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I have a 6 year old male cocker spaniel. Up until about 3 weeks ago he was in perfect health. We recently discovered that he has a sensitivity to liver products and that has been removed from the diet. He has been having diarrhea for the past few days. About 3 weeks ago we noticed that he was losing more weight. He is now about 3lbs. under his normal summer weight. I have taken him to the vet and they gave me a medicine for him but they were not really sure what was wrong with him. I'm not too crazy about giving him a medicine when they are not sure it's what he needs. A friend of mine recommended I start feeding him a natural diet that I make myself. She had to do this for her dog and used a lot of wild rice and beans as well as boiled liver. I was thinking about another meat option such as chicken in this case. I'm wanting a second opinion on this diet and to make sure I'm not overlooking any other possible causes of this recent illness. He is very active, acting normal, and eating quite well. Thanks for any advice!
In Reply to: Dog with Stomach Problems posted by Maddie on September 07, 2001 at 12:18:22:
in terms of diet...my girl is on a meat and veggies diet (no grains) because of her problems. I'm out the door, but will post later this weekend...just curious, I have a few questions...
what are you currently feeding your dog?
what medications did your vet give him?
how long ago were the last vaccinations?
did the vet consider an enzyme deficiency (EPI) perhaps?
In Reply to: Dog with Stomach Problems posted by Maddie on September 07, 2001 at 12:18:22:
I would try yogurt, tripe and cayenne pepper. I gave them
in that order to a severly sensitive hound who came to me
Very lean for a lean breed and sensitive to almost every
food. The yogurt helped him eat more than dry dog food and
the tripe got him up to normal weight probaby supplying
digestive enzymes but the cayenne Really straightened him
out since he still had some sensitivities and soft smelly
stools but after something gave him the runs for 5 days I
decided to try cayenne caps after the loose powder stoped
the runs and he can eat Anything now and rarely an upset
and I mean Anything I eat. Took me 10 yrs to finally solve
the problem and it has made him a different animal since
he also was spooked by a lot of things and now has none.
VF
In Reply to: Dog with Stomach Problems posted by Maddie on September 07, 2001 at 12:18:22:
My golden retriever puppy went through the same things. After a very long time of being on antibiotics, we discovered that it was a weird allergy to ingredients found in most reputable (and not-so-reputable) dog foods. Here are my recommendations:
1. try a novel protein in a hypoallergenic dog food. Hill's company makes a dog food that is VERY good (just released last year) called z/d. Only your vet would carry it. Also The Nature's Recipe Company makes a product called IVD (Innovative Veterinary Diets) that is made of different proteins like rabbit and kangaroo; this is only supplied through veterinarians. I would go for the first option, though, because if this is food allergy, your dog is likely to develop it to new proteins over time. What is neat about z/d is that the proteins are altered enough that they have the effect of protein, but the body doesn't recognize them as such, so there is no allergic reaction. My dog was near death with diarrhea, and now she's completely fine. But remember--NO tablescraps, unless it's fruits and veggies. Even then, at first, give nothing at all. Then reintroduce fruits and veggies after your dog is feeling better. If your vet does not carry these products, search for another vet. These are widely-distributed.
2. I assume that your dog has had fecal samples taken from its rectum (or a sample). If your vet hasn't done this already, then find another vet. Coccidya (sp?) is very common during puppyhood, when the immune system isn't well-developed. It is fairly easy to treat if it is properly identified. Remember that your dog could be suffering from multiple angles: food allergy and parasites. So.....here's my recommendation:
get multiple stool samples tested and begin the z/d diet. Best of luck to you---hang in there. It's hard to see our friends so sick, I know.
In Reply to: Re: Dog with Stomach Problems posted by Marie on September 08, 2001 at 00:21:23:
the Hill's z/d unless you absolutely had to -- not much nutrition there, and terrible chemical preservatives.
In Reply to: btw, I wouldn't feed... posted by LisaT on September 08, 2001 at 03:57:51:
I guess that you would know about this better than I, but in the short term, it might be the best option. If the diarrhea goes away after a couple of weeks of the hypoallergenic food, then we can say that this is definitely allergy. She can then reintroduce different foods one at a time. But in the short term, this poor dog is suffering, and I think that this diet might be a quick way out of the "danger zone" and would provide some good information without having to worry about recipes or supplements for the short term. And if the diet doesn't help, then it's possible that this is NOT food allergy; that would be good info, too. So, this advice, from my experience, might be the best for the short term and would give her a solid place to stand on for reintroducing a more nutritious diet.
In Reply to: Dog with Stomach Problems posted by Maddie on September 07, 2001 at 12:18:22:
Your dog demonstrates either pesticide poisoniong, either parasites!
Get stool test to eliminate parasites.
In Reply to: Dog with Stomach Problems posted by Maddie on September 07, 2001 at 12:18:22:
Interestingly, I just posted info above re: liver detoxification where I passed on info about animals eating grass when they are sick. They seek out grass because of it's high sulfur content. Sulfur is supposed to neutralize toxins. What I'm not sure about is whether cilantro has a lot of sulfur in it-the article I mentioned didn't state plainly the connection. But, if this is the case, perhaps cilantro would be helpful?
In Reply to: Re: Dog with Stomach Problems posted by Trish on September 08, 2001 at 18:33:24:
"They seek out grass because of it's high sulfur content. Sulfur is supposed to neutralize toxins."
Sulfur binds with heavy metals. While Sulfur is a well known toxin, which needs to be fast oxidized, or may cause severe injuries while acumulating in tissue.
If you (or your dog) want DETOX I do not believe that sulfur will help.
I believe however that the need to eat grass may be related to chlorofil not sulfur.
In such case organic pesticide free grass could be helpful.
Will recommend KAMUT not lawn grass which is heavilly sprayed with pesticides which could kill the dog.
Impaired Sulfur Oxidation
Some people have an impaired ability to oxidize and detoxify sulfur compounds. This is well known by the inability to safely process "sulfa-drugs". A buildup in the body of excess sulfur compounds can be uncomfortable and even life threatening.
Two forms of this impairment have been observed. One results in an inability to regulate the amino acid cysteine, and is indicated by an increase of cysteine levels in blood plasma, and other tissues samples along with discomfort in eating foods rich in sulfur amino acids.
The second impairment produces an inefficiency in converting sulfur dioxide and sulfides into non-toxic sulfate.
Anecdotes have been reported to us that impaired sulfur oxidation may occur commonly in people with Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, and "amalgam illness". ("Amalgam illness" is a term for chronic health problems stemming from lifetime exposure to mercury and other metals found in dental restorations.)
Paradoxically, and quite frustratingly, persons chronically ill can also have impaired glutathione synthesis and depletion of body stores of glutathione. Lack of adequate glutathione is implicated in poor immune function, poor synthesis and uptake of thyroid hormones, an increased rate of aging, and even poor hair growth.
When a person is a poor sulfur oxidizer they often find ordinary foods bearing sulfur compounds to be a source of discomfort. Broccoli and garlic being but two examples of foods which can contribute to uncomfortable excess cystiene levels in such people.
Excess free cysteine is a toxic condition and has been implicated in several degenerative diseases including Rheumatoid Arthritis, Alzheimer's Disease, Parkinson's Disease, Peripheral Neuron Degeneration, and others. (See our Science Page for journal references on impaired sulfur oxidation, glutathione, and other nutrition related topics.)
Poor sulfur oxidation would seem to be an inherited trait that might be made worse by environmental factors such as exposure to mercury and other heavy metals.
We have investigated the enzyme involved in sulfur oxidation of L-cysteine. Based on recent science literature, it appears the liver enzyme "cysteine dioxygenase" (CDO) is the primary regulating enzyme of cysteine. When this enzyme is not functioning at full strength, normal amounts of L-cysteine derived from food can elevate to dangerous levels in liver, plasma, and even the brain.
In healthy conditions the liver converts dietary L-cysteine into glutathione, taurine, sulfate, cystine, and allows a tolerated amount of unconverted L-cysteine to circulate in blood for direct uptake by body cells and organs.
Excessive levels of L-cysteine are controlled by the liver using the enzyme CDO to decompose the amino acid to non-toxic and rapidly excretable sulfate.
The enzyme "cysteine dioxygenase" (CDO) is an iron-histidine enzyme.
Another enzyme called "sulfite oxidase" has been implicated in dysfunction of the last step creating non-toxic sulfate from sulfur dioxide, and from toxic sulfide compounds. An inherited disorder called "molybdenum-cofactor deficiency" makes this condition severe, causing loss of eye lenses and usually an early death.
Less severe impairments of "sulfite oxidase" appear related to dietary deficiency or environmental depletion of the essential trace mineral molybdenum.
In response to the special dietary needs of those with impaired sulfur oxidation, and other trace metal enzymes we have created a nutrition program that includes essential trace minerals, and the essential amino acid histidine.
For a person with impaired sulfur oxidation attempting to rebuild healthy nutritional status we recommend starting with our Restore & Replenish formula. When the ability to tolerate foods like garlic and broccoli is restored, then our other nutrition programs should be considered.
Poor sulphoxidizers, persons with chronic seasonal allergies, elevated serum iron, or impairment of other mineral-enzymes should consider always adding the essential amino acid L-Histidine to their regular routine of nutritional supplementation.
In Reply to: Re: Dog with Stomach Problems posted by Trish on September 08, 2001 at 18:33:24:
I think it is spelled "Chlorophyll"
In Reply to: Dog with Stomach Problems posted by Maddie on September 07, 2001 at 12:18:22:
Hi, Maddie.
Contact the publishers of the Whole Dog Journal (email and phone # in the archives under veterinarians holistic).
Let us know what you learn.
Walt
In Reply to: Dog with Stomach Problems posted by Maddie on September 07, 2001 at 12:18:22:
Hi, Maddie - The 800 number for the Whole Dog Journal is:
(800)829-9165 (in case you didn't find it in the archives). They will send you a free copy of one of their issues is you want. I have found that it has very useful information on various subjects, and especially on nutrition for older dogs. Raisa
In Reply to: Re: Dog with Stomach Problems posted by Chlorophyll on September 08, 2001 at 18:58:28:
In Reply to: you have lots of options... posted by LisaT on September 07, 2001 at 18:10:03:
just curious about the answers before I post more....
In Reply to: you have lots of options... posted by LisaT on September 07, 2001 at 18:10:03:
sorry it took me so long to get back here.
Lisa...to answer your questions...i was feeding them a purina brand dry food and pedigree canned food mixed together. my vet gave him a series of shots that were for his allergies and one was supposed to help settle his stomach. the dog had been in for rabies shots and had blood drawn at the beginning of august, everything looked fine then.
since i first posted i have started him on a new diet after doing quite a bit of research. i am now feeding all my dogs a diet that consists mostly of veggies, grains, and beans and about 30% meats. Rush has been doing quite well with it up to this point, but they have only been on it for 3 days. His stomach hasn't been upset so far and time will tell if he will gain some weight back.
thanks to all who posted some suggestions and thoughts! he has not been eating grass or showing any other typical reaction to having an upset stomach, but i'm always watching for that. thanks again for all the help!!
In Reply to: Re: you have lots of options... posted by Maddie on September 12, 2001 at 22:35:48:
that purina and pedigree are pretty crummy foods, although you could go your entire life without learning this. This is good news because it may not take much to keep your Rush doing better. In general, when kibble shopping, I would recommend a food with no corn, no by-products and none of the preservatives BHA, BHT, Ethoxyquin, Propyl Gallate, or Propylene Glycol. For sensitive dogs, I would also stay away from soybean meal found in kibble, and what carefully for any reactions to other grains such as wheat or barley. Homecooked food however is an entirely different story.
The shots may possibly have been steroid shots to suppress the allergic reaction. If they were, they have the potential to really mess up the immune system...hopefully you can control this with diet. It sounds like so many vets though...instead of look at the cause (i.e. probably the diet), let's just give drugs to subdue and mask the problem. Hats off to you for thinking otherwise.
You might want to be careful about vaccinating, as this can make a sensitive dog even worse. There is quite a debate in the dog world currently about vaccination -- for example most of the leading universities have gone to an every 3 year schedule (except for rabies, which is mandated by the state unless your vet writes an exemption letter). Vaccination has caused much damage to my girl, so she doesn't receive any more.
I do know that you'll have to be careful to make sure that your dog gets enough calcium -- most diets, unless they contain a significant amount of bone, require calcium supplementation.
Here are some resources, if you're interested:
acme nutrition board:
http://acmepet.petsmart.com/club/bboard/nutrition/index.html
K9 Nutrition List -- subscribe at the bottom of the page
http://www.doggiedietician.com/
Great resource: Home-Prepared Dog & Cat Diets, The Healthful Alternative by Strombeck -- you can purchase it several places, including www.dogwise.com -- it contains balanced recipes, but is also a wealth of nutrition information even if you don't use the diets.
vaccination survey
http://www.asr-svcs.dircon.co.uk/wwwchc/vac_rslt.htm
In Reply to: Re: Dog with Stomach Problems posted by MAI on September 08, 2001 at 18:45:41:
my guys have always brought grass up soon after eating it
along with bild so I don't know what it would detox. Just
looks like their way to purge since their paws won't fit.
They will use plastic from a bag that does the same thing or
mushrooms if there is nothing green around.
VF
In Reply to: the good news is... posted by LisaT on September 15, 2001 at 00:10:00:
I thought Pedigree was a pretty good food. I gave up on
Purina when I found a heavy metal shavig in it with my first
hound. Just shared some peperoni pizza with crushed red,
cayenne, and oregano on it. I give my guys a little
peperoni and mozzerella every day since I have a little
every day...... Forgot the Ol' Roy
VF
In Reply to: the good news is... posted by LisaT on September 15, 2001 at 00:10:00:
Lisa....thank you so much for those links!! i have been searching the web for some more sites on natural diets but haven't run across those yet.
i'm only getting my dogs the rabies vaccines as required by law. i just can't see treating them for something they will not get giving the environment they are in. we do know that Rush has an allergy to one type of grass that grows around here as he sneezes when he comes in contact with it. we don't have that type of grass in our yard but our neighbors do so he still has some problems with it.
the diet is going good still. he seems to have gained a little weight as his ribs are a little more padded but he's got a long way to go still.
In Reply to: the good news is... posted by LisaT on September 15, 2001 at 00:10:00:
Thanks, LisaT.
Namaste`
Walt
In Reply to: more good news posted by Maddie on September 16, 2001 at 11:50:20:
that wiping the dog down when coming in from indoors often helps with the grass contact allergy. Also, omega-3 fatty acids (I like ground flaxseeds, or Missing Link, or Nupro), and additional vitamin C very well may help with these allergies. If your dog isn't sensitive to Brewer's yeast, this can be a good source of B vitamins. All of these will help with environmental allergies.
There is an allergy program developed by a vet named Belfield. Here is an email I have on file that describes this -- the claim is that this program can "cure" environmental allergies. I don't believe it can cure, but I know it can help tremendously, although I think it should also contain flax.......I haven't used the program, but I know of several dog folks that say very good things about it.
Go to www.belfield.com
Click on Orthomolecular Specialties
Buy "Mega-C Plus" [Lisa note: this is a multivitamin with significant amounts of vitamin C]
Giver per instructions, EXCEPT, start lower than the
recommended amount and build up to the correct amount
over a one or two week period (to avoid possible
diarrhea from the vitamin C).
Also, buy BYS brand garlic/yeast tablets from
Cherrybrook pet catalog (1-800-524-0820) and give per
instructions (1 tablet per 10 pounds of body weight).
Belfield's program takes 5-7 weeks to strengthen the
dog's immune system. Your dog should be allergy-free
7 weeks after it is taking the full amount of
everything.
In Reply to: Re: the good news is... (Archive in Veterinarian Holistic.) posted by Walt Stoll on September 17, 2001 at 08:13:47:
In Reply to: Re: the good news is... posted by Vince F on September 15, 2001 at 06:07:35:
that most of it is cr*p -- and these foods that are full of corn and by-products are really providing very little nutrition, and contributing to all sorts of disease processes in our dogs. Can't tell you how many folks report DRAMATIC changes when their dogs are upgraded, or better yet, taken off of dog food completely.
In Reply to: I am of the opinion... posted by LisaT on September 18, 2001 at 02:49:47:
You know me. Feed them what they crave or works. They get
a little cayenne and crushed red because I eat it. They
love chili but would eat kibble if I tell them, no. I mash
the corn and beans since they don't chew and it would be
wasted going right though. They are eating bagles since I
am. They are always at my side when I eat and sometimes I
have a hard time sharing something that I really like but
figure if I like it they would also. Being so hard to train
i don't try to stop them from beging, just from hiting my
arm when I have peas on a fork. I sewar they know they will
fall on the floor and then it is theirs...
VF
In Reply to: I have heard..... posted by LisaT on September 18, 2001 at 02:34:48:
Thanks, LisaT.
Walt
In Reply to: I have heard..... posted by LisaT on September 18, 2001 at 02:34:48:
I have read quite a few recommendations on the brewer's yeast. I will give it a try as soon as I can get to the local natural health store. i think i will also add in a fish bonemeal based product, i don't recall the name but we used to give it to the dogs in the winter months. the dogs have now been on their new diet for about two weeks. rush's stomach seems to be handling the food well, he has gained a little more and is now at a slim, healthy weight and his coat is so silky and shiny now! it should quite imteresting to see what else happens in time if he's improved so much in such a short time. my big concern now is making sure they start to fatten up for winter in the next month or two, it looks like it's going to be a rough one here!
In Reply to: Re: Dog with Stomach Problems posted by Marie on September 08, 2001 at 00:21:23:
my dog every yr. at this time gets sick to his stomach, last yr. the dr. said he had toncil litis, is there anything I can do for him, without taking him to a vet? all it does is cost me money, and i'm on a fixed income, and they don't do anything for him.
In Reply to: Re: Dog with Stomach Problems posted by jody on October 07, 2001 at 18:01:18:
What do you mean by, Sick to his stomach, bringing up
yellowish green frothy bile ?? If that is the case see what
he might be eating or geting into. If something else,
explain.
VF
In Reply to: Re: Dog with Stomach Problems posted by jody on October 07, 2001 at 18:01:18:
since you mentioned tonsilitis, does the dog cough ?? I had
one with a chronic cough and the vets couldn't cure it and
all it took was giving distilled water for 1 day. When I
suspected the water I cruedly filtered it pouring tap water
through charcoal and the cough had cut in half. The
infection spread to hie ear the next day but I cured that
with some antibiotic cream in mineral oil and salt water.
VF
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