In Reply to: New disc procedure? posted by R. Stephens on December 10, 1997 at 21:12:23:
I'm no expert, but I have learned about two different
treatments for disk problems involving injections.
One involves injection of the disk with Chymopappaine.
This is an enzyme, and it is used to eat up the nucleosis
pulposi (sp?) so that it cannot squish out to the sides
of the disk, causing herniation or rupture. You can
search Medline for abstracts of articles about chymopappaine.
By the way this technique has been around for several
decades, but its value is still under study.
The other treatment that I have heard of is called
"reconstructive therapy". This involves injection
of collagens under the ligament bands with the goal
of strengthening the ligament bands. This is supposed
to make the spine more structurally stable, and, I suppose,
also helps keep the disk from herniating or rupturing.
This second treatment sounds like a laudable goal, but
I wonder if it works. Where can I get hard, accurate information on it?
David H. Wagner
In Reply to: herniated disc at C6-7 posted by frank cavallo on December 31, 1997 at 20:39:51:
Dear Frank,
We have discussed this problem, and related ones, ad nauseum for the past several months.
Use the search feature for this BB & read everything you can find about this (& related subjects). THEN, if you still have more questions write again.
What you need now is KNOWLEDGE not more treatments.
Walt
In Reply to: Re: New disc procedure? posted by David H. Wagner on January 02, 1998 at 00:21:21:
Dear David,
I HAD 5 bulging & ruptured discs. I have not had surgery & I have not had pain for more than 20 years. Those patients who I could convince to learn enough about it to choose something safer & more effective than surgery all had the same experience I had.
I, personally, would never consider any surgical option until I had seen a COMPETENT Pain & Stress Treatment Center in consultation. Use the search feature of this BB & read everything you can find about this subject. At least THEN you will have been exposed to your true options.
Walt
In Reply to: Re: New disc procedure? posted by Walt Stoll on January 02, 1998 at 12:08:48:
Walt,
I don't think you read my post. I had responded to a post
which asked about an injection treatment "to pump up disks".
I had responded that I knew of two types of injection
treatments-not surgeries--one being Chymopapaine, and the
other being "reconstructive therapy". I do value your opinion, so I would appreciate it if you would read my post.
I would particularly appreciate it if you would comment on
"reconstructive therapy".
I will search your BB RE finding a competetent pain & stress
center. I do have degenerated disks between L5 and L4 and
between L5 and S1, with numbness in the left foot (which
seems to be caused by a herniation in L4-5 "lateralizing
to the left"), occacional numbness in the right foot, and
recently, either mild weakness or lack of coordination
in the left leg. I have been seeing a chiropractor who seems very competent, but his arms are wearing out. Also
he seems to be more interested in his treatments than in
helping me correct t
he sources of strain and wear & tear
in my life. So I am in fact looking for new alternatives
before I have to go to the emergency room.
My latest initiative has been to buy an Inveratabod exercise
machine so that I can strengthen my lower back muscles and
abdominals while decompressing my spine, and to do so daily,
instead of whenever I visit the Chiro office. I also finally bought a lumbar support pillow for driving and sitting at my computer. If I had done that a year ago I am sure I would be much better off today.
Thanks,
David Wagner
In Reply to: Re: cervical disc fusion posted by Walt Stoll on December 30, 1997 at 10:05:01:
Walt, thanks for answering me. Wher is dr. shealys pain center and also have you ever heard of using coral in a fusion? Does it heal? can it ever heal and why would a doctor with choices of healthy bone use it anyway? Do you have any answers for me? I would appreciate your input. would you get correction surgery or wait to heal. thanks Bonnie also what is the longest heal time you have ever heard of and can this plate break? I am a nurse and I have done alot of research.
In Reply to: herniated disc at C6-7 posted by frank cavallo on December 31, 1997 at 20:39:51:
Dear Frank: I am both a rehab nurse and a case manager. Most neurosurgeons I have consulted with say that if a diskectomy is not performed within six months, then it probably wouldn't do any good. It depends upon how much nerve impingement there is and the degree of pain. It sounds like you don't have a great deal of pain. Perhaps some exercises would help. Have you had any PT? Gloria Boduch
In Reply to: Re: New disc procedure? posted by David H. Wagner on January 02, 1998 at 12:55:09:
Dear David,
I am sorry that you did not understand my medical jargon. ANY puncture of the skin is considered "surgery". Both the procedures you discussed ARE surgery. I DID read your post thoroughly.
I am sure you would find that only "surgeons" would perform what you described.
Walt
In Reply to: Re: cervical disc fusion coral posted by bonnie on January 02, 1998 at 15:31:44:
Dear Bonnie,
Nurses have always been ahead of the physicians when it comes to learning better ways to help their patients. It is the lagging by the physicians, and the reality that the way things are set up the "doctor" writes the orders, that has kept most nurses from moving into the 21st century of health care.
If you are not already a member of the AHNA (American Holistic Nurses Association) you need to be. This is your professional "in" to the solution to your problems. Call (919) 787-5191. They have a wonderful website toi which I have linked this 'site. Look at the links page & click on their 'site.
Because conventional medicine has turned a blind eye to tha actual solutions to problems like yours, all the "stuff you have read" MUST be conventional stuff. From that standpoint, you have done the best you could. However, there is no end to the problem from that path.
Call Dr Shealy's center for information. They might know of a center close to you IS competent. unfortunately, in my experie nce, at least 95% of those out there trying to emulate Dr Shealy are doing a VERY poor job. That is NOT because they are not well trained or competent. It is because combining all the talents needed for an effective center is an INCREDIBLY difficult job. Once most profesionals see how much work it is, they try to cut corners and that JUST DOESN'T WORK. One has to be an especially dedicated healer to be willing to do the work needed to create (and keep going) a wonderful facility. Call (417) 865-5940.
As you get well, please share your experiences with the BB so others who are suffering like you are do not have to do that. Most will continue to desperately throw themselves on the mercy of the current conventional paradigm. However, some will have already suffered enough so that they will start looking past the veil to the sunlight.
Since each patient responds differently to the procedures you are asking about, the surgeon is the only one who can answer the questions you have asked. That is why they make so much money: they are supposed to answer ALL of your questions as a part of the surgery. They are not just supposed to take the money & run. Unfortunately, that is exactly what most of them do. It is up to the patient to not let them get away with that.
Walt
In Reply to: Re: herniated disc at C6-7 posted by Gloria Boduch on January 02, 1998 at 21:31:33:
Der Gloria,
The advice you have gotten from the neurosurgeons reminds me of the cartoon I saw once where the docs were standing around the patient's bed. One of them said something like: "Well, we had better do something soon. While we are waiting around, he is geting better all by himself."
Pain & Stress Treatment Centers (at least the competent ones) are SO successful that the day will come soon when surgery will not be permitted until the patient has been evaluated by the P&STC.
One of the great healers of the second millenium said: "The mark of a successful physician is that one who can keep his patient amused while he gets well on his own."
When the statistics all show that the surgical approach has a track record of 1/3rd improve, 1/3rd stay the same & 1/3rd get worse after surgery, why are we so stuck on the surgical approach?
Those who do surgery earlier WILL have better stats since they catch the ones who were going to get well on their own. Remember, I have played this game for more t han 30 years.
Walt
In Reply to: Re: New disc procedure? posted by Walt Stoll on January 03, 1998 at 10:40:05:
I don't think John Trowbridge M.D. considers himself to be
a surgeon, and neither does William Faber, D.O. They
are the chief proponents of reconstructive therapy. They
inject a mixture of saline solution, "calcium with
gluconate, and lidocaine local anasthetic." The object
of these injections is to stimulate healing of connective
tissue. This is a far cry from most people's idea of
"surgery", and particularly back surgery.
You have mentioned Trowbridge's book (either on chelation
or The Yeast Syndrome) so I have to think you have
a certain amount of respect for him. I don't know the
guy. I have a book "Do What you want to do" that is full
of case histories and testimonial's, including Faber's and
Trowbridges bouts with back pain and surgery, and their
recovery through "reconstructive therapy". I am looking
for hard scientific data that shows the failures, and discusses the placebo side of blind studies.
Incidentally, what is FAANOS (Fellow of the Americ
an Academy
of Neurological and Orthopedic Surgery)? Trowbridge appends this to his title in addition to FACAM and FABRT (Fellow of the American Board of Reconstructive Therapy, sponsored by
FAANOS).
Thanks in advance,
David H. Wagner
In Reply to: Re: herniated disc at C6-7 posted by Walt Stoll on January 02, 1998 at 11:14:07:
Dea Doc, I couldn't find anything doing a search. Perhaps you can enlighten me how to get to your bulltin board.
Thanks
In Reply to: Re: New disc procedure? posted by David H. Wagner on January 03, 1998 at 13:38:18:
Der David,
If you will take the time to look into what I said about the definition of "surgery" you will find that ALL medical school graduates are called physicians & surgeons. Technically, ANY graduate of a medical school can do surgery. In practice, nowadays, we generalists send any complex surgeries to the sugreons who are board certified and have at least 3 additional years of just surgical training.
However, as you look, you will find that any piercing of the skin is classified as a surgical procedure. Actually, many manipulations are also considered surgical procedures.
I DO have respect for John Trowbridge & consider him a good friend. The names of those you mentioned are the ones you need to ask your questions of.
MY expertise is in getting people to learn WHY they have what they have so they can do something about either healing what they have OR, short of that, at least preventing any recurrence.
Walt
In Reply to: Re: New disc procedure? posted by Walt Stoll on January 04, 1998 at 12:59:52:
Walt,
Thanks again for your reply. In searching your BB, I
found a URL reference to Dr. Ongley's web site on prolotherapy. I take it that prolotherapy is basically
the same as reconstructive therapy. The web site
has a bibliography of published articles on prolotherapy,
and I intend to find the articles tomorrow at the UT medical school library in Houston. The same BB item with the URL
reference mentioned that you underwent prolotherapy?
Is so, can you tell us how well this worked for you?
By the way, I have a pretty good idea about why my back
is in the condition it is. I was injured about 10 years
ago trying to tighten up an alternator belt while in
a bent-over position. 3 days of complete bed rest and
muscle relaxants made me feel as good as new, but in subsequent years there were too many re-injuries. I have
also been very active as Chairman of the Board of Trustees
(i.e., head maintenance man) of my church and as a soccer
coach. I have finally ended
my career as a volunteer
soccer coach, and am cutting back on the physcial work I
do at church. If prolotherapy/reconstructive therapy
can actually restore some strength and stability to my
lower spine, then I will be pretty healthy and relaxed.
I gather that you regard relaxation as an important path
to recovery. I believe that there are some, or many
people, whose medical problems are caused by their stress.
Others are stressed by their medical problems. Clearly
it is important to identify the principal cause of the
problem and treat it.
Just my amateur opinion,
David H. Wagner
Thanks,
David H. Wa
Dr Walt:
The following course description is listed in our paper from our local univ.
Self Help Stress Reduction-Introduction to ONE BRAIN
Introduces how stress affects our brain, in effect
making it almost impossible to think straight. We will then learn how to muscle test and use biofeedack from the body to learn what our stress issues are. The Behavioral Barometer will be introduced to identify where on the body we carry our feelings and stress. Many stress reduction exercises will be taught to help you relax and integrate your two brain hemispheres. We will put it all together as we experience a real diffusion of negative emotions. 3 90min sessions--$42.
My question is, do you know anything about this approach? Since I just found your website last night, I have not yet read your book. I plan to order it in the am. I was wondering if this would help me with the relaxation side of the healing. I am terrible at visual imagery and I have never been able to totally relax. That
's why I don't have any problem believing in anything I've read that you've written so far. I am under the care of a naturopath in Lafayette, La. for LGS. He has me on aloe & l-glutmine but after almost 2 months, I am experiencing no improvement in the bowel symptoms. Thanks for your board. I can't believe there is actually something llike this out there for free. The naturopath and all the supplements are costing me a small fortune.
My neurosurgeon recommended that I take glucosamine and chondroitin sulfate to control cervical pain. I have found that the supplements have made my pain almost disappear. The only problem, and question, that I have is whether glucosamine and chondroitin sulfate have any side effects. When I consistently take the two supplements I experience breast pain which lasts for about a week after I stop taking the supplements. My mother-in-law also takes the supplements for her arthritis and she has noticed the same side effect of breast pain. Do you know which supplement might be causing the pain? Any information you could provide would be greatly appreciated.
In Reply to: Re: herniated disc at C6-7 posted by F. Cavallo on January 04, 1998 at 11:09:39:
Dear F.,
On the homepage (link on this page) of this 'site, at the top, there is a place to click where the word "search" is underlined (anything underlined is a link that takes you there by clicking).
You will then get a page that shows you a space to type in whatever you are searching for. You will probably have several searches: anything about herniated discs, arthritis, fibromyositis and the like. It will then list everything about what you have typed. To just go to the bulletin board, you will find on that same home page another underlined link to the bulletin board. The main reason for the search feature is that there are many hundreds of notes & responses on the BB & people tend to get lost.
Once you catch up with your own subject, you might be interested in the future just typing the most recent dates you have not yet read in the space provided for the search. The only trick is that for january 5th you would have to type january 05.
Let me know if you have more trouble. Sorry for the inco nvenience. We are trying to make this as user friendly as possible.
Walt
In Reply to: Re: New disc procedure? posted by David H. Wagner on January 04, 1998 at 14:16:45:
Dear David,
I did not have prolotherapy. My problems cleared up just by eliminating my bracing & changing my diet.
The bodymind is marvelously capable of healing an injury like you describe. It is the chronic bracing that prevents proper healing AND causes the subsequent susceptibility to re-injury. Even low intracellular magnesium can materially contribute to this susceptibility.
You need a better understanding of what stored stress-effect is. Look on the home page of this 'site (link on this page) and read the article about "Modern Medical Interpretation of Stress". There is an entire chapter about that one subject in my book (link below). Until you become a student of all this, you will not make as good decisions as you might.
I like your stuff! You are well on your way to taking back control of your health process. Now is the time for you to concentrate on gaining more knowledge.
Walt
In Reply to: Re: Epstein Barr Virus posted by William Gills on January 05, 1998 at 20:08:38:
Bill,
I think the reason Dr. Stoll wrote his BOOK is to unbaffle folks by helping them get a handle on the big picture and to give them a tremendous amount of information. I think its unavoidable if you want to get on with it, you're going to have to read the book. It's an invaluable source of everything you need to know. I sympathize with your confusion, I understand it only too well. With more information, though, you'll be able to ask the right questions. There's just no way he can give you all the information here on the board.
It is not a particularly easy journey, but a rewarding one, and you CAN cure yourself. I'm doing it.
Jim
PS No, I don't get a toaster for this testimonial.
In Reply to: Re: L5-S1 spinal fusion posted by Eric S. Albert on January 05, 1998 at 14:55:47:
Dear Eric,
Why not look into WHY you are susceptible to this kind of problem? Those facts are known, They are just not routinely shared with the patient.
Walt
In Reply to: Re: Spinal Fusion, Vicodin and CMO posted by Walt Stoll on December 30, 1997 at 09:16:39:
Hi. I'm not sure if this is the best place for this, but I
will give it a shot anyway. I am 23 years old, and had a
spinal fusion 6 months ago. Since then I have been living
on Vicodin, and the pain doesn't seem to be lessening very
much. About how much longer should I give it? I am just
very frusterated. I can't keep up with my little girl. I'm
afraid this will last forever. I have been out of work for
months, I am broke as a result, and no longer have
insurance because my job couldn't keep me. Please reply to
me e-mail if possible, anyone who might have some tips.
In Reply to: Re: Spinal Fusion, Vicodin and CMO posted by Jerry on December 27, 1997 at 22:53:33:
One more question, I appreciate the time anyone takes to
read this. I also found out I have (apparently mild) Spina
Bifida. How would this affect a spinal fusion? Might this
be adding to my pain? Are there any types of movement I
should avoid? I am very overweight, I was 272 lbs after
the surgery. I have been following a diet similar to Oprah
Winfrey's plan, and doing careful "marching in place" for
at least 30 minutes a day, I can't really do much else. I
have lost a lot, and want to keep right on losing. I am now
looking closer to normal, but want to help my back. thanks.
In Reply to: Re: epstein barr virus posted by Lindsay Jen on January 07, 1998 at 08:14:17:
Dear Lindsey,
The Epstein Barr virus DOES cause mono & it IS catching. However, as I have tried to tell people, here on the BB for years, NO ONE can "catch" it unless they have a poor immune system. Also, no one can keep it active unless the same thing is going on. I could sleep with you & I wouldn't get it. The same is true of anyone who IS healthy.
Unfortunately the definition of healthy, in this country, has so deteriorated over the years that anyone without serious symptoms is now considered "healthy".
As far back as the turn of the century, Maslow searched for ONE healthy person for 10 years & COULD NOT FIND ONE.
The concerns you have, as well as your confusion, would be cleared up just by reading a copy of my book. The resources for going as deeply as you need to go to eliminate this FAD diagnosis from your life are contained therein as well (link below).
Walt
In Reply to: Re: Spinal Fusion, Vicodin and CMO posted by moira sampson on January 07, 1998 at 13:08:36:
Dear Moira,
Sorry to have to tell you this (Your surgeon should be honest enough to have told you already.) but your surgery was a failure. Once the operative site is healed a bit (several weeks at the longest) successful surgeries are pain free.
One of the reasons I keep plugging away at trying to get people to learn about WHY they have their problem with discs & the like is that they will NEVER resolve this permanently without learning this vital information.
Walt
In Reply to: Re: Spinal Fusion, Vicodin and CMO posted by Moira Sampson on January 07, 1998 at 13:12:00:
Dear Moira,
You could save me a lot of typing if you would use the search feature of this BB & read everything you can find about your problem. THEN, if you still have questions, write again, here on the BB, so others might watch you get well.
Congratulations on your efforts to lose weight. At that weight, there is little that will ever resolve your problem. Skilled relaxation would still help but you have to get down about 150#.
Walt