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Since we've been all talking a lot about meditation, I thought we'd discuss pro's and con's we've personally found with active and passive venues?
I know (from tons of research in the past) what the difference IS (which has nothing to do with HOW you do it but the result) ...
Active means that your end result is to scrutinize what is going on in your life/self/world.
Passive means that your end resolt is to quiet the mind.
So - if you are working on contracting muscles, and feeling stress and releasing stress - that is Active. If you are using guided visualization, that is Active.
If you are using sound or your self, to "lose" the unstill mind, you are using passive.
I've personally felt better with using a CD or breath work thus the Passive meditation.
I haven't got the knack of Active (the walking meditation, etc) that other's have also discussed.
Anyone want to add to this? Discuss? Help?
In Reply to: Active vs Passive Meditation posted by Michele [15.1774] on August 15, 2005 at 13:01:01:
Hi Michele,
Dont know if this is any use to your question, but ...
Some years ago, when I was about 24 I was in an awful relationship with a man who did not treat me right. I lived with my mum and dad at the time and spent a lot of time alone, either in my room or walking. I was an anxious person and wondered when my life would become worth living.
I, without really thinking about it, and I had of course never heard of SR and didnt know what meditation was, used to go walking alone. In the bright sunshine. I walked down a little road I knew and at the end of it was a beautiful little river with a small bridge across. There was never anyone there, just me and the bees and butterflies. I would sit down on the banks of the river and just stare and sometimes think. Mostly, I didnt think at all, I just let the ambiance embrace me. I would have a blank mind, and just look and watch at nature. I saw little frogs by the side of the river and insects hovering. I saw butterflies and there was real, real silence. I could hear nothing but croaking of frogs and the buzz of insect life. I would sit there by the river and not think at all, not of anything. My mind was completely blank. I would spend about an hour there just letting myself go and forgetting everything that was hurting me. I would then get up and walk back home.
Many, many years later, when I visited Dr Stoll's website, and went through the archives I do realise now that, without even knowing it, I was actually practicing SR. It must have been something within me that I needed to do and believe me, it kept me going in life, the life I had which was not very nice. I didnt know it at the time, but those solitary hours I spent by the river saved me.
I dont know if this helps you, but I now realise that meditation can be in many forms. The little river, the nature, the insects, the solitude and quietness, was for me my meditation.
Much love,
Maz
In Reply to: Re: Active vs Passive Meditation posted by Maz [31.1498] on August 15, 2005 at 15:58:08:
That is beautiful. it's something that according to some readings - what the Tibetans had done also...
I guess you instinctively knew what to do - in a healthy way.
In Reply to: Re: Active vs Passive Meditation posted by Michele [15.1774] on August 15, 2005 at 16:09:18:
I am a firm believer that mostly your body tells you what you need to do if you can listen carefully. I think, in those days, my body was telling me what I needed, and I just did it without really thinking about it. I am now amazed having read about SR. This was my SR.
Love
Maz
In Reply to: Active vs Passive Meditation posted by Michele [15.1774] on August 15, 2005 at 13:01:01:
I've looked into the archives for the difference in passive and active. I found two posts from Dr. Stoll that are very confusing to me, they seem to say contradictory things. In the first comment, he says the active SR uses outside influences, flashing lights, rhythmic sounds, etc. But in the second one he says passive uses outside influeces and is safe for anyone and that ACTIVE is what uses outside influences, flashing lights, rhythmic sounds, etc. Please clarify, Dr. Stoll. I'm sure it's just a mixup. Here's the posts in question below.
posted by Walt Stoll on September 20, 2001 at 09:28:12:
in reply to: Walt, does your warning include just listening to brainwave CDs, without any lights??? nmi posted by reader on September 18, 2001 at 12:39:45:
Hi, Reader.
This is discussed in the archives. Basically, there are 2 different kinds of relaxation: passive and active.
Passive is totally safe for anyone and active (aural rhythms, flashing lights, electrical stimuli) which are THEORETICALLY risky for susceptible people. I know of no one who actually has had a seizure from these but it IS theoretically possible.
Hope this helps.
Walt
posted by Walt Stoll on March 07, 2003 at 14:50:26:
in reply to: Passive vs Active Meditation posted by S.D. on March 06, 2003 at 23:43:10:
Hi, S.D.
I would have said I have archived it.
Passive is when an outside agency does it for you and the theoretical possible problems with those approaches are that a seizure could be precipitated in a susceptible individual. Examples are flashing lights, low level electrical stimuli, rhythmic sounds and the like.
Active is when one does it all by themselves. This takes more effort and that is why there are so many passive approaches on the market.
Hope this helps.
Walt
In Reply to: Re: Active vs Passive Meditation PLEASE CLARIFY Dr. Stoll posted by Carol [1362.1351] on August 15, 2005 at 18:00:52:
Hi Carol,
I had him clarify this for the book.
Active are the SR methods you do yourself, like meditation, self-hypnosis, etc.
Passive are the ones where you use something outside of yourself to do the job (Cds, sound & light machines, etc.). You are passive, the machine does the job.
I'm not sure what Michele is talking about in terms of active and passive meditation. That might be a different concept altogether than what Walt presented for doing SR. Actually, I've never heard of active meditation or passive meditation. Maybe I have something to learn here?
Best wishes,
Jan
In Reply to: Re: Active vs Passive Meditation PLEASE CLARIFY Dr. Stoll posted by Carol [1362.1351] on August 15, 2005 at 18:00:52:
Only because most of the archives are not provided by scientific evidence, but more of testimonials. for the latter, or for alt ideas, I do look there.
If you would like the links I looked at I will try to grab them for you -
Want them?
In Reply to: Re: Active vs Passive Meditation PLEASE CLARIFY Dr. Stoll posted by Happygal [2062.2033] on August 15, 2005 at 18:10:51:
I researched a lot of sites and none clarify active and passive in this way.
This may be HIS view of it - or a few views maybe - but the norm is not this.
In Reply to: Re: Active vs Passive Meditation PLEASE CLARIFY Dr. Stoll posted by Happygal [2062.2033] on August 15, 2005 at 18:10:51:
Hi Jan,
From what you stated, it really doesn't make sense. how could something that was delinated years before CD's include something like CDs? For instance, hearing a babbling brook while meditating and putting on a CD are both "hearing" but according to what you state - one would be passive, and one would be active?
I looked at MANY sites outside of this one - and the same answers repeated themselves. Active and passive have to do with the end result - not so much HOW you get there.
Here are some links & excerpts
"Passive meditation is the first phase in the meditative process and, unfortunately, many do not progress very far beyond this elementary stage. The student is first taught how to focus attention on an object or an idea. When some degree of success is achieved and the surrounding physical and emotional distractions are beginning to fade into the background, a certain euphoria, or sense of well-being, steals over the aspirant. This is generated in part by the feeling of lightness which results when the attention moves away from the physical-emotional levels and in part by the flow of soul force into the personality which inevitably follows when the mind reaches upward. The normal tendency is to bathe in this sense of well-being, to enjoy it, and many never go beyond this level. Instead of seeking further, they passively submit to whatever energy flows come their way, and soon are lost in a dream state. Unfortunately, a great many meditations, which start out well, end in just this way, in dreamland.
Active meditation starts out the same way, but at a certain point changes direction. The chief difference is that the one meditating never relaxes his control, never lets his thoughts drift. Thus, he never falls into a dream state and the higher contacts he makes do not present themselves as stories or vague dreams, but as ideas and inspirations that come clear-cut into his consciousness. But more than this, he actually works to achieve certain worthwhile objectives and is well aware that he is so working.
Active meditation has three stages, each progressively higher and more difficult. These may be defined as:
Concentration
Visualization
Creative building
.
Concentration: is the foundation stone. It is basic to all successful meditation. Each aspirant must first be taught, must in fact teach himself, how to concentrate. Many young people have unusual powers of concentration particularly upon projects which interest them, but unfortunately lose them when exposed to the attractions and distractions of life today. Most students find they must learn all over again just how to concentrate and in learning find that it takes a great deal of energy and a great deal of control to concentrate properly. All meditation starts with concentration, but when the concentration begins to relax and the mind begins to wander, the student slips into passive meditation. Only when a high level of concentration is learned and maintained will the meditating one find it possible to pass on to the next and more difficult stage which is:
Visualization: Everyone, or at least everyone we come in contact with, can visualize to a degree – and does. But complete and coherent visualization is beyond the ability of most people. This is a skill which requires training and effort, more effort than the average man is willing or able to put forth. Yet the art of proper visualization is the clue to all successful esoteric work. Many students are of the opinion that meditation is just thinking about a thought or an object or an idea. It is this, yes, but it can also be a very urgent activity which involves not only thought but also other work like visualization and creative building. Visualization is the technique of casting a picture on the eye of the mind. This picture should be clear and it should be in as much detail as possible, the more the better. A clear, accurate and detailed picture maintained in the mind's eye for a minute or two has a very powerful tendency to project itself into a physical manifestation. Once a certain amount of skill in visualization is acquired, the student is then ready for the next step in the meditative process, which is :
Creative Building: Energy follows thought. We have been taught this and most of us have observed this law in action. All thought is by its nature creative. However, most thoughts are too fleeting and too indistinct to register even the faintest impression upon the sluggish elements of the physical world. In order to learn how to build creatively, we must first acquire the technique of arresting thought and holding it in a definite form long enough for it to make an impact upon the physical. This is accomplished by the process of visualization. But for real success in creative building, an additional sophistication is necessary. The would-be creator must understand that a good visualization is only a part of the process and since he is dealing with energies he must learn how to lay hold on these energies, manipulate them and direct them. For this thought is used, but skill is only acquired after a certain sensitivity to energy is developed along with a sense of mental direction.
All of us are being taught daily to react and respond to the impacts of energy. Gradually an awareness of energy as a cause of physical effects comes to us and we begin to see the true causes of the events that take place in our everyday lives. This is the beginning of a sensitivity which can be developed within us if we are conscious of it and work at learning about it. And once awareness comes, then training in the conscious manipulation of these energies, psychic energies, can be begun, a sense of psychic direction developed and successful creative effort accomplished. Creative workers in Hierarchy perform all three of these tasks simultaneously and proceed onward to higher forms of meditation.
But we must first learn these forms one by one, step by step. First to concentrate, then to visualize and finally to direct. This is the pattern for meditation. When we learn it and begin to achieve a skill in its practice, success will come and we may then qualify as an active co-worker with Hierarchy.
Joseph J. Weed"
http://www.kheper.net/topics/meditation/Kabbalistic.htm
"1) The first method entails centering and settling one's consciousness on the general sense of an idea, while passively withdrawing from all thoughts, feelings and body sensations. The meditator disengages and contracts the mind, and in no way increases the breadth or detail of understanding. This is done by fixating on a point of awareness in an uninterrupted stream of consciousness for approximately half an hour, which brings the person to the general state of "airy vision." (This may take weeks or months of preparation to accomplish)." and for the second they state...
"2) The second method demands detailed, broad and deep comprehension, as opposed to withdrawing from the intellect. This process requires intense mental exertion to increase one's awareness of the open, simple and revealed meaning of the idea; to scrutinize and elaborate on the concept's many details, facets and ramifications, and not to allow the mind to contract and settle on one point alone. The indications for the second type of meditation are profoundly different than the indications for the first type. There is no passive dissipation of the energies of the body, heart, and mind whatsoever; but rather, there is active exertion, concentration and channeling of all the person's powers into the mind. This intense mental exertion is so all consuming that the person has no sensation of "self" at all. The awareness achieved through active thought-meditation is very different from the consciousness reached through passive meditation, where the person is susceptible to imaginings, vain visions and futile delusions. To the contrary, the person enclothes the idea in many metaphors and analogies until it is thoroughly comprehended and the truth can be perceived vividly through the mind's eye."
and...
2. 1 - PASSIVE MEDITATION
- It is recommended that you wear large clothes, pyjamas, sportswear, hostess dress, Arab djelaba, etc... and no tight underwear in order for the energy to flow freely.
- Sit near a window or a door with window in it, in order to be in the natural light which will help to recharge yourself with energy, and which will also be used by the spirit-helpers.
- Close your eyes during all the meditation.
- Now, do some deep breathing, and visualise that, on each exhaling, you are releasing you of your daily concerns, all your troubles, all your problems. Just feel relaxed from your toes to your head, and be at peace.
- Now, visualise, OUT OF YOUR BODY, and IN FRONT OF YOU (at 50 CMS maximum) a water fall, a pool or a lake, or any inert object (crystal, paperweight, ...) , or at 20 CMS the face of your spirit-guide.
- Concentrate on this visualisation, and keep the same visualisation in your mind: it is the "visualisation in loop". Be sure that you don't fall asleep.
- In case you have chosen to visualise your guide's face, imagine that his face approaches more and more until it is near your face, then visualise that he has integrated into your face, that you feel him under the skin of your face, your forehead, your cheeks, and your throat.
Stay in meditation for at least a half an hour. One meditation in the morning, one in the evening is recommended. While you will sit this way, every day, doing nothing apart from making the "let go" (total relaxation of your body and of your mind), and keeping your visualisation in loop, in fact, you give your spirit-helpers the chance to train themselves with your energy, and check their compatibility. It is said that a team of 200 to 300 spirits is needed for the development of only one medium! The spirit-helpers who will be the most attuned with your energy and with your personality, are the ones that you will easily hear clairaudiently, and this will be important at the beginning, because these are the ones who will be sent by the others to convey their instructions. They will talk to you during the day, or during your sleep, or just during the very first seconds after you awake in the morning and that your consciousness has not yet put up a barrier.
One day, when the team of spirit-scientists, physicists, chemists, spirits-mediums, etc... will be ready, they will succeed in anestheziing their student, then the trancing/channelling will begin...Patience and commitment are essential.
2.2 - ACTIVE MEDITATION
Active meditation enables the wakening of the kundalini, i.e the free circulation of energy in the 14 meridians of the physical body.
2.2.1 - SWINGING THE TOP OF THE BODY
Perhaps, some of you have seen on the television, some reports on the Tibetans Monks. You must have noticed that while they sat on the floor, they were swinging their bust and their head, forwards and backwards 5-6 times, then sideways from right side to left side 5-6 times. When they swing their head sideways, their head is inclined on each shoulder. The total movement of swinging is making a shape of a cross, with identical length for the four branches of the cross. Then they begin again, swinging forwards and backwards, etc... The movement never exceeds 45 degrees from the vertical position, and follows the rhythm of 2 seconds from one side to the other. Even, if these monks are talking to someone, or if they are reading, or repeating short mantras in rhythm (concentration exercise in loop), they keep swinging the top of their body in rhythm too.
This swinging was already reported in the antiquity, in Greece, among the Maenads, and the Branchids of the Delphes temple. They were also whirling and were throwing their head back. The ancient Norse were also using these techniques for their development.
The young muslim pupils, sat on the floor in the mosques, or in Koranic schools, are swinging their bust while repeating the verses of the Koran. The Jews are also swinging the top of their body. The same for the Turks, the Orthodox Greeks of Athos Mount, some Orthodox Russians, the Shamans of Altaï (Siberia), the Shaman Bohns of Himalayas, the Hindus Yogis, Swamis and Brahmans, the Jaïnists, the Tziganes of East Europe.
2.2.2 - ROTATIONS OF THE HEAD
Rotations of the head, in concrete terms, improves the vision of the physical eyes, but also improves the inner vision (the 3rd eye), and have a direct impact on the circulation of the energy.
The ancient Egyptian Priests, to develop their mediumship and to be able to communicate with "the world of eternal life", were swinging the top of their body sideways, and forwards and backwards, and were making also the rotation of their head, thus forming an Egyptian TAU cross with these movements.
The religious in Zoroastrian temples are still practising these movements; the same in Java Island. The Mongol Shamans provoke their trance by quick rotations of their neck, during long hours. The Brazilian trance mediums (Macumba) are also using the quick rotation method.
2.2.3 - SPINNING ALL THE BODY TO THE FEET
Before the complete spreading of Islam to the Arab countries, the Isawiyya Brotherhood, founded by Sheikh Abu Abd Allah Sidi Muhammed, ben Isa as-Sofiani al Mukhtari, was already practising rhythmic bending and swaying as spiritual practices to develop its members. Then, later on came the practices of the Sufis.
The Whirling Derviches of Konia (Turkey) practice the rotation of ALL their body, with a rhythm of 2 seconds per turn, with their arms open for the equilibrium, i.e about 30 turns/ a minute. The seance last three quarters of an hour to one hour.
a) Rasputin's way :
He told us to hold a pink crystal (round or egg shape) in the left hand, and to keep the left hand down along the body, and to hold another crystal of any kind (round or egg shape also) in the right hand, and to raise the right hand toward the ceiling, and to whirl anti-clockwise about 7 times, before to sit and make our daily meditation.
It is fundamental to breath slowly, holding the breath during the swings or the spinnings.
Rasputin was a product of the Siberia of the Shamans. Rasputin was a member of a group of Monks called "The Khlystis" who were living in Verkhoture Monastery. These monks used to go into the forest to whirl like the Whirling Derviches, and to practice trance mediumship. Rasputin visited Athos Mount, Greece and Jerusalem to complete his training.
2.2.4 - WHY SPINNING ANTI-CLOCKWISE ?
The spinning has to follow the same direction as the rotation of the Earth. The Earth is rotating from West to East.
- For people living in the Northern Hemisphere, the rotation of the Earth (and also of the air and sea movements) is anti-clockwise; so if they want to do spinning-vortex visualisation, or if they want to whirl, they must do it anti-clockwise.
- For people living in the Southern Hemisphere, the rotation of the Earth (and the movements of the air and of the seas) is clockwise; thus, the spinning meditation or the whirling have to be clockwise.
Following the rotation of the Earth enables to speed up the atoms and all the etheric particles forming a vortex around the body meet no resistance (Coriolis effect).
2.2.5 - WHY SWINGING OR SPINNING ?
The common explanation is that these practices release a certain amount of adrenaline which induces altered state of consciousness. The adrenaline plays it 's role too, but the main reason is to be found in the movement of the liquids.
- Rotations of the head create a whirl of the Cephalo-Rachidian liquid in which the brain is bathing, which cleans it, and nourishes it, improving it's functioning.
- Swinging also sets the Cephalo-Rachidian liquid in motion, and the Endo-Lymphatic liquid in the internal ear is also set in motion. The vertigo which appears, if the movements of the head are too sharp, is the proof of it.
Nutrition of the brain has a particular mode, and the Cephalo-Rachidian liquid ensures the essential of it; blood circulation brings to it only an extra contribution. This Cephalo-rachidian liquid is partitioned into two main masses detailed below:
- a curved layer in surface, in between the skull and the grey substance;
- and a central mass in the lateral ventricles which communicate together.
Because of the disposition of these liquid masses, they are infinitely more sensitive to movements than the vascular network where the blood flow is fixed like wagons on railway tracks.
Quite obviously:
a) the superficial layer of the Cephalo-Rachidian liquid is displaced by the head rotations;
b) the two lateral deep masses of liquid , which communicate to each other, are moved by the sideways swinging (from right to left, and vice-versa);
c) the liquid, in which the marrow and the central ventricle are bathing, is set in movement mainly by the forward and backward swinging.
Also backward swinging stimulate all the back area of the brain. Forward swinging (which are also the movements of the Muslim prayer) bring the Cephalo-Rachidian liquid and also the blood, in the forehead and on the top of the brain.
These swingings, if assiduously practised, have mystical effects on the consciousness state, and this was well known at the time of Jesus, as they are still known in Asia Minor.
A handyman has built a spinning chair, other people are using spinning beds, all of these materials are also efficient. Don't hesitate to accompany your children on the spinning rides at the fair!
and...
http://faculty.weber.edu/molpin/healthclasses/1110/bookchapters/progressivechapter.htm
and...
In Reply to: Re: Active vs Passive Meditation posted by Maz [31.1498] on August 15, 2005 at 16:16:07:
SR is a lighter form of meditation - or at least a compile of many forms from many areas. I myself, like the good ol' fashioned ancient tibetan buddhism...of which you displayed to know without realizing it; which really gives light that you are probably at a closer level to yourself than some of us who need to read and research to relax and get in touch with ourselves!
In Reply to: Re: Active vs Passive Meditation posted by Maz [31.1498] on August 15, 2005 at 15:58:08:
That was beautiful, Maz... almost felt like SR just reading it..
In Reply to: I never look in archives for research posted by Michele [15.1774] on August 15, 2005 at 18:23:56:
I look in archives more or less for Dr. Stoll's comments but testimonial of live human beings is not to be taken lightly. I like to see what works for real people and what doesn't work. Scientific evidence is good, just not as personal. But yes, sure, any links you'd like to provide would be great.
In Reply to: Re: doesn't really make sense. - and I know Exactly what I meant. posted by Michele [15.1774] on August 15, 2005 at 18:39:14:
Hi Michele,
We're talking about two different topics here.
You're talking about meditation. As we discussed earlier this week, my understanding is there are many different kinds with many different goals. Your post with the excerpts talked about some kinds called active and others called passive.
The original question, and my answer, were about skilled relaxation. Skilled relaxation is a term that I think Walt coined to describe the goal of reaching an alpha or theta brainwave. He divided the different ways of getting there into two types: Active meaning the participant does the activity, or passive which means the person uses some kind of gizmo or tool to induce the desired brainwave. There are many active forms and many passive forms. Meditation is an active form because the person does it oneself.
Thus, a person desiring to practice a form of Skilled Relaxation that does not use a mechanical device could choose meditation. Then, after the individual chooses meditation, he/she could decide what type of meditation to do--it could be active meditation or passive meditation as you define them.
Does this make sense?
Best wishes,
Jan
In Reply to: Re: Active vs Passive Meditation PLEASE CLARIFY Dr. Stoll posted by Carol [1362.1351] on August 15, 2005 at 18:00:52:
Thanks, Carol.
You are right! I do not know how this could have slipped through but in the first article you have below the active and passive are reversed.
Now, I will have to find out how this can be corrected (BILL).
Walt
In Reply to: Re: Active vs Passive Meditation PLEASE CLARIFY Dr. Stoll posted by Happygal [2062.2033] on August 15, 2005 at 18:10:51:
Thanks, Jan.
The distinctions are important. Trust me.
Walt
In Reply to: Active vs Passive Meditation PLEASE CLARIFY Dr. Stoll BILL? posted by Walt Stoll [93.1889] on August 16, 2005 at 10:14:32:
I corrected the archive, reversing passive and active.
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