Dear Mark,
By far the most effective way is for you to start doing those things that would have prevented your present situation in the first place. Use the archives provided with this BB & read everything related to your painful condition.
As your causes are dealt with your reasons for having pain will also disappear. In the meantime, the more pain you have, the more effective self-hypnosis would be.
THEN, if you still have questions, write again.
Walt
Dear Denny,
Use the archives feature for this BB & read everything you can find about spinal conditions frequently surgerized.
THEN, if you still have questions, write again.
Walt
Dear Sherri,
See my note to Denny.
Since you now have to cope with the problems of the first surgery, it is possible that you will need to have more surgery to do that.
However, all of the things that would have prevented the first surgery are still valid & can cause you no harm. If your present doc knows his stuff, he will know that any of these alternatives would improve his chances of being successful with any more surgery even though it might just avoid the need for more surgery altogether.
Walt
Dear Jim,
Since you already know more about this than your present docs, why the devil are you still paying them for advice? I am not kidding! Any profesional who says that dizzyness is not part of this syndrome has to be intentionally ignorant OR the certificates on the wall are fake!
Doc Dave can give you better advice, right here on this BB without even seeing you. If he has not responded to you within a few days send your note again with his name in the title to draw his attention. He just came back from vacation so he is really busy.
In the meantime, use the archives service for this BB and read everything you can find about spinal conditions frequesntly surgerized.
THEN, if you still have questions, write again.
Walt
Hi I have had surgery of the L4 disc removed were the herniated part , Now the same disc has herniated again now my Primary Doctors is going to suggest to the surgon that he fusses the disk . Now my question will this remove the pain and numbness I am getting Thank you for reading this and I would appreciate you answer to my question Tony Petraccone, Masssussetts
In Reply to: Disc Fusion posted by Tony on May 02, 1998 at 21:37:45:
Your Primary Dr. knows nothing of what is actually CAUSING the problem. The disc doesn't just buldge for no reason.
Chiropractic and Skilled Relaxation. Surgery last.
The Av-Med Study
This study included 80 patients, each of whom was previously treated by a medical doctor and subsequently referred to the
Silverman Chiropractic Center. Of these 80 patients, 21 % had been diagnosed with disc problems, 5% received emergency
room treatment and 12% had been diagnosed as requiring surgery.
Following chiropractic treatment, no surgery was required. 86% needed no further treatment at all. And the projected
savings on the patient study group was approximately $250,000.
The Av-Med Study, 1993.
In Reply to: Re: Disc Fusion posted by David Ferguson, D.C. on May 02, 1998 at 23:31:16:
Dear Tony,
I don't know all the complications of your herniated disc. All I can tell you is what happened to me. I picked up my son who weighed around 80 lbs. and injured my back. The pain
became worse and worse and finally I had an MRI and there was a little arthritis near the L1 or L2 disc and the disc was herniated. I had alot of pain. It was very difficult to walk and to function. I had many muscle spasms etc. The nerve running down my leg did hurt at times too. I can't remember if there was numbness.
Anyway, I read a book written by a surgeon who said that the discs can shrink and repair on there own in time and that usually after 2 years the pain can subside. I did not want surgery and there was no need for it to save a nerve so I waited. It was painful and I used ice and heat to help it along. Also the surgeon wrote that those who were careful with the back area and did not lift anything over 15 lbs. were more apt to heal. He HIGHLY recommended against surgery unless it was absolutely necessary and then he recommend finding the very best surgeon you can find. He wrote that the sometimes the surgery is successful but sometimes there is more pain after the surgery.
Well, it has now been 5 years and I don't have any back pain. I learned about taking care of my back and how not to further aggravate it.
I imagine that if I used skilled relaxation and had chiropractic care I probably would have healed sooner. I did not know about the benefits of that at the time. Physical therapy made it feel worse in the beginning. I stopped going. I don't know if that was a good choice or not. I did some stretches and exercises later when my back did not hurt as much. Mainly, I stopped doing ANYTHING that made it hurt more. This really helped me. After it began healing, I slowly added those activities back into my life. It hurt when I bent over so I asked others to pick things up or I did so very carefully and slowly. It hurt when I vacuumed so I had my husband do it. I bought a lighter vacuum so now I can vacuum again.
I read this year that most people's back pain improves dramatically after 2 years without surgery. Mine began to feel much better after 1 year and then after 2 years it had greatly improved. I read about back care and this helped me very much.
I don't know if my experience will be of help to you or not. It took patience but I am fine now. I had to learn to take better care of myself and my back.
I wish you healing.
peace and love,
pamela
Hi - I'm looking for information. I had a horse riding accident years ago resulting in a crush fracture to mid thoracic vertebra. Anyway I lost half disc height at the time, and now the disc is practically gone and I get dreadful facet joint pain. I recently started taking slow release ibuprofen 75mg which really helps but will it deteriorate furrrther?
I really wish to avoid spinal fusion, from what I've been told about it. But I have heard about new techniques involving laser and micro surgery, both of which are much less invasive than conventional bone-sawing.
Any information would be very gratefully received.
Maureen Luchini.
i would like any advice or help that any person, medical or not can give me. over a year ago i had a 3 level anterior fusion (c2-3,c4-5,c5-6)with donor "bone", plate and 3 screws. this was due to serious stenosis with symptoms and mri confirming herniation and degeneration. 3 weeks after the surgery the bottom screw broke the vertebra that it was placed in shifting the whole fusion (bone and appliance) forward. i have fusion at the top and bottom levels, psueudarthrosis in the middle. one surgeon wants to "fix" it, the same surgeon who "carelessly placed the screw on the edge of the vertebra, another surgeon says worse damage may occur with a "corrective" surgery, and my pain management physician recommends a morphine drip to deal with the ongoing severe pain. i have radiating pain down both arms intermittently, constant inflammation and swelling, and my the skin over my upper trapezius muscles is becomming discolored. i awake with numbness in both hands, but for the first fifteen minutes i am fairly pain free. can anyone offer any suggestions as to my course of action? i appreciate any and all responses.
thanks ever so much.
deb berlin
Hi Dr. Stoll:
On January 23, 1997 I had a 3-level cervical fusion performed (C2-3, C4-5, C5-6). I had a donor "bone" and plate and 3 screws (anterior fusion). This surgery was necessary due to serious stenosis which may or may not have been the result of injuries, one recent, the other 10+ years ago, one disc herniated, the other 2 seriously degenerated. Three weeks or so, the screw in the vertebra under the C6 disc broke the vertebra, shifting the who fusion forward at an angle with the bottem thrust forward about 1/2" or more. A tomogram shows I am fused at the upper and lower levels with pseudarthrosis in the middle, and teh screw sitting in the C6 disc. I am in constant agonizing radicular pain, with swelling, and inflammation present. The skin over my upper trapezius is becomming mottled in appearance and warm to the touch (RSD?) My original surgeon wants to take the plate and screws out and grind down the projected bone and another surgeon says even more serious damage could occur with surgery. I have had physical therapy, acupuncture, biofeedback, and psychiatric treatment for the pain. I am relatively pain free for the first hour upon awakening with the pain increasing intensity as the day goes on, but my hands are completely numb for the first 10 minutes. I am taking oral narcotics, muscle relaxants, and xanax to sleep. My pain management physician recommends a trial of a morphine drip. I am now terrified of even that surgical procedure to implant the drip. Can you "educate" me in any manner. I would appreciate it extremely. Thank you. Deb Berlin
In Reply to: failed cervical fusion posted by deb berlin on May 05, 1998 at 01:01:50:
Get an attorney. There is a legal obligation for that Dr to have done something conservative prior to surgery. Look at the informed consent. Were you aware that this could happen? Was the surgery negligent? Obtain copies of your post op films as they may show how the screw into C6 was "crooked".
That stenosis is a big area of contraversy. Swelling due to joint dysfunction, spinal misalignment, severe muscle contraction, etc.. can all cause, or mimic, spinal stenosis.
I am certainly no advocate for litigation of health care professionals but this is just one more case that Dr. Stoll and I have talked about. It's a crime what has been done to you.
As for advice on your neck I have little. Skilled relaxation techniques will probably give you some relief. Get several opinions from NEURO surgeons and not just orthopedic surgeons.
Best of luck and get angry about what has happened to you. It is not fair.
Gerry, I had my spinal fusion surgery done in Seattle by Dr. Paul Schwaegler at Orthopedics International. They are located next door to Providence Hospital.
In Reply to: Re: spinal fusion patients please respond posted by Maureen Luchini on May 04, 1998 at 13:54:06:
Dear Maureen,
You are out of my depth here. My initial thought is that you are one of the few people who probably need surgery as a first option. So far as what kind of surggery, if it were me, I would get about 3 opinions & go with what YOU decide.
Doc Dave MAY have some other ideas & I would look forward to learning from him.
Walt
Beth- I'm SO happy to hear that you are doing well after your fusion. PLEASE tell me you are still recooperating and doing well! I am supposed to have surgery in June, with titanium cages at L5-S1. I'm scared to death. I'm in constant pain now, and am functioning at about 30%, so I figure I don't have much to lose by going through the surgery. But, after hearing all the horror stories, I'm having doubts. I stay loaded on Vicodin most of the time to make the pain bearable so I can keep working, but I don't want to be a "34 year old junkie with a backache." Somebody PLEASE tell me spinal fusion can be a Good thing, and that Not Everybody has to have 2,3 and 4 surgeries only to be doomed to a life of even more unbearable pain. Am I just fooling myself? ..Robin
Hello,
I had L4-L5,L5-S1 anterior fusion using the fusion cages. I never before had any legs symptoms. 5 months post op I started having "severe" leg aches. It starts down the front of my thighs. It then travels to the outside of my lower legs. It is always bi-lateral. MRI shows no problems.They have no answers. I have done ironman triathlons before. I have never experianced this degree of aches in my legs.I have tried exercise when they hurt. It only helps for 10 minutes. I have people dig at my legs with their hands to the point they bruise my legs. Vicodin helps, I only take it after work. I tried Elavil at night. It zonked me to bad. I would appreciate any suggestions you might have. I am a detective and must get back to full duty soon or else... Thank You :)
Dear Walt,
I am more than a year post op (12/97). I continue with severe pain and the inabilty to ambulate in a normal manner. I have to take small steps and walk slowly. I have had 2 laminectomies, one at L5-S1 in Aug 95 and one at L4-L5 in Dec 95. In the Dec. 95 surgery a great deal of scar tissue had to be removed from around the nerve root at L5 and scar tissue removal from the disc. Any type of physical activity seems to increase my pain. I have been through physical therapy multiple times. I have had epidural steriods multiple times and refuse to have my brain bathed in steroids any more. I have had trigger point injections etc.,etc.,etc!!!!! I have had acute depression and have finally almost completely recovered from that. I am looking for answers because no one seems to know what to do with me anymore. I have had a recent MRI and a recent complete Lumbar Spine series done. None of which showed anything new. My doctor states that my condition seems to be getting worse. I have symptoms no one has heard of before. I do have nerve damage at the L5 nerve root but both legs seem to hurt at about the same level of pain. I have been unable to return to my job as an ER nurse.
In Reply to: Spinal fusion 7 mo ago problems with severe leg aches posted by Lorie on May 06, 1998 at 12:33:44:
Lorie, I had spinal fusion 11 weeks ago and still
experience aching/burning/weakness especially going up
the stairs. I had anterior "BAK" method done. I have
been extremly upset..when they graft the bone they
severed a nerve and now i have no skin feeling between
hip and knee..i am currently taken darvacet for pain
usually take 1 every 4 hrs. but lately ive been taken two
this takes away the pain pretty well and find myself
feeling ok..till it wares off..i too am in extream pain
and i used to swim 1 mile a day, now i dont..since i am
only 3 months post op....i wonder what my next step be
oh thats L5,S1 fusion..done in feb 16, 1998..it is
finally nice to respond to someone that has almost what
i have...take care and God bless..denny
In Reply to: Re: cervical disc fusion posted by deborah berlin on May 05, 1998 at 00:46:03:
Dear Deborah,
So long as your present "medical consultants" maintain the fiction that surgery is the first line of defence, you will continue with your present dilemma. "To a hammer, everything looks like a nail."
Use the archives feature for this BB and read everything (including the references suggested) you can find about spinal conditions frequently surgerized.
Walt
THEN, if you still have questions write again.
Walt
I had this surgery in 1992 and i am still suffering a tremendous amount of pain and ai also aquired a dropped foot that i did not have before i am now disabled and require crutches and a wheelchair and i would strongly advise anyone to think very carefully before having this surgery
hi dr stoll i am in the u.k. but i have had two spinal fusions one at L5 S1 and one cervical fusion i am still not any better five years on why are these ops done if there is very little success i have read through your page on spinal fusion and every person seems to complain about the same problems that i am also suffering i am reliant on elbow crutches inside and a wheelchair outside i never expected to ever be in this position are there any answers you can give me from joan green
I had two surgeries done on my back in March of 1998. And I am concerned that my doctor is not telling me everything. I had the first surgery on a Monday which was a normal lamectonmy (removing part of the herniated disk). The next day I was experiencing extreme amount of pain in my back. So we had an MRI done and the doctor said that we had to have another sugery (thursday) and have a fusion done.
Its been about 2 months or so and the pain is still bad in my back. And now I am hearing rumors that I might have to have another surgery in about 5 years. Since I only had rear fusion.
Please give me some advice. Is this doctor right? Is this rumor true? Was this malpractice? Is this nightmere over yet?
Thank you for your time!
Stacy (age 19)
In Reply to: Re: cervical disc fusion posted by Walt Stoll on May 07, 1998 at 08:15:16:
i will do as you suggested and look into the archives although i don't consider this recent, do you? 1/22/97 surgery date, screw broke and shifted approximately 2/5/97...it is fused at the top and bottom in the wrong position with pseudarthrosis in the middle. with a chunk of metal (the bottom screw) in the disc causing nerve pain, and constant muscle guarding and inflammation, and pressure on my esophagus and larynx from the misplacement, and swelling due to the whole foreign object of the titanium plate and donor bone, what possible option could i even have besides surgery to get all that stuff out of there. it is the presence of all the foreign material in all the wrong places causing the problem. know what i mean?
thanks again, deb
In Reply to: Re: Spinal fusion 7 mo ago problems with severe leg aches posted by Denny on May 07, 1998 at 05:52:05:
Dear Lori & Denny,
Use the archives feature for this bb & read everything you can find about spinal conditions frequently surgerized. Be sure to read the references listed.
THEN, when you have more questions, write again.
Walt
In Reply to: Spinal fusion and pedicle screws posted by Joan Snyder on May 06, 1998 at 23:18:51:
Dear Joan,
Have you gone to the archives section for this bb? If not, you need to do so. Read EVERYTHING you can find about spoinal conditions frequently surgerized. You will not resolve this depending on surgeons telling you what you should think or do.
YOU are going to have to become the expert in this. With your background in conventional medicine, it will be harder for you than someone outside the profession. You will have to become like it says in the bible "as a little child" & start over. I did it & so can you.
Once you have that much information about this (read the references too) please ask any more questions you might have. It took me many years to see through the veil of allopathic medicine being the answer for everything. I do not expect you will do it in a day, a week, or a month.
Walt
After years of back and leg pain and much pain medication,I had a fusion done. This was accomplished on October 7, 1997.
Before submitting to surgery I had a 2nd opinion from a neuro-surgeon. An orthpedic surgeon did the operation.
I was off work for three months,wore a chair back brace with a leg extension during this time. The day after surgery I was up and walking. Within in a week could do a 1/2 mile.
Today I feel real good. I can do all the normal fun things,mow yard rake leaves ect. It is important to follow the doctors advise without fail. Wear the brace walk and exercise your back.I am 55 years old and sometimes I feel older,but all in all,so far,so good.
In Reply to: Spinal fusion 7 mo ago problems with severe leg aches posted by Lorie on May 06, 1998 at 12:33:44:
Dr. Stoll,
Thank you so much for your help. My doctor put me on a medicine called, "Neurontin". I found this in the previous articles people had written. The first 4 days I felt no relief. I then as instructed by the doctor increaaed the dose. Wow yesterday was the first day of relief its wonderful. I will no longer need any pain medicine as this has helped. No more putting my legs in buckets of ice at night. I am still doing acupuncture as well as neruomuscular therapy. What a great service you have here. I thank you show much for answering my question promptly.
Lorie
In Reply to: Re: Spinal fusion 7 mo ago problems with severe leg aches posted by Denny on May 07, 1998 at 05:52:05:
Hi Denny,
Have I got news for you !! My doctor put me on Neurontin. It's a med icine for people with epilipsy but also works to calm the nerves down by giving it more blood. It does not make you feel like when your on pain medicine. It took 4 days but finally I have relief. No more legs in ice buckets for me. I hope you try this I read other articles in reference to this same problem. It has helped alot of people I hope it will help you. I have only had 1 day of relief but man does it feel great!! Let me know if it works.
Take Care
Lorie
In Reply to: Re: L5-S1 spinal fusion posted by joanlesley green on May 07, 1998 at 11:24:14:
Dear Joanleslie,
Thanks for your testimonial.
Use the archives feature for this BB & read everything you can find about spinal conditions frequently surgerized.
THEN, if you stil have questions, write again.
Walt
In Reply to: spinal fusion posted by joan green on May 07, 1998 at 11:39:28:
Dear Joan,
The reason that they are done is that they generate a lot of income for conventional physicians. For YEARS, it has been known that Chiropractic is several times as effective for conditions like this and is a LOT less expensive & a LOT safer. For many more years than that, it has been known that surgery for conditions like this is only effective in 1/3 of the cases, 1/3 get worse and 1/3 stay the same.
33% on any test I know of from school is considered failing. However, Chiropractic is considered "competition" to the monopoly and so you get little information about that. Doc Dave, the excellent Chiropractor on this bb, can tell you about that better than I can. However, we both agree that the regular practice of skilled relaxation is more important than anything else in the long run.
A series of 10 Rolfings would be very helpful to you for a year or so while the relaxation is taking effect. If you have found the archives that contain many of the articles about spinal conditions like this, you have been exposed to all of these options as well as how to find the professionals you might need to do them. Be sure to read the resources recommended. Once you understand the concepts, you wil be the best person to decide what to learn next.
If you have more questions, once you have the above under your belt, write again.
Walt
In Reply to: Re: spinal fusion patients please respond posted by Stacy Swanson on May 07, 1998 at 18:15:33:
Dear Stacy,
Your "nightmare is NOT over" unless you take stock & acquire enough knowledge of your options to prortect yourself.
Use the archives feature for this bb & read everything you can find about spinal conditions frequently surgerized. Be sure to read the resources mentioned too. THEN, if you still have questions, write again.
Remember: "To a hammer, everything looks like a nail!"
Walt
In Reply to: Re: cervical disc fusion posted by deb berlin on May 07, 1998 at 23:27:58:
Dear Deb,
To me, this is recent. You will find many bb participants who have had this going on for a lot more years than that-----mainly because their docs didn't know any better: "To a hammer, everything looks like a nail!"
It is true that you now have to deal with the debris of the surgery. Howevert, it doesn't change your need to understand this thoroughly before doing anything else. If you can find a good hypnosis instructor, there is an excellent chance that you could experience significant relief while you were learning how to get out of this mess in the long run.
Let us know how you do.
Walt
I am 3 weeks status post anterior cervical fusion with graft & plate at C5-6. I can not find a comfortable pillow or sleeping position...do you have any suggestions?
Dear Dr Stoll in 1992 i had a spinal fusion at these levels this was my second fusion in two years the first was a cervical fusion at first i seemed to be progressing well then in early 1993 some three months after surgery i had a bad fall which injured my achilles on my right leg as my left leg was already in a caliper due to the spinal promlemsso when i had to have a plaster cast on my right leg for six weeks life became difficult and since this fall i seem to have lost any improvement i made in the beginning do you think this fall could have caused any permanent damage although the metal plate is dstill in place there was talk of damage to the delicate tissue as the spine was fusing i get so many different for my condition now i am totally confused the surgeon who did the surgery says it is down to the fall so does my gp but how will i ever know now if i would have got better had i not fallen desperate for some answers please could you advise i live in pain day after day and it really is getting me down best wishes joan
In Reply to: Re: spinal fusion posted by Walt Stoll on May 09, 1998 at 10:28:39:
Have undergone two surgeries for cervicle spine. Now have 4 vertebrae fused with hip bone and am now in chronic pain. can you suggest anything at all?
I am a 56 year old woman with Degenerative Disc Disease. Have just been told I have a second herniated disc at C4-C5. Have already had disc at C5-C6 fused and have disc at C6-C7 (also with spurs) that is not in great shape either. I have an appointment with my Neurosurgeon coming up this week so he and the Orthopedist (?sp) can decide what to do. I'm very depressed over this situation as it seems that everytime I think I getting healthy again, something new crops up. Am I going to have to be "FUSED" consistently to alleviate this pain. It's not only in the neck and upper spine but both arms and shoulders are being affected by pain and loss of strength. The last time I had this procedure done, I was off from work in a hard collar for 6 weeks and at work in a soft collar for 6 weeks. Loss of work and $ is adding to my depression. Any feedback would be appreciated. JOYCE
I have posted to this board before and have got responses from alot of really nice people and have learned alot of things that I wish I had know prior to surgery. But now I need some help. I had L-5/S-1 fused with RA-Cages on 10/97 since surgery I have had continual pain in my left leg and a "popping" in my right hip and buttock area. I can bring my knees together and get a crunching sound in the hip. I saw my suregon on 5/98 and he tells me that due to the fusion and decreased mobility my SI joint is now moving and giving out. I am curious if this has happened to any other fusion patients and if so how did they treat it? My surgeon is having me go for a "point injection" of cortison right to the SI joint. If this doesn't help I am afraid more surgery may be needed. If anyone knows for sure or can give me any information I would greatly appreciate it.
Lori Budd
In Reply to: Re: spinal fusion posted by Robert L. Gould on May 10, 1998 at 10:25:15:
just came across your request.. i too have had fusion done
and still no better. i feel the people who come here and
complain of pain are the ones in pain..the people who do
better, dont need to come here..thats why we here so much
of the neg. talk..so robert to answer your question. i can
only joke because i have found no relief and have search
for myself ...but take the old spine back to kmart and get
a new one from sears with a warranty....good luck to you
and i guess we have to continue seeking for answers..denny
Had spinal fusion at 16 and another at 44. I opted against the "metal cylinder" approach on the latter (it wasn't available on the first procedure). I do recommend having the surgery if your pain becomes unmanageable. Do yourself a favor and avoid cortisone injections (they didn't work for me or anyone I've spoken with since). While the result of the second surgery has not totally alleviated pain (in fact it has created a minor problem in the area of my hip where they took the bone for the graft) it is controllable and certainly not constant.
Good luck with your decision. In closing, I suggest you go with a traditional approach where long term (twenty years) post operative recovery is well documented.
In Reply to: Re: Cervical Anterior Fusion posted by Sara McEvoy on May 09, 1998 at 21:33:05:
Dear Sara,
ONLY your surgeon & Physical Therapist can tell you this!
In the meantime, you could get a handle on how you can speed up recovery & prevent future recurrences of your cervical problem. Use the archives feature provided with this bb and read everything you can find about spinal conditions frequently surgerized.
THEN, if you still have questions, write again.
Walt
Walt,
I am starting my 3rd week after a L5 S1 Fusion and right now the pain in my back isn't much worse then before the surgery. I had a fusion L5 S3 in 1972 and it was a complete success with back to normal living in less than a year. Her I am 25 years later having another done and am complteley
confident it will also be a sucess. If you would like to dicsuss futher you have my email..
Dear Walt, I have finally made it to my 12 week postop
spinal fusion. I am still in extream pain legs ache really
bad hips as well..my medication has increased from 1
darvacet to 2 every 4 to 5 hours. one thing i have noticed
is people in pain are in this forum so we do not here the
good replies....because now they can move on with their
lifes.. walt i know you said this failed. but i still have
some hope that maybe i just take longer. I am 34 male and
I am really afraid of what might be down the road when i
get older..despite the pain i can still hold my own..
the pain is so bad that i dont know what to tell my wife
that she will understand..i am at a threshhold to where
i could cry. I have 2 more weeks till my next appt. it feels
like forever, i have wait 1 1/2 months...walt thanks for
your time... Denny
In Reply to: spinal fusion L5 S1 posted by JOAN GREEN on May 10, 1998 at 05:18:33:
Dear Joan,
Your whole story tells me that you have very far advanced total-body bracing that is related to everything you have said so far.
You could prove me right (or wrong) by getting a deep, total-body, therapeutic massage 3 times a week for 2 weeks & see how you feel. If I am right, you will get very significant relief for at least a few weeks or months. If you want longer relief, Rolfing would work for a year or so. In the end, what you ned to get pernanent relief is the regular practice of effective skilled relaxation at least twice a day for 20 minutes (not counting any done within 2 hours of retiring). This has been discussed so many times, I am not going to do it again. Use the archives feature provided with this BB & read everything you can find about spinal conditions frequently surgerized. THEN, if you still have questions, write again.
Walt
In Reply to: Re: spinal fusion posted by Robert L. Gould on May 10, 1998 at 10:25:15:
Dear Robert,
I SURELY CAN!
Use the archives feature for this bb and read everything you can find about spinal conditions frequently surgerized.
THEN, if you still have questions, write again.
Walt
In Reply to: Re: cervical disc fusion posted by Joyce on May 10, 1998 at 20:21:00:
Dear Joyce,
"To a hammer, everything looks like a nail!"
Yoiu need to learn that there are MANY options that you have not been told by the "hammer". Use the archives provided with this BB and read everything you can find about spinal conditions frequently surgerized.
I, personally, had more than 5 degenerated discs and was told surgery was my only option. Here I am more than 30 years later, having had no symptoms for more than 20 years, AND I never had any surgery. Once I knew what to do, I was asymptomatic within 6 months.
Walt
I HAD THE SURGERY ABOVE IN DEC OF 1997 I WAS PRETTY PAIN FREE FOR 3 MONTHS THEN I STARTED HAVING SUBSTANIAL PAIN AGAIN IN THE L5-S1 AREA I DONT KNOW WHAT TO DUE REALLY
I WOULD APPRECIATE ANY HELP YOU CAN GIVE ME
LARRY S
I had a spinal fusion in Sept. 1992 at the University of Minnesota hospital. I had L-4, L-5 and S-1 fused, using bone graft from my left iliac crest. Two years later the rods and screws had to be removed due to the pressure on the nerves they were hitting. Since that time I have been great although the problems I am having now are due to unstable SI joints on both sides. Next week on the 22nd of May I am undergoing Radio Frequency Ablation at the Mayo Clinic to lessen the nerve pain.
One year ago today I had spinal reconstructive surgery performed by John McAffee, M.D..He did a lamenectomy and fusion on and in L-3,L-4,L-5,and S-1. He collected the lamen and bone spurs and chopped it all up and mixed it with gel-glue AND DID the FUSION RIGHT!He did NOT go to my hipbone. He did NOT use any instrumentation. I suffered from spinal stenosis AND spondylolithesis AND arthritis.I swam all summer and played golf 4 months to the day after surgery. An 89 at SEA ISLAND! I have no pain. He is GOD's gift. He practices at St. Joseph'S in Towsen, Md. and is an orthodeadic chair fellow @ John'S Hopkins. He is also a neurosurgeon. Quite a stud.
In Reply to: L5-S1 ANTEIOR LAPORSCOPC FUSION WITH CAGES posted by LARRY S on May 12, 1998 at 15:37:23:
Got through the archives on this BB.
Chiropractic and skilled relaxation will resolve most conditions of this sort. Post surgical treatment by a chiropractor will be something that only that chiropractor can determine so you would be well advised to obtain a copy of your records and consult a local, respected chiropractor.
Av-Med Study(Large southeastern HMO)
This study included 80 patients, each of whom was previously treated by a medical doctor and subsequently referred to the
Silverman Chiropractic Center. Of these 80 patients, 21 % had been diagnosed with disc problems, 5% received emergency
room treatment and 12% had been diagnosed as requiring surgery.
Following chiropractic treatment, no surgery was required. 86% needed no further treatment at all. And the projected savings on the patient study group was approximately $250,000.
The Av-Med Study, 1993.
In Reply to: SI Joint degeneration post-fusion surgery posted by Lori Budd on May 11, 1998 at 00:19:27:
Dear Lori,
This is not an uncommon complication of your surgery. Wouldn't it be nice if the surgeon would tell you this stuff BEFORE cutting? Of course, a fully educated patient would likely choose another of the options you are NOW learning.
Although the cortisone injection might help, the relief would only be temporary. Depending on how much I was suffering I might use that option for the temporary relief I might get while I was looking at my other options. You have to know, however, that the longer this kind of thing goes on and the more surgeries that are done, the fewer options you will have.
I would like to hear if Doc Dave has any suggestions at this stage.
The only suggestions I would have are long term ones but still the best hope you have in the long run: 1. Start the regular practice of an effective skilled relaxation at least twice a day for 20 minutes (not counting any done within 2 hours of retiring) and, 2. Learning of your other options to reduce inflammation & autoimmune factors: a] Read a copy of my book {link on this page} and/or b] Be seen in consultation by THE Pain & Stress Treatment Center referenced so many times in the archives archives.
Let us know how you do and do not hesitate to ask any more questions you might have once you have the above under your belt. This now falls under the subject of arthritis but still is related to "spinal conditions frequently surgerized".
Walt
In Reply to: Re: spinal fusion posted by Denny on May 11, 1998 at 04:39:38:
Dear Denny,
If you have gone to the archives and still have questions, after reading everything you can find about spinal conditions frequently surgerized, I do not understand. The answers you seek are there along with the references you might need to learn as much as you desire.
There are NO magic treatments. knowledge will set you free.
Walt
In Reply to: Re: spinal fusion patients please respond posted by Robert Bordelon on May 11, 1998 at 07:49:28:
Dear Robert,
Copngratulations on your being one of the lucky ones.
I would be VERY interested in your sharing ANY information you might have about "a traditional approach where long term (twenty years) post operative recovery is well documented". I was not aware that any such approach existed.
I believe if there were any such approach that everyone would be doing it. I would, however, like to be proven wrong. I am always open to learning something new.
All the research I have seen follows the well known statistics for all surgical approoaches: 1/3 get better, 1/3 get worse and 1/3 stay the same.
The only approaches that, consistently, do better are the alternative options we have been discussing, right here on this bb, for years.
Please help.
Walt
In Reply to: Re: spinal fusion patients please respond posted by Jim on May 11, 1998 at 21:23:44:
Dear Jim,
An L5-S1 will not heal so easily as an L5-S3, only partly because you are 26 years older. However, the fact that you are basically repeating the treatment helps to support what I have been saying about the importance of getting at the causes rather than just cutting off the tip of the iceberg.
A good attitude about the success of the surgery is helpful but your odds are the same this time as they were last: 1/3 chance to get better, 1/3 chance to get worse and 1/3 chance to stay the same.
Walt
Hi, I was born with Spondyolsis and Spondylosthesis and didn't find this out till just recently. During that time I had a set of twins along with another pregnancy. My back was getting bad and the past 6 months I was lgetting numbness and siadica. It got to the point I was getting a drag leg on the right side. So my doctor highly suggested surgery almost immediately. I am now 5 weeks after surgery having a lamnectomy on L4 & L5 both fixing front and back along with fixing the roof of my spine and a spinal fusion. I jumped into this because I had fear of losing total feeling. The CT scan read L4 & L5 was 40% off
Anyways, I know have a battery type implant. Does this ever need to be maintained or taken out. And is there chance I would ever have to go through this terriblly painful surgery again? I am going back for xray in 2 weeks and am so afraid of further surgerys. This recovery process is so long especially when you have 3 little ones. Looking forward to your response thanks
Jill Ryan
Over ten years ago my husband suffered a fractured vertebrae (L2). Harrington Rods were used to fix the fracture. Now my husband is suffering from pain shooting down his legs, numbness in his hands, foot pain and obviously pain in his lower back. My question is this: What can he do to alleviate some of his pain? Removing the rods has been ruled out by an orthopedic surgeon, but the suggestion was made to perhaps reverse the hooks on the rods. It is very disturbing to see how he suffers on a daily basis..when he wakes up in the morning, he literally has to roll on all fours to the floor, slowly raising to a standing position. Is there anybody else out there who has had this procedure done? What long term effects have you suffered from?
Thank You!!
I underwent a spinal fusion back in 1977 which fused my thoratic spine due to idiopathic scolosis. There was nothing left to do. I had lost 5 inches in height due to giving birth to my first child. It really helped, since before the surgery I couldn't be up longer than ten minutes at a time without having horrible pain. I still have problems- I can't lean over for any amount of time, I still am disfigured due to my rib cage being sunken in on one side while the other side is pushed out- I do not wear tight clothes for fear others will see the hump on my shoulder and how bad I really look. I have horrible amounts of scar tissue not only there, but also due to the other three back surgeries I have underwent for ruptured discs in the lumbar area. After many years of being told to learn to live with the pain, I finally found relief at Dr. Laitin's pain center in Phoenix. He was the only one who helped me. I was ready to kill myself by the time I came into his office. He never gave up trying to help, and after 5 months of trying various medications, he put me on 90 mg. of morphine a day. I have my life back! I still have limitations and can't do everything that a normal person can do, but he has given me a new life as far as I am concerned. I can read and retain what I have read, this was impossible with the pain that I was in previously. Dr. Laitin is very stern about exercise, he made me be a part of my own recovery. I was to walk my dogs every morning for exercise no matter what. I had no excuse. If I was hurting, I still would walk them, just not as far. He taught me that pain paitients need structure in their lives, and a mind set that you can overcome your pain. It just takes time. I also think it takes having a doctor who believes in you.
My pre-surgery symptoms were; intense groin pain, pain in my left leg, numbness in my calf muscles and the feeling of an ice pick being drove through my big toe. I was a machinist so I did many repetitive motions, with varying amounts of weight that I lifted.I had lived with this pain for almost twenty two years. I had been injured in the Military in "74", and the Veterans Administration was a place to hide hacks.
I am lucky in that I have family that are MDs. My sister and her husband warned me of the horrors of the VA.
My pain became so intense I could barely walk. I went for the shots because pain pills and me dont like each other. The Doc. who gave me my epidurals said no more after the sixth shot on 5/6/97, I underwent a spinal fusion. It was a five hour procedure. I had a laminectomy, foramintomy, diskectomy and something else done, with fixtures installed, and EBI stimulator hooked up. TO the L4-L5, S-1. My Doctor, David C. Hemmy, designed the fixtures he installed, and had the patent on them. Everything was custom made to my spine. I also liked him for his attitude that cutting was the last resort.
I forced myself to walk two hours post-op, well I hugged the wall with my morophine pump, my wife and a nurse. The fact is I did it. I continued to walk my 2 1/2 days in the hospital.
I wanted to go home in the worst way. The night shift nurses were nothing but lazy slobs( whole different story). I informed my Doc. who by the way rules the hospital. He told me that if he sent up OT and I could get dressed by myself with the use of tools I could go home.
I jumped at the challenge. I went home on a Friday afternoon. A very happy man to be back with my wife and children(5), and my springers.
I had a plastic turtle shell I wore except for sleeping. Took 750 Vicodans and Valium to ease things out for me. Got hooked on them puppies. That was a nightmare.
Didnt really have a pt plan except to walk so that is what I did.I walked and I walked. I hit a dip in the side walk one night and thought I would die. I hugged a tree and cried for about ten minutes. A police officer stopped and asked if I was ok. I tried to explain to him I was fine, but he insisted he give me a ride home. It took longer in his squad car than the walk itself.
Pt informed me I wouldnt go back to work. I was pretty upset and worried over that comment. I had to have a plan so I went back to the VA and confronted them on my situation.
Their solution was to retrain me. Off to college I went, forty one y/o, and back in school. It was great because it took my mind off of my pain and problems. I did have to get a little lugage cart to tote my books around with. Shoulder bag tore me up
I have to admit I havent taken any pain pills for a long time. Not even aspirin, or aleve. I had a sinus headache two monthes ago and took some aspirin for that.
I get burning pain at the base of my spine, some weird pains I never experienced before the surgery. The numbness is still in my toe, but my groin pain is gone.
Overall, I am glad I had the surgery. There are some trade offs that have to be made. I dont play golf anymore, or rough house with my boys the way I did, Piggy back rides are out of the question, but I adapted, I just rethink how something is to be done before I tackle it.
Good Luck To the rest of the Fusioners Out There.
Tim Conway
In Reply to: Re: spinal fusion patients please respond posted by Jill Ryan on May 13, 1998 at 22:41:01:
Dear Jill,
To a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
Use the archives section provided for this bb & read everything you can find about spinal conditions frequently surgerized.
THEN, if you still have questions, write again.
Walt
this is my third surgery of the c-1&c-2 vertebra and my opcipital nerves are really back. the first surgery seemed to be ok until eight months after and I start having severe headaches. they did another x-ray on me and found that the wire had broke. the dr. thought it was no big deal and went in to remove it. when he got in he found that the bones had not fused and ended up doing another graft as well as a fusion. four months after i start having serious headaches again, they did x-ray and found that the fusion did not work again. to say the lest by this time I was having depression to go along with all the pain. they did another fusion two months ago and I've been in pain since. the specialist that my dr sent me to said that the opcipital nerves were damage and he informed my surgeon that I needed them cut because the nerve blocks and pain pills were not working. my depression from all the surgeries got so bad that they sent me to the phyc hospital for 4 weeks. I can say with all honesty it was the best thing that happened to me.the theraphy really helped me to cope with all this deruption in my life. these surgeries have been going for two years now and i has affected my marriage as well as my job.it has been extremely lonely and emotionally tiring. has anyony else had these experiencces?
I'm having a spinal fusion in a week. Just finished reading these postings, most of which make me wonder if I've made a decision I'll regret. Was actually supposed to have the surgery a week ago, but an emergency postponed it until next week. It sounds a lot worse than I'm expecting. Mine is going to be an anterior caged fusion--those of you who've had one--should I reconsider? Any help you can give will be greatly appreciated. Thanks!
I'm new at the Internet and not sure if I'm doing this right.
I'm scheduled for a spinal fusion in a week. After reading the postings here, I'm wondering if I've made a decision I'll regret. Those of you who've recently had an anterior caged fusion, any advice/help/pointers on what to expect would be greatly appreciated--either here or via e-mail. Thanks!
I had laminectomy at L4-5 in May, 1997. Two weeks after surgery I re-reptured. My doctor said I was crazy because I had a good surgery. I have changed doctors and after an MRI, myelogram, and discogram have found out I have 3 ruptured discs. L3-4, L4-5, L5-S1 and they all cause pain. My current doctor said it was important to find out which ruptures were causing pain. My doctor (spinal specialist and young and fresh out of his fellowship) explained fusion surgery like this: if you have 1 level it is bad; if you have 2 levels it is worse; and if you have 3 levels it is like being run over by a truck. He says if I can keep moving and deal with the pain he advises to not have the surgery. I am looking for someone who has had a 3 level fusion. I am also looking for anyone who has had any fusion surgery to advise of recovery time, level of pain, experience in the hospital. I am in aqua therapy three times per week. Any other ideas for exercise?
In Reply to: spinal fusion posted by Suzanne on May 15, 1998 at 22:18:06:
I have not had spinal fusion but I am a candidate for a three level fusion. I had laminectomy at L4-5 in May, 1997. My doctor says that if exercise (I do mine in water) and medicaition helps, keep away from fusions. I don't know about pain during hospital and after fusion but my doctor told me it was not a good thing. Would like to talk with you about your level of fusion and pain management now. Please e-mail: kaufbennett@juno.com
In Reply to: spinal fusion posted by Suzanne on May 15, 1998 at 22:18:06:
There are some good reasons to have a fusion. Unfortunately your MD can't be trusted to tell you what they are. Don't believe me? Ask Dr. Stoll.
The Av-Med Study
This study included 80 patients, each of whom was previously treated by a medical doctor and subsequently referred to the
Silverman Chiropractic Center. Of these 80 patients, 21 % had been diagnosed with disc problems, 5% received emergency
room treatment and 12% had been diagnosed as requiring surgery.
Following chiropractic treatment, no surgery was required. 86% needed no further treatment at all. And the projected
savings on the patient study group was approximately $250,000.
The Av-Med Study, 1993.
"Two and three years after patients with back pain were treated by chiropractors, they experienced far less pain than those who were treated by medical doctors."
British Medical Journal, 1990.
"...one of the unexpected findings ...looks as though the treatment that the chiropractors give does something that results in a very long-term benefit."
T. W. Meade, M.D., CBC Radio.
Nine of ten chiropractic users felt their treatment was effective.
The Gallup Organization, 1991.
In Reply to: Harrington Rods for Fractured Vertebrae posted by Aya on May 14, 1998 at 11:00:38:
Dear Aya,
The fractures & subsequent insertion of the Harringtons, has placed him in a more susceptible classification for getting the exact spinal conditions discussed here on this bb for years.
His present options are the same as for those who never had to have this trauma to push them over the edge. Use this link archives & read everything you can find about spinal conditions frequently surgerized. ACTUALLY, IT WOULD BE A LOT BETTER IF HE READ IT! Then, if either of you have more questions, write again.
In the meantime, I would seriously seek two (2) more opinions about removing the Harringtons. DO not accept recommendations from your present doc as to who to see and one of the professionals should be a neurosurgeon.
Walt
Marsha-I hope your are feeling better. I am facing a 3 level fusion - L3-4, L4-5, L5-S1. I have lots of questions. How long was your surgery. Where are your incisions. What kind of pain after surgery and now. As you can see I need to start at the beginning. Please e-mail.
In Reply to: Re: spinal fusion patients please respond posted by Tim Conway on May 15, 1998 at 02:10:03:
Dear Tim.
Thanks for the wonderful story of guts & determination. This should be an inspiration to anyone out there with a similar problem.
From MY standpoint, I wonder what you could have done with a wider understanding of causes that you could do something about. You, of all people, deserved to know ALL of your options since, with your guts, you would have been one who would have put in the effort needed to utilize most of the effective approaches.
The problem has never been that the alternatives to the strictly conventional approach do not work but that they take effort on the part of the patient & most people want someone else to do it for them.
I'm sure that you understand that all of your surgery, and your rehabilitative efforts, have done nothing much about why you had this horrendous problem. I know, you said it was caused by an injury. Hoever, there have likely been thousands (if not millions) of peopel who had the exact same injury and never had any of the aftereffects that you had. Why you & not them?
Those susceptibility factors are still there waiting for some other little injury OR causing a similar probelm without ANY injury. Now is the time for you to start learning about this THING that has so strongly influenced your life & change whatever is needed to avoid having to go through it again.
If you are interested, use the link: archives. Read everything you can find about spinal conditions frequently surgerized. THEN, if you still have questions, write again.
Walt
In Reply to: Re: Cervical Fusion posted by maria buethe on May 15, 1998 at 12:43:15:
Dear Maria,
"To a hammer, everything looks like a nail!"
Use the link: archives
Read everything you can find about spinal conditions frequently surgerized. THEN, if you have more questions, write again.
Walt
In Reply to: Re: spinal fusion patients please respond posted by c bennett on May 16, 1998 at 01:35:53:
Dear c.,
I had 5 ruptured discs and never had surgery because I learned that there ARE options other than surgery. That was more than 25 years ago and I have not had back pain since. This experience was one of the things that led me to practice holistic medicine.
Go to the link: archives and read everything you can find about spinal conditions frequently surgerized. THEN, if you still have questions, write again.
"To a hammer, everything looks like a nail!" Kudos to the doc who told you the truth about your surgical chances! When you are well he would be a good one for you to share your experiences with. Just think how many others he might help if he knew more than just to be honest with the patient!
Walt
In Reply to: Re: spinal fusion patients please respond posted by Cindy on May 17, 1998 at 01:23:56:
Dear Cindy,
I hope you are not thinking that surgery is your only option.
A person with your exact lesions had his note answered yesterday on this bb. If you look at nothing else, I hope you will look at that. You have less than a 20% chance of benefittring from surgery with this set of lesions and more than a 40% chance that you will be worse. I hope your surgeon has been straight with you about that.
If you have not gone to the archives where your options are described go to archives and read everything you can find about spinal conditions frequently surgerized.
THEN, if you still have questions, write again.
Walt
In Reply to: Re: Spinal fusion 7 mo ago problems with severe leg aches posted by Lorie on May 09, 1998 at 05:42:20:
Hello,
Well the medicine Neurontin is not working. I think it was me being off my feet and not working for 2 weeks. I have to work so I am in trouble. Any suggestions?
Thank you
Lorie
In Reply to: Re: Spinal fusion 7 mo ago problems with severe leg aches posted by Lorie on May 21, 1998 at 12:51:03:
Dear Lorie,
Recommendations are the same as before. The resolution of chronic conditions like this will never be something you TAKE but something you DO.
Walt
In Reply to: Re: Spinal fusion 7 mo ago problems with severe leg aches posted by Walt Stoll on May 23, 1998 at 11:00:24:
Dr. Stoll,
I am not just taking medication but having accupuncture as well as neuromuscular therapy done. I also do several stretching exercises each day. I am also lifting weights, riding a bike and swimming. The leg aches just won't go away. I have tried both less activity and more, but nothing helps. Understand I am not looking for a magic pill just a way out of this mess !!
Thank You
Lorie
In Reply to: Re: Spinal fusion 7 mo ago problems with severe leg aches posted by Lorie on May 24, 1998 at 17:44:36:
Dear Lorie,
SKILLED RELAXATION! SKILLED RELAXATION! SKILLED RELAXATION!
Walt
In Reply to: Re: cervical disc fusion posted by Joyce on May 10, 1998 at 20:21:00:
my husband has a ruptured disc between the 6th and 7th disc
in his neck. he will be having surgery soon.
we know what you are going through.
good luck