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Hi Dr. Stoll - I had written to you a couple of months ago about my dilemma. I have been suffering from symptoms that have been labelled as "anxiety" for the past 3 years. I have been on the whole foods diet over 2 years, started SR 7 months ago and have also been walking whenever I can (a few times a week). I had explained to you that my therapist thought my "anxiety" was being caused by my reaction to being married, and that my symptoms were psychosomatic. When I told you that I was not getting better, even after doing the 3-legged stool for 6 months, you said that this may be possible and that I must "remove my hand from the fire" in order to heal. Well, over a month ago my husband and I separated, in hopes that it would help me on my way to feeling better. Well, since then, my anxiety has been through the roof and my symptoms have been much worse. I am continuing on my 3 legged stool, but don't think that I am able to reach the appropriate level during SR because my body is wound so tightly now. I never feel relaxed and always have this feeling of extreme urgency/nervousness. I have talked to SHAPE many times and he thinks that my problem is a congested liver. My naturopath thinks it is possible, but doesn't think that I am strong enough to do a liver cleanse, as I am very week, underweight, and just feel sick all the time because of the anxiety. I have read your book a number of times, and also re-read "mind as healer, mind as slayer" yesterday. I also read through the archives again about anxiety and dysautonomia. I am pretty sure that my symtpoms are due to stress overload since I exhibit many symptoms of dysautonomia, or autonomic nervous system dysfunction, and all of this started after an extremely stressful and prolonged time in my life. At this point, I am also sure that I am dealing with LGS, because I am constantly bracing my stomach and intestines and now they gurgle and churn all the time, but this came later on. My question is this. I will be losing my job soon if I cannot get my act together and get back to work full time. I don't know what else to do to try and get my body back to normal again. I have also incorporated stretching into my routine, and I am trying to deal with any underlying issues with my therapist. At this point, I don't know if the SR is helping since I still feel very anxious while doing it. Do you have any suggestions on how I can rebalance my nervous system so that I can get strong enough to do some much needed cleansing and get the full benefits out of my 3-legged stool program. I don't know what to do and you always talk about getting away from the edge of the cliff, but I feel like I have fallen over the cliff and need a parachute. Thanks so much.
In Reply to: Dr.Stoll - still in need of some help posted by holly [1676.21] on April 08, 2004 at 07:31:55:
Hi Holly,
I have a few thoughts for you.
If you cannot do a liver cleanse, can your naturopath have you take some milk thistle or other substance that works with the liver in a slow, gentle way?
What kind of therapist are you seeing and what kind of work are you doing together?
What kind of job do you have? Is it very stressful? Could you switch to part-time work or quit the one you have and get an easier job?
Do you ever go get a relaxing, full-body massage? (Massage can be stress-reducing. You can also massage your own feet -- that can help, too.)
What do you do for enjoyment? (Enjoyment is stress-reducing.)
Do you have any friends or other supportive people in your life? Do you spend time with them?
If you only feel anxiety and wound up while doing SR, it sounds like you may not be reaching the relaxation response. (Read the glossary entry for the relaxation response.) When I was relatively new to the practice, my system was so wound up that sometimes it would take me an hour to get relaxed. May I suggest that you try longer sessions and really tune into your body (ask it gently to relax -- tell it that right now, in this moment, everything is all right and it is safe to relax for one hour).
The idea here is to tune into your body and see what exactly makes it relax. Surely at some times during your day you are more relaxed than others. Learn what that relaxation feels like, first, and then try to figure out how you can duplicate it in your SR sessions.
Sometimes when I'm trying to relax my body to fall asleep or do SR, I have to specifically guide my thoughts to help the process. I think about things that make me feel good, like taking a walk in a forest or visiting the seashore. That can help.
Do you have any kind of religious or spiritual belief, practice, or group? (Can be a good source of support.)
Do you watch the news on TV? (Very stress-producing -- I avoid it, personally.)
Sometimes it takes a while for anxiety to be alleviated even when you are doing all good things. It's okay if this process goes a little slowly. I know you want fast results, but trying to rush at relaxing is like tugging on a seedling at the roots to try to get it to grow faster. I invite you to look at everything you do as an experiment for learning which things make you feel more relaxed and which ones don't. Try to enjoy the exercise and the SR practice.
It sounds to me like you are doing many good things to help yourself, even though this feels challenging at the moment. So you are on the right track, but much of this is still new to you. If I were you, I'd find a way to alleviate the job stress if you could, and continue learning how to relax your body and relax your mind.
These are all just ideas. Find the ones that work best for you.
Best wishes,
Jan DeCourtney, CMT
In Reply to: Re: Dr.Stoll - still in need of some help posted by Happygal [11.384] on April 08, 2004 at 08:09:38:
Holly,
One more thought. Some of my clients have read the "Relaxation and Stress Reduction Workbook" and gotten some good tips about how to reduce their anxiety and increase their relaxation. It might help.
Best wishes,
Jan
In Reply to: Dr.Stoll - still in need of some help posted by holly [1676.21] on April 08, 2004 at 07:31:55:
Have you considered medication? It seems like at this point it moght be worth a short trial at least so you can keep your job.
In Reply to: Dr.Stoll - still in need of some help posted by holly [1676.21] on April 08, 2004 at 07:31:55:
Holly,
I am having the anxiety the same as you. I find that reading my bible will lull me into a relaxed state like nothing else, then I can proceed with my SR, just thinking Calm over and over, and this really helps, Juliann
In Reply to: Dr.Stoll - still in need of some help posted by holly [1676.21] on April 08, 2004 at 07:31:55:
I would try massage or rolfing. I would also just continue doing what you are doing and give it time. Sometimes things get worse before they get better! Changes don't always happen overnight, but if you understand and believe the process will work and keep doing it, the it will work.
I am also curious about something you posted - that you re-read "mind as healer, mind as slayer" yesterday. It took me weeks to get through that book and it was a long read! Did you mix it up with another book perhaps?
In any case, do you find the book helpful in understanding about stress and what you have to do? It is frustrating when you're not feeling well, but sometimes being patient is what one has to do...
Hang in there.
~~~8>
In Reply to: Re: Dr.Stoll - still in need of some help posted by labrat [29.20] on April 08, 2004 at 10:24:39:
Sorry for the confusion, I didn't re-read the WHOLE book. I had read it about a year ago, and re-read the sections yesterday that deal with the actual affects that stress has on the physical body, the parts of the brain involved, the endocrine and autonomic nervous system, etc. I have looked into rolfing, but the nearest practioner is some distance away and I have a hard time driving because of the anxiety. Also, with my job in limbo now, I can't really afford to spend the $120 per session, for 10 sessions. I may be able to find a massage therapist locally that will not cost as much, I will look into that. I completely understand what stress does to the body and am unfortunately, living proof, although I wouldn't really call it "living" at this point. It concerns me that I haven't been able to get this under control yet, because I know that harm I am doing to my body. I try to be patient, and I have been patient with this for some time now, but I no longer have the freedom to just be patient if I am going to lose my job. I believe that once I learn how to truly relax, things will start to fall into place. I have been practicing for many months now and don't feel like I have made any progress.
In Reply to: Re: Dr.Stoll - still in need of some help posted by juli [955.489] on April 08, 2004 at 09:19:25:
Thanks Juliann.
In Reply to: Re: Dr.Stoll - still in need of some help posted by dmaryd [1035.20] on April 08, 2004 at 09:09:05:
I have tried SSRI's in the past and didn't have any success with them. The side effects made me feel worse than I did already. I now take xanax just to get me through the morning. I had to start back to work part-time this week and it helps me while I am there, but I still feel so far from normal. Also, the therapist I am seeing now is convinced that I can do this without medication. I know that at some point I will be able to, but I don't think she understands how difficult things are for me right now.
In Reply to: Re: Dr.Stoll - still in need of some help - one more thought posted by Happygal [11.384] on April 08, 2004 at 08:14:29:
Jan,
Thank you so much for all the thoughts. I will answer your questions and hopefully give you a little better idea of where I am at. As far as the liver detox, I have been doing castor oil packs every day for a couple of weeks and also taking milk thistle and Apo-Hepat for months. I have not tried full body massage, but someone else suggested that and I will look into it. My therapist does Cognitive Behavioral Therapy. We work on trying to relax my body and help to get rid of panic attacks. We also work on my beliefs that help induce the anxiety. As far as my job, I love my job. I started back part time this week and I am so happy to be there, but so unhappy that I feel so crappy when I am there. It is sometimes stressful, but the minor stresses of work never used to effect me, now they send my body into a talespin. If I have a hard time working at a job that I am comfortable with and enjoy, I can imagine that trying to start a new job would be too much anxiety for me to handle. I am at the point right now where I am very agorophobic and cannot leave the house without a mild tranquilizer. So, as far as things I like to do for enjoyment, or spending time with supportive people, it is dificult for me to get out, so some of these things are not possible right now. I do things I enjoy at home like painting, writing poetry, etc. There are some times when I feel less anxiety, but never feel "relaxed". I don't watch the news, only the weather. As far as my spiritual beliefs, I do believe that my deceased grandmother is watching over me and I talk to her often, asking for guidance and strength. I pray often, too. I have read the "Relaxation and Stress Reduction Workbook" and made a guided imagery tape based on the book's suggestions. I used to use it for my meditation but after a while, was unable to relax to it, so I started using a meditation CD. I hope this helps shed some light on my situation. You have responded in the past to many of my posts and I always appreciate your suggestions. If I am not mistaken, haven't you had to deal with dysautonomia?
In Reply to: Re: Dr.Stoll - still in need of some help - one more thought posted by holly [20.308] on April 08, 2004 at 13:08:25:
Dear Holly,
I have dysautonomia too and it is a hard life as I am so very aware of all the autonomic functions that others are not. My heart skips beats and I have an arrythmia, plus hypoglycemia and hyperventilating. I take a beta blocker and it helps a lot, but is no cure. I must tell you to throw the tranquilizer away, especially if it is a benzodiazapine, it will only make you worse. I have been there, and it has ruined my life. I was very functional until Ativan destroyed me. It is a highly addicting substance and you will be addicted before you know it. I had a severe long protracted withdrawal, which gave me agoraphobia and panic, I never had that before. It is 3 years now off that poison, and I warn everyone not to take it, my life was a piece of cake before ativan, looking back. I still have the agoraphobia and am starting with a therapist that does hypnotherapy, as my mind cannot control my body these days. Take care and spend time in your bible, Juliann
In Reply to: Dr.Stoll - still in need of some help posted by holly [1676.21] on April 08, 2004 at 07:31:55:
Please listen to your therapist and get off that poison xanax, it is as bad as ativan and will give you far worse anxiety/panic than you now have. Go to www.benzo.org.uk and read, Juliann
In Reply to: Re: Dr.Stoll - still in need of some help - one more thought posted by holly [20.308] on April 08, 2004 at 13:08:25:
Hi Holly,
So what I glean for you from the dialogue are the following suggestions.
1) Try some full-body massage. Also, you can massage your own feet. Just use some lotion or vegetable oil. It can be very relaxing for the whole body.
2) See if you can find someone locally who does a form of trauma therapy called "Somatic Experiencing." You can try a search on the web. The reason I think this might help you (not even knowing whether or not you have a history of trauma) is because it is very effective at working with the physical sensations of the body, and somehow I think that would help you get more in touch with your body and release some of the tension. It's really a great technique.
3) You can also spend time with supportive people over the phone. That is one thing I do, since with my dysautonomia, I don't like to go out a whole lot either. (It makes me too fatigued.) I have a weekly co-counseling session with a friend and it really helps a lot to have that contact when I cannot get out much. I also have a few other people I talk to regularly.
4) Do they understand your situation at work? Would they be able to adapt the job to meet your situation so you would not have to worry about losing it? (i.e., decrease your stress by reducing your work load or something?)
5) How is it going with helping resolve the beliefs that induce your anxiety?
Best wishes,
Jan
In Reply to: Re: Dr.Stoll - still in need of some help posted by holly [20.308] on April 08, 2004 at 12:47:34:
Holly,
You might want to check out for practising student rolfers just out of college or in training for the rolfing sessions? They cost about $25/hour and are not that bad.
Why not try a few session( 3 to 4) instead of doing the entire 10 sessions? It does make a lot of difference even with a few sessions
NorthStar
In Reply to: Dr.Stoll - still in need of some help posted by holly [1676.21] on April 08, 2004 at 07:31:55:
Holly,
Everyone has good suggestions for you.
My first question is how did you certify that your SR technique was actually working (biofeedback).
My next i8s a comment: People in your situation always get worse, for a while, when they drastically change their living situation even though that may be the very best thing for them.
Walt
In Reply to: Re: Dr.Stoll - still in need of some help posted by Walt Stoll [9.8] on April 09, 2004 at 06:35:28:
I had my SR certified through biofeedback when I first began doing it. The problem is that now, I feel that I am not able to relax and am probably not reaching the appropriate level anymore. I hope that you are right about getting worse for a while even though it was a good thing. I hope that my body will soon adjust and back on the road to getting better.
In Reply to: Re: Dr.Stoll - still in need of some help - one more thought posted by Happygal [11.384] on April 08, 2004 at 21:02:41:
I am not sure if they completely understand my situation at work. This has been going on for 3 years, and in that time they have allowed me to work at home, so they have been very flexible up to this point. I will try talking to my boss again and more completely explain the situation and maybe that will help. Also, I have been working with my therapist a lot about my beliefs that I'm sure trigger my anxiety, hopefully that will help, too.
In Reply to: Re: To Holly posted by Juli [955.489] on April 08, 2004 at 15:41:40:
I truly understand your concerns about the benzos, expecially after going through what you have. I just don't feel that I have a choice at this point. My doctor was going to try me on a beta-blocker, but I have extremely low blood pressure so that is out of the question for me. I am completely non-functional if I do not take the benzo. I cannot drive, I am agorophobic, I get so anxious that I get to the point of throwing up. I am not just anxious when away from home, but ALL the time. If you have another suggestion instead of the benzo, I would really be interested in that. I'm sorry for the horrible experience that you had.
In Reply to: Re: Dr.Stoll - still in need of some help posted by holly [1676.21] on April 09, 2004 at 07:09:06:
Holly:
Do you think it might help if you worked with a biofeedback practitioner or somebody like that, maybe once a week for a while? They could help guide you in your relaxation, which would hopefully carry over for the other days of the week until you were able to go back. (The massage/rolfing ideas would probably really help, too.)
Also, I wanted to mention that it might be a really good idea to talk with your work about your situation (though you may want to do a little investigating first). It is possible that by law there may be some provisions they have to make for you for an illness, but I would check that part out first.
I'm including a link below to the Anxiety and Panic Hub. I know you've posted here before, but I don't remember if you have been to this site. The people who put up the site promote a relaxation technique that they feel is more beneficial for people with anxiety. It is described on the website (see Mindfulness Meditation on right-hand side) and may be easier for you to learn at this point.
Another avenue that you might want to explore at some point would be any foods/chemicals you are exposed to that trigger the anxiety. Brain Allergies by William Philpott has more info. about that.
Good luck!
In Reply to: Re: Dr.Stoll - still in need of some help - one more thought posted by holly [1676.21] on April 09, 2004 at 07:12:20:
Hi Holly,
You might not need to explain the particular details to your boss, just say something like your health care practitioner recommends that you still work part time and avoid stress for a while. Sometimes giving too much detail is not a good idea, but just make sure they know you really care about your job and are willing to do as much as you can, etc. You may not need to say anything at all unless you are feeling pressured.
Yes, keep working on resolving the old beliefs and replacing them with more helpful beliefs. It does take a while to get good at this.
Best wishes,
Jan
In Reply to: Re: Dr.Stoll - still in need of some help posted by Carol D. [634.155] on April 09, 2004 at 09:07:11:
Thank you so much. I will check out the link.
In Reply to: Re: To Holly posted by Juli [955.489] on April 08, 2004 at 15:41:40:
holly try lucinda bassetts atacking anxiety and depression
sometimes your therapist can cause you anxiety
In Reply to: Re: Dr.Stoll - still in need of some help posted by holly [1676.21] on April 09, 2004 at 07:09:06:
Hi, Holly.
I know that this info is probably buried in the voluminous SR archives but it IS there. A common experience, for those in your fix is that, as they get better, the bodymind changes and the thing that worked to get them there no longer works. I, myself, had to change techniques 3 times to continue progress.
Now that you know what the correct state feels like you likely will no longer need to "certify" your technique. Do you have the "workbook" for things to try?
Walt
In Reply to: Re: To Holly posted by holly [1676.21] on April 09, 2004 at 07:15:48:
Hi holly,
What hell life must be for you right now. I have been through exactly what you talk about, but the benzo did that to me, you are the opposite! I bet the separation is making it worse, and maybe you need a different kind of therapist. I went to a very reputable therapist, when I was extremely anxious, I was still in benzo w/d, and she made me far more anxious, by having me tell my life story, discussing my past traumas. NONE of that therapy helped and made me sicker. I now have started with a therapist that does hypnotherapy, she is not real interested in my past, but is trying to helpl me through my subconcious mind, since the conscious mind cannot control my body at this point. I hope it helps, I will let you know, look into some therapist that do reality therapy, present moment therapy, who specialize in anxiety/panic, and agoraphobia, like what we have. I will pray for you, Juliann
In Reply to: Re: Dr.Stoll - still in need of some help (Archive in SR.) Hazards of progress posted by Walt Stoll [9.8] on April 10, 2004 at 06:23:42:
Yes, I do have the workbook. I will experiment with some different techniques. Thanks so much.
In Reply to: Re: To Holly posted by jerry [20.242] on April 09, 2004 at 19:31:47:
I have been doing her tape series. I just finished the fourth tape, doing one tape a week along with the homework sessions. I plan on finishing up the program.
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