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There was conversation earlier about the injured frog, I thought this might be of interest. This article was published today on MSNBC, but I didn't link directly because the stories get pulled so fast.
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British scientists say fish do feel pain
LONDON, April 30 — Anglers take note — British scientists say that after years of debate, they now have proof that fish feel pain. Animal activists are on the warpath after a study released on Wednesday showed how rainbow trout react to discomfort. They condemned fishing as cruel and demanded an end to the sport — but anglers themselves dismissed the study.
"We would encourage anglers to lay down their rods. It’s ridiculous that in 2003 we are still talking about whether fish feel pain — of course they do." — DAWN CARR
THE RESEARCH FOUND that fish have receptors in their heads and that subjecting them to noxious substances causes "adverse behavioural and physiological changes."
"This fulfils the criteria for animal pain," said Dr. Lynne Sneddon who headed the research, published on Wednesday by the Royal Society, Britain’s national academy of science.
Bee venom or acetic acid was injected into the lips of some of the trout, while control groups of fish were injected with saline solution or merely handled. The trout injected with venom or acid began to show "rocking" motion — similar to that seen in stressed higher vertebrates — and those injected with acetic acid began rubbing their lips in the gravel of their tank.
"These do not appear to be reflex responses," Sneddon said.
The affected fish also took three times longer to resume feeding activity compared to those in the control groups.
The team from the Roslin Institute and the University of Edinburgh found the fish had polymodal nociceptors — receptors that respond to tissue-damaging stimuli — on their heads.
It is the first time these receptors have been found in fish. They have similar properties to those found in amphibians, birds and mammals including humans.
Animal activists said the findings showed that fishing was cruel.
"Until we have proper, bona fide evidence, we will never know. It’s supposition." - CHARLES JARDINE
"We would encourage anglers to lay down their rods. It’s ridiculous that in 2003 we are still talking about whether fish feel pain — of course they do," Dawn Carr of the people for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PETA) told Sky News.
But anglers vowed to keep on enjoying their sport.
"Until we have proper, bona fide evidence, we will never know. It’s supposition," said Charles Jardine, director of pro-angling group Gone Fishing. "I don’t think the millions of anglers throughout the whole of the world would see themselves as cruel individuals."
In Reply to: Study Shows Fish Feel Pain ... posted by peterb on April 30, 2003 at 16:13:01:
Hi peterb,
Don't you wonder what Gone Fishing would consider "proper, bona fide evidence"? Maybe if a trout jumped out of the boat and used a fin to write OUCH in the sand.......
ktj:)
In Reply to: Re: Study Shows Fish Feel Pain ... posted by ktj on April 30, 2003 at 17:17:33:
Those fishermen know fish feel pain, just like the government knows global warming is happening. They just want to continue what they are doing without interference. What they are demanding is the impossible--irrefutable proof. If you gave it to them, they would either manufacture a flaw in the evidence or find another defense of their "rights".
Every one knows that fish feel pain. Even plants respond to trauma. That is not the issue. The issue is: What is the nature of Man vs. Nature.
In Reply to: Re: Study Shows Fish Feel Pain ... posted by ktj on April 30, 2003 at 17:17:33:
LOL. or prove fish can blink twice for "yes?"
In Reply to: Re: Study Shows Fish Feel Pain ... posted by peterb on April 30, 2003 at 18:38:13:
Fisherman: Does it hurt when I do THIS?
Fish: ~:0~
Fisherman: That's a definite "no"!
Yeah, with no eyelids, that will work just fine for the fishermen!
I don't think the fisherman care whether or not the fish feel pain. They are fisherman. They fish. I hope that they aren't malicious or cruel and that they don't *try* to inflict pain. I hope that they kill the fish efficiently.
I eat fish and meat of other animals, too. I am sorry that they have to feel pain in order for me to live in health. I am grateful to them for their sacrifice. It is not done willingly. But in its simplest form, it is the way of nature, the circle of life.
It's unfortunate that we have lost touch with that circle in most of the world today. Most of us never think about what happens when an animal's life is taken to provide our food or clothing. We don't respect them as we should - we don't feel their pain. We try to trivialize it and ignore it instead of accepting it and giving it its due recognition.
In Reply to: Study Shows Fish Feel Pain ... posted by peterb on April 30, 2003 at 16:13:01:
Thanks Peterb. You read my mind. I was just about to post this. I caught a glimpse on the news this morning about this. Yeah, makes sense, and as I suspected all along.
In Reply to: Re: Study Shows Fish Feel Pain ... posted by Jaine on April 30, 2003 at 20:18:28:
yes, i agree.
In Reply to: Re: Study Shows Fish Feel Pain ... posted by peterb on April 30, 2003 at 21:04:55:
Me too. BTW, there are also people who believe Iraqi civilians feel no pain.
In Reply to: Re: Study Shows Fish Feel Pain ... posted by ktj on May 01, 2003 at 17:47:22:
right, ktj, i think certain species of shrub have this particular insensitivity.
:)
In Reply to: Re: Study Shows Fish Feel Pain ... posted by Frog Lady on April 30, 2003 at 21:02:19:
i know you've long since made peace with mr. Frog so i hope you are feeling better.
:)
In Reply to: Re: Study Shows Fish Feel Pain ... posted by peterb on May 01, 2003 at 20:45:31:
Thanks for asking Peterb.Yes, I certainly have blessed him and moved on, hope he has done the same for me. :)
Certainly the negative stifling emotions I felt, passed quickly, and especially being able to vent here, and getting mostly positive responses helped to, except for those two negative posters, but that too has left my consciousness. I am back to my relaxed, beautiful, happy, fun loving self. :)
When I ventured back to that spot a few days ago, I tread VERY carefully, even though I was wearing my spear high heels again. I had my eyes peeled for any greenies,I was ever so careful, and only walked where the light was bright and lit up the bitumen.
In Reply to: Re: Treading Ever So Carefully... posted by Frog Lady on May 01, 2003 at 21:00:14:
that's great!
on the coldest day we had winter before last, i tried to rescue 3 young kittens and their mother. one of the kittens jumped through a fence into a ravine to get away from me, falling into ice cold water and lots of tall asian grass. He looked up at me and called for help, i saw no way to get to him. the mother could not get to him either, it was too dangerous. it took me 10 minutes to figure out how to get into that marsh and to the place the kitten fell. i never found him. I'm sure he drowned. one of the other siblings also went through the fence, but he fared better and i think his mother retrieved him. the third kitten ran in a completely different direction and managed to get away, something i would have thot not possible for a 5wk old kitten! It was about 21 degrees outside. Later that night, I heard the tiniest cry for help. I was still very angry with myself and feeling guilty for the whole affair, but felt this was my chance to make ammends. I grabbed a throw rug and headed outdoors. Almost to my suprise, standing just 40ft away in front of me, this little fellow was trying to figure out which way to go. I went after him and he bolted, he was almost too fast for me; i threw the rug and trapped him and scooped him up. I got a nasty bite, but he was indoors within a few minutes, warm and toasty. that was more than a year ago. i don't think he plans to leave, either. that's fine though, he's become quite an entertainer.
:)
In Reply to: Re: Treading Ever So Carefully... posted by peterb on May 02, 2003 at 11:06:50:
Oh, peter! I cringed reading that! You should have heard all my exclamations as I read about that poor kitten. :)i almost couldnt read any further, actually I had to stop reading half way through, and had to go back to your post a bit later. I cant handle it when bad things happen to animals. It almost hurts inside. I start to get very teary eyed. Gosh, I think I am just waaaaaaaaaaay too sensitive to their suffering. They are just such innocent, humble creatures of god, without a malicious bone in their body, well, not intentionally malicious anyway.
How awful for you to have seeen that kitty in the water, crying out for help, and you unable to help. That would have been so horrid, and to feel so helpless! I think I also would have been very angry at myself too, but these things in life happen, nature is cruel for sure, and all we can do is let the situation go,and move on.
I will share a small event that happened with my dog.
I had put something on the stove, and went outside to hang up the laundry on the line, and in the meantime forgot, that I had something on the stove. My dog was inside barking, and I kinda ignored him, but he was so loud and persistent. So I eventually ventured back inside, and he was standing in the kitchen, barking up at the pan on the stove that was smoking. So the little tyke, may have helped avoid a catastrophe.
. I went after him and he bolted, he was almost too fast for me; i threw the rug and trapped him and scooped him up. I got a nasty bite, but he was indoors within a few minutes, warm and toasty. that was more than a year ago. i don't think he plans to leave, either. that's fine though, he's become quite an entertainer.
Peter, that was ingenius throwing the rug over him. Was that the same kitty that had gotten away, not the one that drowned?
In Reply to: Re: Treading Ever So Carefully... posted by Frog Lady on May 02, 2003 at 20:07:31:
when my oldest sister was little, she would cry uncontrollably if a little bird was in a thunder storm in a Disney cartoon. my mother had to be sure to avoid TV or movies that showed animals, from that point. my mother will refuse to hear any animal story that involves suffering, and frankly, i'm about the same. when my mother told me recently about her ordeal witnessing a man beat his dog, i got very upset. we have since tried to find where these people live, but haven't been successful. as far as i'm concerned, anyone who abuses animals or pets is a felon and should be put away.
yes, the kitten i rescued was the one that ran the other direction. as you can imagine, the image of the one i lost will stay with me forever.
i'm sure dogs have saved more lives than anyone could count, you have a good pooch. we had a dog when i was little than used to protect me faithfully. my mother always said animals are better than people. i try to remind her, better than SOME people.
:)
In Reply to: Re: Treading Ever So Carefully... posted by peterb on May 04, 2003 at 09:38:20:
I think those Disney movies traumatized a whole generation of us --- I still get hysterical when I think of what happened to Bambi's mom.....
ktj;(
In Reply to: Re: Treading Ever So Carefully... posted by ktj on May 04, 2003 at 14:07:30:
Thanks, KTJ.
Me too.
You know, there is an organization called the "Animal Legal Defense Fund" whose raison d'etre is to help put people in jail (or at least severely fine them) for abusing any helpless animal.
There are well established statistics showing that animal abusers are MUCH more likely to abuse humans when they "mature".
Namaste`
Walt
In Reply to: Re: Treading Ever So Carefully... (Animal abusers beware!) Archive in veterinar posted by Walt Stoll on May 05, 2003 at 07:12:53:
Absolutely! I work with an organization here in Tampa called the Animal Protection League. They are primarily a spay/neuter group but also do abuse investigations. I've been doing rescue work for about 15 years now, but have to "pace" myself because the stories break my heart.
My dog friend, Jackson, is at my feet, snoring and farting under my old wooden desk as I write this. He's one of the lucky ones who found a better life.
ktj
In Reply to: Re: Treading Ever So Carefully... (Animal abusers beware!) Archive in veterinar posted by ktj on May 05, 2003 at 13:00:01:
that's great ktj, i have been doing animal rescues ad hoc over the years, assisted with expenses by Argus Animal Fund here in Atlanta. there are some great people out there making a difference. the sadest part may be all those who don't get the concept of spaying/neutering.
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