 08:59:18:
Dear Terrie,
Listen to Doc Dave. He has said all this MUCH better than I could have. I would like to emphasize the skilled relaxation, Rolfing and massage mentioned so many times right here on this BB for spinal problems like this. Use the search feature & read as many spinal problems as you can find.
THEN, if you still have questions, write again. It would have been much better if your conventional doc had referred you to a D.C. when you started having your symptoms. However, Doc Dave is "right on" about why he didn't.
Walt
Ten years ago I had a bilateral lami w/diskectomy L-5/S-1. Since then I have been in terrific pain, having had physical therapy on four different occasions and then to top it all, I reinjured my back tripping in my office at work four times in 1987. Over a over a piece of carpet that had been removed by my desk and never replaced till after the fourth fall. I have been on a workers comp disability for six months and have seen two Dr's, one being a family practice MD., who sent me to see a neurosurgeon, who incidentally assisted in my lami in 1988. He is sending me to see a spinal specialist named Ferdinand Ravessoud, MD on Monday Feb 23, 1998. I am considering a fusion on L-5/S-1. Will I be able to function as normal if the surgery is done?
Two years ago at Kaiser Sunset, in Los Angeles, CA. I was told that I was an excellent candidate for a fusion but due to the fact that I was a smoker, the Dr refused to operate. I am hoping that now that I have stopped smoking that things will be different. I have taken Vicodin qid on and off for many years and it has no effect on me now. I have Flexeril 10mg qid and Daypro 2 tabs at breakfast. Also, I have the Duragesic transdermal patch in 2.5 mg Fentanyl for emergencies.
Would I have any good outlook if the surgery were performed?
I have lived in chronic pain for 19 years now and am very tired of pills. In tripping at work last July for the 4th time, I went airborne and hit a cabinet 18: high and fell over the top so to speak and my supervisor stated "GEE I'M GLAD YOU DIDN'T BREAK YOUR NECK". I have been in very constant pain at the above stated level, 10X more than before. Do you think that I have a chance? I would like to live somewhat pain.
What is a CMO, I am familiar with an HMO?
I am scheduled for surgery 2-23-98 for a spinal fusion there is a new procedure that I am going to be experimented on that has not yet been approved by the FDA but my Dr. has already performed several with the new TIS and ,it is small and has little teeth to grip inbetween and is small they still take bone from the pelvic and insert in the middle of the TIS But the women that have received this have had great success. There is also another one called a BIK and is like two cylinders with bone inserted in the middle also.
I have 3 ruptures and L4 is torn in two. I had fell at work two times landing on my lower back that has brought me to this time of surgery.
I was in a auto accident 10 yrs. ago and suffered multipul fractures, in my anckels, shoulder, pelvis, fractured and dislocated my hips also, crushed my left arm and plastic surgery to my face, and tore my liver. But the worst pain I have had has been in my back and I can't take no more. It is worth it to me to have this surgery and try to make my life better for me and my family I am 33yrs. old.
I have faith in the Lord that this will work out for me. I also have an excellent DR.
Good luck to all of you I pray God will help you all.
Gina
In Reply to: Re: cervical disc fusion posted by Paxton Foster on February 06, 1998 at 23:32:41:
The graft sight pain should resolve within a few weeks, it has left me with NO permanent pain; however, the fusion collapsed at the 6-7 level (surgery 4/97), and that pain from that is almost intolerable. I like you am contemplating a second surgery, but trying alternative methods first (pain management via Tylenol, massage, biofeedback, etc.) In addition, I keep my arm strength by doing gentle isometrics. It is a long drawn out process with no guarentees either way. Hardest part is keeping a positive attitude! Hang in there and good luck.:)
I have been diagnosed with arthritis - degenerative disc disease. Xrays show the lower 2 disks are virtually gone. Despite an excercise program, there is occasional "slippage" of the bones which causes pinched nerve pain. This used to heal itself in a few weeks or months, but in the past couple of years it seems to happen more often and the pain never goes away before the next occurrence. Recently I have been thinking about fusion surgery, especially the new implant techniques like the BAK. But the stories on your BB scare the hell out of me. Still, the technology seems to be developing rapidly.
Why do the clinical results published by the manufacturers of these devices show so much better success than 1 out of 3? Are they lying? My wife has an 84-year-old aunt that had L4-L5-S1 fusion in 1963 and has had great success for 35 years. The hardware they used on her back then sounded like stone-age technology compared with today's.
The Spine-tech web sites have disappeared. Do you know the name of the company that bought out Spine-tech? Swedish I believe?
In Reply to: spinal fusion - l4-l5-s1 posted by Gerry Maki on February 19, 1998 at 16:21:24:
Successful surgery can mean different things to different people. To a company promoting their product it can be anything from "the patient didn't die on the table, there was no pain at 6 weeks after the operation, etc.. To all who do a TRUE evaluation of a product you need to evaluate patients at intervals over long periods of time. The 1/3 rule, I believe, is the success at 5 years. Whats the point in spending 25 grand and risking death from anasthesia, infection, paralysis, etc.. if you have a 66% chance of being the same or worse within 5 years. YES almost everyone does well at first but since you are not correcting the cause of why the degenerative disc disease, degenerative joint disease, osteoarthritis, etc..is there to start with your not getting rid of the cause. That is fabulous that your aunt had such success. Unfortunately she is the exception and not necessarily the rule.
What Dr. Stoll and I are doing here is not telling people to never have surgery but to try less invasive PROVEN procedures FIRST! There are many things that your medical doctor will not tell you about. A combination of Chiropractic, Massage, and Skilled Relaxation is highly effective in correcting and keeping correct low back problems. I know that we are only two people telling you this compared to the face to face advice you are getting from your MD so I added a few things below to help you realize that the truth is well known but never fills the pockets of those who do the surgery and those who come up with new "ways" of doing the same ole' thing.
***"Only about 15 percent of all medical interventions are supported by solid scientific evidence, according to David M. Edy, M.D., Ph.D., professor of health policy and management at Duke University, North Carolina."
***Nine of ten chiropractic users felt their treatment was effective.
The Gallup Organization, 1991.
***Av-Med Study
This study included 80 patients, each of whom was previously treated by a medical doctor and subsequently referred to the
Silverman Chiropractic Center. Of these 80 patients, 21 % had been diagnosed with disc problems, 5% received emergency
room treatment and 12% had been diagnosed as requiring surgery.
Following chiropractic treatment, no surgery was required. 86% needed no further treatment at all. And the projected savings on the patient study group was approximately $250,000.
The Av-Med Study, 1993.
***British Medical Journal
Three Year Follow Up Shows Spinal Manipulation Effective for Low Back Pain
OBJECTIVE--To compare the effectiveness over three years of
chiropractic and hospital outpatient management for low back pain.
DESIGN--Randomised allocation of patients to chiropractic or hospital outpatient management.
SETTING--Chiropractic clinics and hospital outpatient departments within reasonable travelling distance of each other in 11 centres.
SUBJECTS--741 men and women aged 18-64 years with low back pain in whom manipulation was not contraindicated.
OUTCOME MEASURES--Change in total Oswestry questionnaire score and in score for pain and patient satisfaction with allocated treatment.
RESULTS--According to total Oswestry scores improvement in all patients at three years was about 29% more in those treated by chiropractors than in those treated by the hospitals. The beneficial effect of chiropractic on pain was particularly clear. Those treated by chiropractors had more further treatments for back pain after the
completion of trial treatment. Among both those initially referred from chiropractors and from hospitals more rated chiropractic helpful at three years than hospital management.
CONCLUSIONS--At three years the results confirm the findings of an earlier report that when chiropractic or hospital therapists treat patients with low back
pain as they would in day to day practice those treated by chiropractic derive more benefit and long term satisfaction than those treated by hospitals.
In Reply to: Rolfing? posted by Terrie on February 19, 1998 at 09:08:07:
From the Rolf Institute
Rolfing® structural integration is named after Dr. Ida P. Rolf, who fifty years ago called her work structural integration.
Dr. Rolf devoted her energy to creating a holistic system of soft tissue manipulation and movement education that
organized the whole body in gravity. She discovered that she could achieve remarkable changes in posture and structure
by manipulating the body's myofascial system.
"Rolfing" is the nickname that many clients gave this work.
Rolfing structural integration has an unequaled and unprecedented ability to dramatically alter a person's posture and structure. Professional athletes, dancers, children, business people, and people from all walks of life have benefited from Rolfing. People seek Rolfing as a way to ease pain and chronic stress, and improve performance in their professional and daily activities. It's estimated that more than 1 million people have received Rolfing work.
Research has demonstrated that Rolfing creates a more efficient use of the muscles, allows the body to conserve energy, and creates more economical and refined patterns of movement. research also shows that Rolfing significantly reduces chronic stress and changes in the body structure. For example, a study showed that Rolfing significantly reduced the spinal curvature of subjects with lordosis (sway back); it also showed that Rolfing enhances neurological functioning.
Hope this is a bit more helpful.
Peter
In Reply to: spinal fusion - l4-l5-s1 posted by Gerry Maki on February 19, 1998 at 16:21:24:
I had spinal fusion at L5-S1 the first time and they used Steffe Plates. These plates were never approved for use on the spine however the manufacturer marketed them for that use. The result was that in some people the plates either broke or came loose.Many people were permanently disabled because of this. Me included. My plates came loose. They also caused a Bursitis type reaction in me. I had them taken out. That was surgery #2. Less than a year later I had surgery #3 which was a repeat spinal fusion of the same area because the first fusion wasn't solid. They didn't use any instrumentation the 3rd time. I was told that they dont have to use devices or instrumentation for spinal fusions. After the fusion becomes solid there is no need for the devices to be in your body.
See what your doctor says about using no devices and ask if the doctor has researched all devices. Does he favor one in particular? If so why? Press for answers and then do your own research and get second and third opinions re: devices.
Is your doctor relying on the manufacturers hype or on personal experience? Seriously look into having no devices put in. Unfortunately with a problem such as yours, it sounds like a fusion is unavoidable but why risk being in more pain . I am worse than I was to start. Go into this surgery with your eyes open and realize that surgery is being performed to stabilize your spine to prevent further damage however it may or may not lessen your pain. You do need to start searching for answers as to what is causing your symptoms, and not totally focus on releiving the symptoms. You need to discover the cause. Good Luck
In Reply to: Re: spinal fusion - l4-l5-s1 posted by David Ferguson, D.C. on February 19, 1998 at 20:01:03:
I am an RN and a case manager. I have a patient out in Maysville, KY who is scheduled for her 4th L4-L5 disc surgery. She had sustained an injury to her back in 1995 after a low back injury in 1994. Apparently the same disc keeps herniating and it will probably be suggested that she eventually have a fusion. The surgeries she has had have given her relief of pain for only about a month or two. Right now she is experiencing right leg pain; before it was left leg pain. I think she would have been better off if she had not had any surgery in the first place. She is a heavy smoker and has had a lot of emotional problems. I think she also has a very low tolerance for pain.
I am 55 and have had DDD since I was in my thirties. I find that stretching exercises help the sciatic leg pain. I don't have any herniations but if I did I would still think twice about having any kind of back surgery. Usually people develop scar tissue after these surgeries which in itself ends up causing nerve root irritation and more pain.
In Reply to: Re: spinal fusion - l4-l5-s1 posted by Gloria Boduch on February 20, 1998 at 08:11:34:
Interesting, we've seen quite a few patients from the Maysville area over the years.(it's about 45miles away) The reason being that the popular chiropractor in that area charges about $75/office call(lot's of PT) and we only charge $18. It has made it worth while for many to make the trek, not to mention the success rate ;-) brag brag.
We are still able to see patients post surgery as long as we are aware of the exact surgical location and type.
Your statement about scar tissue is something I have never heard any Ortho or Neuro surgeon mention to even one patient. Not to metion bone proliferation from periosteal irritation.
You would think twice about surgery because you have SEEN the truth and are not dependant on what your MD says while you lay there in pain. It's damn malpractice to not suggest the most effective and least invasive procedure but that doesn't stop them from passing up everything an on to surgery.
Did you ever notice that back pain is first diagnosed as strain or sprain and then over little jumps to "surgery necessary"? How you can get from strain/sprain to surgery in a matter of weeks I will never know.
...Paul G. Shekelle, M.D., MPH, of the RAND Corporation, on ABC's 20/20 when he said,"There are considerably more randomized controlled trials which show benefit of this (chiropractic) than there are for many, many other things which physicians and neurosurgeons do all the time."
"...for the management of low-back pain, chiropractic care is the most effective treatment, and it should be fully integrated into the government's health care system."
The Manga Report, 1993.
"Chiropractic treatment was more effective than hospital outpatient management, mainly for patients with chronic or severe back pain."
British Medical Journal, 1990.
British Medical Research Council Study.
"Two and three years after patients with back pain were treated by chiropractors, they experienced far less pain than those who were treated by medical doctors."
British Medical Journal, 1990.
"...one of the unexpected findings ...looks as though the treatment that the chiropractors give does something that results in a very long-term benefit."
T. W. Meade, M.D., CBC Radio.
"The only difference that I can see is that the patients at John F. Kennedy get chiropractic manipulations. And in my
experience, the patients at J.F.K. almost without fail get out of the hospital in a week. At Lutheran, it usually takes, oh, not uncommonly, 14 days."
Per Frietag, M.D., an orthopedic surgeon, on why he prefers to admit his patients with back pain to John F. Kennedy Hospital, which has staff chiropractors, rather than Lutheran General, which does not have staff chiropractors.
So how can someone manipulating your back, massaging it and doing skilled relaxation be better than a highly trained surgeon with all his equipment and technology? I say, How can't it be better? You're body know more about your body than any person or book. The key is to unlock the healing potential. Just like keeping a cut clean you give your body the best chance it has to fix itself by chiropractic, massage, and skilled relaxation.
In Reply to: L5-S1 spinal fusion posted by Kari Cross on February 12, 1998 at 08:12:34:
Kari, I have just discovered Dr Stoll's web site, and yesterday read your messages about all the pain you had been suffering. Today I read it's been fixed. Congrats!
I am beginning to research the possibility of spinal fusion surgery. I have DDD arthritis and the lower two disks are virtually gone. I don't need to take my doc's word - I have seen the Xrays. I don't have chronic pain like you had, but only when, or some time after, a "slippage event" occurs which causes muscle spasms and nerve pinching. But recently these are happening more often and the effects lasting longer. Your doc seems to be an expert in the field and I'm wondering if he may be in the Seattle area.
I'm also wondering if someone would like to describe the logistics of the spinal fusion operation from the point of view of how long afterwards are you flat on your back and immobile, how long in the hospital, is your mobility restricted for days, weeks, or months while the bones are fusing, etc. I would think the bones would have to be immobilized by some means until the fusing gets well underway.
I have TMJ, I've been diagnosed with degenerative discs with a recommendation for spinal fusion: C56 & C45, within the last couple years I've found that I'm now grinding my teeth at night (my teeth are getting loose). All and all, its very painful! Are these three conditions related? Is it common for people to have all three conditions? Any recommendations? I don't like vicodin which has been prescribed for the pain.
In Reply to: spinal fusion/tmj posted by carolyn on February 21, 1998 at 00:10:04:
The conditions are very related. Skilled relaxation and chiropractic should serve your needs. I would bet 3:1 odds that a cervical fusion would do little for the TMJ dysfunction. There are even more things involved with the night grinding. Dr. Stoll is more knowledgable than I on the subject so I'll leave that to him. I included an excerpt about children and TMJ problems as example of the connection between the TMJ and the cervical region. And below that is a study showing the safety of cervical manipulation compared to NSAID'S(asprin, ibuprophen, etc..) let alone vicodin.
The normal physiologic tension of the TMJ muscles, fascia, ligaments, and associated structures is
critical for the health of children. Pathologic strain patterns in the soft tissues can be a primary cause
of headaches, neck aches, throat infections, ear infections, sinus congestion, and asthma. 2.
The position of the jaw and head and neck are intricately linked. The acute symptoms experienced
during the initial dental treatment phase were caused by the inability of the head and neck to adapt
to maxillary and mandibular changes. Chiropractic treatments enabled the body to respond
positively to the dental changes. As the mandibular position improved, physical testing and X-rays
indicated further improvements. 1.
1. Chinappi AS Jr, Getzoff H, The dental-chiropractic cotreatment of structural disorders of the jaw and temporomandibular joint
dysfunction., J Manipulative Physiol Ther 1995; 18(7):476-81 / Medline ID: 96093118
2. Gillespie BR; Barnes JF; Diagnosis and treatment of TMJ, head, neck and asthmatic symptoms in children. Cranio 1990; 8(4):342-9 /
Medline ID: 91275211
Manipulation Effective for Neck Pain and Safer than NSAIDS
OBJECTIVE: We reviewed the literature to evaluate the risk of serious
injury or death
resulting from cervical manipulation and to assess the evidence that
cervical manipulation is
an effective treatment for mechanical neck pain. We also reviewed the
literature to assess the
risks and effectiveness of nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs
(NSAIDs), which are often
used as the "conventional" first-line treatment for similar
musculoskeletal conditions.
DATA SOURCES: A series of Medicine literature searches were performed,
and materials
were reviewed from 1966-1994. Key words included: Chiropractic or
Orthopedic
Manipulation; Non-Steroidal Anti-Inflammatory Agents; Neck or Back
Pain; Randomized
Controlled Trials; Adverse Effects.
STUDY SELECTION: Studies and literature reviews that provided a
numerical estimate of
the risk of serious adverse effects or death from cervical manipulation
or NSAID use were
selected. Also, randomized, controlled studies that evaluated the
effectiveness of
manipulation or NSAID use for neck pain were included.
DATA SYNTHESIS: Although there are a small number of well-performed
trials of cervical
manipulation for neck pain, we were unable to locate even a single
randomized, controlled
trial examining NSAID use specifically for neck pain. As for
comparative safety, the best
available evidence indicates that NSAID use poses a significantly
greater risk of serious
complications and death than the use of cervical manipulation for
comparable conditions.
CONCLUSION: The best evidence indicates that cervical manipulation for
neck pain is
much safer than the use of NSAIDs, by as much as a factor of several
hundred times. There
is no evidence that indicates NSAID use is any more effective than
cervical manipulation for
neck pain.
Dabbs V, Lauretti WJ. A risk assessment of cervical manipulation vs
NSAIDs for the treatment of neck
pain. J Manipulative Physiol Ther 1996; 18 (8) 530-6.
"There is an epidemic of adverse drug reactions to NSAIDs. The Food and Drug Administration
believes anywhere from 10,000 to 20,000 dea
In Reply to: Re: spinal fusion - l4-l5-s1 posted by Sarah Sue on February 20, 1998 at 07:14:03:
Dear Sarah,
Thanks for the testimonial. Those who ONLY recommend surgical approaches for these kind of problems are missing the boat. The day will come soon when it will be malpractice to even suggest a sugrical approach until the patient has been evaluated by a competent pain & stress treatment center.
There are many better options from Chiropractic to Rolfing and from skilled relaxation to diet, etc.
Use the search feature provided with this BB & read everything you can find about spinal conditions like yours.
Walt
In Reply to: Re: spinal fusion - l4-l5-s1 posted by David Ferguson, D.C. on February 20, 1998 at 10:06:01:
Dear Doc Dave,
Wonderful!
Walt
In Reply to: Re: L5-S1 spinal fusion posted by Gerry Maki on February 20, 1998 at 16:03:04:
Dear Gerry,
You need to at least become aware that there are many better options than surgery for the vast majority of patients with your condition. You can always do the surgery. Remember the old adage: "To a hammer, everything looks like a nail!".
Use the search feature provided with this BB & read everything about spinal conditions frequestly surgerized.
I hope Doc Dave will jump in here. Listen to what he says.
THEN, if you still have questions, write again.
Walt
I'm so afraid of having a cervical problem. I have been in pain in all my body for about two years. After to many medical studies, one of the doctors I have seen told me that maybe I have a problem with the cervical spine.
Today I had a magnetic resonance and I will have my results on Monday February 23, 1998. I really hope that my problem is not very serious. Please advise if you know a good traumatologist in Mexico to consult about this kind of problems.
Regards,
Modesta.
TO ALL THAT SUFFER FROM THE AFTER EFFECTS OF
SPINAL FUSION YOU ARE NOT ALONE I HAD MY SURGERY
ON MARCH 14TH 1996 AND HAVE TRIED DESPERATELY TO
LIVE WITH THE PAIN THE SURGERY WAS A GREAT SUCCESS
AND I HAVE NO REGRETS L3-4-5 AND S1 ARE ALL ONE PIECE
NOW I HAVE BEEN VERY FORTUNATE TO HAVE THE SUPPORT OF MY WIFE WHOM I LOVE VERY MUCH THANKS
IF I HAD IT TO DO ALL OVER AGAIN MY ANSWER WOULD BE
YES
To all who may have any advise.
I am due for L5-S1 fusion in May of 98. I would like to have advise and information from people who has had this surgery done or who has performed it. I was very very athletic before the injury. I want to know if it is possible to return to activity such as baseball(shortstop), adult basketball(point gaurd), volleyball league, running in competition (not big serious), and doing situps and mild weightlifting for tone, like 175Lbs bench presses? I also heard that you cannot twist your body around anymore, is this true???? I would really very much appreciate any feedback on my questions.
I am having a spinal fusion done in June of this year. I have Osteogenesis Imperfecta and that has caused my severe scoliosis. I was wondering what type of bone they fuse to the spine during this procedure. Thanks.
Julie
In Reply to: Re: cervical disc fusion posted by Collin Hermreck on February 03, 1998 at 20:06:39:
I have had c5-6, c6-7 removed and fused with pelvic bone. best thing i could have done. that was 7 years ago. after the recovery period i experienced no further problems, outside of damp weather irritation. while the surgery seems so risky, the fear of permanent nerve damage is worse in my opinion. i have some dead spots and would give anything to have the feeling back. i waited eight months before i told anyone i couldn't feel my fingers. i would say jump in, make a splash, heal and get on with living life to the fullest. i was given a 'forbid' list of activities after surgery, and there was not one thing on that list that i felt the need to do anyhow, ie, rollerblading, motorcycling, surfing, and the like. let me know how you are doing, if you need a friend. I cam currently facing this same surgery again due to an auto accident where c3-4 and c4-5 have been compromised. so we have something in common. i have tried the conservative methods to fix the problem, to no avail. i should know tomorrow the what and when of surgery options. i will run with it so that i can get on with my life as i did in the past. it stinks, dont get me wrong, but better to get it behind you. i find that the anticipation is sooo much worse thatn the actual event! if you believe in prayer, do that, helps me. seek support from folks like me and from your family. that helps too. you can conquer this! my thoughts are with you. take care...lisa
In Reply to: Re: L5-S1 spinal fusion posted by Gerry Maki on February 20, 1998 at 16:03:04:
In regards to your letter to me. The spasms that you are talking about I also had and they got so bad that I only got 2 hours of sleep at a time. YOu should weigh all your options and try everything before you do surgery, I went through alot and then did alot of research and then was told that it might not work. SO far so good. I was in the hospital for only 2 days, and they had me walking right after the surgery. They went through my abdomen and used cadavar bones plus grafted my hip bone to give the cadavar bones a jump start. When I came home there were no restrictions and I was not flat on my back. I went up and down stairs and everything. I just can't bend and twist right now and it has been just over 2 weeks. If I need to pick something up off the ground I go down slowly with my legs doing all the work not my back. Dr. said 3 months of taking it easy, and 6 months for fusion to actually fuse. Last night was the first night since surgery, that I was completely pain free, and I am referring to my incison not my back I have had no spasms or back pain what so ever since the surgery. I am located in Michigan and so is my doctor if that helps you. Email me if you have any more questions and good luck to you. Kari
In Reply to: Re: L5-S1 spinal fusion posted by Regina Angelin on February 19, 1998 at 10:24:11:
upcoming surgery had discectmy and laminectomy last august worse now than ever need as much input on fusion as possible had 2 epidurals which didnt take only numbed me from waste to toes so i couldnt walk also have massive scar tissue and new cist in area please reply thanks Mark
i would like to hear about different type of fusions people have had and what recovery and success was like
thanks Mark
In Reply to: Re: L5-S1 spinal fusion posted by WAYNE on February 22, 1998 at 00:06:24:
could you share a little bit about what type of fusion you had and what the recovery process and success was i would welcome a call 302-3285352--- collect please
thanks mark
Dear Frank, Recently had cervical fusion C6-7 on 1/27/98 after sustaining skiing accident three years ago.
Would like to know how you are feeling? Are you still experiencing any pain? My symptoms of numbness, tingling, pain in right shoulder blade area and right hand weakness have all subsided, but I still am experiencing moderate pain in the nape of my neck. I had an anterior approach with banked bone graft. I am still in a soft cervical collar. I'm trying to decide if this pain is normal at this point in my recovery. I do have a bulging disc at C5-6 which was not fused as I was not experiencing enough symptoms to warrent fusion at that level. Any input would be appreciated.
Dear Doc, On 1/27/98 I had a cervical fusion C6-7 after a skiing accident in 1995. Symptoms had grown worse in mid to late 1997 involving the right arm, shoulder and hand.
I also had mild burning pain in the upper left arm prior to surgery. MRI showed Right-sided disc protrusion at C6-7 and broad-based disc protrusion at C5-6 lateralizing toward the left lateral recess. C5-6 was identing the thecal sac without cord abutment/no stenosis of foramin. C6-7 indenting sac and abutting cord in right lateral recess/no stenosis. EMG was done on the right only due to the complaint of right sided symptoms. My question is in regards to the burning pain I still am experiencing in the upper left arm. Should C5-6 have been fused also? My M.D. was questioned regarding this and his decision was that C6-7 be fused only at this time due to the fact that the more discs fused, the decrease chance of success. When told of the ongoing pain in left arm, he stated he hoped it was muscular and would subside with the healing process. I am currently four weeks post-op and the pain as well as numbness in the upper arm during the night persists. Any input would be appreciated. All symptoms on the right have subsided to my delight.
In Reply to: Re: cervical disc fusion posted by Gary on February 03, 1998 at 20:54:38:
I have a question there was question about how the disc under and above a fusion about excess wear . Is this as much in a one level or is more so with two or more levels .
Thank You J. Barnett
In Reply to: Re: L5-S1 spinal fusion posted by WAYNE on February 22, 1998 at 00:06:24:
Dear Wayne,
Congratulations for being one of the successful 1/3rd.
NOW is the time for you to become a student of why these kind of things happen so you don't have to go through something similar in the future.
Walt
In Reply to: L5-S1 spinal fusion posted by Kari Cross on February 12, 1998 at 08:12:34:
In 1991 I had L4 & L5 disk removed and a spinal fusion done.....It has helped me tremendously, and would do it again, if I ever needed it......I had chronic back pain for almost 5 years and then in the winter of 90, it was at point that some days, I would literally have to crawl to get where I was going......Since the surgery, I feel much better and am able to do just about any activity with ease and no pain.....My surgery was 7 1/2 hours long, and they had me up walking the next day....I went thru one month of physical therapy and returned to work just 94 days after my surgery.......
In Reply to: spinal fusion posted by Julie on February 22, 1998 at 16:30:56:
Dear Julie,
No one knows, yet, how to change the genetics that causes your terrible condition.
HOWEVER, there is no doubt that you could help yourself greatly by learning an effective skilled relaxation technique and practicing it at least 20 minutes twice a day (never within 2 hours of retiring). There is no way that this could harm you. If you have not already been taught this technique, & told to practice it at least this often, you need to change to enlightened physicians who know better.
Walt
I'm scheduled for surgery march 18 for fussion of c4,c5,c6
I'm concerned because the pain and numbnes in my index finger and hand also could be carple tunnel symdrom.
The pain and tingeling is on the top of the index finger and knuckle and goes over the top ofmy hand. Is this a common sympton of disc problems...I've mentioned this several times to the nurses and doctors and none seems to address it
In Reply to: Re: cervical disc fusion posted by Star P. on February 23, 1998 at 18:28:08:
Dear Star,
By far the most important thing you could do right now to help this heal would be to learn an effective skilled relaxation technique & practice it at least 20 minutes twice a day (never within 2 hours of retiring). It would help your pain AND increase your chances of this being a successful operation in the long run.
Walt
In Reply to: Re: L5-S1 spinal fusion posted by Bev on February 24, 1998 at 12:42:42:
Dear Bev,
Congratulations on being one of the 1/3 who get benefits. However, if you "ever had to do it again, if I ever needed it" your % chance would be lessened. Each surgery has fewer positive results.
NOW is the time for you to become a student of this process so you can do something about why you are susceptible to this kind of problem. Use the search feature provided with this BB & read everything you can find about spinal problems frequently surgerized. You wil learn some things that are vital to you whether you know it yet or not.
I know that you would like to put all of your history behind you & never think about it about it again. However, the chances that your bodymind will let you do that are very small since the surgery did NOTHING about WHY you had what you had.
Walt
I had a fusion over five years ago and sometimes it acts up-when the barometric pressure changes significantly. I usually take an antiinflamatory and excercise at least every day. It helps.
Dear Jamie:
I am a 32 year old female who underwent the same procedure on C4-5, C5-6 in 1994 when I was 28. My x-husband ruptured 4 discs, C3-7 when he came home drunk one night. I fought long and hard with the excruciating pain, missed work, seen a Chiropractor, which manipulated my neck and made me so I couldn't move my head for 2 weeks. I am not saying not to see one, have an MRI in hand when you do!
I then seen a D.O. which tried everything from Pain therapy to Physical therapy with no avale. In August of '94 they took out disc fragments from 4-5 and 5-6 and fused the section with my own bone graft. I did fine up until about 4 months ago, the pain returned, down my left arm instead of my right, and I now have a different insurance that I can't see the same doctor. I have had a MRI and CT this pst week which show big bone spurs pressing on my thecal sac and narrowing of the column. Also, small HNP's of 3 & 7.
I go to see another Neuro on Tuesday and and think I would rather go through continuous child labor as apposed to the pain that has returned. This will be a second opinion because the first Neuro didn't want to reconstruct it.
My advice to you is: 1. Get copies of ALL your records to keep for yourself.
2. Have copies made of your films
3. Consider all alternatives (I am contemplating acupuncture)
4. Get as much information on the C-Spine as you can, and Know what exactly is going on with your neck. I have studied all about the condition and now I am researching what can be done and their success rates.
If you find out any info you care to shae, let me know, and I will do likewise.
You are not alone, I can feel the constant pain right along with you!
Sincerely,
Holleycat@aol.com
In Reply to: what should I be doing? School Question posted by David on February 24, 1998 at 15:02:31:
David,
Regarding a career in chiropractic. The school I went to was Palmer College in Davenport, IA. www.palmer.edu for more info on them. Not saying that other schools aren't good but you can get more info about requirements and what not from there.
There are a set number of prerequisites such as inorganic and organic chemistries, physics, biologies, etc..that make up the basic minimum for entry. 60 hours bare bones minimum. Most have a bachelors or very close to and many states now require that you have one before you can practice there.
School is difficult I'm not going to make it sound easy. You take 30hrs a semester for 10 semesters. Biochemistry, Gross Anatomy, Neuro Anatomy, Spinal Anatomy, Toxicology and even PT ;) No D's or F's allowed. Only A's B's and C's are passing grades. Fortunately everyone else is doing the same thing as you and you depend on each other.
Chiropractic is based on a strong philosophy that the power that made the body can heal the body. Drugs and surgery should be secondary to correcting the human frame allowing the nervous system to work unimpinged healing.
The one thing I would have to say to you is that I would never be anything else and that PT is a dead end street. There are more and more studies every day that show PT for the average guy is not even remotely cost effective. For the athlete it may be a different story. The business of a PT is very dependent on the family physician. Not a place to be. Just ask Dr. Stoll. Even many D.C.'s are steering away from physical therapy as the efficacy is shown to be less than originally thought.
If it were me and I was looking at employment in the new millennium I would look past sports therapy and PT to other alternative care fields or as you said Health education and PE.
I just couldn't endorse the choice of PT with the trends the way they are. The cost/benefit ratio WILL NOT hold up with managed care. Which is what they are riding on now. Out of pocket payment is impossible when you can go down the street to a chiropractor for half they price and get the same thing + much much more.
I have enclosed a study from the British Medical Journal regarding just Low Back Pain. The patients who went the medical route received PT and even PT manipulation along with the medical treatment as noted in the "intervention".
If you have ANY other questions regarding chiropractic please let me know.
Spinal Manipulation Effective in Low Back Pain
OBJECTIVE--To compare chiropractic and hospital outpatient treatment for managing low back pain of mechanical origin.
DESIGN--Randomised controlled trial. Allocation to chiropractic or hospital management by minimisation to establish groups for analysis of results according to initial referral clinic, length of current episode, history, and severity of back pain. Patients were followed up for up two years.
SETTING--Chiropractic and hospital outpatient clinics in 11 centres.
PATIENTS--741 Patients aged 18-65 who had no contraindications to manipulation and who had not been treated within the past month.
INTERVENTIONS--Treatment at the discretion of the chiropractors, who used chiropractic manipulation in most patients, or of the hospital staff, who most commonly used Maitland mobilisation or manipulation, or both.
MAIN OUTCOME MEASURES--Changes in the score on the Oswestry pain disability questionnaire and in the results of tests of straight leg raising and lumbar flexion.
RESULTS--Chiropractic treatment was more effective than hospital outpatient management, mainly for patients with chronic or severe back pain. A benefit of about 7% points on the Oswestry scale was seen at two years. The benefit of chiropractic treatment became more evident throughout
the follow up period. Secondary outcome measures also showed that chiropractic was more beneficial.
CONCLUSIONS--For patients with low back pain in whom manipulation is not contraindicated chiropractic almost certainly confers
In Reply to: Torn miniscus posted by Bernard Dichek on February 25, 1998 at 05:18:22:
Dear Bernard,
Your susceptibility to this problem has been understood for more than 40 years. I hope Doc Dave jumps in here to help. I would suggest you not try something else until you learn a lot more. Learn about Rolfing, Bracing, Chiropractic and the regular practice of skilled relaxaion.
You could learn a lot by using the search feature provided fir this BB and read everything you can find about bracing, fibromyositis, arthritis, spinal problems---actually anything structural about the body.
THEN, if you still have questions, write again.
Walt
In Reply to: Re: cervical disc fusion posted by dee on February 25, 1998 at 13:19:36:
Dear Dee,
Both conditions are caused by very similar mechanisms. I hope Doc Dave will jump in here & share his expertise. in the long run, the regular practice of skilled relaxation is the most important thing you can do. To get immediate results, I would recommend Chiropractic and Rolfing. Just getting a deep, whole-body therapeutic massage 3 times a week for 2 weeks would give you so much relief you might just put off your surgery till these other approaches have a chance to work. YOU CAN ALWAYS HAVE THE SURGERY!
If you would use the search feature provided with this BB, & read everything you can find about spinal problems frequently surgerized (even though the world medical literature ALL says that other approaches are more effecrtive, safer and less expensive), you would get a real education about your options--as well as the testimonials of people like you who have done many different options.
THEN, if you have more questions, write again.
Let us know how you do.
Walt
In Reply to: Re: Spinal Fusion, Vicodin and CMO posted by michael on February 13, 1998 at 15:01:58:
I have been taking Vicodin for back pain for over a year. I had a diskectomy and got a staph infection (there was staph on my face, but the doctors operated anyway) in my spine. I have gone down to one or two Vicodin (ES) a day because I was told I would become addicted to it. I don't think it is addicting as long as people are not taking it unless they have severe pain. I am told I need an anterior fusion, but I am afraid of getting an infection again. I also would like to find out if anyone has ever had the incredibly severe spasms I had in my back while I had the infection. It must be the most painful thing in the world.
Vicodin is very addicitve. You cannot say if you have taken
this drug for more than a year, that it is not addicitve.
Come on tell the truth !!
I have degenerative disc desease at L4-5 and L5-S1. An MRI revealed sponylosis and an minimal annular tear at L4-5. My Dr. indicated that the disc at L5_S1 picked up very little signal and is "pretty much worn out". I have slight pain, occassionally stabbing. in the mid low back. Some ache in the left buttock. My left foot is numb and extremely sore, mostly on the outter side, but freguently heel and some toes. The pain, numbness, etc is greatly aggravated by sitting. I have taken naprosyn, had an epidural 10 days ago and am under going aggressive physical therapy. No relief. My lifestyle was active. Wind Surfer!! What should I do next. Try another epidural? Bed rest? I've been told fusion is the only surgical option. I am capable of doing whatever physical therapy is neccesary. I want to be able to sit and do some of the activities I did before. I will give up running(ran marathon in July), but very much wish to be able to play with my two adolescent sons and windsurf(albiet less vigoursly). This flare up is 3 months old and hasn't improved. Any help would be greatly appreciated. G.G.
In Reply to: MS or what? posted by Laura McKenzie on February 28, 1998 at 09:42:05:
Chiropractic, deep massage, skilled relaxation.
The correlation between these treatments and resolving your problems are very signifcant.
Upper cervical spinal dysfunction regularly gives all of the symptoms you describe.
My name is Sue and I am scheduled for an anterior cervical discectomy fushion on 3/20/98 at C6-7. I am very scared but the numbness is scarier. How are you making out now? Are there any tips you can give me regarding recuperating?
I MUST HAVE SURGERY TOMORROW FOR A RUPTURE AT C56 AND ALSO A HERNIATION AT C45
HE IS GOING TO BREAK MY HIP FOR THE REPLACEMENTS. MY QUESTION IS THIS. IS IT TRUE THE FUSION WILL NOT TAKE PLACE IF I SMOKE. MY DR. IS VERY VERY AGINST SMOKING ANY TIME BUT THERE ARE STILL SOME OF US OUT HERE THAT NOT ONLY HAVE THE HABIT BUT ENJOY IT. HE SAYS IT WILL NOT FUSE IF I SMOKE.
Dear Ken,
You are my favorite kind of guy! You are willing to learn & to do.
The one thing (which, unfortunately is the main keystone in proventing progression & recurrence of this problem) I see that is missing is the regular practice of an effective skilled relaxation technique.
It MAY be too late for this to prevent surgery (I don't think so from what you have said.) but, even if it IS, your practice of effective skilled relaxation would be the most important factor for your postoperative recovery & prevention of ever going back through this again.
With all you have done for yourself already, I wouldn't even consider going to any other P&STC than the best in the world in Springfield, Missouri. The founder and still medical director is Norm Shealy, MD, PhD who started the entire concept. If there is any center closer to you (that knows what they are doing) they would know. They are so successful that they have a several month waiting list & people from all over the world coming there. If there is anyone closer to you, they certainly are going to tell you. They do not need the business. Call (417) 865-5940.
There, you would also get the best opinion available about whether your condition has progressed to the point where surgery IS necessary. Dr Shealy has been one of the top neurosurgeons in the country for more than 30 years. You at least deserve a consultation by him; or anyone who he would recommend connected with a P&STC>
Let us know how you do. If you have not been Rolfed yet, you might consider that to give you more time before having to do anything else.
Let us know how you do.
Walt
In Reply to: FUSION AND SMOKING posted by TAMI ALLRED on February 01, 1998 at 22:24:58:
Dear Tami,
Are you aware that when a person "lights up" that their blood starts to glow (fluoresce)?
Do you know that the one thing that stimulates the most free radicals (that we know of so far) is smoking?
Are you aware that the body's ability to heal is based a lot on how well it can control the free radicals caused by the injury (surgery is an injury)?
Your doc is right! Smoking will give you the best chance you can have of your surgery being a failure. Why would anyone who knows the facts ever smoke until at least 6 months after such a procedure? Who in their right mind would start smoking after 6 months of abstainence?
I can remember smoking too. I was a 2 pack a day smoker who LOVED to smoke. I quit cold turkey more than 30 years ago. For years after that I would lust after a cigarette for a few minutes every several weeks.
Slow suicide is what smoking is. Even if you don't get cancer, emphysema, heart attack ulcers or stroke, etc., it accelerates aging at least 10%.
By any measure we know, the metabolic tests of aging show a pack a day smoker is 66 years old at age 60, 55 years old at 50, etc. Facial wrinkling is more than 20% faster in women who smoke.
Antioxidents, in large doses (free radical scavengers) can help blunt some of this.
You are the master of your fate.
Walt
Dear Christina,
Since I learned that there were alternatives to scoliosis, and stopped referring all my patients to the orthopedist for bracing & possible surgery, I have not had one case that did not respond wonderfully to a combination of Rolfing and the regular practice of skilled relaxation. Sometimes Chiropractic would speed up the progress.
Of course, the healthier a person is, the quicker they responded to the therapy. A perfectly unrefined diet, along with a gentle walking program--when associated with the skilled relaxation mentioned above reversed the problem within 6-12 months. Their symptoms were MUCH improved within a month.
Walt
I have constant back pain. I have arthritis and it seems to settle in my back when I do any lifting. I take indocin for general inflammination but it doesn"t seem to help the back. I thinking about purchasing a magnetic brace. Do magnets help inflammination in the back. Thank you for your help.
In Reply to: Magnets for back pain posted by Larry Popson on February 08, 1998 at 11:01:25:
Dear Larry,
Yes they CAN be a big help if used correctly. Magnetic medicine is a part of the "Vibrational Medicine" presently predicted to be the medicine of the 21st century. You would be wise to read Richard Gerber, MD's book by that name. It has just been reprinted as a new edition.
However, none of us think that arthritis is a "deficiency of magnetic fields" (grin). There are many other factors you need to know about to finally resolve this kind of condition.
My book discusses these factors in a way that anyone can understand them (link below).
Once you have the above information under your belt, if you still have questions, write again.
Walt
In Reply to: Re: irregular heartbeat- painful ribs posted by Alice Davis, NY on February 11, 1998 at 20:31:42:
So what you are saying is that the emergency room Dr., his regular physician, whomever did the stress test, and the physicians who have him scheduled for monitoring have not already diagnosed cardiac arrythmia?
Studies by:
Egli AB. Spine and heart: Vertebrogenous cardiac syndromes. _Ann Swiss Chiro Ass._ 1965; 95-105
Tran TA, Kirby JD. The effects of upper cervical adjustment on the normal physiology of the heart. _J Am Chiro Assoc_ 1977; s59-s62
have shown the somatoviceral disorder of cardiac arrhytmia to respond to chiropractic care. Based on this there is no contraindication to persuing this avenue.
Hopefully with the compliment of chiropractic care, NOT the alternative, the solution to this problem can be achieved.
As you stated this can "eventually" become serious. So it's not an emergency situation and affords the luxury of persuing chiropractic as an adjunct, again not an alternative.
You also stated "Injuries especially sports injuries can cause inflammation in the bones and joint areas." I am unfamiliar with bone inflammation but know that chiropractic and joint inflammation have a long and well documented history of success. If you have any info on bone inflammation please pass it along. I only know of it in forms that present with certain types of cancer.
Years ago, I was diagnosed with Thoracic Outlet syndrome. This was based completely on the symptoms. A week ago Friday, I fell while walking my dogs and my back hurt so badly I couldn't breath. We decided to wait until Monday to see my primary care physician. He took back xrays and got the results on Thursday.(4 DAYS!!!!) Now here is the parts I don't understand..He said that in my thoracic spine, I have three compressed disc fractures.(he numbered them for