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Hi,
To HY - On reading some of your posts I get the impression that you do not agree with taking vitamin and mineral supplements for general health maintenance. Am I right?
To Dr Walt - I think I read that you take supplements, although I don't know what. Am I right?
If I'm right I'd like to know why you two have differing views on health maintenance. Can we have a debate on this?
I feel that we should get everything we need from our food, but we know of course that we don't. So, I take numerous supplements. What concerns me is that I may be doing myself harm - after all, these tablets and capsules are not natural - they are manmade and who knows what are the correct amounts and over what period.
On the other hand, many eminent scientists and professors advocate very high doses of vitamins - eg. Linus Pauling.
I'd like some feedback on this if anyone's interested.
Maz
In Reply to: To HY and Walt - Supplements posted by Maz on November 27, 2002 at 08:27:07:
I don't feel that I need suppliments Unless
they do something for me to help me function.
I didn't believe in them before and only when
I found out that I had deficencies because of
a chemical injury did I try different ones
only a few have helped and I only take them
when needed or trying to see if they will
help my functioning. If they stop or aren't
needed then I stop taking them.
I have found that even taking things that
helped for extended periods, didn't stop a
problem they helped if I stoped taking them
the day before so I figured that they must be
needed when they Are needed and they don't
store or maybe I don't utilize them or
something blocks them from circulating. I
don't know and I forget to take them if they
aren't doing something but like you said,
What if they could do some damage and I am
making it happen ? I can't see taking
anything because someone Says that I should.
What if 99.9% of the people should but I am
in that .1% or if what I am taking isn't
good ?
I take things that a small % of others
shouldn't because they help and don't hurt
me but that makes think about what I may be
sensitive to and wouldn't it be dumb to hurt
myself because someone thought Everyone
should take or do something because they need
it ? Been Seeing Gary Null on TV and wonder
who else should eat what he does ? He claims
Everyone But he said he had a Lot of
allergies that the things help. I Don't have
them so should I do what he does ?
Would be nice to do diagnostics and see
what I needed but then maybe something I am
low in might be normal or healthier for me.
If something helps me function I will take
it and if not I won't.
In Reply to: To HY and Walt - Supplements posted by Maz on November 27, 2002 at 08:27:07:
Hi Maz,
"What concerns me is that I may be doing myself harm - after all, these tablets and capsules are not natural - they are manmade and who knows what are the correct amounts and over what period."
I totally agree with this statement. Here's another thought -- there's a lot of things that if you take them externally, the body stops making them and you become dependent upon them.
Therefore, if I take anything, I never stay on it for longer than a few months. I give it a rest and if I feel I need to take more, no longer than a few months again. That way I give my body an opportunity to communicate with me -- it'll let me know if I feel better or worse going on or off of it.
Maybe it's wishful thinking, but I think the point of taking supplements is somehow to get your body back on track, not to become dependent on them.
Sounds to me like Practicing Serious Wellness keeps the body in good condition and hopefully we won't need to take anything on an ongoing basis.
Best wishes,
Happygal
In Reply to: To HY and Walt - Supplements posted by Maz on November 27, 2002 at 08:27:07:
I think you're on the right track, Happygal. We were originally intended to get our nourishment from our food supply so that our bodies could stay strong and healthy. We now know (and the US Government has finally agreed) that we aren't getting what we need from our food and that everyone needs to supplement. 3/4 of our population already supplements with something or another. I think it's pretty well understood now.
I don't agree about just using a little of this and a little of that when you think you need it. I'm a believer in 'total nutrition.' I've found that the best way to make sure that you're getting all the nutrients required by your body is to put them all in every day in the right balance so that your system doesn't get overloaded by or shorted of anything that it might need that day. I can't always read my body's signals and therefore don't trust myself to know when something in particular is required to make me function better. I'd much rather assume that everything is necessary and sluff off what I don't need. That way I'm not leaving any holes for anything to creep through. My immune system stays strong and my body remains in a constant healing mode. I realize that some supplements in isolation and out of balance with everything else you're ingesting can build up and cause problems, but that's not a concern with the supplement that I use. I'm sure that there are a lot more total nutrition supplements out there that strive for this effect.
Just my two cents.
In Reply to: To HY and Walt - Supplements posted by Maz on November 27, 2002 at 08:27:07:
Hi Maz,
Here's my take:
Taking isolated vitamin and minerals is like taking a drug. These isolated nutrients are not natural to the body and they were never meant to be taken in such high doses without their natural co-factors from food, many of which haven't even been discovered yet. Also, how do you know which nutrient to take. Lets take calcium for example. If two people take calcium, one could benefit but the other could be harmed. More specifically, if one person is a FAST OXIDIZER, that person has low calcium relative to other nutrients in the body and therefore can benefit from calcium. However, if the other person is a SLOW OXIDIZER, that person has high calcium relative to other nutrients in the body and should therefore not take too much supplemental calcium but should take more potassium instead to balance out. This comes to my point that only TESTING can determine what specific nutrients one should take. It is very easy to just go to a healthfood store and take what the owner says, but this is how we get ourselves in trouble. It would be like prescribing our own drug for ourselves. For example, if you take vitamin E, it has been shown recently that the mineral zinc is needed to maintain normal blood concentrations of the vitmain E. If you take zinc, you must take copper to balance it out. If you take copper, you must take a balance of vitamin C and bioflavanoids. If you take calcium, you must take a proper balance of vitamin D, magnesium and boron. There is just no way that a person can sucessfully pick out his/her own nutrients unless he/she knows his/her biochemistry. In short, isolated vitamins/minerals should be used on a SHORT-TERM basis based on specific individualized testing showing a need for that certain nutrient for a specific biochemical pathway in the body. Otherwise, it is merely guess-work and many people end up imbalancing their chemistry by taking the wrong supplements in the wrong forms. In my opinion, the safets isolated supplements out there, are Fish Oil and Probiotics. Most other studies have both positive AND negative reviews as ISOLATED nutrients. For example, beta carotene can worsen the lungs of smokers.
The supplements I recommend most often for people are WHOLE FOOD supplements. These types of supplements have a PERFECT balance of nutrients that the body can select and discard what it doesn't need. This is why there are no side-effects from them. If you need minerals, taking a mineral which whey as a supplement can provide plenty of organic minerals. If you need vitamins/minerals, many green food supplements are on the market now. If one needs more antioxidants, there are many fruit blends on the market. I have seen more people get well on whole food supplements than with isolated supplements. I take only whole food supplements unless a test shows a need for a specific nutrient. Then, I take that nutrient until the deficiency, imbalance, or excess is resolved, then I go back to whole foods. So, to close, I feel whole food supplements are more reliable as a health-building/preserving tool than isolated nutrients. Many studies back up these claims.
-HY
In Reply to: Re: To HY and Walt - Supplements posted by Helping You on November 27, 2002 at 17:45:46:
Thanks HY. Just one thing, If supplements are taken in tablet/capsule form (as opposed to Whole Food supplements, doesn't the body just discard what it doesn't need? I thought it did, but you seem to be saying this only happens with Whole Food supplements.
The other thing is, I take 150mg of magnesium glycinate because I know I don't get much from my food. I read that some 80% of magnesium is refined out of food. How do I know I could get enough from these Whole Food supplements?
Thanks for your valued input.
Maz
In Reply to: Re: To HY and Walt - Supplements posted by Happygal on November 27, 2002 at 09:28:00:
Thanks, Happygal.
The body cannot "make" any of the vitamins, minerals phytochemicals, essential oils, or essential amino acids plus additional "essential" micronutrients being discovered almost monthly. They MUST be obtained from outside the body!
Since the micronutrients in our foods, even in organically grown foods, are much less than half what they were 100 years ago, where are we going to get them? We have survived as a species this long because humans are remarkably adaptable but there IS a limit to even that.
HY's suggestion of whole food concentrates is probably best for everyone there are still the use of pharmacological doses of selected nutrients to manipulate the "Le Chatelier's Principle" for less than efficient genomes. More than 30,000 of these "inborn errors of metabolism" are already known with an average of 3,000 being discovered every month.
We are all VERY different and getting more different every day. At least we are becoming aware of those differences!
Hope this helps.
Walt
In Reply to: To HY and Walt - Supplements posted by Maz on November 27, 2002 at 08:27:07:
Hi, Maz.
See my response to Happygal and what I take is in the supplement archives.
Walt
In Reply to: Re: To HY and Walt - Supplements? (Archive.) posted by Walt Stoll on November 28, 2002 at 09:25:53:
Thanks, Walt.
It helped.
Happygal
In Reply to: Re: To HY and Walt - Supplements posted by Maz on November 28, 2002 at 05:08:01:
If you take an isolated vitamin supplement, it is viewed as a chemical by the body and the body must handle the entire chemical load. There is no "selection" there. However, if I take the vitamin as a "food" with the natural co-factors still present, the body can select what it needs and discard the rest.
There is no guarantee that you are getting the magnesium you need from food OR supplement. That's why testing is needed. You can take 150mg of magnesium but absorb only 15mg. It depends on the form of the magnesium, how much you take, the state of your digestion, your biochemical individuality and more. The wave of the future will be gene-based testing that will tell you EXACTLY what nutrients you need in the exact amounts needed for optimal health. However, we are still quite a ways off from that. Until that point, metabolic typing is about the best we have.
Also, I just want to mention that taking certain nutrients that ARE made by the body COULD stop your body from making them. DHEA, testosterone, digestive enzymes, there are just a few.
Taking concentrated whole food nutrients is like eating food right from the Earth 200 years ago. It's concentrating the nutrients to levels that we cannot find in our regular food supply these days. There are only a few companies that I trust right now. As the competition gets stiffer, more will hopefully come on board. This is how quality and price get better simotaneously. I take 2 green-food products, a fruit concentrate, a Mushroom blend (whole, fermented mushrooms), liquid green tea, a whole-milk protein powder from goats, a mineral-rich whey from goats (for minerals), Fish oil in the spring-summer, and cod-liver oil in the fall-winter. I hope that helps you
-HY
In Reply to: Re: To HY and Walt - Supplements posted by Helping You on November 28, 2002 at 21:58:27:
...
In Reply to: To HY and Walt - Supplements posted by Maz on November 27, 2002 at 08:27:07:
The vitamin/min. supplement program I started by using synthetics 7yrs ago made a huge difference for me, but I still switched to whole food vitamins based on a lot of research into the benefits of nutrient co-factors. I believe that whole food vitamins are both safer and more effective. Even within the "health food industry" is a tremendous division in thinking about this subject. There are those who ONLY believe that synthetics or isolates are truly medicinal, precisely for the "drug" effects that HY talks about. In my mind, it is ludicrous to say that food-based nutrition is "unproven" (as was stated to me by a health food store guru recently) unless you believe that food itself is somehow not of value to the human body. ANother advantage in food-based supplements is the complete safety in their consumption over any period of time. You can support your nutritional needs without worrying about unwanted side effects.
In Reply to: Re: To HY and Walt - Supplements posted by PeterB on December 03, 2002 at 16:39:37:
As Dr. Stoll points out though, the problem we face is getting adequate nutrients in the available food supply. I feel this makes lifelong supplementation in terms of food-based concentrates AND carefully chosen isolates very compelling. For example, I take chromium picolinate twice a day because it has been shown clinically to lower blood serum cholesterol and also blood sugar spiking. It's ALSO been shown to extend life in laboratory animals. That doesn't mean you should take it yourself, but I believe it's right for me. Only a trace amount of this substance is available in the food chain, so supplementation is necessary to get these POTENTIAL benefits. Other examples of well-researched isolates are melatonin, fish oil, folic acid, selenium, magnesium, etc. I believe that synethic folic acid, in fact, has been shown to be far more effective in preventing heart disease than the naturally-occuring form. I know only 1/10th (if that) compared to Dr. Stoll, so if you can keep up with him, you are doing better than I! But these are my thots on the debate.
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