Toenail and Foot Conditions Archives

toenail fungus

[ Toenail and Foot Conditions Archive ]
[ Main Archives Page ] [ Glossary/Index ]
[ FAQ ] [ Recommended Books ] [ Bulletin Board ]
   Search this site!
 
        

toenail fungus

Posted by Carol on May 07, 2001 at 14:55:55:

Dr. Stoll,

I have used your vinegar treatment for my stubborn toenail fungus and istead of going away my nail is now thicke(about a 1/4").
I used the vinegar faithfully for about 4 months, since I didn't see the results expected I switched to tea tree oil, but nothing is happening with that either.
I was also juicing at the same time for a while and I read that juices are not good for Candida. Could it be that the juicing stopped the vinegar effects?
I'm not juicing right now. I stopped for a while.
I would like to know what I need to do to get rid off this ugly and painful problem. I don't want to take Sporanox again!

Please let me know..... I would greatly appreciate it.

Thanks!

Carol



Re: toenail fungus

Posted by kmd on May 08, 2001 at 20:23:49:

In Reply to: toenail fungus posted by Carol on May 07, 2001 at 14:55:55:

Did you get a lab culture of the affected nails?

Follow Ups:


Re: toenail fungus (?)

Posted by Walt Stoll on May 09, 2001 at 07:53:22:

In Reply to: toenail fungus posted by Carol on May 07, 2001 at 14:55:55:

Hi, Carol.

kmd posted MY first question.

My comment is, first: Since the average time it takes for the vinegar to show progress is 4-6 months, and 6-12 months for clearing, you may have just stopped too soon.

Finally, there is no way that 4% acetic acid (exactly what distilled vinegar IS) could possibly cause onychomycosis to be worse. Your best bet it that this is not your diagnosis.

Humans are much too complex for ANYTHING to work for everyone. Have you read the chapter in my book about the kinds of things that make people susceptible to foot fungus?

Walt



Re: toenail fungus (?)

Posted by Carol on May 09, 2001 at 13:00:58:

In Reply to: Re: toenail fungus (?) posted by Walt Stoll on May 09, 2001 at 07:53:22:

yes! I did get a culture on my nails years ago! and that's how I know this is fungus and it when my doctor
gave me Sporanox few years ago, it was almost clear, but
somehow it came back on my big toe and can't get rid off
it now!
I'm going to give oregano oil a try to see what happens!



Re: toenail fungus

Posted by Phil on May 09, 2001 at 13:32:44:

In Reply to: toenail fungus posted by Carol on May 07, 2001 at 14:55:55:

Hi Carol. I have toenail fungus as well and am using the vinegar treatment. The treatment is working so I'll tell you what I know. Your toenail is now thick because of the progression of the fungus in that part of the nail. That is normal and there is nothing you can do about that. The vinegar just prevents the fungus from moving into the new growth. During the treatment it is possible to actually have the fungus progress in some nails! See the image below. Toenails grow slowly. If a nail is completely infected, right to the base, it could take 18 months to grow a completely healthy nail.

The important parts:
- Apply two drops of distilled vinegar where the nail joins the toe. Some will run off, that's ok. Give it a few seconds to soak in.
- You can tell you're doing it right if the base turns red but is not irritated or painful.
- You must do this twice a day. If you miss a treatment strange and humorous things can happen, like having striped toenails.
- Do not rip the nail off or cut it too close.
- Vinegar is cheaper than tea tree oil



Re: toenail fungus

Posted by Carol on May 09, 2001 at 15:20:48:

In Reply to: Re: toenail fungus posted by Phil on May 09, 2001 at 13:32:44:

Thank you so much Phil, for all your info!
I'll try vinegar again!

Follow Ups:


Re: toenail fungus

Posted by
Esther on May 09, 2001 at 21:45:29:

In Reply to: Re: toenail fungus posted by Phil on May 09, 2001 at 13:32:44:

hey phil,
thanks for the wonderful illustration. this is my 5th week on the vinegar treatment and i'm still waiting to see results. where did you get this information? is it verified? ur encouragement is greatly appreciated.



Re: toenail fungus

Posted by Phil on May 10, 2001 at 12:27:26:

In Reply to: Re: toenail fungus posted by Esther on May 09, 2001 at 21:45:29:

Esther wrote:
> where did you get this information? is it verified?

DISCLAIMER: I am not a doctor. I reserve the right to be wrong.

In his article about fungus, Dr. Stoll writes: "All any thing does is to inhibit growth of the fungus in tissue that was grown THAT DAY during the treatment. The growing cells must incorporate some of whatever is being applied, right into the cell, so THAT CELL will no longer be susceptible to the fungus. THEN the natural shedding of superficial tissues will grow the already infected tissue right off the body."

Existing nail cells cannot incorporate the vinegar into any growth process because they are dead tissue. The vinegar might be able to enter the dead cells but cannot cause a change in them. Unprotected uninfected nail and protected uninfected nail can look the same.

Dr. Stoll says it takes "at least 6 months" to grow a completely new toenail. But it can take 18 months depending on the person. The rate of growth depends on the person and possibly to some extent on his/her habits.

Psoriatic nails appear similar to nails with toenail fungus and can even be infected with both conditions. But vinegar treatment, while able to immunize the nail from fungal infection can do nothing for the psoriatic condition. A guy posted to this board that this happened to him; after 18 months of vinegar treatment he saw no change. If you have the means or if insurance will cover it (ask your HMO), have your doctor send a nail sample to a lab for testing. (I'm not sure if s/he has to send it to the two blessed labs which Dr. Stoll recommends in the Archives.) The lab can detect if the nails are psoriatic, which means the vinegar treatment will not work.

DISCLAIMER: I do not work for or represent Xenna in any way and cannot verify their product.

Xenna (http://www.xenna.com/) is a company that sells a topical gel for nail fungus and psoriatic nails. They claim that their product Nonyx(R) (ethanoic acid 9.75% solution in a xanthan gum gel) when applied twice daily to the nail, destroys the keratin buildup which feeds either fungus or psoriatic condition, and changes the pH of the nail (like vinegar?) to prevent further infection, with treatment still taking as long as 18 months. A 4 oz bottle costs $25 + $5 shipping and they claim it lasts 3 months, which means you would have to buy from 2 to 6 of these bottles. Ask your doctor; also ask your pharmacist. With a doctor's prescription your health insurance might cover it, ask your HMO. However, according to the site Nonyx(R) has a money back guarantee.

If you view their web site, I caution you, you'll be looking at close-ups of some of the most horrific feet you've ever seen. Adjust your browser by turning off [X]Show Images in the Preferences or Options dialog boxes if you're squeamish.

Dr. Stoll, their physician fact sheet is here: http://www.xenna.com/nonyxfactsheet3.htm

"Please share any experiences with this approach with the BB
participants." -- Dr. Stoll, same article



Re: toenail fungus

Posted by Joe on May 10, 2001 at 15:38:09:

In Reply to: Re: toenail fungus posted by Phil on May 10, 2001 at 12:27:26:

I am trying the Xenna NonyX Gel and do see some improvement after 3 weeks. I have been doing the vinegar treatment for 10 months and have seen some improvement as well, but it was not much. It seems like the process slowed down drastically.

I have been patient in using the vinegar but I will now try this Xenna product to see what happens. Maybe I will use both because at this point I am anxious to get rid of this fungus. I have been using the vinegar first and a few minutes later I use the Gel. I do notice the base of the nail plate towards the cuticle is becoming clear. We'll see.

I'll keep you posted.
Joe



Re: toenail fungus

Posted by Phil on May 10, 2001 at 18:05:24:

In Reply to: Re: toenail fungus posted by Joe on May 10, 2001 at 15:38:09:

Joe,
If the NonyX gel is successful in both removing the keratin deposits and altering the pH of the growing cells, and if those deposits comprise the food source of the fungus, then it would stand to reason that you would see improvement faster than with vinegar alone because the fungus progression would be retarded without that food source. If the NonyX is able to change the pH of the growing cells in the base of the nail (Xenna claims it does) you may not need the vinegar during the NonyX treatment.

Note that in Dr. Stoll's article, his wife had to use the vinegar treatment again because she got reinfected. The conditions that made both your toenails and mine a great place for fungi to live will probably continue since they are linked to our habits.

I am afraid to recommend lifelong use of vinegar to prevent reoccurance of infection, because I am not sure that changing the pH in the growing cells does no harm. According to http://www.meridianinstitute.com/news3-1.htm

:"Acid/alkaline balance is extremely important to normal physiology. For example, the blood will maintain a slightly alkaline range of 7.35 to 7.45. Extended pH imbalances of any kind are not well tolerated by the body."
By applying the vinegar are we changing the pH or is something else happening? Are we changing the pH in just those cells or in our whole body? Did we already have an inbalance which we are correcting? Or are we pushing our body out of the normal healthy range in order to make ourselves taste bad to the fungus? If we take the vinegar too long and it affects the whole body, does the body exert a push-back effect like the one mentioned vs antihistamines in Health At the Crossroads? Dr. Stoll, I'd appreciate any comments.

I've seen no side effects other than the thin red line at the base of every nail being treated. But that doesn't mean they aren't there. To prevent recurrence, best read Dr. Stoll's book and do what it says regarding changing habits. The toughest medicine to apply by far.



Re: toenail fungus (?)

Posted by Walt Stoll on May 11, 2001 at 12:52:23:

In Reply to: Re: toenail fungus (?) posted by Carol on May 09, 2001 at 13:00:58:

Thanks, Carol.

Let us know how you do.

Have you eliminated the susceptibility factors for ANY kind of foot fungus?

Walt

Follow Ups:


Re: toenail fungus (Archive.) GRAPHIC

Posted by Walt Stoll on May 11, 2001 at 12:55:25:

In Reply to: Re: toenail fungus posted by Phil on May 09, 2001 at 13:32:44:

Thanks, Phil!

What a wonderful graphic explanation!

Namaste`

Walt



Re: toenail fungus (Archive.) GRAPHIC

Posted by Phil on May 11, 2001 at 16:08:38:

In Reply to: Re: toenail fungus (Archive.) GRAPHIC posted by Walt Stoll on May 11, 2001 at 12:55:25:

IANAD.
The graphic only tells 1 person's story I'm afraid. The subject in the graphic began treatment with partial infection of the nail, which presumably began at the end of the toenail and progressed at some rate-- a rate faster than the growth rate of new nail tissue. During the treatment, the fungus continued at this rate, which is why it "ran up" the nail, making Carol think the treatment was making the problem worse.

The question is: if it can take 12 months to begin to see the sought-after response, how long will it take to detect any unwanted side effects? The new nails might not be pleasant for fungus to eat, but are they just as protective as untreated healthy nails? It doesn't seem likely that the growing cells could become damaged from the treatment; since some patients experienced relapse, that means the protected cells grew off the nail, leaving unprotected cells. But can the treatment, possibly in combination with the body's push-back effect, make the nails MORE susceptible to infection in the future?



Re: toenail fungus (Archive.) GRAPHIC

Posted by
Esther on May 11, 2001 at 21:54:33:

In Reply to: Re: toenail fungus (Archive.) GRAPHIC posted by Phil on May 11, 2001 at 16:08:38:

i'm getting very confused. are you saying that the vinegar can be potentially useless?



Re: toenail fungus (Archive.) GRAPHIC

Posted by Phil on May 12, 2001 at 18:45:30:

In Reply to: Re: toenail fungus (Archive.) GRAPHIC posted by Esther on May 11, 2001 at 21:54:33:

IANAD (I Am Not A Doctor).
Hi Esther. The vinegar treatment, if applied properly, protects nail cells from toenail fungus (onychomycosis). There is a condition that looks similar to toenail fungus which is called psoriasis. The vinegar will not work for that. By sending a toenail clipping to a lab, your doctor can find out if your toenails are psoriatic, infected with onychomycosis, or both.

For some people, the cost of the lab work and/or the office visit is prohibitive. So they don't know whether they are psoriatic or infected with fungus or both. But they can afford the $1 for a bottle of distilled vinegar and the $2 dropper to try the treatment. It's a cheap way to find out which you have if you don't mind waiting 18 months. If the nail grows the thickening off, either it was fungus and the treatment worked, or another sudden change in the environs of your toes (like changing foot care habits) has allowed the body to throw off the thickening effect. If the nail doesn't grow the thickening off, perhaps it was psoriatic, or perhaps you didn't apply the vinegar correctly.

My questions, like "could the treatment make the nails more susceptible in the future" are just deeper questions about what vinegar does to the cells. Currently I am trying to find answers to these questions in medical dictionaries and journals. My understanding of toenail fungus is incomplete, but I want to learn more.

My perspective on this is that many doctors act like mechanics. Ever notice how a mechanic wants to sell you services that sometimes are not necessary? The oral medication that doctors prescribe for toenail fungus can ruin your liver! Reality check anyone? I have been blessed with 10 nailed toes but only 1 liver. The human body can live for many years with toenail fungus, but last time I checked having a sick liver was a pretty serious thing.

I've lived with toenail fungus for 8 years because my busy schedule didn't allow me to wind up in a hospice being fed thru a tube and looking forward to Bingo on saturday just so Dr. Killpatient can drive a new Lexus every 2 years! I told the mechanic who tried to charge me $600 for a $5 rotation to put the wheels back on the car because I was going to do it myself and live with the consequences. I told the doctor the same thing. It's 8 ys later and I'm not a bit sorry. If the vinegar works for me, great. If it doesn't, at least I still have my liver and enough $ to pay rent, right? So I gross out a few strangers during the infrequent moments I walk around in public barefoot! Big deal! In my sick (& safely untreated) mind I kinda enjoy grossing them out! ;-)

Follow Ups:


Re: toenail fungus (Archive.) GRAPHIC

Posted by Walt Stoll on May 13, 2001 at 09:08:28:

In Reply to: Re: toenail fungus (Archive.) GRAPHIC posted by Phil on May 11, 2001 at 16:08:38:

Hi, Phil.

No.

Those factors are the very ones that make one more susceptible to any foot fungus.

Walt

Follow Ups:


Re: toenail fungus

Posted by Joe on May 14, 2001 at 12:59:05:

In Reply to: Re: toenail fungus posted by Phil on May 10, 2001 at 18:05:24:

Thanks for the in-depth info.
I can see slight improvement with the Xenna product. It does sting though. I am debating whether to continue or go back to the vinegar. I am a bit concerned about how this gets absorbed into the body.....any thoughts? Interesting what you had to say about acidity levels in the body....

Thanks
Joe

I will read the book on prevention



Re: toenail fungus

Posted by Phil on May 15, 2001 at 17:07:51:

In Reply to: Re: toenail fungus posted by Joe on May 14, 2001 at 12:59:05:

I can't find much else about how the vinegar is absorbed. A university dermatologist professor wrote this article about why fingers wrinkle in the bath. Apparently keratin, a protein that makes up some of the cells and is present in the nails, absorbs water readily. Perhaps it absorbs the %5 acid in vinegar along with the water. However the article says that the absorbed water evaporates quickly.

I wonder what would happen differently taking the gel right after a shower vs taking it when your toes are completely dry? If taken when wet, would the keratin be already saturated with water and absorb less acid? Would it absorb zero acid and fail to cure? If taken when dry, would more acid be absorbed? Would this cause it to sting more? Would this cause it to work faster? Is the stinging a symptom of damage or of cure? Maybe you should call Xenna and ask them some of these questions. Good luck!

Follow Ups:


[ Toenail and Foot Conditions Archive ]
[ Main Archives Page ] [ Glossary/Index ]
[ FAQ ] [ Recommended Books ] [ Bulletin Board ]
   Search this site!