Dear Robert,
First, read the response I made today to another person whose DDD had not yet reached the end stage you have.
Next, ANY competent Pain & Stress Treatment Center would have had radically different suggestions for you than the purely conventional path you have had recommended so far. I can personally recommend 2 for you to investigate.
The first was founded by a psychiatrist who had an almost identical history to yours (personally). It was his experience with the second I will mention that convinced him there was something more important to do with his training & experience than being a psychiatrist. If you call his center tell them I suggested you call. It is The Ohio Pain & Stress Treatment Center on Lane Avenue in Columbus, Ohio. The founder & still director is Ivan Podobnikar, MD, PhD.
The second one is the first one that was founded in the world & still the best. The founder & still director is Norman Shealy, MD, PhD. His center is in Springfield, Missouri at 1328 East Evergreen, 65803. Phone is (417) 865-5940.
Don't bother calling either one of these professionals unless you are ready to learn a lot & practice what they teach you to do.
A good beginning for you, to understand what you need to know to finally resolve this, would be to read a copy of my book as I recommended in the other response I referred you to.
As you get well, I would appreciate your sharing your experiences with the rest of us here on the BB. Others could be spared your experience by knowing ahead of time that there are better options out there than throwing themselves on the "mercy" of the conventional medical monopoly.
As you have mor questions, please do not hesitate to write again here on the BB.
Walt
I had a cervical disc fusion (C5) approximately 9 years ago and the symtoms are back (tingling in my fingers, numbness in both hands, weakness in arms, sleep disturbance). My doctor ordered an MRI. He stated the MRI indicated some bulging above and below the fusion. He stated that this is a normal occurance and he could not detect any compression on the spinal cord. He also indicated the existence of some arthritis. Is this bulging normal and couldn't this be a cause for the numbness, tingling, etc.?
In Reply to: cervical disc fusion posted by Rhonda on August 28, 1997 at 17:09:29:
Dear Rhonda,
The bulging is NOT normal & certainly could be the cause of your symptoms--especially in combination with the arthritis.
Your present condition is typical for when nothing is done about the causes of this combination of problems. So far the only things you have had suggested is to treat the symptoms.
The single, most important thing you need to start at once is practicing an effective skilled relaxation technique at least 20 minutes twice a day. Read about that on the home page of this website (see link at the bottom of this page).
Getting a good, total body, therapeutic massage about 3 times a week would give you some immediate results while you start doing something about learning the causes & dealing with them. You would only have to do this for a couple of weeks to get some prolonged relief. If you stop with that relief--& do nothing about the causes--the problem will just come back.
If you want to really get at becoming an expert in your own condition, write again here on the BB & I will be happy to help. You will have to learn new things & do a lot of study. There is no treatment that will resolve this. You will have to be the most important member of your health care team.
Walt
Robert,
I had a motorcycle accident in 1981 and have had severe backaches since and have been taking 8 pills a day for several years now. Only last November did I change doctors only to discover that a disk had been torn in the accident. I am scheduled for a fusion Nov 25 so I am familiar with pain medications and had taken Vicodin up until two years ago when I switched to Ultram. It works very similar to Vicodin but has less side effects and is easier on the stomach. I've also noticed that the withdrawl problems are not as severe although there are some. It's only my opinion, but I'd talk to your doctor about Ultram and see if it gives you better results than the Vicodin. I also found that the Ultram, at least for me, seemed to stay in my system longer giving me greater relief thru the night.
Good luck.
Wayne Adolf
In Reply to: Re: Spinal Fusion, Vicodin and CMO posted by Wayne Adolf on September 07, 1997 at 19:51:52:
Dear Wayne,
I couldn't resist putting my 2 cents in here since a spinal fusion, as the first recommendation after making a diagnosis of your problem, is perhaps the most dangerous, most expensive & least effective (in the long run) thing you could do.
At least, you should be seen by a competent Pain & Stress
Treatment Center in your part of the country so you would know what other options you have--& their relative effectiveness and safety. Many of these centers don't know what they are doing---during this rapidly expanding alternative to surgery. If you need any help finding a good center to see youu in consultation, let me know here on the BB & I will at least be able to tell you how to find one.
Since you have enough faith in your present docs as to volunteer to go under the knife, without looking for other alternatives, you may just ignore what I have said. If so, save this information until your problem recurs & look at it again.
Walt
In Reply to: Re: cervical disc fusion posted by Walt Stoll on August 29, 1997 at 12:10:56:
In response to your question regarding the degenerative changes both above and below your original site of cervical discectomy and fusion, this is often the case with spinal surgery. When you take and fuse two or more vertebrae together the vertebrae above and below the fused area usually compensate for the lack of motion in the area that is fused. Thus, over time there is excess wear and tear on the areas next to the fusion site. Often there is the development of bony spurs and this can cause compression of nerve roots or even worse, narrowing of the spinal canal causing pressure on the spinal cord which is called spinal stenosis. I would advise you to seek out a chiropractor who works with a conservative orthopedic surgeon so that you can try a conservative approach if possible but if need be surgery is often needed again. Please feel to e-mail me with any other questions. Massage may be helpful also, but if there is a problem with the nerve root or spinal cord, I would not expect much relief from massage other than relaxation and decreased muscle hypertonicity.
In Reply to: Re: cervical disc fusion posted by Walt Stoll on August 29, 1997 at 12:10:56:
I HAVE A BULGING DISC, AROUND MY 3RD VIRTEBRATE.
IM AM GOING THROUGH SEVERE DIZZINESS TO THE POINT OF FEELING WEEK AND NUMB.
ALMOST PARALYSED.I NEED BLOOD TO MY BRAIN OR OXYGEN ... I TRY USING ICE ON MY NECK, OR I HAVE A DEEP MASSAGE.
THESE HELPFULL USES WORK BUT, THEN IM STILL FEELING TREMENDOUS PRESSURE.
I WAS WONDERING WHAT WOULD BE BETTER.....NECK SURGURY OR AN EPIDERAL?
I DONT WANT TO SUFFER LIVING LIKE THIS. I NEED INFORMATION A.S.A.P.!!!!!
THANKS,
LILY
In Reply to: Re: cervical disc fusion posted by Lily on October 05, 1997 at 23:58:00:
Deare Lily,
Depending on how far this has progressed, you may have no alternative at thsi time except the surgery to prevent paralysis. However, if it were me, I would at least get a consultation at a COMPETENT Pain & Stress Treatment Center before I would subject myself to surgery.
If I knew what part of the country you lived in AND HOW FAR YOU WERE WILLING TO TRAVEL TO RESOLVE THIS PERMANENTLY perhaps I could refer you. Unfortunately, these have been so successful that many have sprung up, calling themselves that, & are totally incompetent.
Walt
In Reply to: Re: cervical disc fusion posted by Walt Stoll on October 06, 1997 at 13:36:03:
I have been diagnoised with a herniated disc @c4-5 I have also been told that I have arthritis I am a 55yo male & fell from a ladder resulting in a torn rotator cuff (r. side)& a herniated disc I have been fitted with a soft cervical coller with 800mgs of Motrin 3x's daily Advised to return for evaluation in 2wks. As I am very concerned about operation & success, would you recommend any other type of treatment The cervical collar & medication has only help very little Thanks for your advice Please reply ASAP!!!!
In Reply to: Re: cervical disc fusion posted by les on October 07, 1997 at 00:05:44:
I live in Richmond,Va Due to the fact that this is a Workman's Comp. case, I do not know how far I can go for treatment At this time, I have been left completly in the dark as to what the next move is in correcting the problem It has been discovered that upon falling from a ladder, I had a (R) torn rotator cuff which has been repaired thru surgery, but then the neck really stared bothering me & it was discovered by a orthopedic surgeon that I had a herniated disc @ c4-5 & cervical spondylosis @ C5-6 with narrowing of the disc space & mild narrowing of the neural forimina Combination of a soft & hard disc posteriorly & on the left side with obliteration of the anterior subarachnoid space, although there is no MR evidence to suggest coed compression Compression of the ipsilaterial nerve root sleeve cannot be excluded Cenral bulging of the C4-5 disc without cord compression This is the exact written report of the impression of the MRI Could you possibly explain it to me & give any advise I DO NOT NEED any long term disability & would like to know my options I feel if surgery will promote a faster recovery with good long term results, so be it Thank you so much for taking your time to answer this as I am VERY concerned & confused Les
In Reply to: Re: cervical disc fusion posted by Les on October 07, 1997 at 10:45:40:
Dear Les,
Call the Ohio Pain & Stress Treatment Center on Lane Avenue in Columbus, Ohio. The man you need to talk to is Ivan G. Podobnikar, MD, PhD, the Founder & Medical Director. Tell him I suggested you call and do what he says.
Then, as you get well, please share your experiences with the rest of us here on the BB. Others with your same suffering and confusion deserve to know that they do have other options.
Walt
In Reply to: Re: cervical disc fusion posted by Walt Stoll on October 08, 1997 at 15:37:24:
Walt, Thank you so much As it is 5:45est, I will make the call tommorrow morning & I will be then happy to share the info. on the BB Les
In Reply to: Re: cervical disc fusion posted by Walt Stoll on October 08, 1997 at 15:37:24:
Dear Walt, On the BB I also posted a complete word for word excerpt of the MRI report It is posted under Dr. Gary Smith on 10/7/97 @ 11:37:55 If you would care to read it & try to tell me in plain English the true meaning of the report I would be very gratefull Am trying to reach Dr. Podobniker today Thanks again Les
I had bi-lateral laminectomy on June 25,1995. I re-injured my back on May 1, 1997. I have terrible pain in my back, buttocks, and legs. I have seen numorous doctors and pain specialists, and also have had nerve blocks, and steriod injections, and physical theraphy. I am at my wits end, I cannot take the pain anymore. I have also had many different medications for the treatment of the pain, but no narcotics. I need help on what to do. Two doctors say a fusion, and one says no. I have alot of scar tissue surronding that area also. I have had Mri's and X-rays done. If you have any answers, please let me know. thankyou.
In Reply to: L5-S1 spinal fusion posted by Kari Cross on October 14, 1997 at 15:18:23:
Dear Kari,
I personally had this same problem, never had surgery & have had NO pain for the past 20 years.
As you can see from the note at the top of this page, I am on a 3 week speaking tour & will not be back to my desk till 11/3. SO, I do not have my resources at hand to refer you to where you need to go.
Please resubmit your note to me when I get home. Be thinking about how far (geographically) you are willing to go to solve this.
Walt
I also had a spinal fusion Sept 4. My vertebra had collapsed from a 4-wheeler wreck I had 2 years ago. I went through the mill trying to find a fix for it. I was operated on for 11 and a half hours, I now have 5 screws and 2 rods in my back. I'm doing well, I just stayed on pain pills for 3 weeks. Just quit them if you can. I started taking Motrin instead. Pain pills would be easier, but I've never done anything the easy way. I also had to quit smoking......which was very hard to do with already shot nerves. You can do anything you want to. Hang in there!!
In Reply to: Re: L5-S1 spinal fusion posted by Walt Stoll on October 28, 1997 at 09:53:32:
Dear Craig,
I am a thirty four year old female, and have had three L5-S1 surgeries ! The vertibra have completly collapsed now. I have degenerative disk disease, and an incredible amount of scar tissue. They say I need a fusion, which I agree after seeing that there is no disk space, but I don't know where to start looking. I have several names, and would travel anywhere to find the right dr.
I also have compression on the cord at C5-6. They want me to have a fusion there too !! I'm in physical theropy for that, and think I'll wait a while.
I would appreciate any advise you or anyone else could give me . I'm in a tremendous amount of pain.
Thank you, Tammy
In Reply to: Re: L5-S1 spinal fusion posted by Tammy Johnnie on November 07, 1997 at 08:54:50:
Dear Tammy,
If I were in that condition, I would go to the "horse's mouth" (the man who developed the first Pain & Stress Treatment Center--who the entire world is still trying to emulate). He is Norman Shealy, MD, PhD at 1328 East Evergreen, Springfield, MO 65803. (417) 865-5940.
As you get well, please share your experiences with us here on the BB so others might know that they do not have to go through what you have already suffered.
Walt
In Reply to: Re: L5-S1 spinal fusion posted by Walt Stoll on October 28, 1997 at 09:53:32:
My doctor recommended spinal fusion. However I have had several opinions from other doctors and they cant seem to find out what is causing foot numbness and pressure in my right leg and pain in the right buttocks and hip area. I've been down for a year. It doesn't feel right to have a fusion if they cant find the source of the problem. I've heard that fusions dont always work and that within several years the disk the the fusion has been fused to can become weakened and can rsult in futher surgery. If anyone has any suggestion I'm really desperate for a solution. Thanks.
In Reply to: Re: L5-S1 spinal fusion posted by Walt Stoll on November 07, 1997 at 10:55:05:
my 12 year old daughter is set to have posterior spinal fusion on January 13,98 at rainbow babies and childrens hopital,is it expected that in say 30 years she will have major back problems,and pain????will she end up needing corrective surgery in the future if this doesnt work..she has scoliosis and her curve is at 58 degrees........
Dr. Stoll, I successfully underwent a microdiscectomy between my L5-S1 in 1990 at UCLA. Three weeks ago I experienced extreme pains up and down my right leg. My orthopoedic surgeon in Bakersfield, CA is thinks I should have this disc fused. I am supposed to start a new job at the Lawrence Livermore National Lab in Livermore, CA (45 minutes east of San Francisco) on January 20, 1998. My new job involves a lot of sitting which pinches my sciatic nerve and becomes extremely painful after awhile. I am wondering whether I should have the surgery now or ask for an epidural and wait until I move to have surgery in the Bay area. Can you recommend a good orthopoedic clinic or doctor up there? Thanks for any help.
I had a spinal fusion 17 yrs ago, and am in my 40s now. I have noticed trouble over the last couple of years with lower back pain, sporadically. What is the prognosis of this surgery over a long period of time? Can stiffness develop? Or can I anticipate problems with this fusion after such a long time? Getting off the flooris difficult. Also, am having trouble sleeping because of pain in hip areas. Is this normal w/people having spinal fusions? Would appreciate your info on this. Thanks!
In Reply to: Re: cervical disc fusion posted by Lily on October 05, 1997 at 23:58:00:
I had surgery on 11/12/97. I still have soreness, stiffness, muscle spasms and a horseness in my throat(voice).
Will this decrease in time??? Do I need phsical therapy, medication, a folow up check up????
thanx
Shirlee
In Reply to: Re: cervical disc fusion posted by Shirlee Maulden-Hill on December 18, 1997 at 15:35:31:
Dear Shirlee,
ALL of these symptoms are caused by the same thing that caused your need for the surgery in the first place.
What you need now is to realize that the surgery only pared off the tip of the iceberg and the iceberg is still there.
NOW, you need to do what would possibly have prevented the need for the surgery in the first place:
1. Learn an effective skilled relaxation technique & practice it at least 20 minutes twice a day forever.
2. See a therapeutic masseur in consultation.
3. See a Rolfer in consultation.
Since I am sure Dr Ferguson will have recommendations from a Chiropractic perspective, I will let that up to him.
Let us know what you learn as you get well.
Walt
To Whomever wants to hear this one.
When I was 18 I went to a chiropractor for back pain I was experiencing. I was told that it couldn't be a "slipped disc" because I didn't have that look on my face. After 2 1/2 years of absolute agony, being treated for a stretched tendon, and 5 epidurals by an orthopedic surgeon, I went back to the chiro and he suggested an MRI which revealed two herniated discs (L4, L5, S1). Went to another orthopedic surgeon. Had a laminectomy. After two months of recovery, and a total of 5 years of Vicodin addiction, the result was a spastic colon and the use of a cane because the pain was so bad. At the age of 23, I had a spinal fusion, using my own bone. Prior to the surgery, I did extensive research at the library and found that was my only alternative. I'm 27 and walking without a cane, however, I have back pain every day but found that the best pain killer was plenty of walking and what our fellow back pain suffers love to hear, "Learn to live with it." I would love an alternative myself. But please keep in mind, that Vicodin can cause more harm than good. Good Luck and keep us posted. Thanks for listening. TLC
I have been reading the comments concerning Vicodin and spinal surgery and am somewhat surprised. I had a badly ruptured L5 disc for 2 years. I was on Vicodin for the entire time and experienced no side effects except some pain relief. About 5 months ago the pain got to the point that morphine didn't help. Consequently, I had surgery. Its been 3 months since my surgery and I still require the Vicodin. I am at a loss to understand this "Vicodin addiction" people are writing about. I am not addicted to Vicodin. I am only addicted to pain relief. The only withdrawl symptoms as for as I am concerned is return of the back pain.
In Reply to: L5-S1 spinal fusion posted by Kari Cross on October 14, 1997 at 15:18:23:
Don't worry. Help is on its way. I had two previous L4-L5 laminectomies over the past 6 years. Had a Anterior/Posterior fusion done on Sept 5th at the New England Baptist Hospital in boston. Dr. FRANK RAND. I am now 4 months post op and I think things are going well. Haven't been back to work yet. but feel the pain has subsided. Used to take narcodics daily, now only Tylenol when needed. Usually only once a day. Please IM me and we can chat.
In Reply to: Re: L5-S1 spinal fusion posted by Walt Stoll on October 28, 1997 at 09:53:32:
This is a follow up on my first letter I submitted in October to you. I had L5-S1 bi-lateral laminectomy done in June of 95. Reinjured my back in May of this year. Have terrible pain in lower, now in my upper also, in my buttocks and sometimes in my legs. I am a workcomp patient, and feel that I am getting the run around because of it. All I care about is getting better. I am 30 years old and can't sit for more than a half hour, or stand, and now my sleeping is at about 20 minutes at a time before I awake with terrible pain. I have had mri xrays and steriod injections, nerve blocks, and numerous medications, and nothing works. I always have pain and need help.
In Reply to: Re: Spinal Fusion, Vicodin and CMO posted by Jerry on December 27, 1997 at 22:53:33:
Dear Jerry,
You ara absolutely right! MANY articles from the world medical literature repeatedly document that if the person has severe pain, it is almost impossible to addict him/her to a narcotic s/he is taking for that pain.
Unfortuantely, there are many causes for pain that frequently are not addressed so long as the narcotic can keep the person relatively comfortable. In those cases, where little is done for the causes, the narcotic eventually stops being "enough" & the pain returns unless the dosage is increased. Eventually the side effects from large doses prevents the increase of dosage anymore. Then, the person has no choice but to look at the causes--something that the physician should have done in the beginning.
Since it is true that "to a hammer, everything looks like a nail" most surgeons are not likely to suggest the more effective, safer and a LOT less expensive, approaches well documented by research coming out by pain & stress treatment centers for the past 25 years.
Walt
In Reply to: Re: cervical disc fusion posted by Les on October 09, 1997 at 08:28:17:
DEAR DOC.
I HAD SURGERY APRIL 17,1997 ON MY 5TH & 6TH DISC IN MY NECK
SINCE THE SURGERY, I HAVE HAD NUMBNESS IN MY RIGHT INDEX
FINGER. AND I STILL HAVE PROBLEMS WITH MY NECK HURTING.
NOW I HAVE CARPEL TUNNEL IN MY FEET,THEY SWELL AND GET
VERY RED AND HOT AND IT FEELS LIKE NEEDLES IN MY TOES.
CAN THE NECK SURGERY CAUSE CURRENT PROBLEMS?
ANY HELP YOU COULD GIVE WILL BE MOST APPRECIATED