My friend is in dire straights. She has had 3 surgeries concerning the L5-S1disc. Surgery 1: bulging disc ruptured. Treatment: Ray-threaded cages (2). 1 month later, rt cage fell out of place. Surgery 2: removal of cage and fusion. Rest of disc herniated from spine unstabability. Surgery 3: partial coral bone in place of disc. Spine "wired" together because fusion wouldn't take. All this in 8 months and according to the doctor, it is due to her smoking cigarettes and eating Big Macs. He says she is a surgical failure and there is nothing more he can do. Now in more pain than before all the surgeries. Please help
In Reply to: The surgical failure posted by Anda Zeiger on June 02, 1998 at 22:08:23:
Dear Anda,
Too bad your friend has been paying someone else to do her thinking for her. "To a hammer, everything looks like a nail!"
It is still not too late but she will have to work harder, & longer, to resolve her original mechanisms AND the surgical damage already done.
Have her use the link: archives.
Have her read everything she can find about spinal problems frequently surgerized.
THEN, if she still has questions have her write. In the end, SHE is the one who has to know. Neither of US can do this for her.
Walt
Joyce - I had a cervical disectomey from C-3 - C7 no fussion. Apparently thehsurgeon didn't didn't decompress my spinal cord enough as a Post operative MRI scan showed significant compression at all levels. I am in contiued full body pain. I have contacted a surgepn at the University of Pittsburg. Dr Hae Dong Jho. who has pionered minimally incasive spinal surgery and can get inside the spinal canal using onl a inch inscion and remove only the part of the disc that is bulging. I hope that you have nor had surgery as of yet, His office number is 1-412- 647-0986. You will be talking to Robin Coret. If you get on Aol and just Type in his name he will come up on the first ten choice. He is the Director of Micro neurosurgey at the University of Pittsburg. Presberterian. I am schedualed for surergy on the 23 of this month to remove the bone spurs and stenosis caused by the rubtured discs material the other surgeon didn't remove. He will use one or two inch long inscions to get inside the spinal canel and using endiscope and special tools can remove the offending material. Pleace checkj this ouout before you hav e surgery, He will only remove the offending material and you will not have a fusion. But you must have a current MRI scan to send to him. He will get back with you very quickly once he gets the films. Good luck
My husband was just told he has recurring hernaited disc. The disc was removed 18 years ago and we were not aware that disc "grew back". Do they and waht are the chance of this being an accurate diagnosis? this has been very upsetting to both of us, we are afraid surgery may be in the future.
In Reply to: Re: Disc Fusion posted by VWorman on June 05, 1998 at 06:24:35:
Dear VWorman,
If your husband had known of his nonsurgical options back then he may have chosen them , avoided the first surgery, & certainly not be faced with a recurrance. All of the options that I know of are based on dealing with the causes of the problem. Since your husband only had the surgery (which does NOTHING about causes) it was more likely than not that the problem would recurr.
If you think he is ready to at least learn of his options, use the link: archives and read everything he can find about spinal conditions frequently surgerized. THEN, if he chooses the surgery, at least he cannot say he did not know he HAD options. If he only listens to his surgeon he should keep in th back of his mind the old adage: "To a hammer, everything looks like a nail!"
He was fortunate that he was among the 1/3 who get benefits from surgery. Statistics have always shown that 1/3 get worse and 1/3 stay the same after surgery. He faces the same statistics this time around.
Once he has the above information under his belt, if he still has questions have him write again.
My personal problems with ruptured discs was about 25 years ago. I learned about the options & have not had either the surgery OR any symptoms for all those 25 years.
Walt
In Reply to: Re: Disc Fusion posted by Walt Stoll on June 07, 1998 at 10:58:06:
Walt, what other options are there. I've been to PT for 6 months. Chiropratic care for 1yr.Three epidurals and still in pain. My doctors say the only way for relief is fusion surgery. Help!
In Reply to: Re: Disc Fusion posted by Vicki on June 16, 1998 at 22:05:15:
Dear Vicki,
Please take the time to go to the link:
archives and read everything you can find about spinal conditions frequently susgerized.
THEN, if you still have questions, write again.
Walt
Rex,
Let us know how your surgery comes out with Dr. Jho.
I have had two fusions and had considered using Dr. Jho
before my previous surgery. I have talked with some of the
personnel at the University of Pitt, however, for different
reasons I decided against the surgery.
Thanks,
Suzanne,
Hi, I like many others out here had the fun of going through a fusion. And like you , I serched the net for more information. What I found scared me to death ( Im not saying it was false) But let some one give you a good thing to look forward to.
Im a 36 year old male, and I hurt myself at work 2 years ago to the day. my first doctor insisted on a microdisectomystateing it was less intrusive, so I agreed. In fact I told him i'll sharpen the knife(lets get on with it) well that failed very bad in fact i was in worse shape than before,so after a few epiderals that did nothing and more phyisical therapy they decided on a fusion
I had a 3 level L-4/L-5/S-1 spinal fussion posterior and anterior (Front and back) they grafted from my hip filled 3 cages set 7 screws and 2 rods with a cross member for support. the time i was under was about 9 hours
they kept me in the hospital 10 day's
This Happened Jan-6-98 a week later they removed the staples from my belly and back
and on 4-27-98 Im back to my old self they let me go back to work i have some limeted movement but this is to be expected.
I can say that without a shadow of a dought Im glad I had this done to me Iam back to playing rough and tough again!!
I still have a bad here and there But nothing like before
I hope you do as well as I did
Tom Hood
On Jun 13, 1997, I had my C-5 C-6 disc fused and the disc removed. Now, one year later, I am about to go back in and have the left side of the fusion redone. The bone fusion did not take. I am no going to let them take my own bone again and hope to use a donor bone. I have had
pain in my left shoulder and arm since my first operation. This was the reason for the first operation. I have became very depressed and cannot believe that I have to go thru this again. Any advice would be very much apperateted.
In Reply to: Re: cervical disc fusion posted by Gary Burton on June 21, 1998 at 16:43:34:
Dear Gary,
You desperately need to know of your options besides surgery. "To a hammer, everything looks like a nail!"
Use the link: spinal archives and read everything you can find about spinal condiditons frequently surgerized.
THEN, if you have more questions write again.
Walt
I had spinal disc fusion in October of 1997. Six titanium screws, 2 rods, and six bolts. My left leg did start to drag before the operation and I was losing control of my bowels and bladder. After the operation I felt better. I started to walk in water and do simple leg lifts. I recently twisted my lower back and legs and now I have experienced so much pain in my legs and back it is unbelievable. Being on HMO does not help. Everytime I have my teeth cleaned I'm put on antibotics which causes infections. I have ulser's now. I went to the doctor due to my knees hurting, now that I squat more. The only choice he gives me is anti-depresants, which I currently take two different brands. Pain pills are limited because they don't want me to get "hooked". I can not keep my balance now, I fall very easily. If I had the chance to do it all again, I don't feel like I would do this again. It seems I barely can get out of bed due to the pain. I can't sleep on my left side and since I recently strained my back I can't sleep on my right side. My job requires alot of sitting which is very hard to do. I miss approximately 2 to 3 days of week, which is causing me to get reprimanded for absenteeism. I feel I will get fired since I recently filed a workers comp. claim with the department I work with. I told the doctor the only thing I wanted was to be able to feel the same. I can't walk more than 1/2 mile at a time. My legs tingle and cramp continously, which the doctor say is normal. This is not normal to me!! I go back for a check up on July 09, 1998 to get released. I am going today to a third doctor for a third opinion. Hopefully he won't think I'm crazy all it's all in my head!
In Reply to: Re: L5-S1 spinal fusion posted by Rose Klein on June 22, 1998 at 16:38:36:
Dear Rose,
It is not too late for you to learn what you needed to know BEFORE your first surgery.
Go to the link: Suzanne on June 22, 1998 at 19:17:25:
For those of you considering spinal fusion who are frightened by the mostly negative postings regarding it (as was I--see my posting of 5/15/98)--take heart. There are many people who also have positive results; I am one of them, and I have come into contact with many others who've had positive results as well. My surgery was slightly over 4 weeks ago (caged fusion at L5, S1, anterior approach), and I have been up and moving around since the 3rd day after the surgery (which is also the day I came home). Though I still have healing to do, I have progressed quite well. When I first read all the negative postings, I vowed that if my experience was positive, I'd come back to this site and let others know. And then I forgot. I was reminded only by the fact that someone else I recently communicated with told me of a similar promise. Had that not jogged my memory, I'm sure I would have forgotten entirely. The point is that those of us (and I believe there are many) who have done well have become engaged in other tasks--thus, we forget to add our positive remarks, and what you're left reading is mostly the negative comments. While I'm sure that there are people out there who are stuggling due to unsuccessful fusions (and I take seriously their pain and struggle), know that there is another side to the story. I hope this helps any of you who are frightened to death--I was in the same boat only a month ago, and I can honestly say that if I had to make the choice over, I'd do it again in a heartbeat.
In Reply to: spinal fusion posted by Suzanne on June 22, 1998 at 19:17:25:
As Dr. Stoll can attest, doctors don't always give you the whole story. They seem to forget to mention how at 5 years post-op only 1/3 are improved, compared to their pre-op status, 1/3 the same, and 1/3 worse. These are not the statistics they like to share. I am glad to hear you are doing well. I hope it stays that way. Unfortunately, this is not usually the case. It ISN'T fair to hear only horror stories about this type of surgery but it is beyond unfair(illegal in fact, due to informed consent) when surgeons fail to metion ALL the long term outcome statistics.
Everyday there are more and more statistics, such as the following, that are swept under the rug and illegally kept out of the minds of people who are trying to make an informed decision.
"Complications were recorded in 18% of fusion patients"
"Unadjusted reoperation rates over the 5-year period were greater for patients who underwent fusion than for patients who underwent nonfusion surgery (18% vs. 15%, respectively) ..."
Spine 1998 Apr 1;23(7):814-820
Spine 1998 Apr 1;23(7):834-838
The effect of postoperative nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drug administration on spinal fusion.
"CONCLUSION: These data suggest that nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs significantly inhibit spinal fusion at doses typically used for postoperative pain control. The
authors recommend that these drugs be avoided in the early postoperative period."
"...and I can honestly say that if I had to make the choice over, I'd do it again in a heartbeat." And I sincerely hope you still feel that way 5 years from now. Keep a postitive attitude ;-)
In Reply to: Re: 18% chance that you get the luxury of doing it again :-( posted by David Ferguson, D.C. on June 22, 1998 at 20:14:47:
I realize this is off the subject, but since you appear to be somewhat knowledgeable in the area of spinal problems, do you have any stats on the subject of using Harrington Rods for the correction of vertebrae fractures? Any info you could offer would be GREATLY appreciated!!!!
In Reply to: Re: 18% chance that you get the luxury of doing it again :-( posted by aj on June 23, 1998 at 16:20:45:
Knowing the mortality and morbidity rates should be accessable through your surgeon. Outside presenting scientific data I can't really tell you much based on the fact that my formal training is not in this area. I can tell you to NOT be afraid to corner your doctor and DEMAND the information that you want.
It does make sense to me to have them removed once the areas have healed significantly. The costs of having them there for extended periods of time outweigh the risks of having them removed, in my mind. It doesn't always seem that way because the risks of leaving them in are a slow and chronic process. This is something, again, that should be completely up to you and your surgeon. Hope some of this info is what you are looking for.
Title: Reduction of Bone Retropulsed Into the Spinal Canal in Thoracolumbar Vertebral Body Compression Burst Fractures: A Prospective Randomized Comparative Study Between Harrington Rods and Two Transpedicular Devices
Sixty-seven patients with acute thoracolumbar compression burst fractures were randomized into three groups and operated on using Harrington rods, the AO internal fixator, or the posterior segmental fixator. The reduction of the fragments retropulsed into the spinal canal was assessed from preoperative and postoperative computed tomographic scans. The best spinal canal clearance was obtained with Harrington rods.
Spine Vol 20 No 15 1995
Late neurological complications of Harrington-rod instrumentation.
Hales-DD; Dawson-EG; Delamarter-R
Div of Orthopaedic Surgery, University of California,
J-Bone-Joint-Surg-Am. 1989 Aug; 71(7): 1053-7
From our patients who had idiopathic scoliosis, we identified a subset of
eighteen in whom Harrington rods were used for fixation down to the fifth
lumbar vertebra. In five of these patients, low-back pain, sciatica, and
other neurological problems developed at two to thirty-two months after
arthrodesis. These complications were caused by migration of the caudad
hook into the spinal canal. The migration was probably caused by a
combination of lumbosacral lordosis and mobility of the fifth lumbar
vertebra (the most caudad mobile segment) on the segment below, resulting
in weakening of the lamina of the fifth lumbar vertebra. After removal of
the hardware, all patients had improvement of the lumbosacral and
radicular pain as well as resolution of the neurological abnormalities.
Spinal mobility and deformity after Harrington rod stabilization and
limited arthrodesis of thoracolumbar fractures.
Dekutoski-M-B. Conlan-E-S. Salciccioli-G-G.
Southeastern Michigan Regional Spinal Cord Rehabilitation Center,
J-Bone-Joint-Surg-Am. 1993 Feb. 75(2). P 168-76.
The results were reviewed for thirty patients in whom a thoracolumbar
fracture had been treated with a Harrington rod placed three segments
cephalad and two or three segments caudad to the injured vertebra and a
short arthrodesis with removal of the Harrington rod after at least
twelve months. The patients were evaluated with clinical examinations,
lateral radiographs made with the spine in flexion and extension, and
questionnaires at a median of thirty-two months after the stabilization.
All of the arthrodeses were successful. The twenty patients who had a
burst or compression fracture and who had posterior instrumentation lost
only an average of 9 degrees of sagittal correction before attaining a
solid fusion. For all thirty patients, the average motion in the sagittal
plane at the vertebrae that had been spanned by the Harrington rod but
not included in the arthrodesis ranged from 9 degrees at the third and
fourth lumbar level to 2 degrees at the eighth and ninth thoracic level.
The average total motion between five vertebrae that had been spanned by
the rod but did not have an arthrodesis was 24 degrees; between four
vertebrae, 23 degrees; and between t
In Reply to: Re: 18% chance that you get the luxury of doing it again :-( posted by David Ferguson, D.C. on June 22, 1998 at 20:14:47:
Thanks, Doc Dave!
Once again you are saying what needs to be said in the way it needs to be said.
All any of us have said is that there are safe & effective alternatives to surgery and that the majority of surgeries are NOT "successful". Of course, those who throw the dice and come up winners are convinced that they did the right thing & frequently, are willing to do it again. Many do not even realize that with each surgery the % success goes down.
ANY thinking person (lay or professional) knows that surgery does nothing about WHY this is a chronic condition.
Walt
In Reply to: Re: 18% chance that you get the luxury of doing it again :-( posted by David Ferguson, D.C. on June 23, 1998 at 23:41:43:
Thank you so much for the info and for the time you took to reply to my question!!!!! I truly appreciate it! By the way, my husband's Harrington Rods have fractured. I plan to go over this info with my husband, then hopefully have a thorough discussion with a physician...a neurologist?
In Reply to: Re: 18% chance that you get the luxury of doing it again :-( posted by aj on June 25, 1998 at 12:52:12:
Tell your husband to hang in there.
Usually an orthopedic surgeon is the person who handles this sort of thing. Find a health professional who you really trust and ask them who the "best" in your area is.
Best of luck!
In Reply to: Re: 18% chance that you get the luxury of doing it again :-( posted by David Ferguson, D.C. on June 22, 1998 at 20:14:47:
Actually, my doctor DID warn me of the possibilites of getting better, staying the same, or getting worse--at least 3 times. Considering that my chances of getting worse were significantly slimmer than the chances of improving or staying the same, I considered it reasonable to take the chance. If I got better, great. If I stayed the same, nothing was lost. The fact that this was a caged fusion rather than a "rods-n-screws" fusion also influenced me. I'm still doing quite well and expect to continue doing so.
All of this was AFTER having spent MUCH time under chiropractic care and some time in physical therapy--neither of which helped significantly.
My name is Edith and I had a cervical fusion at C-5 and C-6 with a hip bone graft and a metal plate. I am 26 years old and I had the surgery almost nine months ago. Before I had the surgery, I had chronic devasting neck pain along with pain and weakness down my left shoulder, arm and left leg. All of this pain occured because of a car wreck four years ago. I went to three neurologists, one pain specialist, one family physician, and a chiropractor. Also, I went through years of physical therapy and massage therapy. While drugs and massage therapy helped my pain at times, the pain never left for even one day. Eventually I found a orthopedic surgeon who after initially seeing me years ago recommended a cervical fusion. While I actually felt worse after surgery then with the bad disc for six months, now I feel better than I have in years and my surgeon says I will continue to improve over the next six months. The recovery period is long, for me a year and a half, but at last, I am seeing the light at the end of the tunnel. If the pain is bad enough to go through the surgery and recovery period, then you have to do it. Personally, at times, I didn't want to keep living in the pain I was in and my pain was very hard on my family. I am so glad I had this surgery and my life will soon be relatively pain free.
In Reply to: Re: spinal fusion patients please respond posted by Edith on June 25, 1998 at 00:12:07:
Thanks Edith and congratulations on your being one of the minority that CAN report benefits.
NOW, while you are feeling better, is the very best time for you to become a student of WHY people get things like this. Your surgery did NOTHING about those whys. What is to prevent those ignored whys to take you through this all over again in the future?
The fact that it has taken you so long to respond to the surgery just proves that those causes are still operating.
Walt
Dear Dr Stoll,
After many years of back pain, I recently was diagnosed with L4-L5 disc prolapse. My question is, do you think a chiropractor could help me? I actually did seek help about 10 months ago, but it made the pain alot worse & thats when I started experiencing the pain down my right leg,also since then my back is constantly "cracking" whenever I move{also I dread the whole neck thing].Anyway needless to say I stopped going, now I'm wondering if maybe this just wasn't the dr. for me and I should try it again. I really value your opinion. Thank you. Nikki
In Reply to: Disc prolapse posted by Nikki on June 26, 1998 at 00:05:11:
My unsolicited opinion. Yes, you may very well be helped by a chiropractor. It sounds as though the first one WASN'T for you, by a long shot. Much will depend on how prolapsed the disc is. Discs can't do anything by themselves so there has to be a force causing the problem. Since there is a vertebrae above and below it is obviously those vertebrae forcing the disc. They put an abnormal force onto the disc and a buldging begins to occur. Correct those vertebrae and most of the time your body can heal the disc. (Side note: 40% of the general population, with no back pain, have a buldging disc in the lumbar spine.) Read up on skilled relaxation to help things move along more quickly.
Let me know what town you are in, or near, if you want some help picking out a chiropractor.
The Av-Med Study
This study included 80 patients, each of whom was previously treated by a medical doctor and subsequently referred to the
Silverman Chiropractic Center. Of these 80 patients, 21 % had been diagnosed with disc problems, 5% received emergency
room treatment and 12% had been diagnosed as requiring surgery.
Following chiropractic treatment, no surgery was required. 86% needed no further treatment at all. And the projected savings on the patient study group was approximately $250,000.
The Av-Med Study, 1993.
Nine of ten chiropractic users felt their treatment was effective.
The Gallup Organization, 1991.
"Chiropractic patients were three times more satisfied with their care than patients of family practice physicians."
Western Journal of Medicine, 1989.
In Reply to: Re: Disc prolapse posted by David Ferguson, D.C. on June 26, 1998 at 09:07:45:
Thank you David,
I appreciate and further seek your advice on finding a reputable chiropractor. BTW I live in Miami. Thank you in advance, Nikki
In Reply to: Re: Disc prolapse posted by Nikki on June 26, 1998 at 09:55:54:
1. Jeffery Greenberg, D.C.
2. Alan Mandell, D.C.
3. Raphael Rodriguez, D.C.
All in Miami.
I don't know any of them personally and made my judgement based on what adjusting techniques they claim to use. Don't be afraid to call them and just talk to get a feel of who you like best. They are in the order of who I would personally go see first.
In Reply to: Disc prolapse posted by Nikki on June 26, 1998 at 00:05:11:
Dear Nikki,
Please not only pay attention to Doc Dave's excellent advice but pay attention to the one line he put in about skilled relaxation.
In MY experience, Chiropractic is one of the important ways to help with this problem. However, I know of no approach that will reliably resolve this problem--in the long run--without doing the skilled relaxation regularly.
Walt
Lorie, my husband has had several spinal fusions, L3-S1, done back in the 80's. He initially had Steffi bolts, they have since been removed, except for a portion of one that broke and remains in the spine. He broke his back 14 years ago, and has been dealing with the pain since. Now he is diagnosed with degenerative disc disease, and no one will touch him. He has pain which radiates from the fusion sites down his hips and into his legs. Good days (which are rare) he's 5'9", most days 5'0". I hope somewhere out there in cyber-land there's hope...he'll never get BETTER, but somehow there has to be a way to stop the pain and regression. Jer takes 100 mg of methadone, which really makes a difference in his functionality (the guy's 41 yrs old and a bull in a China shop....tends to hurt himself, ya know?).....he's been through all the Tylenol w/codeines, darvocet, percoset, MS Contin and Dilaudid.....this one at least keeps him from viewing the world thru his KNEES. I'm on-line here and there, iff you have any thing to share, give a holler! Just know, you AREN'T alone.
In Reply to: Re: Spinal fusion 7 mo ago problems with severe leg aches posted by Kathie Lech on June 28, 1998 at 14:43:34:
Dear Kathie,
It is still not too late for you both to learn what he should have been told right back in the beginning.
Use the link: spinal archives and read everything you can find (including references) about spinal conditions frequently surgerized.
THEN, if either of you have questions, write again.
Just because "to a hammer, everything looks like a nail" is no reason for conventional mediciane to not offer people ALL of their options regardless of whether they are competition to the monopoly!
Walt